I'm a vertically-challenged guy who, due to recent health problems, has lost significant upper body weight and 50% vision in right (dominant) eye. My favorite possession in this world is my Win Mod 70 in .375 H&H built in 1956 and bought in Montana in 1967. Had the gun extensively "slicked up" by Frankonia Jagd gunsmiths in Wurzburg, Germany in 1984. Mods included cutting off barrel to remove front sight/ramp, oil-refinishing the stock and barreled action, a black recoil pad and African Buffalo forend tip. I don't know exactly what it weighs but probably a little more than when it left Winchester as I mounted a steel 30mm Kahles 1.1-4.5X scope on the gun. I don't want to change it any further. Love it the way it is.
My pet has been in storage almost 20 years. My shooting history with 500-600 factory loads and a 1000 or so reloads has been 1" - 2" groups at 100 yds. Yesterday I dug it out, cleaned the barrel & action, tightened all screws and went shooting. The damn thing almost killed me. In the past, 1" 100 yd groups were not uncommon. Yesterday I made a 4-shot 0.72" group at 50 yds with R-P factory 270 gr loads. But I have to control recoil some way if I want to shoot more. So I'm looking for some way to cut down on the fun at the bench without shipping my girl to a gunsmith. My shooting experience for the foreseeable future will probably be 50/100 yd range. I'm leary about putting a long gun in the postal/UPS system.
Does anyone have experience or comments with the strap-on shoulder recoil shield by PAST? Pros/Cons for 1/2" Vs 1" thick? Shield thickness Vs LOP change?
As always, your advise/counsel will be treasured.

Don Boyd

I can highly recommend the PAST recoil shield with the elastic strap to hold it in place. I used mine yesterday with the .375 Ruger. Mine is not real thick, and change to LOP is not noticible, but it sure helps me get in more shooting.

Any pics of your rifle?

Don,

First off, I am soooo sorry to hear of your troubles. You have a VERY fine rifle there! Here are some idea's......

#1, I use the PAST recoil shield, magnum thickness, whenever I am shooting my hot loaded 416 Rigby and it is a Godsend. You are on the right track here, Buy one and use it.

#2, no rule or law that I know of says you have to fire only full power loads through your baby. Try some light for weight Barnes TTSX or TSX bullets with AA5744 or Trail Boss powder. These powders can enable you to load your rifle down to 375 WIN speeds with terrific accuracy. STILL plenty of power for a deer should you desire to go and slay such with your wonderful rifle and the Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets will expand reliably at the lower speeds. You could even use some of the 200gr flat point bullets designed for the 375 Win along with the by design bulky and low energy powders mentioned above for a near zero recoil deer load.

Good luck, God bless, keep shooting and hunt it all you can! MARK

I can shoot some digi-pics and attach them to an email to forward to someone a group smarter than me. You would be welcome to post here on the Fire. Any volunteers.

i'll do it. i'll send a PM with my email

My pre-64 M70 375 was built in 58 so not much newer than yours. The recoil pad didn't do much for recoil I think because the rifle was resting on it for many years. I bought it in 99. I changed it to a Kick-Eez and now I can shoot it with full power loads no problem. I even put 33 rounds through it 6 months after shoulder surgery with no problem.

Limbsaver pads are very good also. I put one on my 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun. What a difference!

+1 on the limbsaver pads, with enthusiasm! Have 'em on my 3.5 inch Benelli 12 ga and others.

Those PAST pads are sweet. They take the "OH CHIT" out of most anything. I have a bad neck and my .300's used to give me a headache. To me, they tone things down to a loud 243.

I also have a slip on Limbsaver. It works magic as well.

I also recommend the PAST recoil shield, as well as reduced loads. No need to alter the rifle at all. Cast bullets and 5744 powder, combined with the recoil shield, would allow you to shoot all day long and not put much wear on either the rifle or yourself.

As always, these are super responses. Thanks to all and I'll fold, spindle and mutilate till it fits.

We ARE a knowledgeable, talented and handsome group, aren't we....

Toad, were you able to access the pics of my .375 on Flickr?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/donboyd/sets/72157623757640203/

NAH...a bunch of puzzies...LOL

My 1949 Mdl 70 375 H&H still has the steel butt plate, and it is a cream puff to shoot. They are heavy enough that recoil is not all that bad. I can shoot it much longer at a session than I can my Ruger 77 MK II 338 in a factory laminated stock with a Limbsaver pad.

I'll own up to not wanting to shoot my 375 with a steel buttplate. My 300 H&H has a steel plate though. Does that count?

pictures of Don Boyd's rifle...

Well some of us are handsome but for all three, I dunno....

Thanks Toad. I took me forever to figure out how to work Flickr. I bought the loudenboomer in Great Falls and shot a small black bear the next season. .375 : 1 Bear : 0.

Limbsaver makes prefit pads for a bunch of different rifles and shotguns. They look nice when they fit right, but if they don't, the slip-ons work just as well, just don't look as good. I use both!

Hunter...close enough...

Toad...I'd curl up with that sweet looking piece, for sure.

those are Don Boyd's pictures. i just posted them here for him.

Still

Yeah, that is one fine rifle there.

I think my future includes a new recoil pad on my girl. One of the reasons I'm so hesitant is I love the looks of the one on her now, which is a Pachmayr Old English 752B. However, I browsed Brownells and looks like that exact same model is now available in the Decelerator Rubber material (Model D752) for additional squishing power (?). To avoid my paranoia about putting my girl in public shipping, I'll try to find a local craftsman who can mount a new pad while cutting off stock material to equal 1/2" less LOP than now. Otherwise, will look into USPS Registered Mail with beaucoup insurance. Then get a PAST Recoil Shield to mate with the Decelerator Old English pad and think I'm in business.

Don: Nice rifle!

Don,

I am over 70 yo and have a pacemaker in me. I don't shoot the .375's any longer! When I got them long ago being a cast bullet fan I made up some hunting loads for the .375's with a hollow point gas check bullet. With a moderate load they don't kick bad and have taken a few deer at modest ranges.

If you shoot a heavy kicker at the range slip on another pad. Its easier than having the rifle worked on and when hunting you may be wearing a heavier coat anyway. Hold the forend of the heavy kicker firmly with your forward hand and rest that wrist on the front bag. Sitting up straight and holding the rifle like that will reduce the chances of injury.

What with your vision problems and other concerns I suggest only moderate loads. Thats what I am doing.



The slip on pads are on the .358W's!

I'm an Old Phardt too and when shooting my 375s from the bench, I raise the bench so I can stand up to shoot....alowing me to roll with the punch....our club is currently getting new benches built and all with adjustable legs....1-2 will be adjustable for stand-up shooting.

Not sure if this will help. I too am physically impaired due to ill health and wanted to shoot my 375 H&H but the recoil was a hinderance. I tried a Knoxx recoil reducing stock and it has done wonders for me. It is made in several models to fit various firearms and my Remington 700 was easy to stock with very little work. I have a custom barrel and the stock still fit with just a slight bit of relief. I think this stock is available for the M70 and you can always put your wood stock back on when you want to show it off. The Knoxx stock uses a rubber overmolded stock and fits the recoil system into it. I feel it has reduced the felt recoil by at least half. Chris

Vern, Elmer Keith wrote considerable about the "Stand-Up" Bench Rest stand. He was an outspoken proponent for it with Double Rifles (actually he was an outspoken proponent for most everything he liked). He had a name for it I can't recall right now. I probably have it somewhere here in my library but have do dig deeper to find it.

Thank you everyone for the thoughts, wishes, and advice.

I try to stack the sand bags pretty high at the bench so as to try to sit straight up when shooting my 375s. Hunkering down behind won't allow you body to flow back with the rifle during recoil.


.

I can recommend TWO solutions. I use BOTH. Cabela's sells a "shooter's friend" slip on recoil pad. It soft rubber. Buy it. Use it. And shoot lighter recoiling loads like 235 grain Barnes projectiles over 66 grains of R-15 instead of 300 grain pills at stout recoil.

Dan,
A stand up bench rest is a good idea and they sure help..I notice that you already have a pretty nice recoil pad so a shield might help and a tad long stock is a help in recoil..The main problem is the pre 64 Win. stocks are actually poorly designed to take up recoil.. Also part of your problem is that you have not shot in some time apparantly and that always magnifies the problem, as it will take some time to get back into shooting but as your shoulder toughens up and you get used to it, it will come to pass..You can also load it down or have some ammo loaded down, as your apparantly not going to be shooting any dangerous game anytime soon.

Thank you Ray, You're correct on all counts.

If I don't do this now I'll be "Dan" for the rest of my "Fire" experience. Actually my name is DON BOYD. Not important to anyone but my Mother and me. I just re-read my copy of Elmer Keith's book, Rifles for Large Game, Chap XV, Stock Design and Bedding. Can't thank of a more expert reviewer than Elmer. I certainly know there are many modern gun writers but heavy recoil has been around long enough to be pretty much solved. Again, so many thanks to you all.

Don Boyd

Ray, We all know that stock design effects felt recoil a lot. I notice you mentioned the Mod 70 stock being poorly designed to take up recoil. Do you think that comment applies to both the Low Comb and the later Monte Carlo stock styles? I've shot both and feel the MC style is much better in the recoil department. I got rid of all mine with a low comb. (Once had a low comb .300 H&H -- that was fun!)

Don Boyd

Don,
That would mostly depend on your build and facial contours..No one stock fits all..To me the low comb feels better than the Monte Carlo, to you the Monte Carlo is best..

The only way to know is try a stock, then you take the guess work out of it..

A Custom stock to your specs is always the best way to go but also the most expensive.

I properly pulled the trigger o 50,000 rounds of small bore stuff before I went back to any of my .375H&H's. As soon as I pulled the trigger I realized I was holding the rifle (375H&H) To soft, I was holding it like I was shooting a small bore, this after shooting more than 1500 rounds through a .375&H. Don't make that mistake like I did for years now I have called the M70 pre-64 .375H&H "the gentle giant" Kills at both ends. Don't make the same mistake I did. Its easy to forget when you get in a different habit, body language is mental as well as physical.

OK Folks, I got the large 1/2" PAST pad from Midway, took it and a light German shooting vest to a local Auto Upholstery Shop. Had them position it right for my .375's recoil pad and cut and sew the PAST into the vest. Be taking some factory loads and the old girl to the range tomorrow. I'll let everyone know how I like it. I still have the option of replacing the recoil pad on the M70 with a Decelerator Model.

Don Boyd

I have the Decelerator pad on several of my McMillan stocked rifles. I sure as heck can't tell any difference form the regular Pack-mire pads.

Don,

If none of the above mentioned suggestions help you, I'll offer just one more.

Sell it to me

Good luck with such a classic rifle!

Thanks 3sixbits, you may have saved me some hassle. And Marty, I just don't know what I would do without the compassion of my fellow Fire Brothers.

Don

Don,
you have to learn to shoot a big bore and that is mostly mental, nobody in good health has ever been injured from recoil, least we would all be shooting 222's...What bothers you about the recoil, is it hurting your shoulder or your face would be my first question? It is muzzle blast distracting? Isolate the problem first of all, then work on that..

Again a custom or simi custom stock might be the best solution..A proper laminate is good on a big bore and it gives some weight to the gun and can be cut to fit your build, I am not too fond of plastic stocks on big bores and don't believe for moment that those composite stocks suck up recoil because the give to the shot..if they did then they would be offset by being lighter in weight IMO..

A muzzle brake is always the best way to stop the recoil in a big bore, but I would hate to see you mess up a nice pre 64 M-70 with one unless you intend to keep it forever..They do work and will teach you to shoot big bores..Have a thread cap to go with the brake so you can finish each session with a few off hand shots with it and may choose to hunt without it and in time you will quite using it and be comfortable with the unbraked gun. It works...As to noise, they do increase noise to varing degrees but you can wear ear protection at the range and practice sessions and keep in mind that with or without a brake a big bore can do ear damage, end of story! I use ear protection faithfully but when I hunt I take off the brake, put on the screw protection cap and don't use hearing protection or at least I did in the beginning...Today I shoot anything up to and including a 458 Win. without a brake without any trouble..Beyond that I need all the help I can get.

I use the PAST recoil shields all the time - when test firing rifles/shotguns for functioning, and when on the bench.. Love 'em.

Christ Lee, I thought you ate Pre-64's for lunch. But thanks for the endorsement. Had some Honey-Doo's come up today so my range session will be tomorrow. Ray, As I see it my biggest problem is the loss of body weight and lack of ability to absorb recoil. I think the worst pain is to my shoulder. I've shot the .375 so much I don't think the noise bothers me. While my eye damage is bothersome the groups I'm shooting, .7" to .9" at 50 Yds, indicate to me my eyes still work some. If I concentrate as hard as I can I can string a group while letting my Lady beat hell out of me. I've never used a muzzle brake. I have some custom ear plugs a Dentist made for me I met in Iver Hendrickson's shop in Missoula, MT in the late 60's or maybe early 70's. I use those when hunting as they permit pretty normal levels of conversation but attenuate the eye-crossing noise.
Again, Thanks to all.

Don Boyd

Finally got my .375 and the PAST Recoil Shield together at the 50 yd range. I think I'm ready to try the 100 yd distance at the next session. And Ray, I think you're very correct in I have to learn to shoot heavy bore rifles again. As I settled my girl into her sweet spot on the PAST I found that applying heavy stabilizing pressure rearward and being constantly aware of dragging any wood was becoming automatic. Even with my damaged eye, I shot 0.87" (4-shot), 0.96" (4-shot), 1.20" (4-shot) and 0.98" (3-shot) groups with Remington Factory 270PP at 50 yds. Checked carefully after the session and don't have any sign of a shoulder bruise. I'm very pleased. A special Thank You for all your advice and encouragement.

Don Boyd