Actions that will work; brass availability,factory ammo,bullets that work,etc.?

Seems like a logical step over the 375H&H and according to what I hear and read (all I know about it,really),does so with low pressures and moderate recoil.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks!

You will need an action made for the RUM case, a Winchester Model 70 or Rem 700 in 300RUM would be the perfect donor, as would a CZ 500 in 375 H&H. Any H&H length action would work, but the RUM actions already have the feed rails opened up and are easier to convert. The CZ 550 is simply so massive that little internal modification will be needed; that said, you'll need a gunsmith who understands how to make a big bore feed.

Hornady has factory brass and the reports I have heard are that it is excellent; their bullets have received good reviews as well, however Woodleigh softs and solids seem to be the winners in the .404 category.

Hornday either has, or will be producing, factory ammunition.

You can handload any of the 416's to match the 404 in terms of pressure and velocity/recoil, but you can never handload a 416 to match the cool factor of the 404. That huge sloping case gets'em every time

I want one bad to go with my 450/400 Ruger #1 as the Jeffrey was designed to duplicate the 450/400 in a bolt action.

Oregon: Thanks.So it seems a pre 64 M70 action for the 300H&H should work OK? Glad that Hornady has brass as opposed to some other more exotic source.

I know a 416 of some type will work,but I suspect I want the 404...gun nut thing

I think I have probably used the 404 more than anyone else around here..I have built a dozen or so of them for myself and ended up selling all of them..Its a wonderfull cartridge with a world of nostalgia behind it..I do recommend a Mauser Mod. 20 big action or one of its counterparts as opposed to a long action 98 Mauser conversion or a Mod. 70...Todays the most proper action a available is the new control feed Win M-70 in the RUM calibers that are built around the 404 case, they work well indeed and are second only to a full size Mauser. I have never been satisfied with the CZ in 404s...With 95 grs. of IMR-4831 you can get 2600 FPS plus depending on barrel length, you don't have to settle on those old 404 velocities of 2100 FPS..I loaded all mine with 93 grs. for a mild pressure and over 2400 FPS..that is a buffalo and elephant gun. I have probably shot around 30 or 40 buffalo with the 404 Jefferys, and a world of plainsgame. It can be much more gun than the 450-400 by about 500 FPS if you wish..I will say it kills much better at 2400 FPS than it does at 2000 FPS and the effect on buffalo is apparant to the eye and at 2600 FPS, the big bulls shudder at the shot..also at 2600 FPS I shudder at the shot.:) and Jim Brockman cussed me for lending him those fast loads to test his rifle, that made my day!

All this said, the 416 Rem or 416 Ruger is just as good and a hell of a lot cheaper to build or purchase in a new rifle, and I suspect Ruger will be the first .404 company in years with the 404 Ruger thats on the drawing board, and a cinch to put together on a std. Mauser, FN, or M-70..I have built two of them so far.

Bob, I've gotten interested in the 404 and have a No. 1H chambered for it. It is a very interesting classical rifle, but like you, I see the 404 Rimless NE as a magazine rifle round. I found a M-70 Classic (SS), now waiting for conversion, as I think that's the optimal modern starting point. The feed rails and follower are already optimized for the Jeffery case and the bolt face is very close, so all that will save some work.

Comments are based on having loaded the cartridge with 400 grain bullets to the 2300 fps range and 450 grain Woodleigh solids to the 2200+ range, which is a significant improvement over the 2125 fps/400 grain MV original specs that made the round's reputation as a DG (elephant) cartridge. Although I believe Ray's assertions about 2600 fps MV, it'll come at a very significant cost in recoil - that's 416 Wby territory - and probably represents lots of KE expended on the off side of just about anything short of body shots on ele.

The 404 Jeffery Hornady brass I've gotten seems uniform and, if it's manufactured to the same specs as the 375 & 416 Ruger cases (which I've reloaded many times in the 404-375 Ruger at these same MVs with the .423" diameter bullets), should prove strong and last many reloads. I haven't shot the 404 Hornady Jeff cases yet, so can't comment on their durability specifically.

In a reasonable weight rifle (9 - 10 lbs) recoil becomes very noticeable in the 404s above 2300 fps IME. This round's forte is balance - significant power and moderate recoil in a trim and lively rifle IMO. All the nostalgia of the 375 H&H and ample power for anything to boot. Carpet diem, Bob, go for it!

When Ruger introduced their then new MkII Magnum Rifle, it was availiable in 404 Jeff. Don't think they sold many of them. E

Hi Bob,

I had a Win classic 300 RUM model 70 built. My smith had to open the bolt face a tad but other than that it was a rebarrel.

If you have a good smith to work with a pre-64 would make a nice rifle.

I think I messaged you a picture of my 404. The 300 RUM makes a nice conversion.

I already had a 375 H&H so I wanted something a little bigger.

Go for it.

Roger

My M70 404 Jeffery

When Photo bucket comes back on line.I'll send pictures of a Mauser A-type original...I love the caliber,one tip,only use Mag primers,it take a good spark to make it work right...

This is a Walter Locke & co 404 jeffery Mauser with a 26 inch barrel. I think the rifles were actually built by Jeffery for Locke.

This particular rifle sold for $2850 earlier this year at auction.

I bet this rifle has some stories to tell.

Roger: Oohh....that is sweet! Thanks for the pics! Guys, thanks to all for the responses,all very educational.....

Ray, I gotta keep recoil a bit under control....at my age I suffer few physical ailments but don't handle a bunch of recoil like I used to...shoulder issues are cropping up and I still shoot about anything I want,but enjoy hard kicking rifles less than I used to.....I have little experience with anything over 375 but handle that nicely.Unfortunately no one I know back here runs a 404 or similar rifle so I have no way to try one in advance.....

I would stay at the velocitiy levels Wildcatter recommends....just to keep things manageable.

Now that I have this good advice I am mad at myself for passing on a Winston Elrod rifle in 404 on the Classic action...it was a very nice rifle that I almost bought...but did not..

Roger that rifle looks perfect!

My 450/400 with a 400gr Woodleigh at 2050fps out of my iron sighted Ruger #1 is very manageable; I fitted the stock with a 1" red Pachmayr decelerator that increased the LOP to 14".

I find that gun more pleasant to shoot than a 338 Win Mag I have that weighs the same; it really is a big, slow shove, unlike some big bores which are big, slow kicks in the a**!!

Don't feel too bad I passed up an Al Biesen 404 Jeff at a very reasonable price before I knew enough about the cartridge. Hard earned lessons ...

Wildcatter:...that hurts!

This is a Charles A.Hayer of Nairobi 1924 Mauser A-type sporter with a G&H side mount.

After a couple of false starts I am having a 404 Jeffery built, hopefully it will be complete by July 2010.
Here is what I am having built.

Granite Mountain Standard Mag. Action, 23-24" Krieger barrel w/intergal quarter ribb, one standing and one folding front sight, barrel band, 4 down in mag., most likely pivot mounts, probably going to have the action color cased, cross bolts, etc in a Turkish walnut blank I bought a few years back.

Ralph Martini is building the rifle and I am really looking forward to having one of Ralph rifles.

Both Hornady and Norma make brass not sure if other sources available. The Hornady is more reasonably priced and available from most reloading sources such as Graf and Sons, Midway, etc. Hornady and Norma both produce ammo not sure who else. As far as bullets are concerned there are a few more choices Barnes, North Fork, Hornady, Swift, Woodleigh, GS custom, others?. Redding, RCBS make dies, and possibly Hornady, I had Lee make me a factory crimp die. I am looking forward to working up load for this rifle. Most likely going to see if I can target 2400-2500 fps with 380-400 grain bullets, I think that will be my substitute for a 375 H&H.

You can go to Graf and Sons and Midway and see what if available. RWS may produce ammo but not sure. Hornady is really doing us all a service by producing some Big Bore components and ammo.

Best of luck in your pursuit!

JJS: Thanks for the info.Your GMA rifle sounds fabulous!

I bought a 404 from Wayne at AHR, Inc. It is based on a CZ action. It shots 400 Gr. TSX at 2450 FPS. I also used the 320 Gr. GS Customs in Masailand this year. They are shooting @ 2700 fps. They performed great on Buffalo. My friend used the 400 Gr TSX load in his rifle for LDE and Savana buffalo and they also performed well.

I am going to try the 380 Gr. NorthForks if I use it for another Buffalo hunt.

I use F215M primers, Norma Brass, I had Lee make a guide for the Zip trimmers. Reloading Die's where expensive when i bought them, around $250 for RCBS. Now I see on midways sight Hornady has dies for $80 and the RCBS are down to $130.00. Midway also had some one time hornady 400gr softs blemished bulk bullets for about .50 each for practice.

Either way i really like the 404.

Man oh man Roger, I would have run that bid sky high on that rifle had I been there, $2800 is absolutly criminal for that gun..I have seen less bring $5500 or more.

Wildcatter is spot on when he says he thinks my 2600 FPS load in the .404 would serve one with excess recoil, and that is only putting it mildly..It will get your attention, basically it an only be described as hanieous, but safe as to pressure...

Keep in mind with the .404 Jefferys has about the same powder capacity as the 416 Rigby which is nothing more than a 416 Weatherby without a belt..the 404 will easily come within 100 FPS of the Rigby or Weatherby if you handload it. With modern powders, specifically IMR-4831, the 404 is the wonder of wonders..

I have mostly used the GS Customs 350 gr.(?) HPs, Northforks 370 gr. softs and their fantastic Cup Point bullets; I also field tested the 450 gr. Woodleigh softs and solids on buffalo and quite a number of them btw.. You would be hard pressed to beat those big Woodleighs with any bullet..I would give each of these mentioned bullets a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10.

FWIW, a 400 grain bullet at 2375 fps produces 5000 ft-lbs energy. that's a significant increase from the original 404 Jeffery load (400 grain @ 2125 fps, KE ~ 4000 ft-labs). Without pushing the recoil envelope to the punishing range 5K ft-lbs is big-bore NE (450-470 class) terminal ballistic performance.

The 400 Swift AFs and the 400 Barnes Banded Solids can be made to shoot close to same POI - although it may take a bit of experimenting - and seem to work well on African game at ~2350 fps, based on my very limited experience.

landandtimber: Thanks for the info and that is a great rifle!Does NF make two weights of bullets? 400 and 380 gr?

This seems like a really neat cartridge with a lot of flexibility due to lots of powder capacity......

Oregon: Good article in the G&A 2010 Buyers Guide by Boddington on the 400 Jeffrey 3" in the Ruger #1...pretty neat stuff!Hats off to Hornady and Ruger for bring back the rifle and cartridges.

landandtimber: Thanks for the info and that is a great rifle!Does NF make two weights of bullets? 400 and 380 gr?


Only 380 as far as I know.

OK thanks.

sorry Northfork has for the 404 340 gr. softs, 380 gr softs, and 380 gr. CPS and FNSolids

Land: Thanks once again.....

I never know what weight my North Forks are because I was testing a lot of different weights for North Fork early on..and Mike was working with me on the cup points..I have some 370 gr. softs and they must have been some of the experimental stuff..they worked real well. Good to be refreshed on what Mike settled on or the new owners, whoever! Darn good big game bullets for sure.

Ray what is the deal and advantage to the Cup point solids? I have been using the GS Custom FN Flat nose solids, and they work fine on buffalo.

Working a load for a new 375 for next year. Was going to try NF 300 gr. SS and CPS.

For Jim Corbett, the 450/400 did very well on tigers. I would think the .404, with about 200 FPS more velocity would do just as well or better.

John Taylor liked it, also, the 450/400.

Ray

I gurantee you I would have jumped on that if I would have seen it. Although I did not bid on a recent double 375 H&H Fanzoi with a 20 guage barrel. This rifle was coin silver, rose and scroll engraved built in the late 60's.

I do have a good excuse though, I have 2 custom magnum mausers and a model 70 due in about 3 months. Sometimes you just have to put the breaks on this addiction. I did want a 375 flanged, though this gun was well worth the auction price of 5000.00 it went for.

When your retired you have time to look for these kinds of things lol.

Cheers,
Roger D.

Great looking rifle.

Here's an interesting classic 404 magazine rifle by an old line American firm

http://www.hallowellco.com/hoffman_404.htm

Landandtimber,
I also have used the GS Customs flat nose solids and they are an excellent solid..The GS Customs HVHP is also an outstanding buffalo bullet...

But to answer your question what I like about the cup point is that it expands just a little bit, but that little bit is very effective on all game, and it still penetrates as much as most solids do..I have recovered about 7 of them, and that required a lot of buffalo to get that many as they mostly leave an exit hole..The 40 clibers expand to 50 or 55. the .470 expands to 65 or 70..I can use one bullet for anything I want to shoot..I have shot a lot of plainsgame with them and they work great..I shot two Impala for meat one day and later that same day shot a nice buffalo. I really like them. I have those seven bullets photographed and if you would like to see them send me your email address..I can't post the pictures here, thats beyond my computer ig..

Wildcatter:....man that Hoffman is nice!

Bob, strictly window shopping, but always good to see rifles from our Golden Era still out there. It probably has some interesting stories to tell.

Agreed....did you see that Maurice Ottmar 404 in Guns International Custom rifles?.......wish I had $10k hanging around doing nothing.......

Hi Bob

Another easy on the shoulder big-bore is the 10.75X68. They are a dream to shoot and make real big holes. I see them pop up for sale once and a while at reasonable prices. RWS was probably the last Commercial company to load them. Most are loaded with 347gr. bullets. They built some nice one's on various Mauser actions. I owned a Pre-war Sauer double rifle in this cartridge and it was the most accurate double I probably ever owned, shouldn't of sold it it. Just food for thought, but you can't go wrong with a 404 !!

Dino

Dino: Thanks for that info...I knew nothing of that cartridge.

400 Holland and Holland is a ballistic twin, brass made by Qual cartridge or easily from 375 H&H. Uses easily found .411 bullets. Easy to load, very accurate and will crush anything you wish to.

My custom 700 (can't afford a "real" H&H) and the cartridge on far right is 400 with 400 gr Woodleigh (what H&H loads them with).

Oldman: Yes I have read about the 400H&H;interesting cartridge....from what I have read,seems they went to great effort to get it right. Thanks!

Old thread and a good one that needs to be bumped up to current.

Bob,

Need an update on this project.

You've given me the .404 J bug...

DF

I am also very interested in the .404J and I am happy to see the revival over the past two decades of really useful, traditional rounds like this and the superb 9.3x62 Bock. I wish that I had been able to obtain a pair of Brno ZG-47 rifles in 9.3 and a reliable source of good components when I first began working in BC's wilderness as a entry-level BCFS staffer and then as a "Lookoutman", a job I loved more than any other I have done.

These two rounds and the 7x64, .270 Win., .280Rem. impress me as being about "perfect" for any big game hunting or wilderness protection work one might ever do and I enjoy all posts here relating to them.

Bob, my friend, have you obtained a .404 and, if so, what is it? My first choice on today's market would be one of Wayne's rifles from AHR and I may yet mortgage my battered soul and buy one. I can tell you that the dealings I have had with him as well as those by serious "gunnut" friends of mine, make me absolutely confident in buying and using a rifle from him.

Glad to see this old thread revived.

FWIW, I've found 375 RUM cases reformed in a 404J sizing die to be a practical way to source practice brass. These are getting harder (impossible?) to find, but I lay in a supply several years ago and still use them. 404J basic cases also turn up form time to time and are a good investment.

For the OP: Bob, did you ever get that 404J built?

Bob must be out and about, away from his computer. I sent him a PM, letting him know this site has been re-activated. He hasn't read or answered the PM and hasn't posted on this site.

He'll probably surface shortly. I'm interested in what he finally did regarding his .404 J. itch.

DF

DF: I never did do a 404J,but I think it's a good idea.

At the time of this thread, there was a wonderful 404J built on a M70 by Winsron Elrod. I handled the rifle at Cabela's ain Scarborough. Nyrifleman (Doug) on here was looking at it as well.That was why I asked about the cartridge.

I did not buy it,and far as I know neither did Doug....I go back and forth on anything over 375....
Not really something I have any need for; but I do think the 404 is a neat cartridge!

JB writes that if one is truly practical he'll get a .416 Rem or stay with the .375 H&H.

That's what he says and it makes perfect sense. He's a Loony, however, just like us, and I don't how "practical" he would/could be starting from scratch, shopping for a big rifle. I think he'd end up with another .416 Rigby or something similar.

I just like the .404 J. I had my hunting partner ready to go halves on one I found. Then, I sobered up and took a deep breath. It may be a long time before we go to Africa. And we already have more than adequate firepower for anything that walks on the North American continent.

So, I'm going to wait. If I run across a used M-70 in a RUM caliber, I may pick it up as a donor for a future build. Time is on my side, but of course, that's logical thinking. I'm just not too sure about the effects of time on the sanity of a Loony...

DF

Actually, I have come real close to buying a .450/.400 3" double a couple-three times, which is basically the rimmed equivalent of the .404. But each time I figured the price of the double would pay for another safari, a rare practical thought.

Did own one of the Ruger No. 1 .450/.400's for a while, but never took it hunting. Guess I'm just a .416 Rigby guy!

Gotta be careful with those "practical" thoughts...

Could taint your image...

DF


edited for spelling.

MD, Your old No. 1 is safe and in good hands. Don't be too practical and go for the 404J - nostalgia and all, you know! We're all loonies still.

That's a fact-- they are charming, and they do work just fine. I shot the one I had with 400-gr bullets, and they ran about 2300 fps. I'm quite sure that's very effective, though some are a touch faster. I just don't think that is needed.

Given that nature of our hunting, I think you ought to take whatever you want, within reason. .404 Jeffery, I'm quite certain, works just fine. .404 Ruger will work just fine too, I'm certain .

Dennis

That's what I did... bought a .300 RUM for a donor after I shoot out the factory tube. Problem is, I have been picking up new rifles so fast I haven't had a chance to shoot it!

Here is my 404J built on FN Mauser standard action, holds 4 down.

Banded rear sight and front swivel.


Possibly a Mahillion build. Pics of some proof marks, engraving.

Built mine on a 50's FN Colombian ex mill.


400gn Woodleigh 84gn H4350 (ADI2209) 2300fps +
All shots at 55 yds with aperture sights Some targets showing off centre loads were in the initial testing and were regulated after loads established.



350gn HT cast bullet 87gn H4350 (ADI 2209) 2415fps



350gn cast bullet 63gn H4350 (ADI2209) 1900fps



Von Gruff.

VG, you've built the epitome of the 404J - classically restrained elegance and simplicity. And a hammer to boot. Kudos!

BTW plan to try your load in my No. 1.

Wildcatter did not build one; not sure I want one....but here's one I would like to have! This would make me a 404 fan in a hurry


Category - Custom Rifles African Dangerous Game Safari Magazine Rifles
Guns International #: 100242052

Lister Inventory #: 2096
George Hoenig Custom 70
Description:
George Hoenig custom Model 70 Ser. No. 350501 .404 Jeffery- 25" barrel with matted quarter rib and adjustable express sight and hinged front sight shroud. Barrel band swivel and trap door grip cap. Mounted with a 3X9 Swarovski scope. Very accurate rifle by a classic master. Wt. 10 lbs. 12 ozs. Ready for Africa!

Sorry can't get the pics up.But go over there and take a peek.

Sorry I did not see your post. I was in NYC last week.

WOW! Since you can't take it with you, take a look at the other Hoenig stocked 404J (how often do you see 2 at once?) on GI:

Guns International #: 100248161
Lister Inventory #: 2116
W J Jeffery .404
Description:
W J Jeffery barrel on a Mauser single square bridge action Jeffery No. 28116. .404 Jeffery- 25" barrel with quarter rib and express sights. QD scope mounts with 3X leupold and trap door grip cap. Stocked by George Hoenig with beautiful piece of fiddleback wood. A classic big rifle and ready for Africa!

Think I'd be happy with either - though I'd favor the 3x Leupold for this work - when walking the African plain one last time! The stuff dreams are made of.

Wildcatter I saw the Mauser as well...equally fabulous..I mean I sorta doubt he made very many 404J's....

Spooky thing is RinB on here has actually seen/held the M70....he knows GH and says it's a fabulous rifle.

Good grief! What rifles!

Don't think many other than the bespoke London trade made too many 404Js - part of the allure.

I rcall, maybe 25 years ago,a Cogswell&Harrison Mauser 404J at my local gun shop hangout.....these were a working class London gun, I guess.Minty clean....Frankly, I did not know what it was....but the price was well below a grand,so I don't think anyone else knew either.

When I think of 404J's,that rifle comes to mind.....and the idiotic decision not to buy it....

Here's a .404 J. Cogswell and Harrison built on an Enfield action. Got the photo on line.

What's your thoughts on using a 1917 Enfield? Sometime one can find a sporterized Enfield with a lot of the expensive work already done and that crooked bolt handle would have to go. The follower and rails would need work to handle the fatter .404 J. round.

Enfields have a big, deep box mag. and often when they're customized, the floorplate/box is cut and welded to eliminate the drop. For a .404 J. I think you'd want to keep the deep, drop type mag.

DF

i think the 1917 makes a heavy 30-06(or 338-06 in the case of the one in my safe) but would be great for a bigger round.....infact mine will wind up as something bigger as i dont like carrying a 9 pound rifle around anymore for something like a 338-06....

The mistakes of our youths would fill a book. Well, live and hopefully learn. But you never know when the next right rifle/wrong choice situation will come along. No wonder we're loony.

DF: We should all be lucky enugh to own what Tom Burgess could do to an Enfield....

I never did buy that rifle Bob. I have a .375 H&H on a Dakota 76, and if I decide to build another big bore I'll likely go JBs way of thinking and do a .416 Rem M-70 in a McMillan.

I have been very tempted from time to time though.

http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/RiflesPage40.htm

I need to be REAL careful when I read threads like this one....

I clicked on that link. Super .404 J., and not a bad price for what you get.

DF

Yeah. You're right. Found this on line, with the caption, "Ultimate Enfield" by Burgess. I need a .404 Jeffery that looks just like that...

DF

That looks similar to the Montana Rifle and the CZ. I'm pretty sure you can get a Montana in .404 Jeffery for about half, but it won't be XXX Walnut.

good looking rifle and all but why start with a 1917 if your gonna change it that far? if i want a gun thats gonna look like that might as well start with a Winchester....

DF: That is nice!A beauty! You don't see them every day! Where is that one listed? Is it a 404?

Rattler, there are things you can do to an Enfield that you can't with a M70....a 404 may not be one of them, but for certain cartridges the bigger action was pretty much all they had to work with, true magnum Mausers being sorta scarce.It would just handle larger cartridges better than an M70. Back when Burgess did work like that,there was not the availability of actions that there are today for the bigger cases, so people remodeled Enfields.

About 5 minutes spent with Burgess metal work and you will not be wondering "why".If he were alive today, he would still rank among the best.





Doug: We both screwed the pooch on that Winston Elrod 404J...we ain't too bright. I handled it at Cabela's;it had some weight, but when you threw it to your shoulder it went completely "neutral",like many nicely stocked customs.It would be really hard to replace that rifle for what they were asking.



I just got an interesting email from a prominent custom rifle builder who read this thread; about a wildcat that has made the rounds over on AR:turns out this builder was working with it quite awhile back,and its a 375H&H round necked up...don't know all details but looks like the taper is left in the case,will work through a pre 64, or Classic M70, or Rem 700 375H&H action,and give a 400 gr bullet 2150-2200 fps with little to no modifications to the rails for function/feeding which the H&H round is noted for anyway.....Sounds pretty nifty....Mmmm

if you were going to a 505 i could understand.....not so sure on the 404.....guess im just a fan of the 1917 more or less as it sits so it makes me hard to see the point of turning it into a Winchester....not the quality of the metalwork im questioning, im sure its top notch and worth every penny, its the styling that i personally see no point in....

rattler yes I understand.Still is a swell hunk of metal though.....

I found a '50's vintage Weatherby .300, built on an Enfield action. The rear receiver bridge was milled for a Beuhler adjustable base, and wouldn't fit std. bases. It had aftermarket trigger, nice bolt handle alteration, a beautiful blue job and a vintage Balfor scope, the one with no internal adjustments. They are asking $550. If any of you guys are interested, I'll send photos and the number of the gunshop. It's way too uphill for this project.

I can get a Montana barreled action in .404 J for $1,100 blue, $1,300 SS. Sights would be extra.

I have a lead on a M-70 in .300 RUM with Nikon Bushmaster scope for $750. I don't what the scope would bring on Ebay, as I wouldn't keep it. A .404 barrel would be another $500 fitted.

With a M-70/clone, I'm thinking about a McM Express stock for $450 or so from Rick. I can do the bedding myself.

Thoughts...

DF

DF- From a purely economic standpoint, the MRC bbld action seems like the way to go. However, smiths around here don't like them much claiming they are very rough and need quite a bit of work to make serviceable. Which translated into $$. Myself, I don't like the bolt handles or bottom metal on mod 70's/MRC's, so would have to do something different there too, all adding up. I'm trying to build a 416 Ruger myself, and would like to use a Mod 70, but these issues keep creeping up.

Sold my Super Express M-70 .375 H&H, bought the Win SS M-70 .300 RUM, donor gun, for $700 plus $25 shipping. Gun and scope look to be near mint.

By the time I sell the scope, rings, bases, Tupperware stock, and take off barrel, the action should be less than $400. The gun looks almost new and I would bet the barrel is mint. Will check it with the Hawkeye borescope and if it's as good as I think it is, I'll offer it on the Wire Classifieds.

I'm looking for a SS .423" barrel. Someone mentioned Walther and they do list .404 barrels with 14 twist. Any experience with them or with .404 J. barrels in general?

DF

The MRC barreled action in SS is $1,300, the blue, CM version, $1,100. They want another $800 to do NECG express pop up rear sight, banded front sight and barrel band sling stud. All equipped, you're looking at $2,100 just for their SS Safari barreled action.

I believe I can build a very similar set up for less, without giving up quality. I'm looking at $1,200-$1,300 with sights for the barreled action, plus $450 for a McM Express stock from Rick. Doing the bedding myself, $1,600-$1,800 all up. MRC's completed rifle with synthetic stock is $3,700. And I'd rather have the McM Express than their Pendelton synthetic.

With a Walther barrel, or equivalent, a good Steelbed job by me in a McM Express stock, I think mine would run with theirs, may give it a real chase. And, I think it would look as good. The McM Express stock, IMHO, better looking than their stock.

IMHO, of course.

DF

Dirtfarmer.....I have a Walther barrel on my 9.3x62. This is only the second rifle that I've had done. This is also the 1st Walther barrel. I happen to like it quite a bit. It seems quite smooth and shoots nice tight 3 shot clover leaf groups. When I get the parts for my .375, I'll probably use another Walther in the H&H contour.

PacNor is 14 weeks out. Walther is 6 weeks out.

Some gunsmiths complain about Walther barrels being hard on reamers. Their stainless LW50 steel is reportedly pretty tough.

I'm ordering an LW50 SS Walther #1450 contour (about 3.5#), 23", chambered for .404 J, threaded for a Std. CRF M-70 with sporting crown for $477.

The Walther tech guy told me that the new FN M-70's have metric threads. My gun is pre-FN with the old style M-70 trigger.

By having Walther do the chambering, the only thing my gunsmith needs to do is tweak the shoulder and adjust head space, which he'll do for <$50.

DF

I do like the Mcmillan handles. I think brown or mcwoody w/ a red pad is skookum. But..............IMO the forends are too long. That's the only thing holding me back and pushing me toward wood. Even though wood is gonna be quite a bit more expensive.

Wood, especially high quality wood, is more attractive and more in line with the classic, vintage English Express rifles. Good quality synthetic is very functional, however, and much less expensive.

I had a nice conversation with D'Arcy Echols. He was returning my call requesting info on his Legend stock. He took his time and we had quite a discussion.

I concluded, with his help, that maybe I don't need express sights. He and I agreed that as our eyes age (he's younger than I am) iron sights become less useful. We older dudes have to depend more on the right optics.

I'm thinking about using the Echols Legand stock and a slick SS barrel. That will save around $4-500 without giving up a lot, other than style points.

DF

DF: Good move...you will like D'Arcy's stock.

I like the way they look. I saw the 9.3 that Phil built on a M-70 action, using a Legend stock.

At first, I was thinking the Legend was a bit straight for iron sights. D'Arcy told me it was designed for scopes, but one could still use tall iron sights.

By going without iron sights, the Legend is back on top of the list. It will take more work, as the bolt handle and loading port recesses aren't cut, but that shouldn't take long to do. Also, I think I'll have to cut the stock and mount a Decelerator, but I can do that. And, I'll have to paint the finished work, but I can do that, too.

The McM Express comes with a lot of that work already done and is a very nice stock. IMHO, the Legend has sleeker lines and to me, it's worth the extra effort.

DF

Gunner500 sold me a very nice walnut stock, all ready to go for the M-70 action. I'm going with walnut for the time being.

Will post photos when I get it.

DF

Like others...I love this thread - thanks for reposting it.

On a weekly basis, I go back & forth between the idea of building a 404j vs a 416 ruger. Thankfully, I have no trip looming that requires a decision, etc....but all the ideas in the recent posts of this thread are really helpful!

I went the cheapskate route and am very pleased. Got theM70 ultramag donor, had it rebored for 404 Jeff, had bolt face opened just a bit, picked up a new takeoff Win safari express model stock. Rebedded it,shoots great and looks good. Just have to put on Necg express sight,barrel band and banded front sight and it will be ready to go.Not counting sights I have about 1,000 into it.Fun to shoot and weighs in at a bit over 9 lbs. with Leupold on it.Not a fancy custom by a long shot but it suits my budget.I actually thought it was great to shoot with the original Win plastic stock, weighed in at a bit over 8 lbs. But I love wood. Get one!

Rick from NH

That's the route I'll likely take, except for a new tube rather than a rebore. I plan to shoot the rifling out of my .300 RUM before I convert it.

That's the route I took when the throat was gone on my 416 Rigby, made a fine and very cost effective 505 Gibbs.

Gunner

I only hope I'm tough enough to shoot the throat out of my CZ .416!

LOL, big charges of H-4350 and the 350 gn Speer, Barnes X, and TSX's didn't take long.

Gunner

I have been shopping for a M70 donor in CRF and the pickings are slim...certainly nothing that allow for a 1k build (as you have) once all the goodies are added. Sounds like you found a great donor at a great price!

Hi,

I have been offered a .404 Jeffery (Jeffery make) for around $ 2200. Will this be a useful buy keeping in mind the fact that modern loadings of this cartridge are not recommended for use in older rifles? The price seems excessive for what may prove to be a wall hanging only.

Regards.

You will need to provide a few more specifics as to what it actually is...but the original jeffery mfg should be a good quality gun that can and should be used today.

You would be hard-pressed to find a 404J less than 2k...shop the online sites to see for yourself, but that could be a fair price

Hi Setch,

Thanks for for your views. The price quoted is $ 2400 but I am hoping it will come down a bit. I agree that it is a fair price by international standards. I was rather confused by some reviews on the net saying that modern ammunition is slightly bigger than the original in terms of bullet diameter and should not be used in older rifles.

I have yet to see the rifle, which is in a different state and I will have to travel quite a bit to see it. Since it is a Jeffery made rifle it is quite attractive an offer. There being no hunting in India the rifle is a collectors piece only unless I go on safari in Africa.

Since import of weapons into India was effectively stopped in India in 1984, prices, especially of handguns, is quite high.

Regards.

Progress report.

I got the Super Grade stock from Gunner500 fitted to the .300 RUM donor gun. The .404J barrel is done and will be shipped from Walther to Jim Kobe. The Super Grade stock was inletted for one piece bottom metal, the Stainless Classic has two piece bottom metal. I could have made it work with a spacer and Acraglas Gel, but went ahead and got Williams one piece bottom metal from Brownells. I'm glad I did. It's a very well made unit and will add class to the gun.

DF












And here are a couple of bad boys we'll be shooting.

At the expense of exposing my ignorance, what are the projectiles on the bottom of the pic and how are they used?


.

Top bullets are Hornady Dangerous Game Solids, DGS, 400 gr.

Bottom is Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized 400 gr. Solids.

Hydrostatically Stabilized refers to the extrusion process and manufacturing process. The cup reportedly "cores" tissue and the pressure ring resists deflection and promotes deep, straight line penetration.

I've not shot anything yet with one of these. I've made up dummies for my gunsmith to adjust feeding from the mag. I figure if he can make these things feed smooth, everything else should be a breeze.

DF

Hi,

I just saw the Kynoch website which mentions that they manufacture cartridges suitable for use in older rifles. This sets at rest any doubts I had about buying an older Jeffery made rifle in .404 Jeffery.

Regards.

I described the stock as "Super Grade" based on it being inletted for one piece bottom metal. I recently saw a Super Grade stock which has different sling swivel studs and a fore end tip.

So, I don't think this stock is a Super Grade. Not sure actually what it is, as it seems to be a bump up in grade from the standard M-70 with two piece bottom metal. My understanding was one piece bottom metal were on the higher grades.

Any help with the correct ID on this stock would be appreciated.

DF

That looks outstanding DF, and even if ya didnt have a custom project in the works, that barreled action sitting in that stock is very nice.

I happen to think stainless and walnut are a very attractive combination.

And as dense as that stock is, I knew it would make you a near bullet-proof handle for your Big Bore.

I am already regretting not building another 458 Win Mag. on that stock. LOL

Gunner

Thanks, Gunner.

I like the way the blue Oberndorf style Williams bottom metal looks on the SS M-70. I like the larger trigger guard and the way the trigger is positioned near the rear of the trigger guard. I'm even getting used to the mixed blue and stainless look.

I have NECG SS hex head action screws back ordered at Brownells. I think they'll look good, too.

Can't wait to get the barrel fitted and pop a few caps.

I've shot a Browning Safari .458 Mag. and a Merkel .500 NE. Both had a good push, but not teeth rattling. I hope this one performs along those lines.

DF

Your most welcome DF.

And it will be a very polite push on recoil, worked up the loads for my Bud's 404J and was pleasantly surprised at the well mannered cartridge.

Gunner

I think this one is going to come in at 9.5# or so, all up.

I sold a M-70 in .375 H&H when I started on this project. That thing was 10.5#'s with scope and rings. It seemed too barrel heavy and instead of spending money working on it, I got my money out and started over. I'll have a bit more in the .404J, with the Williams bottom metal. I'm guessing around $1,400 after I sell the donor gun take off parts.

I have SS Talley bases ordered, the front, an extension base. Talley has a 25X701 base that extends about 1/8" over the rear of the front ring and a 25XX701 that extends about 1/4". I went with the SS 258X701 which uses 8x40 mounting screws. I'll have Jim Kobe drill and tap for the 8x40's when he does the barrel work.

DF

Soundin' good Sir, and I have came to appreciate the 8-40's over the years.

Gunner

Fantastic job on sealing and staining that checkering to your liking to DF, very nice.

Gunner

Thanks.


.

9.5 lbs should make for a sweet shooting 404.

Gunner,

You must really like those big boomers. I wonder how many .416 Rigby guns have been shot enough to wear out a throat...

Most used big guns have pristine barrels...

DF

LOL DF, I been training for Africa better than 30 years now. LOL

Lots of timed drills with near 416 Weatherby loaded ammo will do the job, IIRC is was a bit less than 800 rounds.

Gunner

Oh, and Yessir i do like the Big Bores, heck my light rifle before I joined up here at the fire, was a SG Winchester in 300 Win Mag, 10+ all up, and firing 200 gn Partitions at 3000 fps at everything, even WT deer

Gunner

You my kinda man...

DF

YEAH, it's all easy when your kinda Thick-Headed and all. LOL

Gunner

I believe the stock was from a run Win made for their psuedo-custom shop guns some time back. CDNN was selling them a bit ago as I picked one up for a potential project. Very nice stick of wood for sure. Seems I gave $100 for it. The only thing I do not like is the look of the single-sided crossbolt.

DF LOL, I was fondling that old 416 Rigby yesterday afternoon, which is now a rechambered/rerifled 505 Gibbs and noticed I had rubbed a goodly bit of bluing off the steel grip cap hanging on to that shoulder pounding beast over the years.

Saw that shiny steel and immediately thought of you. LOL

Gunner

Using the PacNor barrel contour chart and barrel weight calculator, I estimated a weight of the Stainless Classic factory barrel, which is 26" long, .590" at the muzzle and .795", six inches from the action, at 3# 3 oz. I know PacNor's contours are a bit heavier than most, but I used this as a best guess.

The #1450 Walther contour with .700" muzzle diameter and .875" at 7" is close to a PacNor #5. But, with the .423" bore, a lot of metal is gone and the weights are a bit light.

If I'm figuring right, weight of new barrel at 23" is 3# 7.8oz, at 24", 3# 9.4oz, at 25", 3# 10.4oz, at 26", 3# 11.8oz.

The gun, in your stock with 1.5-5x20 Leupy in Leupy high rings and bases, comes in at 9# 1.4oz. I'm shooting for 9# 8oz all up.

My numbers for overall wt. with 1.5-5x20 as mounted: 9# 1.8oz at 23", 9# 3.4oz at 24", 9# 4.4oz at 25", 9# 5.80z at 26". None are 9# 8oz. If I use a VX-6 1-6x24 instead of the 1.5-5x20, I add 4.9 oz, (14.6 oz vs. 9.7 oz.). With the VX-6 in Talley QD's, at 24", I'd be 9# 8.3 oz.

Looks like I may need a bit more barrel than my original 23" and a bigger scope to make it to target wt. Hopefully my numbers are a bit high on the factory take off barrel. If so, we're OK.

BTW, the VX-6 1-6x24 is a LOT more scope than the Vari-X III 1.5-5x20. Costs a bunch more, too...

Your thoughts.

Robert

Yessir, the V-6's are beautiful creatures, I dont know your height, but I am 6' 2 1/2" in my socks, I absolutely love 25" barrels on the heavier carry rifles.

In the case of your 404J it may very well be fired from shooting sticks in the wilds of the dark continent some day, either or, I love the way a bigger bore rifle planes for me on firing.

My 8-Bore has a 28" barrel and my 577 has 26" barrels, they are perfect in my regard, and I believe an extra 2"'s of barrel will make weight just fine without going overboard.

If ya remember pics of my little 6.5 Swede and 9.3X62 they each wear 25" barrels and couldn't be more perfect for me.

Gunner

The gun looks pretty good in your stock with the factory 26" tube. Maybe a 25" would be about right.

DF

Another shot, but not of the full barrel.




Edited to add weights.

All up with 25" tube, 1.5-5x20 Leupy, 9# 4.4oz. With VX-6 1-6x24, 9# 9.3oz. The VX-6 adds 4.9oz, 14.6oz vs. 9.7oz.

Yessir IMHO a 25" would be perfect.

Oh, and if that is in fact still "my stock" just leave it as is and go ahead and send it on back up here.

Gunner

The phrase, "your stock", is purely a study in poetic license...

But you knew that...

DF

I didn't think you would look to hard to find any humor in that ridiculous request.

Oh, and 9.5+ lbs would make a perfectly weighted 404J hunting rifle.

And if ya dont mind the Warne QD's may add an additional oz. or two over the Talleys.

Gunner

The Warne QD's are big and tough, but the Talley QD's are sleeker and nicer looking. I'm going to go with them on the 9.3x62, as that gun came in a few ounces over my 8.5# target wt. after adding the VX-6.

For the 404J, I'm getting SS Talley bases with 8-40 screws. I may get another VX-6 1-6x24 for that gun, as well. Lots of money for scopes, but what fine scopes they are. I'll keep the Vari X III 1.5-5x20 as back up for the 404J and the VX-3 2.5-8x36 as back up for the 9.3x62.

I'm going without iron sights at this time.

DF

Agreed on the Talley QD's, and keeping in mind when/if you DO decide to outfit the 404J with full quarter rib, barrel band sling swivel, and full ringed barrel front sight, weight will be easily made.

Also a more comfortable shooting rifle should you wanna twist the 400 grainers up on the heels of 2400fps.

Gunner

Here's the M-70 SS project gun with a VX-6 1-6x24 in Talley QD's and with SS Talley bases. I like the way the blue and SS mix, the SS bases and blue rings.

DF

You got her goin' your way now Bro, that looks really nice.

Tried to send ya a cell pic of that stainless bottom metal I got from ya, but it wouldnt go through.

It turned out very nice on my old walnut stainless cerakoted M-70 in 375 AI, that sombuck chunkin' those 270 gn TSX's @3100 aughta make a helluve Bull Hammer.

Thinkin' either Cape, Moose, or Elk.

Gunner

I never thought I'd like mixing SS and blue, but it sorta grows on ya.

DF

Ya gotta find someone to nursemaid all those cows and go hunting...

DF

You got that right DF, need to go out to the shop and jam that 4' pipe wrench in the gears of this slave camp and hook a$$.

Gunner

I ran around 650 mamma cows at the peak. Right now, I have zero cows. Some land has been sold, the rest is leased out.

650 is good, zero is better...

As high as they are right now, cashing out would have it's own reward.

And, for sure, that would fund several safari's and a few brown bear hunts thrown in...

Best of all, it would buy you some TIME, the most precious commodity of all...!

DF

So DF, which one are you going to take for Nilgai? The .404 or 9.3x62??

LOL DF, but Wifey says I gotta keep the moo moo's and the trucks for some sort of write off laddered annuity BS, smart folk confuse the hail outta me.

But you are perzactly right, no amount of money can ever buy ya time.

Gunner

Good question, FOst.

I guess the 9.3. Wouldn't want to kill them too dead...

Plus, the 9.3 will be a pound lighter than the .404J.

I've been studying bullets. I think those soft cup and core Hawk 350 gr. .404 bullets would be great for soft skinned stuff. Check them out on line if you're not already familiar with them. They look interesting for local hunting with a big boomer.

I'm probably going to work up 250 NAB loads for the 9.3. Those have great B.C.'s and the 500 yd trajectory is really good for a medium bore. They have 1,800 ft. pounds of K.E. at 500 yds. and one turn of a CDS will reach out that far.

DF

Of the regrets one may have at the end of life's journey, not having spent enough time at the office certainly isn't on the list ...

It's hard to do a safari, using a walker...

DF

Either rifle will obviously suffice! However, Nilgai are extremely wary and spook easily. The lighter rifle might make for a more enjoyable hunt as one can spend a tremendous amount of time stalking those antelope.

My first hand experience with .366 250gr. AB is rather limited. I've heard from some extremely reliable folks that it penetrates and hold together well.

I've used the 250gr. TSX with excellent results. I like the 286gr. Nosler Partition. I personally haven't seen much of a velocity increase (less than 100fps) with the 250gr. bullets, so I've settled on using 286gr. NP for everything.

I have the TSX and the NPT, both will be tried.

The 250 NAB has the best B.C. and think it may be good at longer ranges. That's all moot until I see which bullets the gun likes. I'm just thinking ahead.

Check out Hawk bullets and let me know what you think. They're soft lead with a soft copper jacket, made to different thicknesses for different applications. They're reportedly accurate and expand nicely, good for thinner skinned game, like whitetails.

I'd use tougher bullets on Nilgai and Gemsbok.

DF

Yeah, or keepin' a 577 Nitro from knockin' me outta my new Camo 4X4 power chair with sand bags on the dash.

Gunner

OHHHH, I love to bust a Big Bull Nilgai with those 320 gn Woodleigh's @2400 fps outta my 9.3X62, anybody know how they taste?

They are in the Antelope family, No?

Gunner

They are indeed in the antelope family. In fact, the second largest. And they taste pretty darn good.

Those Nilgai are BIG antelope...

So, why would you use your little ole 9.3, when you have a 577...??

DF

Causin I aint bloodied the 9.3 yet. I done HULLED an armydiller [and I mean hulled] wit my 577.

Gunner

Spectin' the Eland over on the Dark Continent would be the Heavy-weight champ?

Gunner

Nilgai are big, Eland are REALLY BIG...

Like twice or more bigger.

Haven't killed either one, but quite motivated to do so, getting all geared up.

DF

I'm sweatin' pure green envy here DF. Good Luck and Better Hunting, Bro.

Gunner

They're not much of a "wall hanger", but the trophy is in the hunt itself (can be extremely challenging) and the meat.

A good friend of mine had a young bull several years ago that was bottle raised. Dang thing must have thought itself a dog! Very friendly and loved to be petted and scratched behind the ears.

Nice lookin' critter Fost, bettin' a full grown Bull may provide 5' of backstrap per side about the size of a mans calf.

Gunner

To get this back on topic, I have a ZG47 that some joker rebarreled once already. In fooling around with it, it will take a 375 in the top of the mag box, and will pick it up and feed it (part-way until it stops in the current 7mm bore) and will eject it. That size cartridge can be inserted in the magazine by backing it in under the rear receiver ring and then pushing it onto the follower. It almost seems that it could be converted to 404 by opening the bolt face, and increasing the length of the box by 0.15 or so, and of course rebarreling. Does anyone have a ZG47 rechambered in 404? Any thoughts on this?

Hey Main, if ya dont get any info here, ya may consider askin down in the Gunsmith section.

Gunner

I'm not a gunsmith. But, from what I've learned, that may not be the best way to go. Getting a .404J to feed smoothly, from what I understand, can be a problem. You'd have to have a good bit of work on the mag and maybe some work on the rails. The bolt face, extractor work would probably be the least trouble of all.

In the end, you're going to spend some serious money with no guarantee that you'll be happy with this project.

Find a gunsmith who does DG round conversions and ask about the feasibility of that conversion.

For my .404J build, I started with a .300 Ultra Mag Stainless Classic M-70. The .404J is the parent round for the RUM's. They have a slightly rebated rim, so the RUM bolt face and extractor will have to be opened up slightly to accommodate the slightly larger .404J rim. The mag box and rails are suitable for the .404J case and shouldn't need much, if any, work.

Good luck.

DF

Update.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7027519/1

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6569528/1



Edited to add another .404J related thread.

If you want more on the 404 Jeffery then have a read through this link some of us worked on to collate 404 jeffery information.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/4411038851/p/1

And this too
http://404jeffery.blogspot.co.nz/

Super cool. This is getting good enough to be a sticky for .the .404J.

DF