I will start with, I have no interest in getting any of these at this time. Excluding the price of brass, which do you think is the best performer? Looking at a balance of recoil, accuracy, barrel life, and range. As easy at it is to say .300 UM or WM, I got to shoot an UM not too long ago, and even though the recoil wasn't as bad as I thought, I can't see shooting 5+ rounds through it being 'fun'. On the other side, the 30-30 is very low recoil, but it's performance isn't near its fellow 30 cals, except in heavy brush. The 30-06 is great, but it's performance isn't really as good as i'de like either. I personally think the .300 Win Mag and the .308 Norma Mag are the best rounded, but, some say the Norma has better performance, some say the Win Mag, so assuming they have identical ballistics, what are the other features? Identical recoil, 300 Win Mag has one extra grain of powder from what i've read but gets no performance boost from it, the only noticeable difference is the neck length, with the Norma's slightly longer. But is being able to seat bullets slightly deeper really a noticeable advantage?

I really enjoy learning new things about these kinds of things so anybody's input would be appreciated. I know I left out alot, the WSM, SAUM, 30-338, etc. but those are still easily contenders in my books. On a side note, I was doing some random exploration on google and found a wildcat, the 30-404 Jeff. If anyone knows anything about it i'de love to know, information on it is scarce. Although if I had to guess the barrel life on it would be horrendously short. Thanks for reading!

I'd say the SAUM, due to brass life. I prefer to avoid belted magnums. Also, the 30/06 pushing 155gr Bergers out of a 26in barrel is nothing to snear at.

Myself I'd go 300 Win Mag.But would also consider the 300 WSM and the 300 Roy.

Get a good .308. As in .308 Winchester.

308 norma mag,not the most popular,but will do anything the other 30's will do. Brass from Norma, or use 338 win mag,7mag,300 win mag, 300 H&H, all available and easy to get. Just my preference.

Had a pair of 300 WSM they both shot well but my next 300 will be a Weatherby. For now I am happy with my .338 WM for now.

Lonie at Hornady has proven beyond doubt that shorter necks cause barrels to wear faster. Maybe twice or three times as fast. With that being said, I would recommend the .300 Weatherby. It uses less powder than the RUM and can easily get more velocity than the .300 WM.

The .30-06 is never a mistake.....

Huh, I never knew that. Thanks for the info!

I like your posts better when you include pictures.

Can you please elaborate on this...............would be interesting to know!!!

+1, I'd like to hear more on that also.

The 30-404 is a 300 Dakota

If I could on mobile, I would.

I knew the parent case of the 7mm Dakota was the 404, I should have known.

rahtreelimbs,

Lonie and I had a few conversations about cartridges before I made my last wildcat. He told me he does 1000 yard competition. He said his first "test" was with a .243 Win necked to .224. He didn't even get 500 rounds before it lost its competitive accuracy. He then did a .244 Rem with which he got 2,000 rounds of competitive accuracy. He check with the guys who do the bullet testing and load developing. They told him the cases like the .234, .300 Win Mag, 7 Rem Mag and all the new short fat magnum barrels get replaced at about 350 rounds.

Therefore my newest .224 wildcat is a .264 Win Mag neck down and shortened to achieve .30-06 case capacity with a 7/16" long neck. The case diameter to the neck diameter is 2.1:1. I modeled it after the new 5x35 neck and shoulder. That is suppose to be good. I don't know if it is, but it looks cool.

350 rounds on a 7 Rem huh. Interesting...

Baloney......you might want to call George at GA precision and tell him his 7 WSM is about 2000 rounds over due

If you fired 350 rounds one right after the other I could believe it, but most here aren't building a comp rifle, and Competition rifles in 7 wsm last 1000 + rounds of great accuracy, I just don't buy it.........!!!

Ackleyfan,



Let's suppose George at GA has 2,350 rounds down his 7 WSM barrel and he is still pleased with it accuracy. If it had a longer neck he might get 5,350 rounds of his level of accuracy.

Your statement remind me of a young man I worked with for awhile. He was convinced if he didn't think it it could not possibly be true.

I have a fairly open mind....but thats not what you eluded to, there are lots of ways to make a barrel last longer, keeping heat down is is the biggest factor, a longer neck could possibly make a little differece buy keeping the flame temp down and in the brass longer but I don't see it making the differences you are claiming......just because they told you 350 rounds max ,doesn't mean you have to believe them!

Fixed it.

[bleep], why doesn't somebody let George in on this incredible secret?!

Fixed it.

Ackleyfan,

Let me see if I get this correctly. I should believe an anonymous someone on the internet rather than someone I have spoken with over the years and have come to respect? I don't think so.

I did put my money where my beleif is on that last .224 wildcat.

Guessing he might already know and is why he's starting to build 6.5 SAUMs...

6.5 SAUM sounds real nice. I think that would work for me.

Isn't that exactly what you're asking everyone else to do?

I guess it'd be different if Lonnie had written down his results so people could see them. I don't doubt the guy knows his stuff, and I don't doubt that he's proven something to himself.

But that's not what I'd call proving something beyond doubt, or however it was that you characterized it.

As far as I can tell, you're asking us to "believe an anonymous someone on the internet."

Four shooters who compete for team GA Precision used the 6.5 SAUM last year in tactical competitions. They shot 140gr bullets at 3050fps(velocity restrictions for damage to steel targets).Those four rifles each have between 2500 and 3000 rounds through them and still shoot well enough to keep those guys in the winner's circle.

George Gardner was at my shoot out here last spring with his brand new 6.5 SAUM comp rifle. I saw him put 300+ rounds through it in a two day period....he wasn't shooting it slow either! At the end of last summer he had 2500 through it and told me it still shoots 1/2" or better. My theory is case design, the correct propellent, moderate pressure and good barrels.....I can't wait to get mine!

Scenar- Thanks for the additional info. The 6.5 SAUM sounds like one heck of a sensible 'cat. I can only imagine the havok you'll cause the critters with one! Heck, I'm still trying to get my 260 Rem running to snuff and now you have me thinking of something else...

I believe the 6.5 SAUM has a longer neck than the WSM cases.

There are many factors in accurate barrel life but I believe a longer neck helps.

I also agree that the 6.5 SAUM could be THE long range hunting cartridge when you take into account recoil, windrift and retained velocity/energy. And if accurate barrel life is 2500+ plus rounds, sign me up!

Yes, but not by much. If I'm reading the diagrams right, about .31" vs. .275" for the WSM. The shoulder on the WSM is a little sharper at 35 vs 30 for the SAUM, which is another factor that's supposed to affect barrel life. Probably the biggest factor is how hot you run it. You can see pics of both on this thread:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7243319/8


If I shoot out my 6.5 WSM too soon, I'll just have to re-barrel to 6.5 SAUM.....I don't mind letting those guys do all the load work-up

The barrel burning issue with short necks has been proven, and it has a name. Its called turbulence point. Unless its been unproven since.

Personally I think a lot of how long a barrel lasts is also quality of that lot of steel and whether you start with shallow button rifling which never lasts long for me, or deep cut rifling which has always shown a longer barrel life.

The 300 RSAUM will push a 210g Berger LRBT at 2800fps from a 28 inch barrel.
I used Rel 22 and got it up to 2900 but it shot better at 2800 so thats where I run it.
We scoped it at 900 rounds and its just starting to "speck",with no checking yet at all.
I have cases that have been fired 12 times and some of them I did my ladders test and im still usuing them.
The 30 Degree shoulder is pretty easy to use and I havent had a problem just bumping it...just enough to keep the cases fitted just so.
30 degree shoulder,no belt,long neck.Tuff as heck case head.
Little to no case length growth.... I never trim...Short fat powder column.
Just a short fat 30 cal version of a 6mm PPC.
Its simple and it works.
Kicks ass at 1000 yards..


dave

Maybe you should just have "Gullibal" tatooed on your forehead....with the goofy wildcats you build I can see 350 rounds max, but you need to ? your source as your not getting the whole story...then again maybe you are

You actually believe I made wildcats?

My 6.5 WSM is a hunting rifle, actually kind of a lightweight built on a Kimber action with a 24" #2. I wanted one that was good in the mountains, and once I get it dialed in it won't see a lot of rounds at the range. It'll push a 130 vld or Scirocco up to 3200 but best accuracy is at 3150.

Life is too short to worry about re-barreling

Well....almost.The 300 Dakota is a 30-404 shortened,and set up for 30/06 length actions.The original 30-404's were full length cartridges necked down and blown out and were more like he 300 Rem UM.Guys were messing with those years before the RUM or the Dakota were introduced.

I don't know what the "best 30" is but you have to put the 30/06 very close to the top,and it would be me pick.

For a higher velocity cartridge the 300 Weatherby strikes a nice balance even today between case design,capacity,recoil,and velocity..... not much more is gained with larger cases and recoil and blast get excessive by going to the larger case.

That said there really is not much to choose between the various belted 30's like the 300 Win,H&H,and Weatherby....all are good cartridges.I've owned and hunted all three and wouldn't give 10 cents for the practical differences between them when killing animals.

Longer necks show better barrel life because they draw heat away from the throat area to a greater extent than the shorter necks(at least that's what I have read);this is one of the design characteristics of things like the 6XC and why it supposedly gives greater barrel life than the 243 Winchester......who knows? But that's what they say...

Definitely agree with this....one of the reasons I don't use button barrels anymore,and haven't for years.

Yes, I think that sums it up nicely.

Gunsmith built a 6.5 WSM.
Shot it for awhile and got rid of it.
Peekie Weirdness.
Very short barrel life.
And if I wanted to run 130g bullets at 3150.
I'd just build 270 WCF.
You know....the mag without the belt....
In fact I did.Bout 20 years ago....
The SAUM is a better case than the WSM.


dave

OK, I'll update the comment. It's the longrange hunting forum.....so a 28 inch barrel seems......out of place??

I don't know, you tell me.

I never said the SAUM wasn't a better case. If the guys at GAP chose it over the WSM, that's pretty much all I need to know. I did say, when this barrel is toast, I'll buy another. They're much cheaper than say, an S&B scope. It may be a SAUM, or maybe not.

Also, your gunsmiths sample of one is not necessarily significant.

I thought you were going to sell it to me...

I am, just as soon as I get it all the way up to 200 rounds and the barrel is fried. But look at the bright side, the load work-up will be done, and I'll have a bunch of fired brass for ya. Better check the primer pockets though, it's already hard to get 'em to stay put, you've gotta load this one pointing downhill....

Ever heard of super-glue? It's all I use when priming in my 7 Rem, but the barrel was gone a long time ago. It's got like 400 rounds down it now. Won't even hold .5 Minute at 600 anymore.

Tanner-too funny about the super glue, but when I was guiding I had one fella in camp the night b4 the hunt actually sitting at the table thumbing primers back into the primer pockets...

Dober

So what does he consider a short neck, the 300 Winchester Magnum?

I don't think so not for a "long range" hunting rifle. I have a couple with 30" barrels

Not arguing with you Ringman.


My 300 WSM just fired round #440 last weekend & printed one of its best three shot groups to date. It's just now settling down.

Yep, I guess it all depends on where/how you hunt.

My main point is, personally, barrel life is not going to stop me from building/shooting the hunting rifle I want. Mine just happens to be a lightweight.

For sending lots of rounds downrange, I have other rifles that aren't barrel burners.

Besides, the OP has been in constant contact with me, sending PMs through his protege and confidant Tanner, and I'm pretty sure barrel life doesn't matter to him either.

My vote for best 308 caliber cartridges:

308 Winchester
308 Norma Magnum
300 Winchester Short Magnum
300 Weatherby Magnum

BagABuck is slated as next head gunsmith at GAP, so I'm sure he will opine on the subject once more and set the record straight once and for all.

The best and most well rounded 30 caliber BG cartridge is,pretty clearly...the 30/06.

We had a guy in competition, the [bleep] was an unbelievable shot, but just knew he had to have XXXX MV from a gun or it was a BB gun.
He was constantly putting primers in with 640 bearing retainer locktite adn still loosing em. We all know when the metal gives, no glue is holding anything in...

But a buddy of his built him a primer crimping tool, that actually helped him a bit. But less powder would have been safer for us all.

Funny story, as well as he shot, he couldn't shoot 600 prone that well. I was on a hot streak one state match and had a perfect score goign in horrible wind. Never a perfect score on that range at that point it was only about 5 years old or so... His cell phone rang while I was middle of 22 shots. I pulled the round and rolled over... waitiing on him to answer. Flustered him so bad he started stammering about keep shooting, don't need the phone etc..... and I kept saying catch it and I"ll wait... ( of course I was also watching the wind and continually twisting the knobs to keep up with it. He demanded I shoot again. He hated loosing but was funny to listen to him whine about keep going.... stopped on a X. Started with another.... and finished clean and beat G David Tubb at 600 that day wiht my measly AR...

Told him after the match... my scorekeeper that is, he asked how I did it. I said I used 242 loctite, the 640 was so strong that when the case gave a bit, it torqued the case to the side and skewed the angle of the bullet a tiny bit as it went downrange, which really didn't matter much at 200 or so but by the time it was accentuated at 600 it could cost you....

I thought you were a big wildcat guy?

Yes. My job is to put dollar bills under the barrels to make sure they're free-floated. Next stop, Vice President.

I hope they let you in on the secret of how to do that. Use a $100, it'll not only help bed the action, it'll "true it up" too.

Old Confederate money works extremely well, but it's just too hard to find. The Benjamins decrease barrel life by as much as 2 to 3 times, but if you get a cartridge with a longer neck length it should even out.

I was funin' with my .com friend about believing someone on the 'net. About being a big anything.... Let me see, I am 5'7" and 160 pounds so I'm not very big. Never the less I am on my thirteenth wildcat: A .257SLR. I am hoping to get 3,800 feet per second firing 85 grain G.S.Custom HV monometal bullets from a 26" Pac-Nor barrel.

One time I visited Sisque Barrel Works near Grants Pass. When I introduced myself to Chick Donley he responded, "So, I meet the infamous Rich Coyle the wildcat man." I used two of his barrels. He loaned me a .22-6mm Rem reamer for one of my .224 wildcats.

Ringman- I know that guy too. Is his name Jude?

Not too many folks can say that. KUDOS!

I agree....

AT that time the owner's name was Charles Donley. He since sold the company and now has passed away.

There are a lot of good 30 caliber cartridges, it all depends on what ya wanna do with 'em,
These days I tend to lean towards accuracy combined with velocity using high BC heavy bullets... currently the 300 Norma Magnum is the best of them all with those factors combined... to make it a bit more barrel friendly I increased the neck length to .375" and bumped the shoulder up to 35 degrees.. basically a long necked version with a bit more powder capacity (105 gr. water)..theoretically the throat should last longer than with the original... leaving at 3250 fps with the Berger 215 gr bullet is most impressive for 1k target shooting and rock hunting on the mountain sides !!, for big game hunting the 200 gr Accubond or the 200 gr Barnes LRX at 3300 fps for anything that walks from 1 yard out to 1k...
I named it the 7.62 PRO (Precision Rifled Ordnance) it is the first cartridge in the PRO series of wildcats frankensteined off the 338 Norma Mag case, I own the reamers made for me by PTG in 6.5mm, 30 and 375 and the 338 and 416 PRO are currently under production by PTG...