Recently, Two(2) interesting things have happened:

1. SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute) approved this new cartridge:


​

2. This Trade Mark was filed:




Appears that Winchester/Olin - is on the verge of correcting the shortcomings of their .270 WSM.




GR

I noticed they have spec'd it to the 10 thousandth of an inch--just like the Creedmoor

But, why?

Looking at load data, I don't see any benefits, what am I missing?

It's twisting at an 8. For long, heavy bullets, instead of the 130-150gr bullets of the 1:10 twisted WSM and WIN.

Exactly.

... and the shoulder pushed back a bit... for...






GR

Dang. I don’t hate the 270 wsm.

They would make more money by just starting to sell 270 Winchesters with 8" twist barrels.

How many of these rifles will the have to sell to break even?

The next interesting round will be the 7mm PRC.

Top right corner says 175 gr at 2,840 fps out of 24" barrel

Lookin' into that very prospect.

- 24" R5 1:8 twist stainless .270 Win. re-Bbl. for a M700.
(and some Unicorn RL-26 powder)




GR

They also could’ve twisted the WSM properly from the get-go, but there seems to be a lot of old idea boys working in the big companies. They really have to have their noses rubbed in it before they catch on. ‘Twas ever thus.

Around 2003 when the 270 WSM came out I don't think fast twists were even a thing at that point. I know I have a 1-8 barrel for my 270 WSM that's been sitting for awhile since I am stuck on the 150 Partitions, Accubonds and Bitterroots.... It'll get done eventually though.

Thinkin' the 165 gr. ABLR... backed up by a 170 gr. Partition - SD=317 / BC(G1)~.520 / MV ~2900 fps/24" Bbl.

Woof.




GR

Oh they were, just not in most factory rifles (or .270s)

The 7mm Creedmoor will be my next build. The 7-08 is a great cartridge, but combine that with the case design and logistics of the Creedmoor, and I think it'll be a sweet little package.

My only criticism of the cartridge drawing is the .011" (plus .002") over nominal bullet diameter freebore. The tolerance should have been more in line with the CM's tighter tolerance. It seems like the tighter the tolerance on the reamer spec, the greater the likelihood that most rifles will shoot very well.

The case capacity appears lower on the 6.8 looking at case drawings. So twist the WSM faster and still be able to use factory shelf ammo, then you can still run the heavy reloads . This sounds better than waiting on other companies to jump on board.

How many companies would be willing to jump in when the same outcome could be accomplished with a simple rebarrel?

I am all for more choices, not less, but realistically how great a chance is there for this to succeed?

I included the 6.5 PRC drawing for reference since they are extremely close in dimensions.

It's not just the twist. It's a whole bunch of stuff. The reamer geometry and case shape and length (and width) of the throat on SAAMI spec reamers, along with COL. The WSM was not designed to shoot ultra-long projectiles with high BC and high SD. Sure, you can cram them into the case, but the SAAMI reamers used for factory rifles and standard magazine length were designed to maximize performance for bullets 130-150gr.

This new cartridge uses a very similar case, but seeks to correct the flaws in the platform. It has a faster twist, longer (and narrower) free-bore, shallower leade angle (for high BC bullets), and most importantly, the max COL is 2.955", so standard magazines will allow for long bullets to be seated long, into a target-leade-taper.

Not to mention nomenclature dysfunction RE: ammo. (See 7mm Rem Express)

As for case capacity reduction?

See that as a plus.

More efficient/less intrusion given applicable long bullets.

Maybe 3 grn less(water)...?

Call it 63 grn/.270 WCF < 69 grn/6.8 W < 72 grn/.270 WSM... for a 150 gr. bullet.

So, one 3 grn jump over a .270 AI.

For 150-175 gr. loads... for me...?

Ideal.

Already budgeting for a M70 EW/SS (24" Bbl.) in 6.8 WESTERN.

8>)




GR

This doesn't quite have the capacity of the 270WSM (lacks about 10gr). It's got about 2 more than the 270 win so with a better (read efficient) case design we'll just have to see how it performs.

I've decided I'm just going to buy an 8-twist 270 Win barrel that is throated appropriately, and swap it out on current 270. Maybe next spring.

What bullet, speed are you thinking?

You want a shorter throat for long, sleek bullets, not a longer one.

"But it has to be NEW!"

The shooting industry is just as susceptible to the "newest and greatest" marketing strategy as any other. Fast-twist .270s will do well with us geeks but the low-information public won't pay attention like they would with a new chambering. This whiz-bang stuff doesn't really interest me; I enjoy available and affordable ammunition.

Honest question, wouldn't a longer free bore allow the longer bullets to be seated out further instead of intruding into the powder column? Seems like better case capacity, slower powders for overbore cartridges, less compressed loads, and lower pressures?

Bob

Sleek bullets with pointy noses have their ogive located further back than conventional bullets, so for a given OAL and distance from the lands sleek bullets require a shorter throat than bullets with more rounded nose profiles.

Said another way, with magazine length limiting how far out you can seat the bullet (when OAL is limited by mag length), pointy bullets require a much shorter throat to kiss the lands than round-nose bullets do. Or if mag length is not the limiting factor then there is limited case neck length to support the bullet, which also restricts OAL. Either way, when seating to longer and longer OAL, the more rounded the nose profile of the bullet, the sooner it hits the leade.

Good point Jordan. It was before I knew much other than a Krieger barreled 1-8 22-250 I got on accident made stuff fly when I hit them... that was my beginning of learning, RPMs count. Farese really drove it home when I started using BBCS.

This is great and all, but until bullet companies start asking a .277" round to shoot further, this cartridge (along with anything else in .277") will always be handicapped at longer ranges.

Even the .620 (.312 G7) B/C of that 165 ABLR isn't too impressive, considering its weight. That's assuming it is even an accurate B/C figure, knowing Nosler's reputation with jacking those numbers up.

I was thinking the same thing. Even the old 7mm 162 AM bests that ballistic performance.

Did a ballistic spreadsheet comparison b/t the ABLR's, 150gr./3100 fps v. 165gr./2950 fps.

Not much difference and the 150 shoots a little flatter.

The twist/RL-26 alone would allow the .270 Win to handle 150 AB/ABLR's at ~ 2900 fps.


Also did one on a fictitious 170 gr. NP at 2900 fps for the new cartridge.

It would be a beast, and don't think the .270 Win could push it fast enough to be useful, unless, as you mentioned, throated long.


This round seems to need really slick bullets to be useful, like the 175 gr. w/ BC(G1) in the .70's.

As mentioned, a .270 CM on steroids.




GR

That was my first thought, for a Freezer Queen M700 BDL.:

24" 1:8 twist .270 Win. with the 6.8 WESTERN throat, maybe AI.



Retro M40.




GR

It depends. They gave the CM a longer throat, so more of the bullet could be seated outside the case. Was that a mistake? The leade angle matters just as much. A long throat and steep leade don't allow long-tapered ogives any room. A short throat and a 1 degree, 30 minute leade angle, like the new "long range" rounds have, allow more room. A longer throat with the long leade allow long bullets to be seated in the neck of the case, thus increasing powder capacity, and potentially allowing for a more consistent powder burn. Magazine length ends up being the limiting factor.

IMO, yes it was a mistake. IME using a SAAMI reamer, the bearing surface of the 108 ELD has less than 1 caliber of shank (depending on lot number) in the neck of the 6mm Creedmoor when it contacts the lands. Using AIAW mags, I run out of neck long before running out of mag length. IMO the SAAMI 6mm Creedmoor throat length (considering the shallow leade angle) is not optimized for long, pointy 6mm bullets.

I think you may have mixed up your scenarios a bit. A short throat with steep leade doesn't allow rounded-nose bullets any room. A long throat with shallow leade angle doesn't allow long, pointy bullets to contact the lands before running out of magazine length (or if mag length is generous, then you run out of neck length to hold the bullet shank). I understand your point about longer throats, and this was a valid concern 20 years ago when bullets were shorter and more rounded than they are today. BobinNH used to chamber the 7RM with a long throat for just that reason (to seat the base of the bullet shank at the base of the case neck, often using NP or BBC bullets, IIRC). The point I was making is universal and does not "depend". When comparing bullets with long, pointy noses to bullets with more rounded noses, and assuming equal leade geometry, the pointy bullet needs a shorter throat to contact the lands at a given OAL than the rounded-nose bullet does.

It was called the 6.8 Browning right up to the time it was submitted to SAAMI.

I’ve been kicking around 7GPC too. Bought an 8” Hawk Hill sporter contour last year so it’s ready to go.

Interesting.

All under the FN Herstal roof.




GR

Sounds nuts but I keep thinking a 358Creedmoor would allow a 200 or 225gr AB to be seated to 2.8" unlike a 358winchester

That 165gr ABLR at 2900-3000 is suitable for anything that walks from 8-800 yards, all with very manageable recoil.

There is nothing in North America I wouldn’t shoot with it (although I would not choose it for big bears) and nothing in Africa I wouldn’t shoot with it if legal.

It’s basically like shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with 175s but with less recoil in a more efficient package. That’s about as close as you can get to the mythical “one rifle/one bullet for everything” combo. I’m intrigued.

U

Will a 1/10 spin that 165 ABLR....?
I have a seriously accurate .270win that’s 1/10 and would consider trying them if it will stabilize........

Rumor, that I never got confirmed, is that max coal was set to fit Browning's requirements.

Not a chance.

MAYbe the 150 gr. ABLR... but have heard instability from several that have run it through a 1:10 Bbl.




GR

The 270 W doesn't get the the bullet out fast enough to benefit the high bc.

Just twist the 270 WSM right. This 6.8 is just doing things backwards from someone who is bored in life.

If you re-throat/re-twist the .270 WIN to accommodate both the longer, high BC bullets, as well as the 3.60" Remington long action magazine?

You can get w/in a grain or so loaded of the new 6.8W, or ~ 2.5 grs. loaded of the .270 WSM.


Plenty.




GR

Trouble with the 270 WSM is the SAAMI length is set at 2.86" OAL, which is not optimum for the new wave of high BC hunting bullets (165 ABLR, 170 EOL, 175 TGK).

Another problem would be theoretical 165-175gr factory ammo for a 270 WSM being shot in standard 1:10 twist rifles, it will shoot awful at best. Lots of angry uninformed customers blaming Winchester online. It makes more sense to design a new cartridge from the ground up and offer it with rifles and ammo that works well. That's what Winchester is doing

Winchester is synonymous with the .277, it makes perfect sense to stay away from the Browning name here.

I disagree. People need to be treated like adults, and then expected to behave like adults. There are several cartridges for which there are lots of different standard twist rates. The 223/5.56 is a perfect example. If you have a 1:12, most bullets over 60 grains won't shoot for schit. How much have the ammo companies had to argue with people who bought ammo with 77g bullets and tried to shoot it in their 1:12 Colt?

It would have been simple and easy to offer the WSM in 1:8 twist, then marked the ammo "fast twist" or " for 1:8 barrels only", and put out a press release describing the new standard twist and new ammo specs.

as I speculated in a thread about the new Savage straight pull, the purpose of these innovations is NOT to get a bullet to travel from the hunter's gun to the deer's vitals. It is to get cash to travel from the hunter's wallet to the company's bottom line.

I hope many of you buy this so some folks in the gun industry get a nice bonus this year.

shoot good!

No one is getting a bonus from this [bleep] of a cartridge/rifle release. People can't get ammo for the rifles they have now. Winchester won't be making any new friends here.

They had to put warning labels on Tide Pods and release celebrity public safety announcements to NOT eat them, and you expect the average American to even know what barrel twist is and how it relates to ammo choice?

You don't seem to know what a psyop is. Doesn't matter for this discussion. YES, I DO expect the average gun owner to learn some important specifics about his firearm. There are nearly an endless list of people to ask, if the person doesn't know how to accomplish this task, and some of them will give the right answer.

You drive with these people every time you get on the road. Like I said in my post: people need to be treated like adults, and then expected to act like results. Unless you don't think we should be allowed to drive, or own guns, or even manage our own finances. We should just wear diapers, and sit all day in front of screens.

I suspect that they did this to out-Hornady Hornady. Look at the past- H is always doing this kind of crap to other people's cartridges. They did it to deny H the 270 PRC.

Not sure that Hornady would want to dilute demand for the 6.5 PRC, but who knows.
Either way, it’s a tough time to introduce a new chambering when you can’t even keep up with the demand for existing offerings.

True @AKwolverine. But first to market in a caliber niche is significant most of the time. What I mean is look at what Hornady did with the RCM's to Winchester, what they just recently did to Alexander Arms with their 6mm ARC. Well this time it got turned around on them and, looking at the numbers, I'd go with the Western if I was in the market for a new rifle (which I am not, because I have a 325 WSM to hunt with).

Odd,a 165gr .270 and the BC isn't even over .700. There are plenty of bullets already in the .500 - .700 range for various calibers. Not sure what this brings to the table?

The 6.5s in creed and prc will kill everything in NA, and do it flatter with less deflection and recoil. Not sure the point of this new round.

What need was there for the 6.5 creed or prc. The calibers before would kill anything on the planet. Next. Edk

The 30-06 is 100 years older than the Creedmoor and will kill everything in NA (and the world). The 6.5x55 is 15 years older than that, and will mimic the performance of the Creedmoor. Kind of makes your post seem ridiculous to look at facts.

6.5x55 isnt a round I can commonly find and the 30-06 has higher recoil and much more wind drift.

Anybody shootin' one of these, yet?




GR

Exactly. I had a Creed set up for 140 VLD’s. Regular factory ammo had to be set back a bit to chamber.

But the VLD round, fitting the box mag, resulted in a shorter than normal throat. Not a problem for me. Future owner may have some heartburn.

DF

I was just in a store that had 20+ boxes of the Browning 175 TGKs... pretty neat looking little devil. I kinda like the sounds of the 175 running around 2800 or so. I’m betting it’ll be a helluva game Bullet since it isn’t ever going to be hitting at warp speeds.

I too was in a store in Alabama and they had several boxes of Browning ammo on the shelf's but I did not notice what bullet weight.

My latest 270 Win barrel has a 1-9 twist and is 22” long. The throat length is increased to an OAL of a hair less than 3.5”.
It will move an old 170 Speer at 2730 AND I haven’t yet tried R26.

Someone wrote earlier that high BC bullets need more velocity. Apparently he hasn’t heard of the 6.5 CM.

I will keep using my ancient 270 Win until it starts failing.

Winchesters won't start hitting the shelves till May at the earliest,Brownings not till November...I just ordered 1:7.5 twist barrel,Ti action,stock,bottom metal,mag box and trigger along with a reamer and am going to have one made up with good quality components and roll with it

Agree. I have a 1-8 270 wsm and oal is something like .1 longer with berger 170 to lands than matrix vld and ablr and .2 longer than something like ballistic tip

I like what you’ve got going on! I just had a 1-7.5 Krieger dropped at the house. Waiting on a Deviant in a few more months and that’ll become my 27 Nosler. I’ve been really thinking of 1-7.5’ing my 270 WSM as well.

No Flys on the 270 WSM, it’s design was way ahead of its time, give Winchester the credit it justly deserves. I reload for mine and it’s performance is excellent,fast twist it and buy your own Custom reamer and your off to the races and you won’t be under powered . 270 WCF,270 WSM or 270 BEE , let them run !!!.

Don't really consider the .270 WCF "under-powered."

Even w/ the pokey ole 150 gr. Speer Grand Slam at a little over 2800 fps at the muzzle, it still carries 1250 ft-lbs at 400 yards.

...and the 140 gr. TSX at a little over 2900 fps, out to 500.


Would like to see a .277/170 gr. Nosler Partition.




GR

What would @BobinNH have said?

Fortunately it looks like we’ll soon start seeing a bunch of improved .277 bullets I guess & suppose I’ll order an 8 twist someday

Hard tellin I guess but he ran enough twist on his 270 Wins to try those newer Bullets. He’d have a hard time giving up his 130 BBCs I’d bet though.

If only for conversation and because Facts matter,the 264 Kreedmire simply makes 1250ft lbs at 600yds,if only to your Drooling chagrin. Hint.



A .277/170 NPT would do farrrrrrrrrr worse,but it would recoil more and be louder in a 270Win,if such things horn you Fhuqktards up. Congratulations?!? Hint.

'Course an itty-bitty 21" 7-08 will "only" do same to the 800yd line. Hint.



You CLUELESS Fhuqking Droolers are a Hoot!

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...............

I need to run the numbers for a properly twisted .270 with some of the new high BC offerings. I’d like to build one just because the .270 seems to offend so many folks.😂😂

John

Those realities,are what makes the .277" soooooo very fhuqking HILARIOUS! Do it and spare no details. Hint.(grin)

Do NOT "forget" perspective either,like a .264" Hornie 147's .697BC and a Booger .277" 170's .662 version of same. Then extrapolate case capacity,to muzzle velocity and swing for the fhuqking fence. Hint.

LAUGHING!...............

Is there something inherently and mathematically "poor" about the .277" diameter that does not lend itself to high B/C bullets, or has there never been interest in making anything other than standard B/C bullets in that diameter?

That is to say: Has the .270 Win (or WSM or WBY or whatever) never been asked to perform at long range?

A long-throated, 1:8 twist .270 Win., pushin' a 150 gr. ABLR, would simply make 1250ft lbs at 750yds.

Mind your bib, sport.




GR

Funny how it was considered a long range option for many decades. It was always considered a hunting round first, similar to the 25s I believe. Maybe it was the proliferation of range finders that drove it into less than what is considered long range these days.

I might add that of the long range options the 270 is the only one that was never a military caliber. Maybe that had something to do with it. 6.5, 7mm, 308, and even .338 have been military options.

The std. 1:10 twist - keeps the BC's in the hunting range.




GR

Creedmoorization which is like Californication but of the cartridge industry.

ANY caliber bullet CAN be designed for a desired BC, but some just haven’t yet. The SAAMI specified twist rate for the .270 Win and Wby are 1:10 so no really high BC bullets were designed for them simply because they won’t stabilize them. High BC .277 bullets are starting to show up now, thanks largely to new cartridges that have a fast enough twist rate to accommodate them, but they still haven’t caught up to the 6.5s, 7s or .308s yet. I predict we’ll be there before long.

John

At identical launch speeds the higher BC always wins, but you knew that. If you want to compare the 6.5 Creedmoor with the 147 to the .270 Win with the 170 EOL, the Creedmoor will pull ahead there too... But not until the 1540 yard line...

John

It was designed for the shorter bullets of its time.
The bullets and twist.
With the Weatherby being the only other option in that caliber,
It was twisted the same.

So, no one wanted to make bullets that wouldn't work in the barrels available.

In turn no one made barrels for bullets that didn't exist.



25 caliber has the exact same quandry.

The problem is, the larger the caliber, the heavier the bullet has to be to match the b.c's of the calibers before it. Then you need an even larger case to bring the velocity back up. That's why I've never been a fan of .30 cal etc. By the time you get into the high b.c. 30 cal bullets, you're pushing a lot of weight compared to a 6 or 6.5mm. If you're into magnums etc, then fine....

The 270 WSM is a fantastic cartridge. Rick Jamison had patents on it and successfully sued Olin/Winchester for patent infringement.

I don't know all of the details of the settlement, but it was believed that Jamison may have gotten royalties for every rifle sold that was a "WSM".

The 6.8 Westerner will save Winchester/Browning from paying Jamison in the future by tweeking a great cartridge and making it more useful for today's trends of shooting higher BC bullets.....just a thought.

Dan

I hate myself knowing I’ll eventually buy one simply because I currently have variations of .270 from Win to WSM to Weatherby. I’m too curious even though it’s a re-tread of nearly every other .270 but able to use higher BC bullets which in 45 hunting years has not made a single bit of difference in the game I’ve taken. I’ve set up several guns for 800yd plus shots and end up selling them because I like to hunt close more than shoot far.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.9UGQZVsBq1OIQ6BP5UwyDQHaEo?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

You guys gonna piss off Ol bacon throat!! He’ll be googlin BC’’s and runnin numbers all night!! Haha 😂😂

Poseur Larry has graph charts taped all over his trailer walls, covered in moly fingerprints.

So the 6.8 Westin is a wsm retread . Wow

Cool I guess. When I was into shooting antelope, deer and elk way out there (450 yards or so) the regular 270 with 150 grain Partitions, Hotcors and Spire points seem to do a fine job. A guy should be able to get that close to an animal before he takes a shot. For long range target shooting aren't there already plenty of options? Say a properly twisted 280 AI? Many others also.

A redesign using proven pieces to get the desired outcome....No need to reinvent the wheel. Did you look at the pic in the link I posted pretty obvious differences

What about the 6.8 SPC?

Who adopted it? As far as I can tell it was an experiment that some special forces members wanted, but didn't get picked up by the military.

Gonna stick with the 270 bee I have. Pushing a 150 grain with a .528 bc at an honest 3300. Maybe a newbie cartridge can do better but not to much at any reasonable range. Edk

The country of Jordan uses it in their Steyr AUG. Maybe a few others...

I looked at the SAAMI specs and what do I see? A 7mm Rem SAUM neck down to 0.277". When the WSM and SAUM were new on the market, the "experts" said the SAUM case was better for short actions then the WSM. I guess this proves they're were right, 15+ yr later. The 7mm SAUM w/ 8" twist seems to be having a resurgence amongst the LRH group w/ those 185+gr. high BC bullets. Olin/FN didn't have to look very far for their "new" cartridge, did they? -Mark

It’s a cool design. Hoping to see more bullets follow and keep pace.

Can't tell if that's a complaint or just an observation or jealousy from a 7mm fan

Mike

I’ve been begging weatherby for a new twist on the 7 wby mag

That's a re-barrel away I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on a factory job.



Mike

If I was in the market for a 3” magnum cartridge it would be the 6.5 PRC all the way. IMO better design and better selection of light to heavy weight bullets. In addition currently offered in and will be in the future offered by several more rifle manufacturers and custom rifle makers. I see the Western as a distant memory over time. Just my opinion.

I always thought the 6.8 Western was going to be a necked down 7x57 case to 6.8. Maybe that was the original intention but apparently not now ?

kwg

This says all you need to know about the 6.8 Western. There is NOTHING special about it whatsoever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSlIfWopj4U

I’m sill waiting to see what the 277 fury will do out of 22,24,26” tubes
It pushes 140 at 2950 From 16”.
308 case length and 80,000 psi.
There has to be reason why the military keeps choosing 27 cal. 6.8 SPC and now the fury. Obviously something has to be there.
Either way. I’m going to keep my old faithful 270 win. Been working longer than I’ve been alive.

The something being there part of your statement no doubt would require more scrutiny.
Maybe a brown bag with a sandwich or something?

The guy in that video is a [bleep] moron. I've seen him lie through his teeth dozens of times. [bleep] him.

Never before has .007” caused some so much grief!!!
The same people bragging about 7 mm can’t stand .270 finally getting the attention by gunmakers and bullet makers that have long been lacking.

Had a 6.8 Western built

Terminus Apollo Lite Ti Actions, AG Composites stock,Triggertech Diamond trigger, Wyatts extended mag box and 7.5 twist Hells Canyon Armory carbon barrel, Tangent Theta 3x15 Scope

Factory Winchester 165 accubond ammo chronograph at 2975 on LabRadar
It’s a shooter also

LIKE 👍🏼


🦫

X2. Sweet rifle.

Yes their is something special about it and that is the fadt twist rate and the ability to shoot longer high BC bullet in .277 diameter

dvdegeorge,
How are you liking the terminus ti? Don’t hear too much about them …
Sweet build.

So far so good nice action