Just got an email from a buddy who bought a Chapuis double in 470 NE,and plans to load for it.....can we tap the collective expertise of the CF for loads/tips on loading for this rifle?

He plans on using the Woodleigh solids/softs in it, but I thought I would also ask about suitable practice loads/bullets.

Thanks in advance for any assistance

I use Norma brass (but you may be able to get Hornady brass soon), Federal 215GM primers, and H4831sc in mine.

I've found (in my gun)that somewhere between 102gr and 106gr regulates well (approx 2030 fps) and fills the case to boot. IIRC, load data goes up to 113 gr but I doubt you'll get close to this without crossing.

I abhor wads/fillers/etc that are necessary with RL-15.

you'll likely need to get a big press like the Lee classic cast, and the Forster "big" case trimmer. Redding dies are $50-ish, RBCS thinks theirs are worth $250.

I forgot: AA5744 (50-ish grains) is a great practice powder.

Chris Sells (Heym USA) has a guy that makes a 497gr hard cast GC bullet in the woodleigh profile to go with it.

I can search out the name if you like, as well as provide load data from AA re: 470NE.

Looks like you got a serious shooter there, UL!

utah thanks for that info....I will pass it along. This may be a real short thread.....not many have one of these in the arsenal

Thanks!

sure.

I also forgot to mention that there is some temperature variability in terms of regulation.

H4831 is in the "extreme powder" lineup and varies less than many powders out there but it still does vary some --- and this is more critical in regulating a double than you'd ever see in a single-barreled gun.

Denton helped me with some math during the initial work-up and we documented the following:

this will vary a little from lot to lot but in general:

+/- 1* F = +/- 1.4fps velocity

+/- 1gr H4831 = +/- 33.5 fps velocity


once I did all the math, I ended up with two loads to hit the target regulation velocity of 2030fps:

#1) 104 gr for average temps 45* - 100* F
#2) 106 gr for average temps below 40* F


I've got a spreadsheet with the formulas if you're interested

Heym 88B 470NE

Target on the left was shot at 100 yards from a standing rest: 106gr RL 22 and 500 gr Woodleigh solid yields 2150 fps. Slightly lower charges of H4831 works nearly as well. (Woodleigh softs do not regulate nearly as well. They'll cross by 2" or so at 50 yds.)

Target on the right was shot from a standing rest at 50 yds:
40 gr XMP 5744 and 425 gr LBT WFN GC yields 1500 fps.

If I could give anyone a word of advice on handloading for doubles is that, in my limited experience, they tend to be individualistic.

Once again thanks guys. I have emailed the thread to Anthony for review by him; I will extend thanks on his behalf since he does not post here....all further commenst/suggestions welcome!

Ask the same question on the AR Double rifle section and you will be overwhelmed with advice:)

+1 I thought I had shot a bunch out of a .470NE (and I've shot several hundred rounds), but I'm a rank amateur compared to these guys. They've shot several THOUSANDS.

Thanks for that tip guys. I will direct Anthony to that site.

He needs to get the book'Shooting the British Double Rifle' by Wright. It's got lots of great information about all rifles with twin tubes.

I'm in the same predicament. Glad to have found some info.

As an aside, I just sized 20 pieces of new Jameison brass tonight. When I went to trim it I found that the pilot of my new Forster trimmer was extremely tight. When I measured the inside diameter of the neck I got .471" and the Woodleigh bullets run .473". The trimmer pilot went into the cases, eventually, but it was a bunch of work to get it to work. Anyone else have issues with tight necks in sized brass? The dies are Redding so that shouldn't be the issue.

Thanks Mike.

I have both the Redding dies and the Forster trimmer. I have not had that issue.

it is however really, really easy to deform the case mouth on the sizing die's expansion ball.

I just measured the trimming pilot: 0.471

a sampling of sized cases also measured 0.471 inner diameter and 0.473 right at the lip

the cases slipped right on though.

a sampling of Woodleigh softs measured 0.474 on the shank, 0.468 at the base(bevel)

Bob, I haven't tried Trail Boss in a NE cartridge yet, but it's popular for reduced practice loads, especially with cast bullets. It's loaded volumetrically, with the procedure for determining the appropriate load range at the IMR site http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

If you read Wrights book he says that Trailboss will put you over pressure before you get to the regulated speed..
It's a big no no for double rifles!

Wildcatter,thanks. Anthony has dies on order and has read these posts by you folks as I email them to him. He says thanks and this has been very helpful...he is doing his homework and I will forward this on to him

Mike, he got the book on Amazon, I think. It is on its' way.Thanks again.

Reduced loads are a whole other can of worms. Some of the folks on the AR forum claim you can ring a barrel if you're not careful. I would urge anyone getting ready to spend the money on a double buy several books on the topic and talk to folks that have done this.

Huntaria, thanks. I will pass that on.

The only load that regulates for me in a Westley Richards is, for lack of a better term, the Siefried load of 89-90 gr of R15 under 6.5 gr of dacron with the Woodleigh soft for 2130 f/s.
Reduce by 2 gr for the solid for the same velocity.

One thing to keep in mind is quite a difference in case thickness. Federals weigh about 320 gr while Bertrams are at 350. Best not to mix them up.

Pete

Start at about 103 grs. of IMR-4831 and see where it shoots..You have to find its regulation load...You can go up to about 108 grs. from there. I personally wouldn't go above 108 grs and thats usually 2245 FPS and kicks like a mule..Load up 4 or 8 each 103, 104, 105, 106, 107 and 108 and head for the range and shoot them until you get a tight group...

Better yet, but seems to complicate some folks is to shoot them until the first two shots cross each other then back up until they do not cross, keeping in mind that if they are too far apart then UP the load until the groups come together, if they cross each other back off about a grain or two. YOu goal is to make them come together as close as possible without crossing..be sure and have a pad on the bench to number your shot as rt. barrel and lft. barrel. Don't flinch or your toast.:)

To know your goal, before you do the above, you must first shoot a couple of groups with EACH individual barrel and find out which side shoots the WORST and that is the best you can expect from your double rifle as to accuracy, therefore that will be your goal with both barrels..A double will only shoot as well as its WORST barrel...After you have determined your best group, fire a few groups to varify it..then sight it in at 50 or 75 yards. I personally like 75 yards.

The load that I have hunted with the most is 85 grs. of RL-15 and 5 grs. of dacron with both Woodleigh softs and solids, it usually shoots them together in most rifles btw..recoil is very mild for a .470 and it kills buffalo exceptionally well at 2020 FPS...It also has a tendency to shoot to the same POI as my IMR-4831 regular loads for some reason that I do not completely understand but then understanding a double rifle is a oxymoran anyway, they just do what they do

I couldn't make RL15 regulate, but that was this individual rifle.

One thing I would add to Ray's advice is to make sure you're holding the gun like you would if you were hunting. It is best to use a standing rest (I built one--they are essentially a tall bench rest), while resting supported forearms/elbows and taking a firm hold on the rifle. This can make a difference at longer ranges. While I know these guns really only need to be minute of buffalo, they will shoot very well with just a little care.

Ray/ Savuti: Thanks much...more great stuff!

Has any one heard that you should not shoot Barnes Solids through a double rifle as it might harm the barrel?

I've heard that, but do not know if its based on fact or speculation. I shot Barnes XLC's in the Heym .470 and they regulated. I had no problems, but its owner was a bit nervous about this, so we went to the Woodleighs. After this, he decided he wanted to try TSX's. They crossed. To paraphrase Ray, a double rifle is like a woman. You need to keep trying stuff to see what they like

While I haven't personally seen it,, (OSR) I personally know a guy who has that have seen it and I'll never throw any of them down my barrels. The North Folks and one from South Africa(forgot the name) as well as the new ones from Woodleigh, have much smaller driving bands and are supposed to be all right. But with all the other premium slugs available.... Why take a chance of a major problem?

+1 Too expensive to be too exotic. That is why we settled on Woodleighs for full power and LBT's w/ 5744 for reduced loads.

Anthony is the fellow to whom I sent all the posts you guys put up; after reading all that good info, he decided to join

Anthony welcome to the CF!

well, welcome aboard then! keep us up to date on your progress.

THanks for all the help guys!!! I am waiting for the brass to come, hopefully tomorrow.

Theres a good thread about 470 loads going on at AR also. It muct be getting popular huh? I'll stick with the 450,, (I heard they lifted the ban in Sudan and India )

I am waiting for my dies to come via UPS any minute. One more question. Crimp or no Crimp? I assume crimp into the band!

definitely crimp. and a fairly heavy one at that (0.008-0.010").

Bob, you strike me as a guy who'd get a kick out of a double. I am "doubleless" right now but they are intriguing. Mine was beautiful to look at but hard to please when being fed except if it was her regular Norma diet that she grew up on. Finicky is as finicky shoots.

That and the open sights were problematic but, really, at the ranges they are made for, one shouldn't fret too much if the rear sight is a bit blurry. And, I'm one who just couldn't continence a scope or a red dot on one.

I crimped my 450NE and 500/450NE for a while then discovered that no crimp was alot more consistant. Try a few of each and IMO you'll stay away from crimping. Even with the recoil you'll see that they won't change length. Remember this isn't a box magazine rifle. Not all the rules apply.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.................

If you will get Wrights book,"Shooting the British Double Rifle" he agrees. No Crimp. I didn't bother reading it til recently, I could have saved lot'sa powder and bullets if I had it earlier.
Huntingtons has the best price recently

Goodnews: Maybe one of these days.....I have only fired one double,a 375.

But now I'll just shoot Anthony's to try it...LOL!

Trailboss loads are intended for reduced velocity practice loads, without compression. They are not intended to replicate regulation MVs. BTW I suspect you'd have a tough time stuffing enough TB in most common NE cases to reach regulation MVs.

Try it with and without crimping. First time you try it without, load both rounds, fire one, then check the unfired round's OAL. Chamber tolerances can vary enough that crimping may very well matter. I don't think there are absolutes when it comes to doubles--and they are certainly too expensive to fiddle around with unless you control as many variables as possible.

Actually Bob, once I get the dies I was depending on you to fire the test rounds to help develop the load...

Watch out Bob; it's a melody that once caught is expensive.

Interesting quote.

LOL! Think I'll watch you...you are young and tough!

Haha! Meant to quote Anthony and quoted Goodnews instead...oops!

Right. You will be way over pressure by the time you get the velocity you want. And you can get enough TB in to cause pressure issues. 5744 works for light plinker loads. But that's no fun!


(Side Note) My NEW Searcy 450NE will be here tomarrow according to 'Big Brown'.. Thursday it'll be barking!

IF YOU INTEND TO HUNT DANGEROUS GAME WITH A DOUBLE RIFLE THEN DO CRIMP YOUR AMMO.

I have seen recoil jump a bullet forward and it stuck in the lands and the ejectors kicked out the case leaving powder bullet and a kynoch filler in the chamber, and the gun was non functional in a charge, fortunatly the PH and I killed the bull with a heart and brain shot respectively at the last minute when we realized what was happening. He slid to the hunters toes and push a big gob of dirt over his tennis shoes!! He couldn't even talk for 15 minutes..Said he couldn't even run..

When I load for a double rifle the first thing I do is turn down the expander ball until I have a very snug fit, I usually remove about .003 to .004 and polish it. I load all my doubles to hunt with and I always strive for a full case of powder but not to a crunch..I either use a case full of IMR-4831 as it fills most cases or I use RL-15 but you must use a filler with RL-15 to fill the case. I always trim cases in a FILE TRIM DIE, as it is the most accurate, then I add to the above a very light crimp..the combination of a a tight neck, a case full of powder to form a base for the bullet and a light crimp, gives you the best accuracy and keeps you bullet in place with repeated recoil. You always shoot one barrel more than the other btw...

I would not use Barnes monolithic bullets in a English, German double of yesterday..I would however use GS Customs flatnose solids as they have the pressure release rings around them and don't stress the barrels. I used the GS Customs flat nose solids in my Jefferys and Army-Navy doubles in 450-400...

I would use Barnes in a Searcy, or the modern equivelent..They have busted some barrels in the past, but as far as I know it was always on thin barreled, mile steel early English guns.....

I don't ever want to own a double rifle that shoots minute of buffalo or minute of grapefruit...I want my double rifle to shoot an inch at 50 yards, most will but 2 inches is acceptable. Remember you can hit a buff in the shoulder arean with any kind of double but if he is coming to eat you you want to be able to stick one in his eyeball or on the hairline of his snoot, and thats under 2 inches. Minute of grapefruit will probably miss the brain btw...The first time I read that minute of grapefruit pharse, I thought this guy has shot enough buffalo to know better than that, its cute but very misleading IMO....

I don't know about you, but after 10 to 12 rounds of full power .470NE, I'm done. Besides, and no kidding, enough of this recoil can cause retina's to detach.

The .45-70 equivalent loads, you can shoot them all day and not have things go black.

Anyway, I would love to see pics when you get your new toy. Let us know how it shoots!

Ray-- a couple of things.

First, I would agree that your approach to crimping is certainly the most conservative and one that I would favor if his rifle will correctly regulate.

Second, I made the minute of buffalo crack in an earlier posting. That's all it was, was an off-hand remark (although I didn't say what part of the buffalo . It was to demonstrate that while you might not need MOA, that with a little care you can get some incredible groups. On another thread I noted how a scoped 9.3 Chapuis I loaded for could shoot a true regulated R/L minute of angle at 200 yards.

PM me your email and I'll send you some pics of the Searcy. I can't do it here.

So I loaded it up and shot yesterday 103, 104 and 105 grains of H4831, Then I went today and shot 105 again, 106 and 107, at 107 I was starting to notice the two groups get closer to about 3", however the individual groups started to spread apart. at 105 I was shooting a 1" group (if I didnt flinch). And at 107 my group spread to 2.5". I learned a lot today and I think I will wait for that book on Shooting the English Doubles to come before I further punish myself and possibly Disconnect my Retina, I could definitely see that as a possibility. Thanks for all the help. Oh and I crimped the case.

Were the lefts staying on the left and ditto for the rights or were they crossing?
Now try some w/o a crimp.

Huntaria Setters,
My post was definately not directed at you, that remark in reference to "minute of grapefruit", "minute of buffalo" was actually perpetuated by a well know gun writer and African hunter, and then another gun scribe and it took hold and became gospel for double rifle accuracy and it was a BS remark and fundamentally wrong, and that was my response to the remark by the writters not to you...It is often used in all double rifle conversations unfortunatly..sorry if you took it personally and I apoligize for that.

AJ,
You WILL NOT detach a retina with a .470, it takes a lot more recoil than a .470 to detach a retina, unless you just had surgery..That is a rumor that has been floating around for a couple of years and its just false...I know of only one case in history wherein that took place and the guy was shooting a 505 gibbs IMP. in a 5.5 Lb. rifle, and the recoil in that rifle was so intense it severed a heavy pair of plastic glasses in half on the bridge of my nose with the scope..I was the shooter..The guy I sold the rifle to was a recoil buff that had recent surgery..that gun had more recoil than any 600 N. E. had when it doubled..it was awesome. Lots of .470 have doubled and no eye damage. I have had that happen of several ocassion..don't worry about it.

Also you got your groups down to 3 inches and 2.5 inches. Not too shabby but do you know where you are with 2.5 inches? The only way to know where you are and what your gun is capable of is to shoot a 4 shot group with each individual barrel..THE BARREL THAT SHOOTS THE WORST! is the best your gun will ever shoot with whatever load you settle on. Your worst barrel may only shoot 2.5 iches in which case your finished and all you need to do is adjust your sights to zero...

They are about an inch below the x. I am going to try it with some shooting sticks next. I had it on a sand bag with my hand under the forend and the butt on another sand bag, sitting down. I am pretty sure I have had enough of that for this week.

Also they have not yet crossed paths. The total group is about 5-6".

I didnt really think it would tear my Retina out, but it is good conversation. Someone once told me I could get a hair line fracture in my skull if I shot my 50bmg more than 20 times in a day.

tell us again what the target distance is compared to the mfg stated regulation distance (usually 50 or 70M) ??

Ray,

Thanks. I appreciate the clarification.

If you do not have not eyesight problems, I agree the risk is absolutely minimal. But as some of us age, it can be problematic. In my case, I already have some symptoms of retinal detachment even without shooting. I have to be careful because after shooting heavy recoiling guns (light 12 ga slug guns actually seem to be the worst) for a while, I either see flashes or things go black at the instant of recoil. This is a warning sign.

If they aren't crossing, then you already a step ahead, IMO. You might want to try RL 22. Anyway, sounds like a great first day.

I will check the little regulation info that I have when I get home from work later. Unfortunately they did it with factory Federal Woodleigh, Weldcore, Soft Points. OH well, even though it was just about perfect I would probably screw around with it had they given me the info.

You might be having the problem because of the sand bags. A DR needs to recoil as if you were shooting off hand. The rifle shouldn't touch anything except flesh and bone. Put your hand under the forearm and wrap around the tubes. But nothing except the shoulder behind it. Sticks will help for this.
In my 450 I haven't seen any difference between the 480 Woodys and Hornadys (in 480 and 500) for punching paper.

not to be a pain, but this matters when trying to match the regulation load.

also, I'm a big fan of doing "detail work" like this standing off a set of tripod shooting sticks. Mike is correct that the barrels have to move freely under recoil.

Are you loading with a Kynoch foam wad? Or at least backer rod?
The loads for H4831sc that I show in Wrights book show the need for foam with 104 grains. W/O foam the load needs to be up to 108.
IMR 4831 should be 103 to 105 w/0 foam. The speed you want should be about 2050fps to 2100fps to regulate if you've got a chrony.
Without a foam wad you might be getting erratic ignition. You are using Fed 215's right?

I haven't had any issues with H4831sc from 100-110 grains. it's pretty filling and even at 100-102gr the bullet compresses it a tad. Even at about 1950fps, the biggest "group" I've ever gotten was about 3" at 50 yards).




(I do have the book and know he says that but this has not been my experience.)

I don't have a 470 so you're more informed than I. I'm just trying to help him from the book.

Now if it were 577/500BPE or 500 3" BPE or 500/450NE or 450 NE then I could help more with a partuicular cartridge.
I've been playing with foam backer rod from Cheapo Depot instead of the $pendy Knyoch foam plugs with good sucess.

the OP says it was regulated with Federal ammo (I'm assuming at 50 or 70M).

this means RL-15, Hornady cases and Federal 216 primers (not available to us). no filler.

Mine was regulated with Wolfgang-Roney ammo, which I gather is a blended or proprietary powder.

Anyhow, in a free-to-recoil 470, I've not seen a huge difference in H4831, IMR 4831, RL-15 and RL-22 in terms of regulation. It's just a matter of finding the right formula (and not shooting too much per session so you don't muck the data up).

I think he did pretty well for first time out. this takes a couple months to really nail down.

Thank You, Thank You and Thank You...

No foam fillers, However my individual groups were best at 105. I am going to try tomorrow off the sticks and see what happens, I think it will be much more enjoyable than shooting it off the bench.
I have already put 40 rounds through, which leaves me with ten left, (I only ordered one box to test the rifle with), so after this I have to wait for the Mail Man on Monday. It is fun to shoot though...

+1 on the Federal loads. I've not used any fillers either.

Heym regulates their rifles with Wolgang Romey ammo. If memory serves me, they use Woodleighs.

As for shooting, stand up and rest your hand on bags on some sort of rest. I built a double rifle rest that looks like a very tall bench.

Another aspect is to make sure you're not canting the gun. This can really cause some odd problems, particularly if one barrel is shooting a bit higher than another.

OK, so they were regulated at 50 meters, which is what I am shooting at.

Also what size target do you guys use? 4" 8", Round, Square? Any particular Color Red, Black?

And do you focus your eye on the rear sight, the front bead or the target?

I guess this thread is going on a little longer than you might have thought Bob...

mine is about an 8" black circle on white, aim point = bottom of circle / middle of bead(see initial post for picture)

Standard 10X bull for me (like UtahLefty, see my initial pic). At longer ranges, though, nothing like a big 6" Target Dot on a big sheet of freezer paper.

I was able to find a box of Federal Factory loads that the gun was regulated with, I am going to compare that to what I shot today. I went up to 108 and still showed no overpressure signs, but still not a great group. My speed was about 2080 fps. (Not sure why I am going to admit this here but I hit the chrono today with a round, not bad though just the metal bar that supports the plastic hood). Not sure how much more recoil I can handle, but when the federals come in I will have something to compare it to, maybe I might have to try a different powder. (H4831 now)

I think there is some user error going on too. My groups are scattered in about a 6" circle, still no crossover though

I am also considering mounting a scope on it just to see if I can shoot a better group with it then I would know it is me with the iron sights and not the load, however thats a $500 expense and a can of worms I dont really want to excercise right now.

Can you post a picture of your group? I'm wondering how close your rights and lefts are over the dozen or so shots you fired.

As for your Chrony, I can paraphrase the bible--He who has not shot his chrony, cast the first bullet. . .

I dont have a picture, but the next volley of Copper I send down range I will be sure to digitally capture.

I sort of lied, I actually hit it twice today. Once with the .470 and once with the .416, not sure how I nicked it, but thats a picture worth posting. Luckily its ok...

500 woodleigh. pretty good straight line penetration. don't tell anyone I told ya...

Hunteria,or anyone, Can you post pics here if I send them to you? I've got a bullet proof shield for the Chronys. I can't do it but I think eyeryone will like this one. PM me an email addy.

Thats awesome, even if I did hit mine twice in one day, I dont feel so bad, at least mine still works...

Be happy to help. PM sent.

Pics from AkMike1-- It certainly looks bullet proof! Mike, please add your comments.

Huntaria,
I agree if your having those kinds of eye problems then I would certainly go to a 9.3x74 or 62 for my big game hunting..Its just not worth it..

My .470 was regulated with 108 grs. of IMR-4831 and shot a 500 gr. Woodleigh soft of solid to POI at 2245 FPS (10 shot average with the high and low out) It bucked and twisted like and eel in your hand, was pretty horrendous to shoot..so I found that it also shot 85 grs. or RL-15 and a 5 gr. dose of Dacron for 2020 FPS to the same POI and at about an inch at 50 yards..It hammered buffalo as well as the 2245 FPS load as far as I could tell and I shot about a dozen buffalo with that load, so I never used another load in it..I notice this load shoots well in most 470s and to the same POI as well, and in all Searcys I have shot??????

Explain the Dacron. Is that the wad?

Yep, but there is a bit of controversy about using it. I think using modern barrels, the risk is small.

WHere do I get the Dacron?

Thanks for posting the pictures Hunteria!
They're pretty self explanitroy. Basicly it's a HD ramp to shield the chrony from stray rounds. It it's good against armour piercing ammo but it'll deflect just about anything else. You do need a better tripod than most use. I've also cut the shade rods and 'spliced' them back together with a MickeyD's soda straw. The reasoning is that if you hit one of the rods it'll break the straw and not rip the rods out of the chrony.

Any place that sells sewing/craft supplies. Its a polyester filler used in quilts and pillows.

I was pulling dacron out of my wifes teddy bear.. But he started looking anemic so I took my pillow. (that was getting pretty flat and asked her to get me a fresh one..) it'll last along time

I couldnt find Dacron specifically but got a polyester fiber filler at Joann Fabrics I assume its the same thing.

Yep, it is. Dacron is a trade name, owned, I think, by Dupont. Its really the same thing used in softdrink bottles, only its spun into fibers.

What did we do before forums?

Dunno. But dude, your avatar really creeps me out!

hahaha see my tag line...

I did. Still. . .

Figured I might add something here.

The rifle is a Heym that belongs to a friend. He was going to Africa and wanted to shoot some before he left, so he had another friend load up some solids and jacketed soft points. Even handloading gets expensive with big bore stuff, so I bought an LBT mold and started casting bullets.

Here is a target shot with those bullets. We didn't shoot on paper much, but did shoot out to 320 yards.

The load Frank took to Africa was a 2,200 FPS load. He took a sable, leopard, and several wart hogs with those bullets and probably others as well.



This is a photo of the sky screens hit with a 515 grain LBT, .470NE. Long story short, the scope mount for this rifle works well, but takes some getting to know. The bullet split both screens and bent the wires.

There is no controversy over the use of DACRON, the controversy is over the use of some other simular products that melt..A wad of DACRON will come out of the barrel in a plug form and land about 10 feet in front of the barrel..

Another option to DACRON are the foam plugs that you can buy from several companies such as Kynoch, they are sized already to caliber and they work very well indeed.

I notice on these threads that the word regulated and sighted in get confused...Regulation is the process needed to get a double rifle to shoot its right and left barrel TOGETHER

There is no controversy over the use of DACRON, the controversy is over the use of some other simular products that melt in the bore when shot..A wad of DACRON will come out of the barrel in a plug form and land about 10 feet in front of the barrel..

Another option to DACRON are the foam plugs that you can buy from several companies such as Kynoch, they are sized already to caliber and they work very well indeed. They are not particularly expensive either.

I notice on these threads that the word regulated and sighted in being used as the same meaning and they are not, they are two seperate processes and they ain't even kin...

Regulation is the process needed to get a double rifle to shoot its right and left barrel as close TOGETHER as the gun will shoot them without crossing. Then you sight it in by adjusting the sights. The two are not a part of each other...

All doubles are regulated and should be sighted in with a specific load from the the manufacturer and they should tell you what load or what brand of ammo they used to do this. If not give them a call.

The worst thing I see with double rifle users, particularly newbes to the world of doubles is they want to play with them like they do with their bolt action rifles..This has for years resulted in blown up rifles, rifles shot off the face and so fourth, Just ask any double rifle manufacturer...With a double you need to find ONE load that works and shoots its bullet at about 2100 FPS and use that one load only. This is good advise. BTW it only takes ONE SHOOT to shoot a double off face, not a serious of hot loads as some believe...

If I order a Searcy, say a 470, I tell Butch I want it to shoot a 500 gr. Woodleigh at 2100 FPS, probably with 106 grs. of IMR-4831 or whatever. I don't want to mess with it, I want to go shoot buffalo with it.

The sole exception is all his .470s seem to shoot 85 grs. of RL-15 and 5 grs. of DACRON at 2020 FPS to the same POI. They will also shoot a reduced load with a 500 gr. lead bullet and 45 grs. of XMP-5744 at about 1700 FPS to the same POI. This is pretty amazing IMO..This may be of interest to some that just can't handle one load all the time.

I have found myself shooting the 85 gr. 5 gr. of DACRON load at 2020 FPS on buffalo more so than the regulation load, in fact almost exclusively, it recoils mild and kills as well on anything I have used.

Well, I guess we need to define controversy. Just do a quick search on dacron and barrel or chamber ringing and you'll see some pretty varied opinions (like you do here). I would think it would be in a new member's best interests to know that there are some that do think there can be an issue. At least then he can evaluate the existing data and go from there.

Having said that, in modern steel barrels, I have no qualms about putting a puff of dacron on top of the powder, so long as its fluffy enough to make contact with both the powder and bullet base.

Another thing to note is the "75% Rule" that NE450#2 (Tony) at the AR forum came up with. He found that you can shoot a slug of 75% weight of the regulation load with the same powder charge and it will shoot to regulation. With my 450's since they were regulated with 480 grain slugs, I dropped back to 350 grain and they work well with reduced recoil. I also tried some 350's with 40 gr of 5744 in both 450's and a 500/450 with very nice results.

Hunteria,
The ringing in the barrels was not from using DACRON IMO, rather it was from using IMR-3031 powder with and without a filler as was a long time practice back in the good ole days! and your right there is and has been a lot of controversey on the subject of doubles.

The double rifle is shadowed in myth and misinformation such as IMR-4831 will split barrels or blow up guns from a double explosion, but I have never been able to varify that with anything but "well I know a guy" or "my uncle charley did it" etc. and I have tried for years to varify one proven case, no luck... Another myth that is simply hogwash is that you must shoot a double with the front trigger then the rear trigger (ritht left) as that is how it was regulated..I have done it both ways many times and there is no difference in any double I have ever shot and that is a bunch of double rifles..In fact I always shoot the rear trigger first, as on ocassion if you shoot the front one first then sooner or later your finger will come off the front trigger and hit the rear and you will get a double bang, and it will kick the liveing s---t out of you! I will also add that I have used the GS custom monolithics and North Fork monolithic bullets in about all of the English rifles and with no problems at all, and that is about all I use in the Searcys or modern guns. I have heard that the Barnes solids will split barrels, but I simply dont' believe it, but I won't swear to it because as sure as I did someone on this board would blow a gun up with them..probably because they over loaded it and blamed it on the bullets used, that's always real convienient, and grounds for a law suit and recovery of a expensive rifle I suspect! . Nice talking to you.

Mike1,
Yes, the 75% rule is what I used to come up with my 45 grs. of XMP-5744 load and a 500 gr. bullet in my .470 mentioned in my last post above..It does work 99% of the time and when it doesn't its usually because the gun is off face or something else is haywire...

On that target you posted the picture of.. Why did you cut back for shooting with a scope? Load it back up to the iron sighted speed and try again.

Well, IMR 4831 problems is one I hadn't heard!

I've never seen any difference between shooting the left barrel first either. Although, and while its hard to believe, the only time I ever saw a .470NE double was when a guy said he'd pulled the rear trigger first. I sure wish I had a camera. His glasses were blown completely off his face and I'm not sure his hair wasn't standing up too!

Got it... 107 Grains of IMR 4831, The H 4831 did not work. They were crimped and the non crimps did not work. Off to the chiropracter for a full body adjustment...

I attached the picture, if it did not work then I cannot figure out how to attach it, figuring out the double was actually easier than the photo option.

I also got the Book "Shooting the Double Rifle"

If the right barrel is printing right, left prints left and you were shooting from at least 50 yards, I'd say you have a winner.

They were, thanks to everyone for all the help and direction. Couple hundred practice rounds and I'll be ready for that big
B#$%!@&*...

Awesome! That didn't take long!

Having messed with Heym's a bunch, I can tell you the following:

1) They are regulated with Wolfgang Romey ammo
2) Usually the Romey ammo are Woodleigh solids

I would be a bit concerned with the crossing that you have. You might want to try 500 gr. Woodleigh solids and 105 gr. RL 22 to start. I'm betting this will get you close to regulation. If you want a reduced load cast bullet, then I would suggest you try the LBT load I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Keep in mind that were talking about crossing at 50 or 75 yards and I would add 100 yards to my rifles...At some range all double will cross or spread greatly, its the nature of the beast, no matter what you do. The object is to control them within about 100 yards IMO. Beyond that your best bet is to test them so that you know how to hold at extended ranges and use Kentucky windage..It is a short range rifle with a specific purpose..

I'm sorry but I don't see any crossing in the above target! Am I missing something..It looks great to me both with the irons and with the scope..

Well, I'm a dope. I saw that and for some reason (probably both tired and in a hurry--now why on earth would you do that on a post--sheesh), I had a moment of dyslexia. Nope, it looks great. My apologies, especially to the original poster.

As for crossing at some range, I think it depends on the gun. I've seen this argument about them all crossing at some range, but in the few doubles I've played with, none of the .470's crossed out to 200 and I know of one 9.3 still going strong at 300. It might be fun to test this out to 600 yards. Have you done any extreme range doubles testing?

Huntaria,
Ooops, actually I have not tested this cross over business to any extent at all, and my guns do not cross at 100 or even 200 as I recall.. I just accepted they cross over at some point as it is proclaimed as fact from "those" in the know! :), at least they are supposed to be in the know! ..

A test such as you suggest would be very interresting and shed light on but what could be just another one of those old wives tales, that have plagued the double rifle establishment for years...

Well I was able to do it again. The more I shoot it the more confident I feel too. The far shot to the right was an off hand shot.

Thanks again for all the help...