I found a few Savage long range hunters for sale, and can choose between these two.

Which would you choose?

7mm RM.

7mm Rem Mag

7mm for me, simply because componants are much easier to procure locally. I hate being forced to mail-order.

I'm sure the ballistics between the two can be micro-parsed down to the red c**t hairs, and they probably will be here shortly, but for myself the choice would hinge on the very easy "stuff" for the 7 mag.

Oh. One more thing. If a 6.5-.284 requires fireforming the brass then that'd really seal the deal. Can't abide by the waste of time and money in fireforming brass. Just IMHO. I've got a rifle I have to form for and it drives me batty every time it's time for new brass, just seems wasteful.

David,

Owning and shooting both and just recently building a 7mm mag.

I wished I had built another 6.5-284 instead of the 7mm mag.

Lapua 6.5-284 brass all the way.

Lighter recoil and the ability to really do anything the 7 can do seals it for me.

The 6.5 is easier to load accurate for me as well.

Pretty easy choice for me. 6.5-284 all the way, You dont need to fireform as you can get Lapua brass, very easy to make shoot.

6.5x284 of those two hands down. The big 7mms have issues with fliers now and then too.... you get premade GREAT brass with a 6.5x284, great projectiles, accurate case, whats not to like there?

I have both and like them both. The 6.5-284 brass doesn't have to be formed. Available from Norma and Lapua, the latter probably the better of the two. The 6.5-284 is a more efficient round and although both are very accurate, I'd give the edge to the 6.5-284. I guess it just depends what you want it to do. One can crank out more performance with the 7mm RM. They each have their strong points and their individual fan clubs. If you're a factory load type, go with the 7mm RM or a .270. Both 7mm RM and 6.5-284 are easy to reload.

DF

both, i have a 7mag with 168 bergers i shoot weekly, having a new 6.5x284 built as we speak,, ,,

300stw,

Are they both hunting wt. sporters or heavy target guns and what will be your planned utilization of the two?

DF

Hard choice between the 7Rm and the 6.5x284. I have both. Both kill stuff well enough. Good bullets are available for both. I would probably have to go with the 7 if I could not have both.

the 6.5 8lb all up ready to go, the 7 weighs 9 lbs all up,,,the 7 hols .5 moa out to 1000 yds pretty easy,,,will see about the 6.5 pretty soon,,,,

i have two of each. the 7mm mag sendero kicks less than the 6.5 -284 sendero because it has a vais break. i would not be able to decide. just wish had had a break put on the 6.5 .

I built a 6.5-06, same velocity. I really liked it and wrote and article in The Varmint Hunter about it. It didn't do anything earth shattering, but shoot flat and accurate. I built a 7mm mag too and loved the longer reach with a heavier bullet. Both worked exceptionally well, but are far from equal. For target shooting and fun with medium game, the 6.5 rules. For serious big game and long reach, the 7mm is a better tool by quite a stretch. Never had any problems with "fliers". That isn't the fault of the caliber ;o) Flinch

Application?

Couldn't think of a question,that Salvage answers with a straight face............

Surprise, a Savage hater.

Must be tough to face the fact that Savage has continually improved their wares and are now beating their competitors in both quality and price.

I don't think Big Stick necessarily hates Savages, he's just messing with you. I think he likes the Kimber Montana, which I do, too. I don't own any Savages, but looked at one today. A friend just bought a Savage 116FCSS in .270. It has the AccuStock and AccuTrigger. Both, innovative ideas. Fit and finish aren't much, but it looks like a real functional rifle. The action works smooth and I wouldn't bet against it shooting good groups. I believe it was out of the door at a little over $600. This guy bought a lot of rifle for the dollar.

DF

Savage is easily the most bang for the buck and there is no doubt it will be a shooter.

If I was many thousands of dollars invested in custom Remingtons I might be a little defensive too, I guess.

I almost made up this same exact thread last week. I have a 25-06 for the small stuff so I don't need another medium size game snuffer. I'm won't be saying that the 6.5 won't do for elk, however I will say that many states have a .270 diameter restriction on elk and bigger size game. 6.5 ammo isn't loaded by the factory as far as I know. This means that finding ammo for it in a pinch would be a pinch in the glutes.

This has me leaning towards the 7mm rem mag for this application. That said that the secret service used this round for a number of years and then suddenly switched over to the 300 win mag. Apparently the big 300's are really easy to get to shoot well. Either that or they just needed something that would punch through a tank. In addition the last time that I looked more records were held by 300's than by 7mm's. Then again better bullets are coming out for the 7mm on a yearly basis. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a thousand different types of bullets available for the 7mm by now. (slight hyperbole).

My vote goes to a 7mm or 300 magnum for ammo availability, magnum power, and accuracy.

Although I have rifles worth many multiples of the Savage 116, I still like it. For a knock around rifle to throw in the truck and not worry about, it would be hard to beat. And all SS and synthetic, it wouldn't rust (not very fast, anyway). With just a bit of care it would serve one well for many years.

DF

Facts interest me,always have.

I can think of no Maker that's warranted more continual improvement,than Salvage.

Handy that [bleep] floats,as they make fair to middlin' life rings............

Looks like you've probably shot a recent vintage Savage, which is what steers you away from comments other than vagaries.

People love to waste money but you have to spend double to beat a Savage.

One of the folks thats done the research and verified fliers is none other than G David Tubb....

I have yet to have my 7x300 wtby settle down to solid accuracy without a flier now and then too.....

Ask many competitive shooters out there why they are NOT running 7mm and the answer is unexplained fliers... 6.5 does not produce them. Why? I have no clue and why the 7 does I have no clue, doesn't make sense, but then sometimes target accuracy is more demanding than what hunters demand.

I asked Butch Searcy the same question back in the 80's and he said the same thing rost says....with the same reasons....he did not know why but theorized it was just bullets;it being maybe more difficult to make target grade 7mm bullets.

Maybe important to match shooters in strings of shots,but I don't see the same tendency in hunting rifles,and have never observed this with hunting bullets;nor has it ever been an issue for ne with hunting rifles in 7mm.

Just a shame that you never use them

Easy there, rockchuck, Big Stick may have sensitive feelings...

DF

Whooping a Salvage,is akin to sneaking up on a glass of water. Turd polishers gotta tell themselves sumptin' and that never ain't not funny.

You're on an Epic roll...............

Summons all of your Imagination and try to fabricate where you think I'm mistaken.

It'll be funny!...................

been shooting a 7mm RM for over 20 years. Never had a wild flier that wasn't my fault... It shoots like this when I do my part.

168 Bergers @ 3040fps here at 4650 asl
Factory rifle

Good group. From your name, could we assume that your 7mm RM is a Sendero? I have a close friend who has Sendero's in .270 and 7mm RM. Both are tack drivers and he loves them both. Here in Louisiana, he uses the .270 most and is deadly with that gun. It's a bit heavy to pack around, but it shoots so good, he doesn't mind the freight. He shot a Pronghorn in New Mexico last year at near 400 yds. Antelope was DRT. Those things are easy to kill, not so easy to hit.

I see you're using Retumbo. Good powder. I've worked up loads with it for my .257 WM. It and RL-25 were the top two performers in that caliber. Looks like it's working pretty well for you.

DF

Montucky 7 Whizzum..................

Yes, it is a factory Sendero, original model. Put an aftermarket trigger on it, bedded the action and had the crown trued up.

Retumbo is very temp stable and works well for me. Taken many critters with it....

85 1/4 " B&C speed goat at 386...

Ya pulled one.....

I should go Decaf and try a bench with a rest sometime.

Hasty MPAJ will only do so much..................(grin)

Sendero,

Great speed goat. Good looking hunting associate holding the big rifle.

Big Stick,

Fine 7 Whizzum group. What did it measure? Looks like .3" or maybe less. No telling what it would have been without that "flyer". What bullets are you shooting?

DF

7wsm seems to be the anomoly once you get in 7mm past 284 speeds basically.

But then again we shot at 1000 yards, 7mms are not the thing, and we shoot from 15 up to 22 plus shots that have to stay in a group...

I don't follow 1000 yard BR that much but IIRC you don't see a lot of 7mms in that game either.

anyone can post 100 or 300 yard groups, talking long range when you post composite 1000 yard groups thats where the issues manifest themselves.

Of course some folks are probably much better shots than David Tubb. Me, I tend to listen when David speaks. He's only a few national XC and LR champs under the belt....

thanks Dirt...

that was 5 years ago... he is now 12 and hooked hard on hunting. He got his first goat and deer this year... many PD's and coyotes before, the boy can shoot !

Nice video.

A rare day in Wy.? No wind??

Fun to watch the kids get hooked on this hunting and shooting stuff..you`ll have a partner for life.

Rost, are those flyers you are referring to supposed to be limited to the 7RM or all 7mms?
I have not been seing any wild flyers from the guys running 284wins at the f-class matches I have attended. The 7WSM does not seem to hold any flyers with the heavy bullets as far as I can find.
I shot the best 1000 yard group I ever shot with a 7RM in a hunting rifle no less. Truthfully, it was one of them anomalies. I have never been able to repeat that group at 1K with anything. I did find the 7RM to be a bit finicky until I started taking more care with my brass. I have not had a problem since I started using a false shoulder and creating a crush fit when I fireform.

That was a great article and remember reading it before I knew you here at the Campfire.

To bad though you didn't have 123 Scenars, 130 S2's, and 140 VLD's.

I can take the 6.5 and make it do anything my 7 can do, in the LR hunting field.

Rost, here is a snipet from an interview from Bryan Litz on the South Australian f-class site where he talks about the inherent precision of the 6.5 vs the 7mm.

" Consider the 6.5mm vs 7mm debate. The consensus seems to be that the 6.5mm is inherently more precise than the 7mm�s, probably due to the effects of recoil on the platform and shooter. However the 7mm is a better ballistic performer, so there�s a trade-off.

Bryan is another person I would tend to believe in addition to David.

Full interview: http://www.safclass.com.au/celebrity3.html

I would argue for the 6.5x284-better brass and no rim.

Sendero,
Great video! That youngster can shoot.

Dave

Not to mention a better ES as well.

So, what's the do-all load for the 6.5x284?

Take your pick Dave,

123 Scenars, 130 S2's, and 140 VLD's

I just bought a few hours ago, from here, a Sako A7 25-06 that's will be converted to a 6.5-284

In my rifle, 58g H1000 with 140g Bergers/JLK.

I think SU has a good load with Magnum.

I had better velocity/SD with powders slower than H4831. (H4831 seems to be THE powder for this caliber with F-class/BR guys).

my 7mm load is in the single digits for SD and ES... can't get much better.

No doubt.

No polishing needed, Savage delivers out of the box.

I have a few that do just that but I take your avoiding any particulars as further evidence.

7mm bullets have changed A LOT since the Tubb and Scearcy era. The 7mm's are doing well in competition now days. I have had a pile of them in the last few years. Only one didn't shoot under MOA consistently and it was a full blown custom. It would only hold MOA. I take that back, I did have a Ruger that would only do 4 MOA...talk about a turd. I had a factory BDL that would shoot in the 3's very consistently with 140 grain ballistic tips. I didn't get fliers....still don't. But you have to look at what those guys considered "fliers". If a bullet went out of the group .002, it was considered a flier. 99.999% of us would never be good enough or burn enough powder in a rifle to notice such "idiosyncrasies". I don't do BR matches, so the .002 "flier" phenomenon doesn't interest me. Neither do the "pressure spikes" that are so often quoted buy people that never had pressure gauges or the ability to read them correctly. I use a little pixie dust in with my powder and don't experience such things. Flinch

David,

I use my sporter wt. 6.5-284 for hunting and like the 140 SST with 52.3 gr. Vv 165, Lapua brass and Fed Gm215M primers. This gun is a blueprinted, Borden bump Pre-64 with a heavy sporter 26" Krieger Match grade SS, pillar bedded with Jewell trigger. This load shoots at about 2,950 fps with tight S.D.'s. Best 3 shot group so far at 100 yds was in the teens. It will shoot 1/2" all day long.

DF

Never measured it. Was gunning a zero and shooting comeups.

162A-Max..............

What particulars would you like to hear,in regards to the pieces of [bleep]?...............

Any that reside somewhere other than your imagination.

Cite the slot where their gunned as a Hard Use Rifle.

There goes the rest of your life.................

Like how you try to turn it around.

Which models have you owned/shot? What broke on them, under hard use?

I stated a simplistic fact,which you are more than a bunch uncomfortable with...because it's a fact. Fire up your Imagination and really air it out.

Laffin'.................

You sidestep well and reliably.

I shoot and you only talk about it.

I've never been anything but chin up,chest out and breaking trail. You feel free to tell yourself,that which you most desperately need to hear.

Points awarded for saying it aloud...because it'll be hilarious!...................

That is 5 or 6 in a row.

You deserve a pat on the head and you've earned me stooping to do it.

Far more than 6 successive facts,to your incessant whine.

I'm more than a touch comfy with the odds and much look forward to you cranking that Imagination up.

Shoot for the stars toots.

Laffin!...................

Pat pat pat.

Didn't notice the OP spec'ing an extreme-conditions rifle.

Allow her to wax eloquent on Fairweather Pursuits and those "results".

It'll be as equally funny..................

I'd quote what I've done with the same Savage you've 'broken', but you haven't broken one.

Dunno what that even means.

I'm just calling BS on you making a big deal out of Savage's lack of nasty condition prowess, when it wasn't even on the OP's radar.

Let the dude have his thread....

Extractors,ejectors,triggers.

Fuel that Imagination up and take it for a Hot Lap.............

You've an uncanny knack for talking out your azz,about things you've never seen,let alone done. If you shot a rifle 1 time for every 1,000,000 times you have your mouth,you'd perhaps have your first clue. I dig how your Imagination will take you places that don't exist,with 100% reliability. It's IMPRESSIVE,the ease in which you take stupid places it ain't been before.


Allow me to bait yet another hook for your dumbazz.................

Well I know a couple of folks that had the ability and setup to test pressures... I don't disbelieve them.

And yes David ran a 7mm a number of years back. But even at that time Bergers were around. Its bergers as one of the ones I'm having issues with in a 7x300 right now. Plus a couple of others. I"m not saying things haven't changed and you aren't right nowdays, but I still don't see anything much past a 7x08 or 284 in the competition lines, which still backs what Tubb and a couple of other national champions said... get over a certain speed and things just ain't quite right more than 99% of the time with a 7mm.

That didn't stop me from trying, but it seems so far that they are still right today vs bullets and the fast 7s.... again, 7wsm seems to be the one anomoly aand that does NOT seem to make sense at all to me.

Rugers are turds no matter how they shoot....

I've never shot BR either.... I wouldn't consider 002 a flier, but I do consider 0.5 to 1.0 moa or more out of the group to be a considerable flier. Amazingly its almost always been a vertical issue too.

Jeff

6.5 X284 for shooting paper and 7mm mag for putting meat in the freezer.

Groovin' on the awkward silence,afforded by the resident Do-nothin' dumbphuck and her newfound friend..................

Unless you by a Marlin "X" gun.
Then you spend 1/2 as much as a Savage and get groups 50% smaller.

I have read of the 7 Mag having flyers, I just have not experienced them since 1978 with the loads that I shoot in my factory Rem 700.

I would expect that some powders/primer/bullet combo's in any caliber might have flyers.

I have shot kegs of IMR 4350, with Rem Brass, and 9 1/2 primers with 140,150, and 160g slugs. I'm now shooting Retumbo with fed 215's with 162's at 3100 fps. Hard to believe that the 140 and 150's shoot such tiny groups with all that "air space" left over in the case....makes a strong case for the 7 Short Mag.

I've never been a Savage fan. I've seen plenty of them that shoot well, but I've never been able to warm up to them. I hate the "combination bolt stop / sear" concept. I detest their trigger geometry. I don't like the jiggly rear baffle thingy whose function could be duplicated by just using a good bolt shroud design. The whole rifle was designed for ease of manufacturing and low retail price. However, as much as it pains me to say it, I have to admit, they do make a decent factory tube, specifically on their heavy profile varmint rigs.

I can think of one application where I think they are actually a pretty good choice: prairie rat extermination.

I like to shoot pd's a couple times a year in late spring. The places I shoot in NM have pretty large pd towns such that I can setup a bench in the morning and shoot all day long without moving from a fixed location. On a good weekend at my best honey holes, I'll burn up 2500 - 3000 rounds. Barrels get a bit toasty when the action is at its peak, and it doesn't take too many such trips before significant throat erosion develops. Savage's varmint rigs are great for this purpose because they're the least expensive to rebarrel and you don't have much $ tied up in the whole rig. So you're less concerned about abusing them when you really have to keep the brass flying to fight back an organized offensive of vicious, toothy rodents.

I haven't had ANY experience with fliers...at all in 7mm mag, unless the rifle just plain doesn't shoot anything well. It is hard to determine fliers when they all fly all over the place ala Ruger. Like I said, I have only had two rifles that wouldn't shoot. Even the custom I had built made nice round groups, they were just too big for my liking, but a 5-10 shot group was always right around an inch and very circular. I have stacks of groups in the .2's with a couple of 7mm mags. I torched the barrels in them shooting long range rock chucks, but they were amazing while they were running strong! They puked at about 1,100 rounds of hard shooting. I wasn't kind to the barrels and seriously burned/blistered my fingers on the barrels numerous times. I had several days where I was shooting 40-50 rounds an hour through the 7mm mag. They get a bit hot ;o). I shoot little more than 140 ballistic tips 140 Sierras, 162 Amax's, 139 BTSP's and 162 grain Hornady BTSP's. I have not dabbled with the Bergers. I don't feel they are worth the expense when so many other bullets at under half the price do twice as much. I'm not calling anyone a liar, I guess my pixie dust powder mixture is working ;o) Flinch

The bergers driven at 3100fps is where I get flyer's..Much like the highly toted 300 grain VLD that came out nose diving when pushed to 3000fps. I'm told they have remedied this with the 300's, dunno about the 168 7mm's, I gave up and went to 162's and have had no problems.

My first rifle was a Savage. Bought it because it was cheap, and I was a poor kid. Was never impressed with the finish. Horrible bluing, machine marks, casting seams on parts, and that was just the cosmetics. The action is too long for most scope base/ring combos, and I think their factory barrels are dogcrap.

I toasted 2 throats and it was an '06. I shot it a lot, but not that much. I think the steel must be cheap or something. They are fine guns if you restock them, refinish the steel, and put on a new tube. Otherwise, you are lying to yourself...

And buy extractors by the gross..

Concerning flyers,

Back when the 105's in 6mm were being developed, Bill Davis of Aberdine Proving Grounds took pictures of the 105's as they exited the barrel, some of the boat tails were being deformed due to rotational stresses.

This probably explains some of the flyers. Bullets with thicker bases would not have this issue of flyers.

......Savage = you can't polish a turd...period! Flinch

As with the Savage, turds don't need polishing. They are what they are.

DF

I have not dabbled with the Bergers. I don't feel they are worth the expense when so many other bullets at under half the price do twice as much. I'm not calling anyone a liar, I guess my pixie dust powder mixture is working ;o) Flinch



i am paying about 37.00 per 100 for berger 168, where canI find these other bullets mentioned for 1/2 price of the bergers, i would like to invest in some

Amaxs are $22 a hundred in my area. I bought them for $15 last year. I have some with the price tag of $8 on them. You just need to shop around. Flinch

i would like to find them at those prices locally, shipping always kills me,,, i am paying 32-37 per 100 for 7mm amax up here in montana

Ouch...that truly sucks. That make factory loads look pretty good sometimes ;o)Flinch

I don't mean to pick a fight with anybody, truly I don't. But being a lefty shooter, we just don't have all the options, gun-wise, that you righty's have. Our choices have always been limited, moreso in the old days, not quite as bad now, but still nowhere's like a righty enjoys. I've got lefty Savages, they shoot fine. I've got a lefty Ruger that never much impressed me, but that could just be me, too. Some people are impressed with some rifles, and I might be impressed and own one, too, if they made a left-handed model. I don't live in Alaska and am not out in all the bad weather Big Stick is, and I don't shoot as much as he does. Different people have both different needs and different demands of their equipment. I try to listen to people, even those who choose differently than myself, so that I might learn something. I've been reading Big Stick, in a different forum, and now because of it I'm looking to pick up a synthetic/ss rifle, not because I need it here, but because someday I might need it somewhere, and he makes good sense in that regard. My prob is, once again, it has to be a lefty. So the choices available to Big Stick aren't necessarily available to me. Although I am looking at a Ruger laminate/ss, which almost seems as close as I could get to something Big Stick might approve of. Or maybe not. I've got Savages, Remmies, and Marlins. I run what I can, on a variety of different criteria. I don't say what I shoot is The End-of-the-World Best, but right now it works for me, and I'm always open to suggestions and observations.

I was just readiing another thread on a similar issue elsewhere, and I took a look at the Montana Rifle Company page. They show an Xtreme Weather Rifle, but it's not out in lefty yet, although they say lefty versions will be available in the near future. The prices aren't all that bad compared to rifles from the usual suspects. Mebbeso I'll keep an eye on them and wait for them to come out in a lefty version.