I have my Safari rifle narrowed down to a lightly customized CZ550 or lightly customized Win M70.

Both would have: Kicheeze buttpad fit to 14.25” lop, 3 position safety, express rear sight, barrel band sling stud, barrel band front sight with brass bead, barrel cut&crowned to 22”, action confirmed for slick feeding and the trigger set to 3lb crisp pull.

The M70 is a bit lighter, so I may request weight added or a mercury recoil reducer in the butt.

Thoughts? What would you choose?

The better handling one, the one I could shoot better.

DF

What he said.

My preference would be for a Winchester, but I have owned and handled both in big bores.

You need to handle both and see what you like.

The Winny is probably a little light for the recoil of a full gin Lott. Shortening the barrel isn't going to help that and adding weight to the rear fools with the balance. And getting it to feed Lott cartridges can be problematic. Not all gunsmiths can handle that.

The CZ is built on the magnum action so it is a little oversize for a H&H cartridge and the stock is bulky and clubbish to me.

I would probably talk to American Hunting Rifles about what I wanted. They are the CZ experts and can advise you.

DF, which do you prefer? Your CZ 550 is a souped up version: if I'm not mistaken. If going with a CZ, that's what I'd do with mine, If I were the op. Your Winchester classic stainless is also the way I'd roll if going Winchester. No need to go ultra fancy with the Winchester, but the CZ550 has a "clubby stock like another poster said. One of the reasons I sold my CZ550. And the same reason I'd go AHR if ever again looking at a CZ 550... My CZ shot lights out, but just didn't handle or balance as well as my Winchesters.

CZ is a big gun. Sold mine in 375 because it was needlessly big and heavy. Shorter barrel and a bit trimmer stock makes them nice though.

In a Lott, it may be a good thing. Lol.

CZ it holds 5 in the magazine and one in the chamber. Being heavy in .458 Lott would not be a problem IMO.

You can make a case for either action but I chose a CZ. The CZ does need a bit of work to get it right though, probably more than a M70 would, if that’s an issue.

Heavy is not a problem, handling like a log is. A CZ is going to take more than a little work to make it handle. Add in the fact that I prefer the old style model 70 trigger on hunting rifles, it is a very easy choice.

I have had two CZ 375's and two CZ 416 Rigby's. All are gone.

Have owned a couple of Model 70 404 Jeffery's and currently own a 375 and 416 Remington. The 375 is heavy but handles and carries nicely. The factory Tupperware stock has been replaced by an Echols, That is it. I am having a lot of fun shooting this rifle and my end goal is to shoot the barrel out.

The 416 is a little lighter due to the bigger hole in the barrel, handles nice and will retain the original factory wood stock. Currently at the gunsmith's getting some aftermarket Dakota Arms open sights installed, and bedding.

My CZ in .450 Howell handles very well in my hands and it had nothing done to it except a re-chamber from .458 Win mag. Just guessing,but I think it weighs in the 10 lb range.


Different strokes for different folks.

Absolutely, that is why DF nailed it with the first post.

Yup,DF is pretty smart.

He has been around the block a time or two, maybe three.

Aww shucks, you dudes gonna make me blush

Seriously, I like the CZ and M-70. The CZ was one I traded for, a highly modified AHR in 9.3x62. I since traded it. It's a bit heavier than the SS M-70, but in a really big round, weight not a problem, would probably be a plus.

The AHR stock handles better than the OEM CZ stock, IMO.

It would depend on the individual gun and which one appealed to me at the time.

Ask a Loony which rifle he prefers, probably the one he's shooting...

Here's the AHR CZ with a SS .404J M-70 I built from a 300 RUM donor. D'Arcy Echols stock.


Here's the SS Classic .375 H&H that I mentioned and still have, the above two traded. I liked them, both great guns. This Tupperware Classic is just such a rugged, utilitarian piece that it sorta grew on me. I had the barrel flutted and trimmed to 21", handles great.

Nice rifles, DF.

Unless things have changed, both CZ and Winchester use the same barrel profile from 375 to 458. Obviously their rifles in 458 were lighter and IMO handled better. In 458 the barrels were about right and you really wouldn’t want them any lighter.

The CZ is a heavier and longer action but in a big calibre you will be putting more weight between the hands, which is where you want it for better handling. When mine is complete (still needs stock work) I expect it will end up around 9lbs without a scope, which I think is fine for a 458.

The CZ has a larger mag capacity and longer mag as well, its 3.8” long vs 3.6” for the M70 in a Lott. This gives you the option to use a Lee FCD to load to a longer LOA and exceed factory specs or reduce pressure, if you want to. You can also increase the length and capacity of the M70’s magazine if you want to go down that route.

The American style stock on the CZ’s is a bit oversized in nearly every dimension but there is enough wood there to have a competent stock maker slim it down to fit you properly. It’s worth mentioning that there was a factory synthetic stock option that really felt and handled well if you’re happy to go that way.

There are other areas to look at but these are the main areas to consider.

You're right about Winchester having the same barrel contour with their Express guns. That was my complaint with this .375, the barrel was too heavy, too much metal compared to a .458 or 416. So that's why I chopped and fluted it. It's about right, now.

Had it been a .458, I think it would have been OK.

The CZ is a bigger, heavier gun and my be the better option for .458 Lott. But, I would need to slim down the factory stock to suit my taste, agree with that.

I've not handled their synthetic stock, but that may be an option if it's not too chunky.

DF

The introduction of the 375 Ruger in lighter rifles has forced Winchester and Remington to redesign their offerings in 375. Winchester’s Alaskan model in 375H&H has a lighter barrel profile compared to their Express/Safari models.

I believe the synthetic stock for the CZ is made by B&C. It is quite a lot trimmer and handier than the factory wood stock.

CZ in a B&C may be the ticket.

I’d have to handle one. But I have no desire for a .458 Lott.

DF

Has anyone handled the McMillan CZ Express or whatevertheycallit stock? Wonder if it feels less like a railroad tie.

I have a CZ 416 Rigby and the only thing I seriously dislike is the that clunky stock.

There’s no question about it, the American style stocks on the big CZ’s are just large everywhere. I couldnt even get my face low enough to use the open sights. As I mentioned, there is enough wood there to have the stock slimmed down to fit you properly.

I haven’t handled the McMillan stock but if I was going synthetic i’d look at the AHR fibreglass stock. They need your barrelled action as they mould the stock around your metalwork. The only criticism I have about the B&C stock is that it’s a little thick in the wrist for me. A lot of people are fine with it though.

McM may have a CNC program for that barreled action. If so, they may not need your gun.

I’ve sent them a Mauser and an HS Precision SPL barreled action as they didn’t have a program for that one. They do now. Mauser actions can vary a good bit and for that reason they wanted the gun.

Most common guns are covered, thus my thinking about the CZ.

DF

I personally prefer the cz after owning both. It has an open trigger design that is fully adjustable, a 1pc bolt, better magazine capacity and much nicer irons. It’s also has a superior optics mounting system

I would replace the OEM CZ trigger with a Timney or equivalent. MIM stuff breaks, which makes me a bit nervous with a true DG rifle. I know others will chime in and say it's OK. May work for them.

YMMV, but that's how I feel. Not hearsay, this happened to me.

And I like the trigger positioned further back in the trigger guard. Timney does that.

DF

The CZ's re-done by AHR are truly a classic package but would be more expensive than the Winchester. If you go more stock then the M-70 for me. On the Winchester all I would do is tune trigger and feeding and put a Williams extractor ob it. A low power scope and Talley detachable mounts and it would be ready to go.

AHR makes their own trigger. It sits back in the trigger guard as in the photo above.

BUT, to me the Timney is a better trigger than the AHR. And, probably cheaper, although I never priced the AHR trigger. Not sure if they sell it as a part.

And yeah, a full house AHR is big bucks. I wouldn't pay retail, got mine in a trade, valued at about half retail. It was used (barely).

DF

I have an AHR trigger and cocking piece coming in, hopefully soon. Their trigger blade fits into the existing CZ trigger housing, is adjustable and sits back in the trigger guard. The price is $85 which I didn’t think was too bad.

I agree the stock CZ trigger does sit forward but that is probably necessary to make the set trigger function easier to use. Just why you would want such a feature on a DG rifle is another matter.

I don’t see the need for a set trigger on a DG rifle.

That’s a better price on the AHR trigger than I thought.

DF

I went with the M70 built up by Dennis Olson. My reasoning is that it is closer to a DG rifle stock. I have handled Winchester wood and it handles pretty well, just a bit short for a DG rifle. The sights are ok, but I wanted a 22” barrel, so I had it shortened and proper DG sights put on. I did want a 458 Lott, so that along with slickening up the action is in the action work. The trigger will be 3 lb and crisp. Finally, I asked my builder to switch the recoil pad out for a red kickeeze set to 14 3/8”. He may end up adding a recoil reducer or weight to get the balance right depending on how it balances compared to my request.

The other options were an AHR or Triple River. Both sound great, but I couldn’t afford to make the stock right and they required a fair amount of metalwork.

The funny thing is there is a complete AHR rifle for $3200 on Gunbroker I would have sprung for, but I closed the deal last week.

I think when Mr. Olson finishes the Winchester, I will have ended up with the right rifle.

For going cheap, the Win M-70 Tupperware is a nicely proportioned stock, handles great. You may not be too proud of it, but it is about as good as you can get for the price. And you won't worry about scratching it. It's more like a pack mule than a race horse... I don't remember seeing anyone brushing a mule...

DF

I have a CZ 458 Lott / 458 Win with an AHR tune up. I bought this rifle used, though it looks new. Imagine that.

It has the factory type synthetic stock, AHR's front and rear sights, AHR's 3 position safety and trigger, with a matte black GunKote finish, and bolt straightening, with a 22" barrel.

It seems to be a big rifle in comparison to my other larger bore M70's, Rugers, and Interarms. No denying the action is large. But that is only noticeable to me in side by side comparisons. In its present form it seems well proportioned, to me.

With 30mm Alaska Arms rings attached, no scope or ammo, it weighs approximately 9 lbs 3 ounces. In its present form, it handles well to me.

I bet you will have a very fine rifle from Dennis Olson. He is known for outstanding work.
Not done by Dennis, but I really like the stainless re-barreled M70 416 Rem that I have.

Sorry, the Safari Express In wood is the base rifle.

Is Dennis Olsen re-stocking the rifle or just working with the factory wood? I like a decelerator pad on any rifle with some recoil, the Kickeze is too squishy to me and I feel the recoil more on my cheek than with a firmer pad. But many like the Kickeze and it may feel softer on the shoulder. Not sure about the current M70s but the New Haven ones the extractor was a casting and the Williams is a good machined replacement I'd recommend. Also might want to put a heavier spring in the floor plate release. I haven't had problems with either but have heard of issues with some, my 375 doesn't rattle the floor plate like the Lott will.

He is not restocking at this point. I like the Winchester except lop. After a year or so with this wood, I may have it restocked.

Model 70 Winchester all day everyday.

I always like to hear why people say what they say....can you explain?

I keep thinking I will swap the express stock for an XTR light but never get around to it. I have a good piece of Cicassian Walnut that would be an ideal choice as the grain is straight through the wrist. But for the Lott the Express is made to order. I forgot who designed it, was it D'Arcy Echols?

My only M70 is a pre 60 featherweight in 30-06 and with factory length stock it hurt. Dad got it when I finished high school back in '63. The first time I shot it with 180 gr Remington factory loads it bruised my shoulder so bad i was oozing blood. A thick recoil pad with no wood removed tamed that.

Now fast forward almost 50 years, I walked into a nearby Gander Mountain and picked up a CZ550 Safari American on the rack in .375 H&H.. Beautiful wood. It fit me perfectly. They also had a .416 Rigby and a .458 Lott. I choose the .375 because of the wood, and never planning on going on safari figured I could afford to shoot it more than the other two, esp the .416. The stock may be a little clubby as some have stated, but the buttpad is wide and spreads the recoil well so it does not seem bad, plus the gun is heavy. I also have a Ruger #1 in .375 H&H and it is not comfortable to shoot, probably due to stock difference. Pushing 74 years old, if i were going for a larger more powerful caliber i would look for something like my CZ, and maybe a bit heavier in the 10-12 lb range.

Magnum length actions are made for H&H length cartridges.

Holland & Holland Co. and other British makers, started using magnum mauser actions [which initially were exclusively supplied to John Rigby & Co.]
With the decades following WW-II , they began putting long magnum chamberings on modified std. length mausers simply because of the shortage
of true magnum length Oberndorf actions.

When J.Roberts & Sons were contracted to build Rigby rifles in 1970s, they utilised the Brno 602 action.

These days there is ample supply of new manufacture true magnum length genuine M98 design feature actions [ either in-house or outsourced]
not to warrant using a std. action.

The advantage of the CZ is that it has a true _undercut extractor design just like the M98.
Although in more recent times folks waffle on about 'CRF',...Reliable Extraction was always a design strong point made about the Mauser 98.

Yessir, first, I love the model 70 Winchester, second, I prefer a cleaner, more classic, traditional style build on rifles, to each their own of course, but I can't get enough euro slapped off a CZ to suite me.

[/quote]

The advantage of the CZ is that it has a true _undercut extractor design just like the M98.
Although in more recent times folks waffle on about 'CRF',...Reliable Extraction was always a design strong point made about the Mauser 98.

[/quote]


This is very overlooked...but very important imho

I don't recall the exact post but dint you say this breakage was due to improper stock removal or something where it got bound up? Not accusing you of anything just curious.

I have 3 550s currently including my every day shooter and have had zero issues with the trigger once adjusted and id not be joking to say its been fired 5000 times. I also am not a fan of MIM parts...but I'm wondering if there was a casting flaw in yours. Ruger triggers are MIM IIRC and seem pretty stout...but to my original point about the cz trigger is that it is an open design and remains as such if replaced with a aftermarket unit.

I made a post asking for opinions some time back as i was curious about their reputation. It seems there is not a lot of 550s in use with members of this forum.

Yes, you are correct. I had the trigger adjusted from set to single stage. That position locks the trigger forward, doesn't let it pivot rearward.

The trigger slot in the bottom metal is a bit skimpy for the barreled action to be removed, trigger set like that and can put it in a bind. That's what happened to me.

If you don't adjust to eliminate the set feature, doubt you'd have a problem. Once I saw MIM parts, my feelings for that trigger went South.

Now, if you want to adjust the set feature out, just elongate the trigger slot with a file. Easy to do and the best way to prevent a broken part.

Did I say I don't like MIM parts...

Didn't know it had them until it broke. I'm betting that Ruger and others don't have MIM parts than thin and skinny. Some of the new revolvers are full of MIM parts, but those parts seem more robust, probably designed to accommodate MIM without weak spots.

DF