Killing deer at 1000 yards

Home

After shooting at Williamsport (1022 yards) I can now see how killing a deer at 1000 yards really wouldn't be that difficult. All 10 of my shots whould of killed a deer. being colder during our deer season and not having to shoot 10 shots as fast as one can would make a huge difference in accuracy.
 
 I am going to make some alterations to my existing 300 win mag which will make it easier to kill deer to 1000 yards. As of now my self imposed limit is 650 yards. I can see how that range could be doubled.
 
 Have a good one all,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

"IF and I know there are always "IFS" I hadn't pushed 3 shots way right I would of had a pattern around 17", but it ended up about double that. I was happy with my vertical spread of 9" " DonKnows
 
 "All 10 of my shots whould of killed a deer." DonKnows
 
 Don, you sure do know how big the vital area on a deer is. Thank you for the info. Our blacktails are kind of small but someday I hope to hunt some of those deer with a 34" wide kill zone.

yep, 3 of my shots would of hit it in the hind quarter. You must remember though I shot 10 rounds as fast as I could aquire the target. That wouldn't be the case when shooting a deer and/or elk. The barrel wouldn't be anywhere near hot when shooting an animal. I had so many heat waves comming off a hot barrel that it was all waves at the target. I used my hunting rifle, not a rifle designed for competition. But you failed to mention that part. [Linked Image]

Talking to others at Williamsport that have killed animals to 2000 plus yards I can see that it really isn't as difficult as many would beleive. I am sure it took them a long time to get to that point so don't think I am saying "anybody" can do it. After talking to a lot of people last Saturday - that shoot in 1000 yard competition - I determined that a 1300 yard kill on a deer and/or elk wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult as I had originally thought.
 
 My own "deer rifle" - with a stock change - can be made to effectively kill deer to 1300 yards.
 
 There "is" a process to doing it and I listened to the "process" and watched a video of people actually doing it. The same people that made the video shoot in 1000 yard competition and I spoke with the maker of the video last Saturday. He was a really nice guy to talk to. Darryl has killed deer way beyond 1300 yards and explained his process. Instead of being negative about how it isn't possible I opened up to these people and have learned a lot from talking to them.
 
 They are more then willing to share their knowledge and we should thank them for that,,,,,,,and not be negative about it.
 
 So, when I say any of my shots would of killed a deer, I was correct, even if 3 of my shots would of hit the hind quarter. Knowing what I have learned last Saturday I am convinced that with some practice and a stock change and applying what I have learned from guys that have done it,,,,1300 yard kills on deer and elk are not that far off,,,,,,,for me.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Don where was your FIRST shot????That is the ONLY one that concern's me....1000 yard match shooting is a very different ball game....I have NEVER shot ten round's at a deer.Your first one would have been enough.......I think you'll do just fine.Try the 200gr Match King's in your 300.E-mail me a address where to send them and I'll ship you out a few to try....I think I owe you a few any way:).If they don't work,try the 190's.I'm shooting 240's in a 1 in 10....And they call for a 1 in 9......Let me know..........

Boyd,
 
 My FIRST shot (for score) was at 3 O'clock in the black. Shots 2 and 3 where to the right of my first shot. All 3 shots where no more then an 8" pattern with a vertical string of no more then 6".
 
 You sir are correct, once my small diameter barrel started to really heat up it got interesting.
 
 Any of my first 3 shots would of been a double lung kill.
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Before you vainglorious experts start trying to kill deer at 1000 yards you better make sure you can hit a chuck every time at 500.

miki,And just what's so hard about doing that???????????

Using live animals as targets at a 1000 plus yards is unethical. Calling it hunting is erronous, there is NO hunting involved.
 What is the purpose of doing it at this range that you can't obtain by getting closer?
 
 Your 1000 yard target will remain at that spot no matter how many times you hit it. A shot animal can wonder off enough for you to miss it, or wound it again, and I'm darn certain you can't run that 1000 plus yards in less then a few minutes to make a better follow up shot should it decide to wonder over the hillside.
 You have no control over what a wounded animal might decide to do. A target just stands there, giving you false impression animals will do the same. ~~~Suluuq

Rusty,
 
 First off, no hills around here for the deer to run behind. Where I hunt it is extremely flat - kind of like eastern SD only we have trees [Linked Image]

Secondly, as I watch a deer in the field - sometimes for as long as 30 minutes - I pattern the movements of the deer. If the deer puts its head down 30 times to eat and it stays there for a minimum of 30 seconds each time I have to beleive that the 31st time it puts its head down to eat it isn't going to all of a sudden take a huge jump.
 
 I have passed on more "long range shots" then I have ever taken because the conditions weren't to my liking. We never suggested that people just go out and start throwing lead all over - HOPING - to hit the deer. We shoot under very controlled conditions. In fact I would say our conditions are more controlled then most "average Joe" hunter that tosses lead at 100 yards - HOPING - to hit the deer.
 
 After shooting at 1022 yards and listening to the advice of others that have killed deer at 1000 plus yards I see where it really isn't as difficult as "I" thought. I will make the necessary changes to my equipment and I have no doubt that my 1000 yard kill on a deer is in my future.
 
 Just as side note, 2 years ago I killed a deer at 75 yards. It was fun but it surely didn't require much in the way of skill.
 
 Don [Linked Image]

P.S. my best kill on a woodchuck is 660 yards - using my 22. At 500 yards that chuck is just plain dead.

I've done a fair amount of shooting at ranges past 1000 yards with the 6.5 mm Match Kings and the 200 grain Match Kings out of a big 30. How do you folks judge wind accurately out at 1000 yards for first shot placement? With the 200 MK at 3000 fps a 3 mph windage error equals nearly 2 feet error in bullet placement.
 
 I hunt Prairie Dogs at long range, and yes I use Match Kings [Linked Image]

Maybe with portable laser rangfinders the trajectory and holdover problems are more or less soluble, albeit I doubt the little pocket RFs will cut it at 1000 yards, let alone the 2000 the Williamsport boasters claimed to DonKnows. But the wind problem, as mentioned above by another poster, is still with you guys. If a 3mph wind will move the bullet two feet at 1000 yards, you are in trouble, a 6mph means four feet. And if it is calm where you are, how do you know how it is blowing at the target or half way there? Another question, what has happened to your muzzle energy way out there? And if you are using Match Kings, will they, or any other bullet, expand when they have slowed down? Sniping at human targets at any range is permissible in war, if you only wound then two guys have to help your victim and they too are out of action temporarily, but it is inexcusable to run the risk of wounding and losing a game animal, and that risk is, in my opinion at least, unacceptably high in this kind of shooting - I deliberately do not call it hunting. It is target work on live targets, akin ethically to live pigeon trap shooting. There are people who think that is OK too, I am not one of them.

Miki... Good post. I mentioned the same things on another thread, but they find ways to explain it away. They don't like to acknowledge the extra risk involved.
 
 Don... A paper target will always stay where its at. it has no brain, no legs, etc. It remains no matter how many "arse shots" you put into it.
 Whereas, game animals do have a brain and legs, and do make decisions, of which YOU have no control over, regardless of how many minutes you see it eat something. Do you read it's mind?
 Should one get hit, perhaps it will die.
 Perhpaps it will wait long enough for a few follow-up shots. perhaps it will walk or run away.
 Shooting at a moving animal at 1000 plus yards is VERY differcult to do. I seriously doubt any of the LRS here can hit the kill zone of a walking deer at over 1000 yards with enough certainty to be a good "hunter".
 You think the further one is away, then they have more hunting skill? This is erronous. "To hunt" means to get closer, to stalk. What you are advocating is merely shooting at live animals at extreme ranges, based on your ability to punch holes in a paper target, where you think a target and an animal are the same thing. ~~~Suluuq

I agree totally with you Rusty-Gunn, Targets are great at long range. The stalk is the fun of the hunt, being smarter and sneakier than the prey is where it was at for me. I might add that I have been outsmarted by some "dumb" animals on more than one occaision, part of the enjoyment.
 
 Heck, at the ranges they are talking the animal don't even know they are there!
 
 In my mind there are two distinct catagories of riflemen, shooters and hunters. Shooters only need to be able to shoot and hit targets, hunters must be able to stalk and make clean kills of living animals.

I've never shot LR at a moving deer....Try to find something to put us down about......TO HUNT is to search for something.We have to find them before we kill them.......HUNTING.........................

Boyd and Don,
 I'm not trying to put anyone down here. I'm trying to learn if you have a new or different technique for first shot judgment of long range wind conditions.

This has been gone over many time's before.At range's over a thousand yard's,or in a high wind.A spotter round is fired 50 or 100 yard's in front of or behind the animal.Final adjustment's can be made.............Then the next shot is taken at the animal..............

Boyd Heaton and DonKnows
 
 I don't want to suggest that you guys are careless, only that the technical problems raise all sorts of issues. Let me give a hypothetical: the animal is standing there and you have a broadside shot, there is no wind all the way from you to the animal 1000 yards away, you know the range to the yard and have your scope correctly adjusted, your rifle will stay in a half minute at that range, you are all set up to shoot from the bench, the rifle is a .338 Lapua Mag so there is decent energy out there, it weighs twenty pounds so it won't kill you with recoil - and as you shoot, the animal takes one step and you hit it in the ass or in the gut because of the extended time of flight at long range.
 
 Miki

T Lee,
 
 You stated:
 
 "Heck, at the ranges they are talking the animal don't even know they are there! "
 
 And you are 100% correct. That is the entire idea.
 
 Based on your own statement I would suggest this:
 Notify every single archery hunter that just before they are to take the shot they YELL so the deer knows they are there. Otherwise your statement doesn't "hold water". Does it?
 
 Isn't the entire idea to NOT let the animal know you are there?
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Miki,
 
 What you stated could happen. No doubt about it.
 
 Then again it does in fact happen with the person using a 30-30 shooting at a deer at 100 yards.
 
 There is a butcher shop across the street from my house - where I take my deer to be processed. A couple of years ago the place was REALLY busy. Cars and trucks lined up for 1/2 mile down the road, waiting to take their deer in to be processed. Since I live right across the street I walked over just to see the deer and talk to the people waiting. I can't make any kind of a "flow chart" as to how many deer where "gut shot" or shot in the "arse" but there where a lot of them. Most of the deer were shot at ranges of less then 150 yards, by the hunters own storys.
 
 My point being a lot of hunters killing deer at relatively short distances still manage to shoot deer in the "guts" or in the "arse".
 
 Because there are fewer "long range" hunters versus "short range" hunters there are bound to be more "missplaced" shots from the "short range" hunters versus the "long range" hunters based soley on the number of hunters per group. I think that is a fair statement. What the percentages are, I have no idea. I would say, based on my own killing of deer and those I have spoken with that kill deer at extended ranges that we (the long range hunters) missplace shots less often then the "short range" hunter.
 
 As has been said many times, I wait for the optimum conditions. If that condition does not present itself, I do NOT squeeze the trigger. I doubt most "short range" hunters do the same. A lot of the "short range" hunters I have talked to about how they obtained their deer tell me that very little if any thought went into the process prior to squeezing the trigger. They are under the false impression that because they are so close they can't "mess up". As we all know, that isn't the case.
 
 Again, my intention of making these posts regarding "long range hunting" is merely to express my personal enjoyment of "long range hunting". If somebody reading these postings is able to obtain data usefull to them about "long range hunting" then I am happy that my small amount of knowledge on the subject has helped them. If somebodys interest is piqued from reading these posts and they go about it in a realist manner then I am happy to of helped, even if only in a small way.
 
 We all make choices and "my" choice is to obtain the necessary "skills" and "knowledge" to enjoy the sport of "long range hunting". I am not trying to jamb anything down anybodys throat.
 
 Have a good one and thank you for your interesting post.
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Canon,
 
 Boyd has already told you what he does. I will tell you what I do - as of now anyhow.
 
 If I see a deer at 420 yards (which I have killed 3 in the past 4 years, all 1 shot kills) I watch it, study it. I have a Swarovski spotting scope, Leica Geovid range finder, my bench, front rest, rear bag and my rifle all with me in my stand. I watch the deer as it feeds in the harvested field. Sometimes with my naked eye, sometimes thru the spotting scope. I do my best to "pattern" the deers' movements. If it is windy, I simply watch the deer and hope it moves closer. I won't shoot in a strong cross wind. Most of the time the deer come out to feed in the last hour or so of legal hunting time. Once I have "patterned" the deers' movements I then hit the deer with the range finder. I do this several times to make sure of the distance. I then adjust my elevation on my scope to the correct setting based on the distance. I re-check my elevation adjustment at least 2 times to be sure I set it properly. If the deer has moved any appreciable distance while I was doing this I repeat the process. I then get down on my rifle resting on the front rest and rear bag. I get as steady as I physically am possible. I squeeze the 2 1/2lb trigger. I always aim for the double lung shot. If the deer is not broadside I do not shoot.
 
 I realize I am "only" talking 420 yards here, not 1000 yards. But since I am not set-up to kill deer to 1000 yards (yet) I can only tell you what I now do. I have my rifle worked out to 650 yards. If a deer is within my comfort range (650 yards) I will proceed with "my" process to cleanly kill the deer.
 
 This is what "I" do and should not be confused with what other "longer" range hunters do. They can speak for themselves as to their processes/procedures.
 
 Thanks for you post, I hope this answers your question. If not, let me know.
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Everybody,go to the LONG RANGE SHOOTING post and read it .These ?'s were gone over in great detail......Don,how's the hog's coming along........

Boyd,
 
 They aren't, lol
 
 We are stuck at 98 dead hogs on the year, so far. Dave took care of that hog that was against the woods, close to the lake.
 
 Fortunately work has picked up quite a bit in the last 3 weeks and I am really busy right now, which I am gratefull for.
 
 I guess I am doomed to not reach the 100 mark - on killing hogs for one season. Two years ago we killed 97. This year we beat that by 1, so far. We have been watching for local farmers cutting hay fields but nothing yet. I would imagine, based on the hieght of some of the fields they will be making their last cutting real soon.
 
 I still want to have you and Butch come up to hopefully obtain some more video. I will keep you posted.
 Hope all is well with you and yours.
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Don... You are right. We are all human, and make mistakes. The difference between wounding an animal at 150 yards, and one at 1000 yards, is the closer one will be easier to hit with a follow-up shot. The further one, at or over 1000 yards, may be moving when wounded, and I'm dang sure most LRS can't hit the animal with repeated certainty to make a ethical finish-off shot. The distance is too great for a bullet to hit a moving target, and with the longer time of flight, the animal may move even further after the trigger was pulled.
 
 Everyone must do a little searching to find animals to begin with! But its what one does after this, before a shot it taken, is what is refered to as "hunting".
 Taking a shot at an UNSTALKED animal at 1000 plus yards is merely shooting at live targets. There is no hunting involed. Finding and Stalking are two different things. Don't confuse the two.
 
 ~~~Suluuq

Evening RUSTY-GUNN >> You said "Taking a shot at an UNSTALKED animal at 1000 plus yards is merely shooting at live targets. There is no hunting involed. Finding and Stalking are two different things. Don't confuse the two."
 
 Always remember that what you have described above is what hunting means "to you". Period. Don't make the foolish mistake of thinking that you have the authority to tell others what hunting should mean to them. That's certainly not your place.
 
 Frankly, I wouldn't give ya two pug nickles for your stalk. Defining hunting around a stalk is utter nonsense, in my opinion. Hunting is exactly what "I" define it as. And that is the clean, humane killing of the game that I choose to hunt in the manor that I choose to hunt them. If what I do is not deemed as hunting to you, I can respect that. But I expect the same in return. Later. >> klallen

Klallen
 
 Agreed that " clean and humane killing" is the goal. But that goal is elusive at 1000 yards.
 
 miki

Elusive,for you,probably.For other's it's not..........

Boyd, Don, & Miki,
 
 I would suspect that the fraction of hunters who should be taking 1,000 yard shots at deer is a fraction of a fraction of 1% of the people who buy deer tags each year.
 
 The great thing about America is our right to choose. Boyd and Don can choose to shoot PA deer at 1,000 yards. Miki and I can choose to stalk our deer and take our shots at shorter ranges. Either way, we are all doing what we feel best matches our shooting skills, our situation, and our commitment to make clean, humane, kills.
 
 Different people, different situations, different skills, different interests, America, where being different isn't held against you!
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Bearrr264

I am sorry I ever got into this one. We are miles apart in our concept of "hunting". Therefore I will agree to disagree and leave it at that, I am not trying to make you a convert. This is America and we are all entitled to our opinions and the pursuit of happeness as long as it does,'t interfere with others
 
 Go in peace my friend.

Boyd and Don
 
 I go along with Lee and Bearrr, good luck to you at 1000 yards and any other range.
 
 I might even come down to Williamsport some day - I am in Western NJ - to see how you guys do it. The only time I have ever shot at 1000 was in 1953 at Perry, the Small Arms Firing School after I got home from Korea. I was using a perfectly standard M70 .30'06 with a hunting 'scope, I forget what. Probably a Weaver K4 in a Pachmayr swinging sidemount. I think I did hit the target paper more than I missed it but that is about all I can claim.
 
 Will possibly hit the Harrisburg gun show next Saturday.
 
 Miki

miki,The next match is on Sep 7th and 8th......Let me know when you wanna come up....We have a few guy's from NJ shooting up here.................I might even have a gun for you to shoot if you wanna try your luck...Make the trip up.I would be more than happy to show you around....................

K... So, here we are, two different hunters, looking for two different animals to shoot. We both see them at 1000 yards distance. I make a sneak for it, but you will prepare to shoot it.
 Now, we both aim and shoot.
 I stalked mine, you didn't. At what point did you "hunt"?
 Don't the word "hunt" mean "to stalk"? (I must have a different dictionary then you.)
 But thats otay, you can go ahead and do as you please, after all you're a different "hunter" then me. ~~~Suluuq

Howdy SULUUQ >> Ain't necessarily saying that my shot would be taken at 1000 yds., but I suppose for arguement sake, my hunt would pretty much started when I entered the woods, continued on as I found the game, took the shot, as I was cleaning and tagging the animal and ending as I was putting it in my truck, all while you were expertly implementing the all-american stalk on the animal. I don't complicate much. You can waste the time differentiating between the two if you'd like, but it's just that to me, a waste of time. You legally take game, you're hunting. Simple as that.
 
 Would appear as though I'm not that far off from ole Webster either. Near as I can tell, the #1 def. for the word hunt is "to kill or catch (game) for food or sport". Don't find the word "stalk" anywhere in the primary def. I do see that the #2 def. is "to find or search", which can be done regardless of distance, 100 or 1000 yds. And lastly, #3 being "to chase". This must be where you get the "your" primary definition of hunt needing to include a stalk of some sort. Stalking ... chasing, I get the similarity. Just keep in mind that the #1 def. was. to kill or catch. This is what defines my hunt, no matter the distance that the animal is taken. I'll stalk if it's necessary, but I won't do it just to say that I did. Wasting time while hunting don't appeal to me at all. The season's far to short as it is. Chat with you later. >> klallen

Gents
 
 We can reduce our discussion to absurdity and I suppose if I had the time and energy to embroider it and you guys had the patience to listen to it, I could make a pretty solid case (my legal background should be good for something) that the failure to use a spear is taking too much advantage of the game. So that all hunting, except I suppose subsistence hunting, since the invention of the bow has been unethical.
 
 Miki

I don't buy it. I have read Dan llija's writings on long range hunting and it is very interesting but why? When shooting at varmints the huge energy per pound of animal mean kills with non peripheral hits. Gut shot, a 2 pound prairie dog hit with a thousand foot pounds will die pretty quick....it's also a prairie dog and there are a kazillion of them. A deer is a lovely sophisticated game animal with finely tuned senses and great vitality. It is not a mere target and with all due respect the thousand yard shooter is using this fine animal as one. You can't overpower a hundred plus pound animals biology with a poorly placed bullet. I grew up in Saskatchewan and it is pretty flat, but over a thousand yards there are lots of places a wounded dear can get out of sight. Over rough ground how long will it take me to get there to search? When I misjudge the wind slightly and drift a bullet into the guts when will I see this animal again? Has my scope been bumped off a minute of angle.. is there a slight downhill or uphill angle...Doesn't the deer deserve for me to give it every chance for a clean kill.... do I have any responsibility to it or am I in the field purely to test my equipment out on a living animal? Do me a favour and buy some balloons for your thousand yard shooting and leave the hunting to people who love their quarry... because any one who shoots deer at a thousand yards loves their gear more than their game.

Tak:
 
 Welcome aboard.
 
 Rick Bin

Taku
 I like it. Well said. You nailed it with "because any one who shoots deer at a thousand yards loves their gear more than their game."

Takujualuk... good post. They'll likely make efforts to explain it away, though. They're good at coming up with excuses to justify their behavior.
 
 The deer, etc do deserve a quick and clean kill, no matter the range, but the longer the range, the more differcult it is to ensure this, especially with a follow-up shot on moving game (not all animals will just stay put when being shot at) .
 Far too many variables, beyound their control, regardless of their ability and equipment. This, they don't care for, or else they'd more likely make efforts to get closer, thus reducing the chances of error. But, its just a game to them. Their ability, their equipment, against live animals, based on their ability to hit a paper target. Unethical, if you ask me, but I'm sure the LRS won't ask me. ~~~Suluuq
 ~~~Suluuq

Takujualuk, First let me add my WELCOME! to the campfire. And I agree with you and Suluuq. But we are not gonna convince these guys of our point of view, so I have decided to agree to disagree with them and leave it at that.
 
 I can't get into the woods anymore but I was as interested in the stalk (the best part of the hunt IMHO) as the actual killing. I never trophy hunted either, only for meat. Passed many a iffie shot rather than wound and waste and animal, just the way I was brought up.
 
 If they can make clean kills at long range, more power to them. If not, shame on them.
 
 To me it is more the spirit of the hunt and being out in the woods than just killing something because you can.

Takujualuk
 
 Welcome to the discussion.
 
 
 This reply is a general reply and not directed toward you but the system seems to reuire I reply to one individual post.
 
 
 I'll address one thought in your post and the reason it's a general reply is that folks seem to have agreed with you.
 
 
 
 "....it's also a prairie dog and there are a kazillion of them. A deer is a lovely sophisticated game animal with finely tuned senses and great vitality. "
 
 Where I live and hunt there are a "kazillion" deer and they share the status of varmint with animals like groundhogs and rats, there are however no Prairie Dogs and one would certainly be viewed as a lovely animal to be preserved. This year in Maryland there is NO LIMIT on anterless deer in the majority of the state, they are becoming varmints even in the eyes of the DNR. There are corn fields here that farmers won't even bother to harvest because of the deer (read as varmint) damage.
 
 You and I are products of different environments and we live in different conditions. I kill deer and other animals at longer ranges but this does not automatically indicate that I enjoy wounding them or blaze away in a poke-and-hope frenzy. I hunt in the manner I believe will be most productive and best accomplish the required task.
 
 I don't love my gear and I don't love animals, I know my gear and I respect the animals.

I guess I still haven't gotten a good answer as to wind implications in long range hunting of deer. I won't be hypocritical and will admit that I've shot deer on a few occasions at ranges beyond 500 yards. When living near Sun Prairie, Montana I had the opportunity to shoot targets and deer from my bench on the back deck of my house. I took a couple of B tag does at distances in excess of 500 yards. (640 and 590 by Geovid ranging)These shots were taken when there was absolutely no wind and conditions were perfect. I readily admit that the long range harvest of deer is possible. The question I still ask of all the long range hunters is - How many deer have you harvested? How many have you wounded? Please answer honestly! I am really skeptical about anybody reading changing wind conditions accurately at 700-1000 yards. I restate the point that a 3 mph error or a fishtail in wind direction will result in a gutshot deer. Taking a "spotter" shot is silly. Conditions change in seconds, if a spotter shot is necessary I submit that a shot shouldn't be lobbed at a deer.

DaveKing,
 
 There are many States that are over-run with deer and have liberal bag limits. The fact that they are perceived as varmints doesn't make it ethical for the 99% majority of hunters to take shots that you and a very few others may have the skill to make on a consistant basis.
 
 I heard Vince Lombardi speak at a conference once. He said that American men, perhaps men in general, feel that they are genetically endowed to do three (3) things well:
 
 1. Drive a car.
 2. Shoot a gun.
 3. Coach a team.
 
 Coach Lombardi felt that most of them way over-estimated their skills in all three (3) areas. From what I have observed in the field and on the range for the last forty (40) years, Vince was 99% right.
 
 If you can shoot deer consistantly at long ranges and kill them in as humane a manner as is possible, given that you are killing a living being that has done you no harm, you are perhaps a better and more confident shot than I. Good luck killing all those corn fed deer!
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Bearrr264

carbonman,
 
 You raise a very good question regarding wind drift with changing or fishtailing conditions. Perhaps Dave King will address this.

Thanks for the welcome all...nice to be here. Dave... I just came south to the NWT from a 9 year stint in the high arctic in Nunavut. My wife and I could get 10 caribou a year and these animals are very numerous.
 They are also easier to kill than a dear but I have seen some awful stuff at long range. Even with great gear and ability I think 1000 yards is too long to ensure a good kill very time and when the range is far a second shot to sort things out is even more uncertain. Hey I aint any-ones dady here so you can think what you like but that's my thought on the subject..

Carbonman
 
 Firstly, I'm not an Ultra Long Range hunter and limit my distances to what I'm practiced to, about 1000 yards.
 
 I shoot from the prone position with the aid of a bipod and sandsock (if required).
 
 I calculate wind using a modified British method, for my 308 I use 1 MOA every 100 yards for a 10mph full value wind but begin with 1 MOA at 200 yards. It's simple for me and easy to remember, 10mph full value wind, 200 yards = 1MOA correction, 400 yards = 3 MOA correction, etc. I call wind from look and feel not by any instrument, if I'm on a range I'll use the flag(s) if available. Remember that wind calling is a personal thing, I may call a 12mph instrument wind as 10mph but as long as I'm consistent the system works.
 
 If a hunter chooses to shoot in the wind, and a full value wind at that (I'll let your 3mph be full value as that's what I assume you desire) then he must accept the consequences. This 3mph would be .3 MOA at 200 yards, 1 MOA at 400 yards and so on using my wind call method. This amounts to about a 4 inch error at 400 yards, not yet a gut shot. Increasing the variables decreases the acceptable distance a hunter can shoot.
 
 If the wind is from a constant direction (full value) with a 3mph variablility and I opted to shoot in this wind I'd probably figure the lower wind value, call it 3mph and the upper wind value 6mph (my 3 plus your 3). I'd dial on the lower limit 3mph and hold on the wind side edge of the kill zone. This assumes that I feel the need to take this shot (which I probably wouldn't) and that even if the wind then increases to the value of 6mph the round will impact in the kill zone. Once again, it all boils down to personal limitations... "can I confidently make this shot".
 
 
 Each hunter should know his/her personal limits/abilities and shooting game (not varmint) animals at long range in a fickle full value wind is not a good idea in my book. Remember that long range hunting is not the same as long range target shooting, there are no time limits and the shooter can opt to not shoot or the shooter can close the distance or relocate in a no value wind location. For me personally, I shoot when I am confident that all things are correct, this applies at any distance not just long range.
 
 Your shots in Montana were acceptable to you because of the "perfect" conditions. These "perfect" conditions gave you sufficient confidence to shoot, your practice and training made this possible in those conditions. I see no fault in your judgment, this same type of judgement is what most professed and practiced long range hunters use.
 
 Sorry about the "no answer on the 3mph wind" but setting up to shoot on the outer limit of ones abilities is a bad idea and not required.
 
 Now the rest of your specific questions.
 
 How many deer have I killed? Probably close to 500, of those the vast majority were at distances less than 300 yards. Of the deer I've killed (elected to shoot would be more appropriate) while game hunting at my version of long range I've lost none, of the deer I've shot on depredation permits I've probably misplaced (I'll explain this) 10 or 15. Deer that I have wounded then tracked and lost (these were not long range as you know) 3 as I can recall.
 
 Misplaced deer... when I shoot depredation deer it's done to clear all antlerless deer. One method I use is to shoot from one location without moving and shoot until the deer stop coming into range or nightfall. The fields I shoot over vary, they may be corn, pumpkins, alfalfa, fallow or even woodlots. Sometimes there are enough deer on the ground that not all deer can be found in the confusion of the various kills. Pumpkin patches seem to be the worst for this "hiding dead deer" property, the leaves are big enough to create a canopy sufficient to completely hide a deer. These "misplaced" deer are subsequently found via scavanger activity or through the "stinker" method.
 (Depredation is not hunting and the rules are different.)
 
 My method of long range hunting does not involve "spotter" shots. I'm a first round hit type hunter and the distances I shoot are limited by this method and the gear I use.

Takujualuk
 
 I agree that 1000 yards is a long way and that is one were to shoot in all conditions at those distances then there will be a big problem. The shots dedicated long range hunters make at those distances are calculated not "poke and hope". The vast majority of the professed long range hunters that I know are practiced and knowledgable. Discussions I enter into here are about the professed type long range hunters, not the poke and hope folks.
 
 
 
 All
 
 There is not a good method for relating the capabilities of knowledgable long range shooters without directly witnessing it. Each year I introduce new folks to long range shooting and with rare exception they are completely awed. I most often use a range near my home that is setup to 940 yards, the targets being unknown distances with the exception on a 100 yard "zero" range. The folks being intruduced are taken to the 100 yard "zero" range and the rifles are zeroed and scope turrets reset. We then proceed to the "near" platform and shoot the 720 yard series and if time permits we move to the "far" platform and shoot the 940 yard series. The targets are large by hunter standards and huge by varmint standards but the point is to get the shooter confident in hitting the targets first, then we proceed to shoot a "place" on the target rather than just the target as a whole. Folks are generally "hooked" the first time out but it takes many many sessions before they become proficient at wind.
 
 Accurate long range shooting can be summed up fairly easy, practice good marksmanship techniques (good position, consistent trigger control and sight picture and follow through) know the trajectory of the round in the prevailing conditions. Simply having a good "zero" value and knowing the trajectory of the rifle and round at all ranges out to the shooters limit will allow the shooter to adjust the sights or scope and get the correct verticle impact. The problem is as Carbonman stated, the wind... so shoot in a no value or no wind situation and you're pretty much setup. Once you're comfortable with the trajectories at distances then begin to unravel the wind problems.
 
 It's not too difficult, it just requires good gear, good consistent ammo, knowledge of trajectories and lots of practice.

Dave:
 
 You may have mentioned this before, but I CRS so I'll ask again, what triggers and trigger pull do you use in your rifles?
 As usual, your explanation of LR shooting is so superior and diplomatic compared to some of the rest that they should just pay you to answer posts and keep quiet unless discussing technical issues.
 
 If it is a slow evening, must be awfully tempting sometimes to try one of those pumpkins. LOL

Dave,
 Thanks for the straightforward answers. It is apparent that you have a system that works for you. None of what you posted strikes me as buzz words or canned responses.

Hey Dave King -
 
 What caliber do you use when you're culling deer? Someone told me it's a 223, or something. [Linked Image]

R-WEST

Dave,
 
 Thanks for the well thought out response. You'd be welcome in my hunt camp anytime. Regards

IIFID
 
 I shoot custom rifles but they all have standards Remington triggers. The gunsmiths I use generally set them to about 2.5lbs (some competitions check trigger weight, last check I had was for 1kg/2.2lbs) or I'll reset them myself.
 
 For a while I tried aftermarket triggers, Jewell, Shilen, Timney but it's difficult for me to maintain consistency in trigger control with different shoes and weights. There is nothing wrong with the aftermarket triggers I've tried it's just that I don't need to be thinking "which trigger am I using and what is the pull weight" while shooting, I find it very distracting.
 
 Shooting over pumpkins was very interesting the first few times out, Actually it never occured to me that deer would eat pumpkins (I guess I figured they had no method to make the pie). The fella called me initally to get rid of the groundhogs, he became confident in my ability, safety and asked me to help with the "pumpkin" deer problem.
 
 Deer are very interesting and I'm sure most folks think in human terms when discussing their traits and habits. Several real eye openers in the "thinking wrong" arena for me;
 
 First time I watched deer eat corn, a smallish doe was feeding on the edge of the field and I tracked her progress by watching the tops of the stalks as she would pull the ears off and eat (I now call this "deer fishing" as it greatly reminds me of waiting for the tip-up rigs when ice fishing). When she came into view (very close) I watched her technique... she grabbed the ear by the silk end and quickly jerked the ear off the stalk, once the ear was on the ground she placed on hoove on it and shucked the upper/exposed side. She only took a few bites from the ear and only ate the corn and silk then moved on. After the episode completed and she was loaded I began thinking about the event and couldn't find any rational explanation for my belief that a deer should roll the ear over and eat the entire ear as a human would do. The deer eat as the deer eat, I don't believe they have any concept of conservation or waste, "the field if full of food, take a few bites and move on" is what I believe they "think". I see the same thing with the pumpkins, they kick/stomp a hole in a pumpkin shell, eat a bit then move on others deer may share as the smallest deer apparently have difficulty holing the pumpkins. The deer and groundhogs seem to sample the pumpkins, some pumpkins only have a nibble from them or just a hoove hole. I know someone is thinking.... "How much damage can a groundhog to to a pumpkin. Pumpkins are so big that one would feed a groundhog for a long while." Well, we're human so these ideas are allowed but think about this...Pumpkins don't begin life full size, they start out small and grow. The groundhogs don't wait for the pumpkin to get full size and one groundhog can eat or "sample" a lot of little pumpkins. (They also eat/nibble off the pumpkin plant/s.)
 
 
 IIFID, it's been a pleasure chatting with you again. Good luck and take care.
 
 /r

RWest
 
 For crop damage I have used a .223, most recently as last evening. I also use shotgun (slugs), 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, 338 RUM and others.
 
 As I mentioned above, crop damage/depredation is not hunting and the conditions are different. The deer generally arent disturbed or spooky (initially) so controlled shots are possible. There's no worry about other hunters disrupting the hunt or alerting the deer. It's very different and has greatly changed the way I hunt and the methods I use.
 
 
 
 
 Carbonman
 
 Thanks, I do talk/post from the cuff and not from canned responses.
 
 I believe you posted that you're a Master High Power shooter, I got my Master certification while stationed at Camp Pendleton shooting at the Santa Margarita (5th Marines) range I believe. I was fortunate enough (didn't know it then) to shoot with some great shooters and they taught me a lot, Mid Tompkins, Eric St John, Art Luppino, Billy Baker and others.) I also (I am retired Navy) was honored to be able to shoot on the Marine Corp Base, Camp Pendleton rifle team captained by WO Tom Bathory (They, the Marines, did give me a hard time every once in a while, called me "squidly" but only affectionally.)
 
 I don't shoot High Power anymore and don't often compete anywhere big nowadays, too much confusion and I like non-confusion since I retired from the military.
 
 Here's a few matches I competed well in:
 
 http://community.webshots.com/photo/31598400/34915947hemvIA
 
 http://community.webshots.com/photo/31598400/34915759TDdzCN
 
 
 
 
 
 Cheaha
 
 If you're ever out this way during a hunting season stop in and we make a day or two of it.

Let me offer my opinion since it seems as though thats where these threads always lean .. which leads to an argument but nevertheless, I as all the rest have an opinion.
 
 I am not an ultra long range hunter. I am however a 1000 yard hunter. I practice and practice in all conditions to achieve a confidence level that any game animal deserves. A respect as you will, that any quarry being hunted deserves. I would not attempt a shot in a 20 mph full value wind an any distance further than I without question know that my kill percentage would be very high. Just as any short range hunter would feel should he happen upon his quarry at 100 yards.
 I also have enough confidence in myself and my abilities to HUNT and stalk with as much success and steathlyness ( if thats a word) as anyone on the north american continent. I choose however to apply my abilities and achieved skill level to pursue my quarry and harvest my quarry from 1 yard to 1000 yards. If the opportunity lies at 850 yards I will take it. If the opportunity lies at 8 yards I will take it.
 
 I cannot see where "love" enters into this. I do not love my quarry I pursue! I do not "love" my equipment.
 
 If any one here loves the deer or loves the Elk. Maybe the sierra club is where you need to be. Maybe green peace or the likes. You diet should also consist of a heavy amount of granola and don't forget to hug your tree today. Maybe you have some explainig to do to your wife on how you "love" her more than the deer....
 
 I respect the land and the animals who live on it. I hunt the way I do without being critical and derogatory towards other methods/styles of hunting.
 
 The people here who are against the LRH's are very eager to say what is right or what is wrong in the LRH style. I feel you have no right ... no right whatsoever to judge anyone who hunts as a LRH without first walking in his shoes on a hunt. You may think you understand or you may be able to ( what you think ) is logically guess at what may happen in any given circumstance but you, in all reality do not know....
 
 If in fact one of the non believers would actually go along with a LRH and expierience the hunt, than you would have earned the right to be critical and objective about how you percieved the event. Than I would give your criticism some weight.
 
 This is a forum designed to share information and knowledge. Not to bash or denounce hunting styles....
 
 OK I am done with my rant... fire away...... I'm ready

Dave,
 You have me confused with someone else. I am not a high power shooter. Big game, varmints and benchrest are my games.

Carbon,
 
 If it is "real" windy I will "never" shoot at any animal at any distance that I am not confident of hitting - where I want to hit it.
 
 If there is a 20MPH crosswind (as an example) I will then limit the distance I shoot.
 
 Most of the time the wind dies down a lot just before it gets dark. Any shot that I would have beyond 480 yards is east of my location. Most of the time (in the winter) we have a west wind (comming out of the west, going east). If I had a 5MPH west wind, located and measured the distance on a deer (broadside) eating in the field, got set-up on it and I wasn't shaking to bad that day I would feel good enough to take that shot.
 
 I have had deer out in the field I watch over at 560 yards in past years and I did "not" shoot because the conditions were not what I "needed" to make a clean kill on that deer.
 
 Hopefully, one of these years I will have a deer at the 650 yard mark (my personal limit - as of now) and the conditions will be such that I feel confident in making a clean kill on that deer. That has yet to happen.
 
 I hope this answers your question. This is what "I" do and not to be confused with what "others" do.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Wyo.. Well yes I do love the game I hunt...nothing kinky mind you just a lot of admiration and appreciation. In fact I have enough respect for these animals to say that I do have a right to comment on the ethics of various hunting methods used to harvest them. If that makes me a Sierra Club member (whatever this organization is) so be it.
 
 As far as the thousand yard thing lets both shoot at 100 deer size targets. I'll shoot at 300 yards and the long range lads can go at 1000. I am not the worlds best but I would bet the house that no one alive could beat me at this challenge. I could ensure even in a wind that I wouldn't gut shoot one of those 100 shots given a prone position. If someone could do the same in a variety of temperature/wind conditions at 1000 yards I'll say maybe he has a claim to be an ethical 1000 yarder. I'd need to see it though, every body is Carlos Hathcock on the internet.
 
 I did enjoy Dave's windage method. It helped me figure out a way to dope the wind on my own .308 Steyr Scout without bringing a windage table along. I have been playing with shooting at 8" balloons out to 480 yards and it can get pretty tricky in a wind.

Carbonman
 
 Sorry.
 
 Got my threads a bit confused there. I am/was following a thread about shooting and there was a post from a fella asking about wind (as I recall) and he was a Master High power shooter, guess I melded you and him together on the wind issue.
 
 One of the fellas I met at a range a few times and shot with was big into Bench Rest and also hunting, Rod Morton, ever heard of him? Nice fella, ex-Marine (if there is such a thing) good shooter. I also bother Wally and Bobby Hart a good bit, Bobby wants me to stop by and shoot benchrest but it's just not in me right now.
 
 Again, sorry for the confusion.
 
 /r

Taku,
 
 This bet has been offered before. You tell me the dia. circle the average deer kill zone is and lets just shoot at that. No need for a whole deer. But lets factor in somthing else. Is every deer you shoot at 300 yards moving or still? If you have ever shot a moving deer at 300 your target must then be moving as well. All the animals the LRH shoot are still........
 
 I feel pretty confident about this .. I shot over 50 rounds at PD's at over 1200 yards an never missed by more than a few inches.......

Ric,are you sure you wanna take a bet like that? [Linked Image]

.I know I can put ten in the black at 1000 yard's.Do it in front of some people,they call it luck.....We both know that's not the case.Don't we......

I know at 1K I am pretty much shooting 15" groups in wind.. so Iam pretty confident ..... but then my birthday is on the 13.. and I was born on a fri. ( true story )
 
 All I ask is that it be fair.... if they wanna call it luck well then.. shooting 1000 rounds a year increases my lucky ness!!! ;-)
 
 
 Don't forget Boyd we gotta try again on the antelope tags.!!!! Just don't bring the pink gun !!!! ;-)

You forgot the purple pok-a-dot's.... [Linked Image]

Well last week I put 3 shots into 2 .5 " with my Steyr Scout rifle from the bipod at 300 yards in a light wind. 300 yards is about my self imposed limit for a 308. Have tested my rifle to 500 yards with good groups but I like the 1500 ft pounds and 2000 ft/sec for expansion as my minimum for quick kills. I might shoot at a walking.. not running deer but that is another good point. When the bullet takes over a second to travel out to 1000 yards maybe closer to two how can you ensure the animal doesn't move after you shoot? I practice a lot and I am finished with this post...no matter how much I practice and how good I get I won't shoot at a game animal at anything close to 1000 yards. Too many variables. The wind isn't always constant....at this distance how do you correct a mistake ect. I'll keep my opinion re: those who play this game to myself as there doesn't seem to be much of a point. At 1000 yds a 180 grain Hornady boattail at 3200 ft/sec is down to 1421 ft/sec ( won't expand) and 806 ft pounds for pitty sakes. In a 308 at 2600 it barely cracks 500 ft pounds. This is a no-brainer to me.

My Ultra shooting a 220gr MK at 3200 still has over 1600ftlbs at 1000 yard's.As for the wind.I shoot 1000 yard bench rest.(10 shot's)Wind is alway's changing.I can still keep them in the kill zone of a deer.I don't shoot 10 at a deer.Don't need to.....

Wyo & Boyd, you guys are nuts to take such a bet. It fascinates me that LR guys act bee stung when anyone mentions the common sense reality that a good marksman is more likely to hit his target at close range than at very long ranges. The world won't come to an end if you admit such a no brainer truth. You can still hunt long range. Honest. Anyone who believes the long range shooter will consistently over time outshoot the short range shooter either has a passion about lost causes or is in serious denial of reality. Fun bets are another thing.
 
 I am the guy who proposed the original version of testing hits on the same target at long and short range. None of the long range guys ever stuck to the original terms. They always had to fudge it a bit to give some edge to the LR shooter, such as MOA or this latest hedge of adding moving targets at the closer range. The issue here is RANGE and range ALONE, so all other variables should be identical except the range. My original proposal even had the same shooter shoot both ranges with the same rifle.
 
 If Taku shoots anywhere near as well as he claims, and so do you, you'll have shooters including long range target guys, lined up around the block to bet on Taku. You said deer vitals sized circle. In a circle, that's only about ten inches diameter, say 12 on a fair sized muley or a little more. Since range is the ONLY issue, targets have to be the same, conditions reasonably close to the same, etc. Shot for shot for 100 rounds. If you put them all in the circle, wonderful. My bet is that the good marksman shooting at 300 yards will put more of the 100 in the circle than you do at 1000 yards, and I'll bet you can't find anyone in Vegas who would buck the odds favouring the 300 yard shooter. Vegas odds makers are into reality in a big way, and you might consider it yourselves.
 
 DaveKing talks sense. Most of the other LR posters talk like some kind of weird cult who deny physics and have a persecution complex. Once and for all, you fellows can do it. No one is denying that a deer can be killed intentionally at 2000 yards. Once and for all, you fellows may do it. You have my tolerance, even a shrug, but if your conscience needs approval from others, (like certain special interest groups) that is a problem you'll have to solve for yoursleves. Once and for all, I don't plan to shoot deer that far, even if I could, and I think I could with practice. Good night.

I agree the odds are in the favor for the 300 yard shooter.. thats obvious..
 I find it fascinating that the SRH always wants to bet on the shooting abilities and in such a way that just, black and white will favor the SRH
 but I bet on average the hunter who hunts short range also accounts for more wounded deer and missed deer than the LRH as well..
 Make the bets fair and as obvious as the odds. The SRH spooks WAY more deer and takes more shots at spooked/ moving deer than the LRH. You know it and I know it.
 I can admit and will readily admit that there are WAY more circumstances that may account for a missed animal or wounded animal in LRH. I mean come on thats plain as day. What I don't understand is that after explaination and explaination the SRH think that the LRH are going out there with a 30-30 or a 243 and taking pokes at deer or Elk at 1000 yards.
 I know that there are guys that are LRH that will out shoot most guys at 300 yards. But again lets qualify things. The SRH will not be using a rest .. he will be using a tree, branch, dead fall or what ever, some will even take a poke at the deer offhand... Remember to let the LRH use his set up as well.
 The SRH always wants to bet, always want to find a way to make the LRH look like he's unethical or wounds alot of deer. They think we are a bunch of ego tripped maniacs getting to launch lead as far as we can and hope we hit stuff. I mean for chrissake has anyone of you guys ever been along on a LR hunt.. do you really know how its done...
 You all ask questions after question which is exactly why these forums are here.. then some self imposed do gooder comes along and spouts off this and that and turns it into a competion or a preaching session about how he can shoot better and how he loves more or has more respect for the animal .. Meanwhile he has no clue how or what the LRH does nor does he have any idea how much respect any of us have for the animals...
 I mean really do you think LRH just woke up one day and started throwing lead at 1000 yards. This is actually a sport that started many many years ago and has been refined over generations to make sure the animals get the respect and quick clean kills they deserve...
 
 I don't deny any law of physics. I do, and so do all the others, carry drop charts in all conditions etc. etc. I don't and neither do the others find the first animal at 1K and start winging lead... Hell I've watched more deer walk away at 1K than I have even thought about shooting. Why ... why do you ask.. because the conditions we not right...
 I do not need approval of anyone... the LRH were asked to come here and share information and knowledge of what and how LRH's do what we do...... so thats why we are here.... but some of you seem to have taken that opportunity to turn this forum into a ego tripped, preaching, denounce anything other than the norm ... forum... or "I gotta go give my .02 woth and tell then how I don't agree forum..." We already know there are alot out there who don't agree with this..
 I personally think archery hunting is more brutal than any type of hunting, there are also more situations for a wounded animal, but I am not in the archery forum saying how unethical they all are and making bets on who can shoot better....
 
 Why can't you non-beleivers just leave this be used for what is was intended... to share and learn....
 Not once have I heard any one of you even show interest in joining anyone on a LRH.. untill then your whining and bitching don't hold water.....
 
 
 I'm off the soap box .. go ahead fire away......

To all you guys shooting AT deer @ 1000 yds-
 
 - This is a live GAME animal and should be treated with respect. If you had to euthanize your mother would you shoot her from 1000 yds?
 
 - The farms you guys hunt on must look funny with all those wind flags everywhere! Because wind swirls, gusts, eddies, and sometimes even wish-washes on the Earth I live and hunt on.
 
 - The bullets necessary for that kind of accuracy are not good hunting bullets. This really becomes a problem when your hoping to hit close to the shoulder.
 
 I could give you more facts to prove my point, but you would find facts to prove yours. The bottom line is this is an ethics issue, and EVERY hunter should KNOW enough about the sport to FEEL that shots like that are better left at the range. JAK
 
 P.S.- If you are a target shooter and get no thrill in the chase, PLEASE DO NOT buy a hunting liscense and "Go kill sh#t". You are misrepresenting a way of life for some people, and you're doing it in front of people who are looking for reasons to take it away.

Geez JAK, have you hugged your deer today.....And don't you dare talk about my MOMMA.... [Linked Image]

WW:
 
 I've pretty well had my say on this topic and have tried to stay on the sidelines, but you keep throwing it in the rest of the hunting world's face, so I feel like responding.
 
 Please show us the initial post where LRHs were asked to come over here and show us the extent of your long range killing abilities. Otherwise you have fallen back into your old ways.
 
 I watched the tape of LRH, if you want to dignify it by that name, and that is plenty close enough to a "long range hunt" for me. I only watched it once. I prefer not to "hunt" in that fashion and have no interests in participating in a process that I found reprehensible and the participants only slightly less so. The "hunter" losing his lunch after "shooting" his deer was the perfect metaphor for the whole process.
 
 Target shooting is an interesting challenge at extended ranges, shooting something just because you can at long range doesn't deserve the term "hunting" IMO, and the reason that most hunters don't want to go on a LRH is the same logic as they don't have to stick their head in a barrel of crap to know that it stinks.
 
 I don't oppose your choices, but you continue to be amazed that many good hunters don't approve. Now that is "freaking unbelievable" as you say.

Jak,
 
 I see that yur a new member.. welcome.. I think???
 
 I have a couple of questions/statments for you.
 
 1. When you hunt are you out to EUTHANIZE your quarry?
 2. What does anyones Mother have to do with this?
 3.How much do YOU know about the bullets we use?
 4. PLEASE share your facts, then we will share ours. No need to hide.
 5.Describe the sport you are taking about.
 6. How do I know you are not misrepresenting my way of life?
 
 I anxiously await your answers.

Damn I almost forgot you were out there.. I should have known better... How ya been old friend.. bet you can't say the same.....
 
 OK .. not sure how I was targeted as the "in your face guy" but hey I'll wear the badge if I have too.. I see myself as defending what I believe in but .. ok I'll step up....
 
 If I remember correctly one of the guys who built the site asked one of us to come over here to share our information.. I think I am pretty correct on that one..
 
 You have taken the scene out of context. I believe he looses his lunch because he was gutting the deer.. I'm sure no new SHR has ever done that..... none of you guys are squeemish about guts....
 
 Now you go and insult some of guys I call my friends.. wouldn't you defend your friends????
 
 As far as the SRH guys making comments on this and that about the LRH.. can you really say what is fact from fact if you havn't been there?? If a guy came up to you and said your life is pathetic and you're a bad person.. does he have any validity to say that without living your life first.. he may have the right/opinion ( free speech ) but how much credibility would you give him...???
 
 This word amaed???? I admit Ihave no idea what it means and neither does any of dictionary's I'm thinking you meant amazed... correct?
 
 I am not amazed that they don't approve .. I expect it.. I guess I am dissapointed that people can be so closed minded....
 I came over to these sites and defended some friends and got caught up in the the anger and mud slinging ..I admit that was wrong.. but from my point of view I just wanted to share what I knew and maybe show someone another exciting way to hunt. We do it ethically and safely. AS much as any other SRH out there...
 I feel disheartened that the majority of the SRH won't look at it as another way to hunt, because they have only hunted one way for years they think there is only one way to hunt.. At least I can say I have ( for the most part ) tried them all and I made a choice based on my preference after I experienced the others.
 
 It is ashame too because I have a great place to hunt and share I could have had alot of new friends trying another way.....

Well hopefully we will see this forum go the way it should, and everybody will stick to what they like, but I doubt it.
 One thing I would say is if you had an equal amount of hunters shooting long range at game as there are short range hunters, then the statistics for wounded game, would go up to the same level as the short range shooter.
 There are fewer wounded animals I feel just due to the fewer long range shooters.
 Just my Canadian .02 worth.
 Bill

WW:
 
 I've been fine, buddy. You appear to believe that I dislike you personally because we disagree about your method of proselytizing your chosen method of hunting. Not true. You are probably a great guy to be around in person, you just don't know how to present yourself that way, at least in this forum.
 
 If you are so certain of your choices, that is LR hunting, why defend it? Let the naysayers have their say and continue doing what you are doing. Instead you seem to have some ego involvement in attempting to convert others to your chosen method of killing animals. Perhaps it just appears that way to those of us who don't know you.
 
 If you don't get anything else out of my posts, understand this, most hunters don't agree that what you do is hunting by their and most of our common definition of the term. I'm not going to argue whether it is or it isn't, it is only important to you and others who choose to do it. It is my firm belief that most hunters would not do it, if it was much easier than it is. It is no different, and no more challenging that shooting a cow at long range. Except someone owns the cow, and, there are more cows.
 
 As far as your puerile criticisms of my prior post, let me respond briefly.
 
 Look up the word metaphor and see how it applies to my use of the term in relation to the guy vomiting after shooting the deer, during the cleaning.
 
 If the video is not a true representation of LR hunting, then why did you and most of your friends go to such lengths to get us to watch it, so that we would understand. To be fair to your position, I did watch it, I do understand and I don't like it. Learn to live with it. My use of the word, reprehensible, was chosen carefully.
 
 I try not to leap to conclusions and to be fair in my evaluations. Just as, upon your and other's urging, I used a MK to kill a wild hog. It blew up, while barely managing to do enough damage to kill him, and all you could say was, "well, other bullets blow up, too." True, but not as often or as unpredictably.
 
 My typo of "amaed" was corrected before you ever posted. If all you can find to be critical about in my posts is one typo, then you don't have much reason to respond to my posts. If I criticized all of your typos we would run out of server space. Just for an example, you won't find "dissappointed" in the dictionary either. Mine was an error of omission which I corrected as soon as I read the post. Most of the time I can spell correctly, even though I sometimes overlay languages and it makes it more difficult.
 
 Your last paragraph is sort of hilarious, substitute "straight people" for SRH, "have sex" for "to hunt" and you wind up with this:
 
 "I feel disheartened that the majority of straight people won't look at it as another way to have sex, because they have only had sex one way for years, they think there is only one way to have sex...At least I can say I have(for the most part) tried them all and I made a choice based on my preference after I experienced the others."
 
 "It is ashame(sic) too because I have a great place to have sex and share and I could have had alot(sic) of new friends trying another way....."
 
 Most of us don't want to try another way. Your choices are yours, doesn't make them mainstream or admirable, just as my substitution above shows why the logic doesn't hold up.
 
 BTW, I am not in any way implying that you are gay, just showing that your argument is not functional, while being humorous, at least to my tastes.
 
 I truly wish you the best and hope that you have a good hunting season. How you kill them is your decision and I support your right to do so, while disagreeing with your choices.
 
 PS: Re the above substitution paragraph. Rumor has it that some non-straight, uuuuh, I mean LR hunters hunt with pink rifles. Well.....need I say more? [Linked Image]

Partsman, this topic has gotten way too emotional, and kind of weird I'll admit. Besides the leaps of logic and jumps into emotion that I maybe should be more tolerant toward, my deeper concern is the recruiting tone of long rangers. I have personally put down a bull elk wounded horribly by a long range shooter, and stood by while my hunting partner did the same for a similar bull a few years later, that one a pretty racked 5x7. In addition, in the swamps between Golden and down past Radium, one hot dry fall I found three dead bulls in one day, all shot in the swamps by guys firing from the hills on one side or the other. Those are long range hunters! They are not in a class with Wyoming, Boyd or these guys, but they are long range hunters. They are just lousy long range hunters, and such long shooters way outnumber the good ones IMO.
 
 My guess is that many animals are wounded when people of short range ability try a long shot. My concern is that these recruiting posts foster taking such shots. It is not fair to blame Boyd et al if some guy looks at a deer half a mile away and says, "Boyd did it. So can I." On the other hand, if I was in Boyd's shoes, I'd feel like I had some responsiblity for putting ideas in people's heads, to at least caution them about trying this at home. (Boyd, I am merely using your name as representative of LR shooters, nothing personal).
 
 In a case study from your part of the world, Partsman, if you have driven over Monashee Pass on Highway 6, east of Lumby, you may remember the Inonoklin (sp) Creek canyon north of the highway just after you cross the height of land at the pass. The road stays on the shoulder of the canyon and opens a view of the other side that spreads from a few hundred yards to over a mile across as the canyon deepens and widens. For three or four miles, maybe more, a person can look across and see animals on the other side, and used to be able to step off the right of way and shoot at them when seasons were open. With snow on the ground and the old burn an inviting place for deer, elk and moose, you can sit at a pull-out on the highway and glass many animals across the canyon in November.
 
 A guy from Vernon made a reputation for shooting game across the canyon, years ago. Rumour was he had a bench rest built into a partial dugout down below the road, hidden in brush. He shot a 7mm mag as I recall, and I believe the stories of his kills, some out toward 1200 yards that I heard about. Who knows how many others imitated him, but I saw at least 20 guys sitting in trucks watching the other side one morning. Most of them were not very good at long range, in this case from about 900 yards at the best location out to 1500 at least, depending how far along the canyon you are.
 
 That corridor of highway is now closed to shooting. The reason that isolated road is closed to discharge of firearms for 400 meters (1/4 mile) on each side is that it was the game department's solution to stop the long range shooting gallery carnage. So even though there is some good hunting along the highway side of the canyon, it is all closed. Did they kill deer across the canyon? Of course. I watched guys drag one up the bank one time. (I'm a believer even though I'm officially labeled an unbeliever. Interesting religious terms.)
 
 The technical and shooter skill developed for long range is fabulous and is at the cutting edge of advancing shooting techniques. It is fascinating and extremely valuable to shooting sports. I admire such skill and the dedication required to develop it. I don't even begrudge anyone who has honed such an edge to try it out on a deer sometime. That's just being human. However, sometimes we exercise skills, sometimes in private, that very properly we don't try to recruit others to do. For every Boyd who can shoot well at great distance, there are bozos lined up around the block who think they can or worse, have an ego need to brag that they can, -- and they can't. They do not have either the equipment or skills, and they will not acquire them.
 
 So what am I after? I think the reporting of components, how to's etc. are valuable and well worth posting, even at the risk of putting a dim idea in a bozo's brain. Along with that will inevitably come questions about the ethics. Such questions will not go away, because they are genuine, valid ethical questions. Also, new guys will raise the same common sense, valid questions over and over about wind, animal movement during the bullet flight, etc. and long rangers should get used to it and develop some courteous replies. One of those replies should probably be simply, "I do all I can to minimize the likelihood of the animal moving and with those precautions, it is a chance I am willing to take." Such candor would do wonders. IMO it would be appropriate for LR proponents to emphasize much more that such long range shooting is really difficult, requires specialized equipment and practice to achieve the skill, and that the slightest error compunds the probability of wounding an animal. Get good before you try this. The "try it you'll like it" recruiting tone doesn't seem fully responsible to me but I'll admit I'm tainted by visions of elk with gangrenous wounds from long range hits.
 
 An old wolfer was with me one morning when we stopped to watch the fellows looking hopefully across the highway 6 canyon. He sort of growled, "There's place for that kind of shooting. It's Camp Perry."

Okanagan:
 
 Wow, what a great post. I would have to go back and compare yours and some of Dave King's for my "best yet" vote, but you are certainly on the short list.

Okanagan,I do agree with most of what you said.But I have said MANY time's and so have other's.Is that it take's practice, the right equipment and MORE practice.I have NEVER said go out and but the biggest LOUD-N-BOOMER you can and go TRY to shoot a deer or elk at 1000 yard's.I'm sure there are animal's that get away from LRH's.It has not happened to me YET....I have had deer get away from me SRH.We shot TWO does from the SAME bunch last year that were wounded by SRH's.We watched the whole thing unfold from 800 yard's out.We could see both were hit but had to wait about 40 min until the SR guy's cleared out of the area.They,The hunter's never even tried to find them.The point I'm making here is,YES,There are SOME people shooting LR that should'nt be.BUT there are also ALOT of people that should'nt be hunting at all......So I DO respect your opinion.And I hope we can share some tip's and such.We might both learn something from each other

Geesh, is this a love fest or what?
 
 Nice post, Boyd.

I guess Dave's rubbing off on me...... [Linked Image]

Okanagan: I have to agree with IIFID, very good post.
 But then a lot of them are if one takes the time to sort through everything.
 Yes, having grown up and spent a lot of time roaming B.C. I have seen those places, and it is sad that some thought they could do that kind of shooting, but I guess when you look back they did not have the guys like these to guide them.
 Hopefully all can learn something here and realise it is not for everybody and to not try it just for a lark.
 Hopefully we will reach a few that will learn something from all this, and know that it takes some dedication and is not for the average joe.
 Bill

IFID's and anyone else who is interested,
 
 AS I stated way back when ..I am not trying to recruit anyone to LRH. I am not trying to convert anyone to LRH. In fact most guys don't have the time or the intellegence to try LRH. Now if I would have said that about 3 months ago I would have been burned at the stake in the town square. I actually prefere that guys not be converted to this style of hunting. For someone who wants to hunt this way, the best method of jumping over the fence is best if they do it on their own.
 
 IFID's ... again you are very polite and very well spoken but very wrong. It is like beating a dead horse with you. You take alot of time to articulate your posts but then you say stupid stuff like " it's like shooting cows. You imply there is no hunting involved. Now i cannot speak for other LRH but I do hunt my quarry. I do scout take notes though out the year and previous hunting season in preparation for years to come. I do stalk several deer a year before I actually pursue one. I may never even get the opportunity to harvest that animal after all of that. TO me ( and its my opinion ) that way more that shooting cows and a whole lot more than a SRH on a deer drive !!!
 
 I understood your metaphor but for someone who never saw the video and would just happen to read these posts it sure did seem as thought he blew his lunch from the way he hunted .... so I responded. Me and my friends DID NOT force the video on anyone. With all the negative feed back and the same explainationa and argument over and over again it was much easier to have someone see what we did.....
 Ok so you used a MK on a hog.. and it blew up... ever use a Nosler ? Everyone I have used blew up. BUT every MK I used never did... so what does that tell you.. nothing but MK's work for me ..nosler don't.. It just happens MK's don't work for you.. simple fact is that there are guys who hunt LR that have years of data that prove MK's are as well made as any hunting bullet.
 
 I wasn't being critical of your typo, but if you remember you made a BIG point to do that to me in the past.. just to get under my skin... frustraighting isn't it...???
 
 Now on your evaluation of one of my softer moments and the deletion of some words and insertion of others.. I know that in some way you did that to irritate me..for a while it worked... but I kow your style and I should have expected it...I see your point but let me say this...
 
 What I was trying to express to you and others like you is this... You honestly have no real concept of what we do until you have done it. THer are alot of guys who just lob bullets and say that they are a LRH .. you seem to group all of us LRH into that group. What I was trying to say was that you really cannot be as critical as you are unless you actually get a feel for and expierience a hunt they way we do. There are many styles to the LRHing crowd. I fall into more of a tyical hunter that some of the LRH's. You guys read these posts of deer and Elk shot past 1K and flip out because in your mind you see someguy with a magnum rifle leaning over a deadfall throwing lead.... not true at all, so all I was saying is that I hoped someone would actually see and expierince it befor they seemed to know all about it. I also had a soft moment and said stupid stuff like I have a place to share... way to soft for me and maybe I'll take it back now.... see around this board with guys like you watching I should have never shown a softer side...
 
 Now as far as my argument not being functional.. I don't have the time you do to comb through every post to find ways to dicredit what people say. I am pretty confident that I could easily go back and do the same to some of your posts. I see and understand your method of argumentation, I only wish I had the time to match it... I will say your good at it.. I can't afford to spend the time on it the way you do..
 
 In my latest psots on this my main point I was try to express was that the opposers to this way of hunting have been very opinionated in their opposition. All I meant ws that some of them who were very vocal should take some time to understand this before they critisize it.
 
 Again I am not recruiting.. I was asked to come here to share some knowledge ( the little I have ) on this way to hunt.. Immediately upon arriving here I was badgered and pummeled by all sorts.. I reacted ust like anyone backed into a corner would...
 
 I should have just left and did my thing... I wish I would have.
 
 Just so you know I don't have the time to check everything I just typed, so have your fun....
 
 It is obvious your intellegent... use that to your advantage in a positive way, you have mastered the negative.

Ok,
 
 I do see your points and they are valid. I respect what your opinion is.
 
 Lets take a look at your expieriences you've described.
 
 I am sure to the typical person reading that, they would tend to think all LRH are inaccurate and wound many aniamals. It is portrayed that way..
 I suppose that if I recalled all the times I witnessed the SRH's wound deer during the drives, pushes, and party hunting I could paint a very bleak picture for the SRH's
 I know and you know that wouldn't be fair. That is exactly why I would not mention all those times in a forum like this. I know that most of the guys here arn't hunters that leave the wounded for another day or shoot at it and if it doesn't fall over think "I must have missed."
 I figured from the begining you guys wern't like that. I hoped you would see that the LRH's here arn't like what you've described. To keep this level your examples arn't relavant to the LRH's here.
 You may say " if they read all this LRH stuff they will try it", "then they will just end up wounding deer" they might but they may also read in another forum here that deer can be taken with a .223 at 300 yards and go try that too...
 
 Lets keep the playing field level, when and If we have to give examples. I firmly beleive that most of us here LRH's and SRH's arn't the typical hunter who would rather go to camp and play poker than go hunting. Lets not mix the cubic zarconia ( sp ) with diamonds... they may look the same but one is more valuable than the other....

Tell me, LRH set up on a hill top, or other vantage point and wait for some animal to come out where they can decide whether to take the shot or not. If conditions are not perfect according to you, they won't shoot. Therefore they are only shooting at an animal that is behaving just like a cow, moving slowly and pausing. Finding one is a given, if you set up in good country and can view the thousands of acres that you have to be able to see to take such long shots, ergo, you might as well be shooting cows. No difference and the game is no more concerned with their presence than a cow would be, because of the distances involved. All that may sound stupid to you, but it is a fact.
 
 Please post where I was critical of typos in your prior posts. I have been critical of their content, for obvious reasons. But no, it isn't frustrating, just shows that you have no real points to make.
 
 You act like there is some magical equation necessary to understand LR animal sniping You are completely wrong. It is very simple to understand and difficult to do correctly. But the process is obvious.
 
 If posting on here is so destructive to your personal life, then by all means, follow your own advice and quit doing so.
 
 Have a good hunting season, shooting them brown cows. [Linked Image]

IFID,
 
 No damage at all to my personal life... mines perfect, beautiful wife, beautiful ranch, great guests, great hunting.
 
 Good way to over simplify LRH
 
 One question, If you are not a LRH why are you here....?
 
 seems to me I have more and better reasons to be here than you do....
 
 answer: to do what you like to do and you are good at..... you fill in the rest with your special twist...

WW:
 
 Regarding your personal life, I was simply responding to your statement, and I quote, "I should have just left and did my thing... I wish I would have." YOU are the one who suggested that this site was bothering you.
 
 I am here because I want to be, if all you want is LRHs here then why are you here and not on the longrange web site? If my presence bothers you that is your problem and you can deal with it in 2 easy ways as I see it......learn to live with it, or leave. Because I am here almost everyday, even if I don't post and I have refrained from responding to your outbursts for months, but enough was enough.
 
 Tell me, I have read every post the LR hunters have made in here, and if my description of LR hunting and the activities of the animals they actually shoot at and their identical characteristics to grazing cattle is not accurate, please correct any misconceptions I have. Otherwise admit you are shooting animals that are no more concerned with your presence or activities than cattle would be, therefore, save yourself some time and effort, go out and buy some calves and shoot 'em. Same thing. And you can do it year around.You wouldn't have to bother with all those regulations set up for the rest of us ordinary hunters. Save on license fees, tags, don't have to clean them if you don't want to, streamline the whole killing process.
 
 I am going to say this one more time, I don't care how far you kill your animals and I don't care how you do it, and, in an effort to maintain civility on this forum I am going to refrain from any more responses to you in this thread. It is circular, you just don't know when to quit when you are ahead. You want everyone to give their seal of approval to your style of killing and that will never happen. Learn to live with it.

Bill (Partsman) , Okanagan, Boyd, Ric and others who have given very valid points.
 
 You are correct, longrange is not for the average Joe hunter, as you mentioned.
 
 It takes years of practice and should "NEVER" be attemted by the person who walks into his sporting goods store, buys a 300 RUM Sendaro with a large Leupold LR scope, buys 2 or 3 boxes of "factory" ammo and then calls himself a LR hunter. No way is he in any stretch of the imagination.
 
 I have seen with bigeyes binoculars, Colorado SRHs jump from their truck and shoot at running elk with their 30/06 AND 243 rifles at 800 yards and empty their clips. Did they hit any, I don't have a clue and neither did they as, they never walked out to see if there was any blood. This is how the true and dedicated LRH gets a bad rap. It is many times the SRH who tries to reach out with his hunting rifle or the incorrect equipment.
 
 If you see a LR hunting team of 2 or 3 standing on a high ridge with bigeye binoculars, large rifles and rangefinders , they have no doubt done their homework very well. These guys will cleanly kill their game at extreme range and much further then 1000 yards.
 If you see the 1 or 2 person team sitting on a far ridge with a backpack, bipods on their rifles and scanning the distant areas with medium glasses and rangefinders, these guys (like Dave King) no doubt did their homework also. They will dispatch game up to 800 yards quite easily.
 
 Here is the problem the way I see it on this or any forum.
 Some people read what some of us are and have done with the correct equipment and years of experiance under our belt and they think they can do it right a way too.
 
 They go out hunting without having the guidence of an experianced LR hunter with them to show and tell, how it should and MUST be done safely. When and if this happens, wounding and loss of the animal "can" occur.
 
 We as LR hunters have and will continue answering questions as best we can for those who are honestly trying to learn from our experiance. Nothing more.
 If you don't accept the LR way, that's OK. We are not trying to ram our way down your throat. .
 
 We do care enough about our sport to try and educate those to the correct way of LR hunting and to be successful at it. If we can do that, I personnally feel we have guided that person down the correct path to start with. If the LR way is done correctly and with the correct equipment, there will be less or even NO wounding of the animals. Just quick kills.
 
 For those who have NO desire to LR hunt, we will not try to sway them as they never will understand or accept the concept anyway. If some want to call it ethical or unethical, it really makes no difference to us.
 We have found that LRH is an extremely quick way of dispatching, killing, harvesting or culling (whatever you prefer to call it) an animal when you do it corectly.
 
 We as LRHs understand the other hunting ways and styles. Most of us have hunted just about every way there is to hunt, throughout our years afield. Sort of been there, done that.
 
 From what I have seen on this forum since Ric Bin asked us to come here, as soon as we make a statement as to how far the animal was killed, you have the SRH who does not believe it and won't EVER consider hunting the way we do because of various reasons.
 I can only say that, for those who don't accept it, fine. We are not here to sway you to our style at all.
 
 We only want to reach the person who honestly wants to know how it is done and may have the facility to practice his loading and shooting skills as he reaches out further and further downrange while understanding and realizing what his rifle is capable of. Many SRHs have no idea what even their rifle is capable of let alone the equipment most of the LR crowd have at their disposal.
 It takes years of practice to do the LR way correctly. It's not an overnight thing.
 
 I'm sure there are some spelling mistakes here as I'm in a hurry also.
 
 Thanks for the space.
 
 Darryl Cassel

IFID's
 
 I don't want just LRH's what I ( my opinion ) would like to see is more people interested in LRh and discusions on the mechanics of it and ideas and facts that pertain to it.
 I can do without the complaints ( after all I'm human ) but I am willing to deal with it...
 
 I don't care if your here or not , I just found it amusing that a guy who does not support it would spend so much time here.. says alot for your motives in posting..
 
 or maybe after all you've done ( said ) and your style of it.. maybe I just don't ... aww never mind.. I waste my time... with you.....

In many Western states (Idaho for example), there is a maximum weight limit of 16lbs on hunting rifles. That includes the scope/sling/any bipod ... all-up. So all those super-accurate 55lb rigs or 40lb or even 20lb setups that you might use in 1000 yard competitions would be illegal for big game hunting out here. Also, don�t plan on driving around on a road with your shooting bench and big-eyes in the back of a truck, since it�s also illegal to shoot at big game "from or across a road" out here.
 
 My guess is that a lot of this so called LRH is done on private lands or leases and in states where there is no weight limit on the rifles. If those who would like to wear the label LRH are not violating state hunting or firearms safety laws, and it turns their crank, I say let them proceed. The good news is, they won�t be able to export it out here (under the guise of hunting).
 
 In my view, claims of long range "hunting" ends at the distance where you need to begin to fire "spotter" rounds, to walk your shot in. It then becomes long range "lobbing" (LRL) and has no further relation to hunting. The appropriate time to figure-out where your bullet is going to impact by lobbing some copper/lead downrange, is not in the middle of the hunting season (in my woods). If you don�t already know where your shot is going to go and how much the wind will affect it at the distance you are about to shoot at a big game animal, then you are shooting outside the range where YOU are capable of making a one-shot kill.
 
 Also, don�t kid yourself that the target deer/elk are unalerted by your super-sonic rounds impacting near them and creating enough of a "splash" for your spotter to observe/report. Just because the animal doesn�t immediately run off, doesn�t mean that they remain calm and relaxed. Even the delayed sound of your rifles report reaching them is sure to alter their previously "un-alerted" state, as well as disturb any other game or hunters in the area that you may not even know are there. Many western hunters wear full camo as they invisibly stalk game through the woods (Oregon/Idaho have no Hunter-Orange requirements). Unless you are lobbing those spotter rounds safely into open fields, you might want to get ready for some incoming return-fire (insert "revenge" smiley face here).
 
 While I may personally find some of the so called LRH activities unappealing, I find their discussions of equipment, techniques and their contributions to long range ballistic and accuracy intriguing. Just as all shooters benefit from accuracy advancements initiated by the benchrest competitors, we can also learn much from the 1000 yard competitors as well.
 
 My opinion .... If you are "carrying" a less than 16lb rifle though the woods, spot a legal big game animal (possibly laser range it), set up in a solid field rest (or use your bipod) and kill it with ONE well placed shot, then you can claim to be a LRH at what ever distance that shot was made at.
 
 If you need spotter rounds, you�re "shootin", not "hunting".
 
 ... Silver Bullet
 
 "I hunt medium range ... with moly-coated 180gr Swift Scirocco�s and 210gr Barnes-Xbt�s"

Excellent post Silver Bullet!!!!

My 300 win mag with the 4 to 16 X 50 Schmidt & Bender PM II scope weighs 11.8lbs. After I restock it it will weigh no more then 1lb more.
 
 I am set-up to kill deer to 650 yards and I do not use any spotter shots at all.
 
 I have killed 3 deer in the past 4 years at 420 yards, 1 at 380 yards and several at lessor distances. All where 1 shot kills. The furthest any of the deer have gone after the shot was 30 yards.
 
 I am a medium range hunter at this time with a self imposed limit of 650 yards. I am hopefull that I can extend that distance to 1000 yards over the next couple of years through lots of practice and some improvements to my equipment. Based on data obtained from those who do just that (kill deer to 1000 yards) I beleive I may be capable of killing deer to 1000 yards. I am now and always have considered myself a hunter. My methods are now more varied, thats the only difference.
 
 I still shoot doves at 40 yards or less and I don't generally need more then 15 shells to obtain my 12 bird limit. I have shot and killed doves to 60 yards but I considered that more luck then anything else. I also enjoy pheasant, chukar and quail hunting over my Brit. Most shots are less then 30 yards.
 
 See, I shoot close range as well, [Linked Image]

Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

SB,
 
 Howdy neighbor I don't htink we've met yet...
 
 I have two fully custom rifles that both weigh under 16lbs "all-up" and I know in the right hands they can shoot 10" groups at 1000 yards. I have shot 2" groups at 500 with one of them and I am working up loads for the other.. she might or might not be able to go huntng this season...
 
 With the first rifle I have a self imposed range of 650 yards... I have shot 8.5" groups at 700 yards but the ballistics ( ft. lbs) arn't there at that range.
 
 
 I think you have been mislead about the "spotter" rounds. The use behind most of them is to insure all conditions were read right not so much a "walk-in" type situation.
 
 I also have a diferent take on knowing where your shot is going...
 
 I have seen first hand many guys with big guns.. do this scenerio....
 
 Hey John.. yeah Bob .. how far you think he is.. um about 350.... what do i do he's gonna make it into the timber if I don't hurry... um hold 5" over him and a foot in front....
 
 Long range hunter or short range hunter...????
 
 could he make one shot one kill.. maybe with some luck... but the majority of the SRH's will accept that kind of action while hunting.. Until I was educated both self and with the help of many LRH's here and on the LRH site I will no longer accept that action as tolerable...
 
 Any LRH ( I associate with ) would automatically know how many clicks to spin and would wait for the animal to stop or relax before pulling the trigger....
 
 When I guide here in Wyo.. All my hunters with shoot with me the day they arrive... I will take them to my range and chrony the rifle and ammo they shoot.. I then use my ballistics program to make the drop chart for them and we both get a copy.... very little guess work in the field....!!
 
 I hunt on all public land and I more than likely can tell you everything that is going on with in my sight ability while looking throught the 12X Steiners and my 20 - 70 X spotting scope.. I, nor would any of the guys I know fire a spotter in to an unknown area.
 
 I'm glad to see that you find some of the info. here usefull, these guys have alot to share.. thats what it's here for, to learn... even though you don't agree with the principles of what they/we do at least you find somthing that may make you a better/ more educated hunter.
 
 See IFID's no hard recruiting or pressure to be a LRH....

I will never have the skills to LRH (or LRS) and am rather against it on balance mainly because of what seems to me to be the virtual impossibility of tracking a wounded animal, and the time of flight if the animal takes one step as you pull the trigger, but it does occur to me that the comparisons with shooting a grazing cow are somewhat misplaced.
 
 After all if we can sneak to fifty yards of a standing or resting deer without disturbing it we will take the shot without whistling first to get it going. And we will be pretty proud of our stalking skills, and rightly so. They will have been learned over a process of years.
 
 You can equate the development of those abilities with the development of the LRH shooters ability to make hits at such long ranges. The skills are not the same but the learning process, in each case, is laborious and lengthy. And it is a shot at a target that is standing still in both cases.
 
 There is the difference that if the deer takes off at close range you can still, if you are good, shoot and hit it and if you only wound you have a chance of finding it. At long range forget it, and while our forum's LRH shooters have sufficient self possession not to pull trigger if the deer is moving, there is no way to prevent that accidental step-off as the trigger is pulled.

Miki,
 
 I agree there is the reality and chance that a motionless animal will move. The same chance that a "stalked" animal will become spooked. Both LRH and SRH take that risk.... which is a greater risk can be debated forever... There are circumstance that are pros and cons in both situations...
 
 The advantage of hunting LR is that you typically have a partner..... therefore your tracking abilities and what happens after the shot/hit are more detailed... therefore a lost animal rarely if ever happens....
 
 I agree 100% in your comparison between the skills learned in stalking and the skills that it takes to be an accomplished shot at long Ranges.. it take a very long time to master both....
 
 The accidental step off can happen in both situations.. that is the risk both hunters take.... the only difference is that in LRH there is usually just a step in SRH there is usually a leap or jump....

Wyo Whisper
 
 No doubt having a partner does make a difference when you try to track a wounded animal, two heads and two sets of eyes are better than one, I did not take that into consideration, but I would comment (1) that things look vastly different when you get up close, and just because your partner saw the direction the deer dashed off in doesn't mean the scene will look anything like that after you have walked more than half a mile to the site (2) frankly, the mindset that develops the skills to LRH is not at all the same as the mindset that develops tracking ability !!!
 
 I would speculate, and it is pure speculation, we will never have statistics, that a highly skilled stalker (and there are about as few of them as there are highly skilled LRHs) will wound fewer deer and catch up with more that he does wound than an equally skilled LRH, notwithstanding a partner, it's just the nature of the different circumstances.
 
 I am neutral in all this, I have no LRH ability and no stalking ability !!! And I admire both qualities very much.

Miki,When I LRH I do so with 3 people....When a shot is taken at a deer.One person shoot's and two people spot.IF the deer run's one set of BIG EYE's is let on the spot the deer was standing.And the other person follow's the animal.IF a deer get's OUT OF SIGHT.We know the EXACT spot where the deer was standing when the shot was taken....

Boyd
 
 In between looking at this forum I have been off on ebay bidding on VSR rifle iron sights - very short range !!
 
 With two partners you are undoubtedly reducing the possibilities that things can go wrong to a minumum, but it does begin to sound more like a military than a sporting operation. But a traditional deer drive is even more so, and those have been OK for hundreds of years.
 
 I think most of my uneasiness is not what you guys do but the perception of too many hunters, put into them by thirty years of gun magazine BS about magnum rifles, that they can switch the scope up to 9x and sucessfully bang away at game as far as they can see it. And lots will try offhand.

Miki,I get your point....People would be BANGING away if we were here or not......What we are trying to do is teach people that if they are gonna do it,do it the right way.I have seen people shoot at running deer at 500 yard's with a 30-06 with a 4 power tasco scope.You can't blame that on us.If someone want's to learn the RIGHT way I will help them.....You need the RIGHT equiptment and lot's of pratice.If someone can't understand that,how is it OUR fault...........

Miki,
 
 I agree, there are a LOT of slob hunters out there that "try" to hit game at a lot further distances then they should ever attempt.
 
 I will add to what Boyd has said and I have no doubt he will confirm what I am about to type. When long shots are taken on deer (as Boyd said) 2 guys "spot" for the shooter (in his case). Once the bullet arrives and IF the deer runs off 1 guy holds on the spot while the other tracks where the deer is going. What Boyd didn't mention is that once the deer is down and can be seen through the spotting scope then the person that goes over to the deer has a radio, as does the person looking at the deer with the spotting scope. The person looking through the spotting scope (at the deer) can then direct the person walking over to the downed deer.
 
 I am not sure if you have seen or hunted the Hills of Central PA or not but our deer season is in either late November or Early December (this year our rifle season starts Dec 2nd). The first day is always the Monday after Thanksgiving. The leaves are all off the hardwood trees. From a hilltop vantage point a person can often see for miles. Even if the deer is shot from hilltop to hilltop it can't get away after the shot because of the fact that the trees have no leaves and it is open enough to watch the deer run off and die (if it runs off). There is often snow on the ground as well which makes it even easier to track the deer (using a spotting scope).
 
 When the long range guys say the never lost a deer,,,,the above explains why.
 
 Hope this makes it more clear to understand.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Boyd
 
 The blame is not yours, it properly falls on the gun writers who want to please the factory advertisers in the gun mags by pushing their new stuff. You guys unfairly get tarred with the same brush.
 
 Someone kindly invited me to Williamsport the 7th and 8th, not this tiime, Middletown NY gun show is the 7th and a family dinner party the 8th.
 
 Just for the record I think I might revert to the .303 Savage - it fits my shooting skills. When I say revert I mean revert from the 1925 .270, a bit too modern for me, what was the title of that movie, Back to the Future.
 
 Miki

I'm the one that gave you the invite to Willimsport.....There are also match's on the 21st and 22nd of September and the 12th and 13th of Oct.If you can come one of those date's let me know......I might even have a gun you could shoot..You or anybody else is more than welcome to come and see what it's all about......Let me know.....

This thread reminds me of people who dye their hair red, or pierce noses and eyes and then get mad when people stare at them. It seems like all the preponents of 1000 yrd shooting know each other and shoot together. So for whose benifit was the post started ? If all of you were trying to impress us it failed. All you did by patting each other on the back and taking up for each other was make responsible hunters mad. If you wanted to draw attention to yourselves it worked. You need to get over your snobbish attitude regarding those with enough common sense and courage to disagree with you on this forum, and think about what they say. Save your condensending comments about me being a new poster. It doesn,t matter at all how long I've been here, wrong is wrong. It amazes me to think you all could make the statements you have and not expect to be called what you are, I'm to old to be PC, I won't roll over and kiss your ass and tell you all how wonderful you are at LRH. Don't worry I am not going to end this with some sillyassed saying.......max

Hi Max,
 
 Let me be the first to welcome your snobbish attitute to the thread [Linked Image]

As to who is helped - I am for one. I now have a self imposed limit of 650 yards and after hunting with Boyd and talking to him, and others that kill animals at 1000 plus yards I see where it really won't take that much more for me to accomplish that.
 
 If you don't like or have the skill to kill animals to 1000 yards, hey, thats ok by me. I am not going to "force" anybody to hunt in a manner they don't want to hunt. That I leave, to the individual. A couple of years ago I killed a doe at 75 yards - not exactly long range - is it?
 
 I enjoy talking to and learning from people that have killed animals at 1000 plus yards.
 
 I would suggest if you don't like what is being said on this thread, don't respond.
 
 Your negativity may rub off on others. I always try to be a very possitive person.
 
 Have a good one in spite of your snobbish attitude,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Don, stop, you're cracking me up.
 
 You're a positive person? Stop, for a minute, while I swat that flying pig. [Linked Image]

Birdy, birdy in the sky.
 Dropped some whitewash in my eye.
 Do I cry?
 No, I'm just thankfull elephants don't fly!

Don wrote:
 
 "Just as side note, 2 years ago I killed a deer at 75 yards. It was fun but it surely didn't require much in the way of skill. "
 
 Actually, quite the opposite. Ain't that the whole point of HUNTING? Getting close to your prey to take a humane kill?
 
 I'm sorry, but at 1000 yards, you're not hunting, simply shooting.
 
 Now, I'm gonna sit back and wait for the thread about taking a animal with a bow at 200 yards.

Bear,
 
 Correct, on two counts. I did kill a doe at 75 yards a couple of years back and it didn't take much in the way of skill. That doe was no more then 15 feet from me when I first spotted it - I waited till it was 75 yards away before I shot and killed it. Again, not much skill and it was fun. [Linked Image]

Don [Linked Image]

Well now ain't that just peachy.....I ain't impressed,so I'm a snob ! Do you want me to bring you some crayons or play dough ?..........tell me, just what does don know

klallen,
 I am in the below not attacking your character, but rather the way you look at hunting versus shooting. Sooooo, nothing personal.
 No doubts you are an accomplished shooter.
 I too do long range shooting on our limited 800 meter range. We use like you do, wind flags on the range.
 Besides we try to read the mirages.
 In the field there are no windflags and not always mirages. Unlike your home range the terrain is often not familiar and the effects on air currents not known.
 Yes snipers do it all the time, I know and yes they do score hits, but also their share of misses. A gutshot or limbshot enemy soldier is an advantage to us making him a liability to its own forces in tying up personel to look after him. A slight mistake in wind doping will get you just that, a gut shot deer, with a bullet that at that range due to low velocity does not expand. However a wounded deer is not an advantage to us, and the shooter in this case a liability to hunters and hunting in general for taking a big risk he should not have taken. The wounded deer more often then not trots of in a gully or coulie or behind a roll in the land, possibly never to be seen by you again. How are you going to finish it off?
 Load your bench and all equipment in the truck, unload where you saw it last god knows how much later or if ever, and try for another long range shot on a deer you see in the distance and assume it is the same deer??? I say god knows how much later or if ever due to the time packing up, unpacking crossing fences and possibly different properties, disturbance caused by you roaring around in your truck trying to find the place where you last saw it. You think deer are going to hang around for that????? Not the ones here in Alberta during hunting season. In the unlikely case there are any deer dumb enough to hang around, how can you identify your hit deer by spotting the little hole in the rump and the small trikle of blood a non expanding bullet makes ??
 You can not at that distance. You know that too. Therefore most deer so hit will die a slow death never to be retrieved. Of course we will only hear about the kills and not the Oops that one got hit I think and is now running away.
 I have no doubt that you as a skilled shooter can under ideal conditions put a bullet in the boiler room most of the time at that 1000 yard range. However, most of the time is good enough in battle but not not good enough in the hunting field. Also, do we need to prove ourselves that badly that we must try it out on a live deer and take the very high risk of wounding it, and have it die of infection?? Me not think so. I do not treat big game as enemy personel threatening my family or country, so I treat a deer with a lot more respect, not just as another target. Same for other big game species.
 I limit my long range shooting to prairie dogs, gophers. Note I do not state hunting of prairie dogs/gophers. Because I do shoot them @ long range from a bench, knowing that a gut shot from my 22/250 or .308 will kill them in pretty short order. I would hunt prairie dogs if I would try to sneak up to them with my rifle and shoot them at relative short range.
 Sports hunting is killing animals by testing your skills against theirs and their senses. Trying to introduce a sense of fairness and respect for the animal you try to kill.

Max,
 
 How the heck are ya.. long time no see buddy....
 
 oh wait .. I thought I ws talking to a guy who was a little nicer and more respectful.. at least someone of your age should be....
 
 I have NEVER hunted with any of the other LRH on this board or any other... We just have alot of common interests...and now thorught this thing called the internet I have mad some really great friends...
 
 We are not here to pat each other on the back but we do share what we have done recently to "tell our story" to help others learn how and what we do. I have seen many many many people be helped in this forum and others so it must be doing some good....
 
 I kinda feel the way Don Knows does... try to be positive... It is much more effective...
 
 ******Just so anyone doesn't lable me as only a LRH ( my prefered method ) see my post in this forum under ( OT thought I'd share ) ..*******
 
 I can do it at short range as well... under 30 yards too!!!
 
 good day and PMA ( positive mental attitude )

LR shooters:
 
 I have no problem with shooting at long range - as long as you can put 90% of your first round hits in the vital area.
 
 I can shoot sub MOA sitting with a tight sling in calm or slightly windy conditions out to 700 yards. I can shoot well under MOA with a bipod shooting sitting. I also know a 7 inch group at 700 yards means first shot misses on a 10 inch target more than 10% of the time for reasons I discuss below.
 
 I shoot nearly every day at that range, sometimes twice per day (like today). Some of the things that mess you up even at that "close" range are things you guys have not even talked about - light, for one thing. Changes in temperature for another. Mirage absolutely moves the target image. Would love to hear about how you compensate for these.
 
 I agree 600 yards is entirely possible. But I know 700 yards is twice as far as 600. And anyone who cannot shoot groups significantly under 10 inches at 1000 yards is kidding themselves.
 
 But the real problems is the wind. A one mph wind blows a .308 180 grain bullet going 3400 fps almost 3 inches at 700 yards. I find that tough. Today I had only a slight wind and clicked left and right as the wind went back and forth. At 700 yards I can keep my shots with 5 inches 90 percent, but it is laughable farther out. At 1000 yards a one mph wind causes my bullets to drift nearly 7 inches. Think about that - a group of one inch at 1000 yards is completely blown out of the vital area if the wind varies by more than 1 mph...how do you guys get that one right?
 
 I do agree with some of the points - I have taken shots at running animals at close range that I had less than a 90% chance of taking, so I am not purporting to be pure.
 
 So DaveKnows and others, what is your accuracy standard? How do you account for a wind speed that is impossible to detect on your face, let alone see 1000 yards away?
 
 Here is one for you...how do you account for up and down angles?
 
 At what point does it become too far?

DonKnows, I am referring to your post in page 1 of this stupid, unethical debate where you say "it's kind of like eastern SD, only with trees" Well my friend, I am from eastern SD and when you get east of about Miller, you can't shoot 1000 yds without running into a house, road, trees or the like. This is an absolutely stupid subject, if you want to shoot targets at 1000 yds and brag about it, great, I'd love to shoot at a 1000 yds range someday and I greatly admire those of you who are damned good at it. But please reserve the target practice for paper and steel, hunt deer and get as close as you can to make a good, lethal shot EVERY time. I consider my max range on deer to be 400 yds., and that's a rare shot here in Eastern SD. Just my .02
 Selmer

Selmer,
 
 Kinda hypocritical, "get as close as you can" but then you have a self imposed limit of 400 yards. Thats a pretty good poke for a guy who believes in only Short Range Hunting. Seems to me there is lotsa room to get closer???????

I've only shot a few deer at 400 yds. and it was as close as I could get. They occurred in western South Dakota after a mile or more of stalking using the terrain of the Missouri River breaks.with a spotter next to me with binoculars and a bipod out of a prone position. I practice with my .30-06 at these ranges, but choose not to take those shots unless conditions are perfect. Coming from someone who thinks 1000 yds. is as close as they can get, I don't take that as much of a flame response. I'll stick to my guns, literally.
 Selmer

Selmer,
 
 Well you're a classic example of "old school" to bad you can't be open minded enough to accept a different side of things. I am glad to hear you had a spotter.
 For the record I don't think 1000 yards is as close as I can get.
 Just so you know I spend 6 weeks a year guiding Elk and Mule Deer hunters. Not only do I have to get close but I have the responsibility of getting 2 other individuals close as well. The closest this year was 23 steps on a 5X6 bull Elk.
 I prefere LRH as it is a new challenge to me. There are several areas here that trophy animals live in because you cannot get close. This is where the skills of Long Range Hunting come in handy.
 You stick to your guns but you limit youself as a person if you're not willing to open your mind to new and different things. I am not just talking about hunting either.
 Enjoy your day. Hope you don't miss anything new and exciting.

I don't limit myself to old ideas, maybe in my hunting, but that's what I prefer. If your new challenge is hitting an animal at 1000 yds., go for it, and good luck guiding your hunters. It's always been my dream to get paid for guiding hunters, we do it around here for friends and family, and it's almost more rewarding for me to get my friends and family in a position to fill their freezers or get a trophy than it is for me to shoot it myself. I'm a musician and a band director, we have to be open to new ideas or we don't survive in the business, but I also bowhunt and really enjoy getting close to game. If I have a limited amount of time to fill my tag in order to fill my freezer, I'll take the long shots, but I prefer to take my time and get closer. In my opinion, to each his own, I just hope you don't cause any suffering on a poorly hit animal at those ranges, that's my main concern. Good luck at your challenge and may your clients shoot straight!
 Selmer

Selmer,
 
 Seems you answered your own questions. If not, then you contridicted yourself [Linked Image]

" DonKnows, I am referring to your post in page 1 of this stupid, unethical debate where you say "it's kind of like eastern SD, only with trees" Well my friend, I am from eastern SD and when you get east of about Miller, you can't shoot 1000 yds without running into a house, road, trees or the like. This is an absolutely stupid subject, if you want to shoot targets at 1000 yds and brag about it, great, I'd love to shoot at a 1000 yds range someday and I greatly admire those of you who are damned good at it. But please reserve the target practice for paper and steel, hunt deer and get as close as you can to make a good, lethal shot EVERY time. I consider my max range on deer to be 400 yds., and that's a rare shot here in Eastern SD. Just my .02
 Selmer"
 
 My reference to SD was one of how flat it is here, as it is in south eastern SD. I guess you missinterpreted that info.
 
 You say in another post that if you don't have the time you shoot animals at longer range. Then come off at me for killing deer at long range. Sorry bud, but ya confused yourself there.
 
 Then you go on to say:"I've only shot a few deer at 400 yds. and it was as close as I could get."
 I choose to kill deer at long range for many of the same reasons as Wyo does - because I enjoy the challenge of it. I have already killed plenty of deer at 100 or less yards.
 The week prior to our deer season I was in my stand, practicing and shooting at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 and 700 yards to verify my "come ups" on my scope. My self imposed limit (as of now) is 650 yards. Out to that limit my worst shot (from the stand I hunt from) was 2" from my aiming point. I was 2" low at 400 yards. At 500 yards I was 1" low and at 600 yards I was 1" low. That is more then good enough to kill any deer - all other conditions being right.
 
 In a few years, with a lot of practice and a couple of changes to my firearm I see no problems in killing a deer to 1000 yards. You can label that as "bragging" if you so desire. I am just stating what I personally set as a goal for myself.
 
 The deer I killed on opening day (this season) was at a mere 350 yards. Not a "LONG" kill for sure. It just happens thats where the deer was. I am still hopeful that a deer will step out at the 650 yard mark.
 
 If you choose to call long range hunting bragging, then thats your choice. I respectfully disagree with your wording and thats my choice.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

I guess it's all in how you read the post DonKnows. I didn't mean to make you feel bad, but to me, 400yds. is a long shot. For you 700 yds. is apparently a long shot. For some others 2000yds. is a long shot, and for still others, 200yds. is a long shot. All I'm saying is that a bullet better start out damned fast to have the energy to CLEANLY kill a deer at 1000yds. 400 yds. is my limit, yours is apparently 650 yds. Good for you, it means you've had the opportunity and discipline to kill a deer at 650 yds. Even if I don't think it's ethical, apparently some people have killed deer at 1000+yds. I've never seen it done, and I firmly believe that seeing is believing. Sometime I'd like to go shoot with Darryl Cassel and his wife and see how this is done. My opinion is my opinion, it can and has changed a bit. Seeing the long range thing done consistently would change my opinion. One does not know what can be accomplished until one sees it for one's self. I haven't seen it, so it's hard for me to believe and just sounds unethical, but as some others have pointed out, it's probably no more unethical than me rolling a whitetail at 200 yds. at a dead run. That shot is one I can make 9 times out of 10 and have done it because it's how I grew up shooting. I grew up shooting cottontails on the run with a scoped .22 and it easily transfers to deer and I know I can make the running shot, so I do. There you go DonKnows, I'm not trying to be mean or degrading, I'm just stating my opinion. Most everything on the internet is opinion because it lacks imperical data.
 Selmer

Don:
 
 So how do know the wind exactly at 1000 yards?
 
 I also asked about elevation compensation, which you ignored. Most "experts" love to lecture how you only need to compensate for the horizontal distance, etc. Well, this may work at normal ranges, but fails miserably at "Don" ranges.

LR,
 
 "So how do know the wind exactly at 1000 yards? "
 
 Short answer. I don't.
 
 The field I hunt is 750 yards at the longest point. If "all" conditions are NOT right I will not squeeze the trigger at 650 yards. One of those conditions is a "crosswind". On a calm day - less than a 5mph wind - I will take the shot at 650 yards. Maybe you read over that part?
 
 When you say "elevation compensation" are you talking about the altitude or are you talking about the "come-ups" necessary to kill the deer to 650 yards? Since I am not sure which you mean, I will respond to both.
 
 The "altitude" here at home is about 900 feet above sea level. I pratice out of the stand I use while hunting at all the distances I plan to kill deer - out to 650 yards. By actually shooting at the various distances I know what my "come-ups" are to 650 yards. When I went to Colorado last fall I shot while I was there and determined my "come-ups" (for there) at 9500 feet above sea level.
 
 If you mean how high above the barrel plane do I shoot to 650 yards that is determined by actually shooting at the various distances. The vertical adjustments are made via the "target knob" on the scope I use. I have a sheet with all the vertical adjustments (come-ups) for various yardages.
 
 If you were thinking I used "Hold over" out to 650 yards - I don't.
 
 So, when you say this fails miserably at "Don" ranges - actually it works rather nicely. [Linked Image]

Should you have any further questions, I will do my best to answer them.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Semer,
 
 Its all good - you didn't make me feel bad [Linked Image]

As to the "ethics" of killing animals. My thoughts - It is ethical to cleanly kill any animal. As long as I am 99% sure, when I squeeze the trigger, I am ethically hunting. Now this is only my personal standard - nobody elses. I agree in that for some 200 yards wouldn't be ethical and for others 200 yards is a chip shot. It all depends on how much one practices and to what distances.
 
 I shy away from ethical debates as much as possible because to "me" ethics are a personal choice and not dictated by society as some believe. If those people believe that ethics are determined by a society then they have that right to that belief - it just isn't mine. That doesn't make me right and them wrong, or the other way around, it merely makes us "different".
 
 I have seen Daryl and his wife shoot. Actually I think his wife shot better then he did, overall, this past season. I met with them both and had a conversation with Daryl about long range shooting. I have seen kills on deer to 1200 yards.
 
 One thing that "some" don't understand is that one only needs "one" clean shot to kill a deer - at whatever their max distance is. When asked, what kind of group (10 shots) do you shoot at 1000 yards, it really isn't very significant for the purpose of killing a deer or an elk. That first shot is the critical shot. When shooting at 1000 yards in competition (and I sure am no expert in that arena) you have a limited amount of time to shoot 10 rounds. Late last summer I shot at Williamsport, just for fun, to see how my deer rifle would fair. I did manage all 10 shots on the paper. By the time I shot the 10th round, for score, the barrel was so hot had I put my hand on it I would surely of burned my hand. That isn't the case while deer hunting to your max distance. There isn't that added self pressure of trying to place 10 rounds as close together on a deer, like there is on paper, within a time limit or before conditions change. The competition and practice for bench rest shooting will definately assist in preparation for long range hunting but thats where it all ends - as to similarities.
 
 Providing I have zero wind, the deer is eating, standing broadside and other weather conditions are basically clear and I have plenty of time to determine the exact distance, adjust my elevation (target knob), not shaking to bad that day, and all is clear beyond the deer, then and only then do I take the killing (one) shot at my max distance.
 
 I passed on over 30 deer this past rifle season because conditions were not right. I killed my doe at 350 yards. Now, 350 yards, to me, isn't very far and I was 99% sure that when I squeezed the trigger, that deer was going to be cleanly dead. It went 30 yards after the bullet passed through and it died - quickly.
 
 To "me", thats very ethical.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Selmer,
 
 Before I am cast into the tar pit and then covered with feathers I will try to answer your "energy" question. I wasn't skipping it, just failed to explain it on my other post - please excuse my oversight. [Linked Image]

I use a 300 win mag and a 180gr ballistic tip at a measured velocity of 3180FPS 10 feet from the muzzle.
 
 According to a computer generated program these are the energy levels:
 
 100 yards - 3841
 
 200 yards - 3360
 
 300 yards - 2925
 
 400 yards - 2184
 
 500 yards - 1871
 
 600 yards - 1593
 
 700 yards - 1348
 
 Since my self imposed limit is 650 yards I can say that the energy level is somewhere between 1593 and 1348 at 650 yards.
 
 I am not a huge fan in energy levels - but you asked. I beleive that bullet design/construction/geometry play a larger role in how a bullet performs when it hits/enters a deer. The BC will have other affects but once that bullet enters the animal, to me, BC has no bearing.
 
 If I used a blunt nosed bullet versus a pointed bullet I firmly belive that the pointed bullet will pass through the deer more cleanly then the blunt nosed bullet - simply based on geometry and construction. As well all know there are many different "types" of bullets made for various applications. If I use a bullet of such a design to allow it to pass through the deer with lower energy levels - thereby cleanly killing the deer - I am a happy camper and an ethical one as well (I know, I said I hated discussing ethics).
 
 At 1000 yards the above bullet has 778 ft lbs of energy. I have heard it takes 800 ft lbs to kill a deer. Then again, I have heard it takes 600 ft lbs of energy to kill a deer. I look at it this way, how much energy does an arrow have going at 200 ft per second? Very little. I do realize that arrows kill my cutting and bullets don't, but I hope one can see that if a bullet passes through at long range, the deer is going to die - providing a good shot placement.
 
 I also realize many different scenarios could be used to prove me wrong but just as many could be used to prove me correct.
 
 Just for chits and giggles I compared my 300 win mag using 180gr BT's against my 7mm mag using 120gr HV Bullets at 3635 FPS 10 feet from the muzzle and the energy levels from my 7mm mag (using that bullet and velocity) are actually higher out to 1000 yards. I would never consider using the 7mm mag for 1000 yards shooting though, due to the fact that the HV bullet doesn't shoot anywhere near as accurate as the 180gr BT does out of my 300 win mag.
 
 Basically, for me, energy is a mute point within certain parameters.
 
 Hope this answers your question.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Interesting post.
This brings to mind a true story I will share about long range shooting.
Years ago while working day watch as police Lieutentant I was hanging around the local gun shop.
( gun shop, not donut shop)
A fellow was buying some supplies and mentioned that he was a fireman for another city. We struck up a conversation and he mentioned he was going after elk in a few weeks. We got around to talking about calibers and he said he used a 30-378.
"What's that?", says I. And he took me out to his truck and showed it to me.
It was a custom 1" by 30" long bench gun that weighed about 30 pounds including the 36X Leupold target scope.
"Hunting rifle!" I exclaimed. He explained that he did not "HUNT" elk, he "SHOT" elk.
He said his longest shot was 1700 yards. He and two friends have a spot in the mountains that overlooks a large grassy valley and they "kill" elk at long range.
Was this guy telling the truth? I don't know, but he sure did have some nice equipment.
The bottom line is that he never claimed to be a hunter, but a killer at long range.
I love to hunt.
I hunt with a muzzle laoder, revolver and bow.
To me there is nothing about hunting in shooting game animals at 100 yards.
That is simply not hunting at all, merely killing and increasing the very real possiblity of wounding a critter.

Near the end of your post I assume you meant to type 1000 yards, not 100 yards. On the other hand killing animals at 100 yards tends to scare the $^&$* out of them due to the noise level. At long range the noise is so minimal that animals act/react in a very different manner.

You have every right to your "opinion" as do I, they just aren't the same.

Have you ever seen anybody kill an animal at 1000 yards?

Have a good one,

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don:

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I would agree 650 yards is a shot that one can reasonably expect to achieve 90% hits - it is a far cry from 1000 and certainly not 1300 yards. Having shot a lot at long range, I also know the wind drift is manageable at that range, as long as it is moderate (the other day I shot at 700 yards and dialed in 30 inches of wind - hit my 3 inch cirlce with the first shot from bipod sitting, but that was pretty much luck).

With respect to elevation, I was talking about the effects of downhil/uphill shooting. A legion of gunwriters has led everyone to believe a bullet is only affected by the horizontal distance, but this is not true. Time of flight always matters, and time of flight is longer at 700 yards on a 45 degree angle than it is at 490 yards (the eq. horizontal distance).

Anyway, good luck. I don't hunt deliberately at long range, but doubt that there are many who shoot as much as I do at long range in a variety of environmental conditions.

I often wonder what has happened to hunting. I see on TV "hunters" sitting in a barn or large blind with stoves and rests out of the windows, watching a field where the deer feed each day.
Then some deer come into the field to feed and when a buck comes in one of the hunters rests his scope sighted rifle over the window rest and kills it. "Great shot!" someone says.

Now there was not great skill required to make that shot. There was NO hunting involved. It was simply shooting an animal under greatly controlled conditions. There is no real sport in that.

I also see many programs where they drive their ATVs to the area and then get out and walk a few yards and sit and watch an area. If some of them had to walk from camp or the nearest road they could not do it.

Now for 1000 yard shooting. It takes a great deal of skill to shoot well at that distance. Wind, mirage, and other factors make it challenging. I wish I had been interested in it when I was young, but I was too busy huntiing.
To shoot a deer at 1000 yards under any field conditions would be difficult. However, it is not hunting. If one wants to do those things, and they are legal, then go for it, but don't call it hunting. It is just shooting. Little to no hunting skill is involved. It might require, under certain conditions, some physical stamina to get there, but it is not hunting.

Hunting is about meeting the game on its own terrain where it has some chance to discover you, and get away. In the West the distance of 500 yards is about the limit where the game has a decent chance to see you and that you have to use skill in stalking.

Hunting is about getting our of a plane in a river bed, and carrying everything on your back you will need for a week or so, climb to the game and if successful carrying it out on a packboard. I would rather do that on a horse, but I never had the opportunity.

Jerry

fuel 4 the antis

Gerry,

I havn't posted here in a while so I thought, " why not now"

I tend to agree on you with the "outta the barn" scenario or the ATV thing.. I also agree that most hunters are becoming VERY LAZY!!! I have several guys every year that we guide that hunt via ATV.. they are over weight, and unprepared.. they think that just cause they have a horse while hunting here, they won't have to work at it.. WRONG... most of todays "new hunters" really don't have a clue how to hunt they mostly have money and buy all the toys and gadgets and as luck will have it.. they might see something and if they are really lucky get a shot at something and if their shot is incredibly lucky they will hit it.. most of todays "new hunters" think that money and toys buys success.. I see it every year....

"Hunting is about meeting the game on its own terrain where it has some chance to discover you, and get away. In the West the distance of 500 yards is about the limit where the game has a decent chance to see you and that you have to use skill in stalking. "

I agree and disagree.. I am not usre hunting is about letting the animal discover you???
500 yards is close but that is realative to conditions...

"Hunting is about getting our of a plane in a river bed, and carrying everything on your back you will need for a week or so, climb to the game and if successful carrying it out on a packboard. I would rather do that on a horse, but I never had the opportunity."

I do this but, not by plane by horse.. I have several places where I can shoot from 10 yards to 1500 yards ..

do you call this hunting??? Even if I kill something at 800 yards.. is it still hunting to you???

When I am not doing it by horse.. I will hike 2-5 miles with all I need on my back for the day.. my favorite spot allows for a 1200 yard shot..or a 50 yard shot, is this hunting??

Just curious for your perspective or point of view on "my style" of hunting???

WyoWhisper,
To hike to a position that allows shooting from 50 to 1200 yards is hiking and not hunting. It is hard work, but hiking is not hunting.

One might hike in to a hunt area, and hunt from there. If one is hunting and does get a shot at 1000 yards on a great trophy, I do not blame him for taking the shot if there is little chance of getting closer.

My real problem, is the use of so much technology in the way of ATV, rangefinders, and radios that there is not very much skill involved. And in addition there is little physical stamina and strength required.

Consider that once a hunter had to learn to estimate range. He had no range finder. He had to walk or maybe, if he was especially fortunate, ride a horse. He scouted the area for the game and learned the habits of the game in that area, and had to find the kind of trophies he desired. He had to make decisions regarding where he could hunt and take an animal and get it out before it spoiled. Again, a horse solved some of those problems, but the average hunter did not have a horse.
I guess one reason that I never desired to hunt with a guide is that I considered myself a hunter and not just a shooter. When I got the game I had accomplished it on my own with the game having some chance.

The last 13 years that I hunted deer I hunted with a muzzleloader. I hate the things, but the quality of hunting was better. I only got 10 deer because the muzzleloader and I did not get along. I had 13 good chances. I do not remember ever blowing chances with a centerfire rifle.
I also learned more about deer from those 13 years that the 35 or so prior to that. I had always scouted the area, located the bucks, and it was more often than not a kill shortly after daylight the opening day. I could always get within 300 or so yards and that was a "piece of cake."

That changed with the ML. I had to get closer and had to be more careful about how I stalked the animal to get within 50 yards. Often I was not able to get close enough and did not get that deer.

When it gets down to it, I like to hunt. I do not want someone to run a deer to me, or ride a ATV to a high hill and set up with my rangefinder and 6X14 scope on a heavy barrel super accurate rifle (That most couldn't carry in the mountains day after day) and shoot at 1000 yards. If I am not on the ground in the deer's area and where he has a chance, then I am not doing what I consider sport hunting.

Part of my problem is that I am 70 and grew up in the golden days of hunting on this continent. As a soldier I was able to hunt Alaska in the early 60s. Jack O'Conner, Elmer Keith, Warren Page, and Townsend Whelan were my models.

I realize that no one is going to be persuaded by my own preferences, but my opinion is that there is little real sport hunting going on, and few that would recognize it if they saw it. That is what I think about someone wanting to kill deer at 1000 yards as the objective of the hunt. It is the objective that is the key.

Animals are easily taken if there are no rules. The difference is that to truly sport hunt you follow the rules of the law, and the methods which give the game some chance.
I never hunted Polar Bear in Alaska. I could have gone on a guided hunt for $500. That was a fair amount in 1962-64. However, the reason I did not want to go is that the hunting was done from two planes. A bear was spotted and the hunter landed. The second plane basically herded the bear to the hunter. I know from personal friends who did go that this was the way it was done. What has one done when he has killed a bear that way? He is just a shooter. I realize I could have maybe hunted from a dog sled, but I had neither the time or money.

So much for my ideas.

Jerry

jmartin

"To hike to a position that allows shooting from 50 to 1200 yards is hiking and not hunting. It is hard work, but hiking is not hunting.My real problem, is the use of so much technology in the way of ATV, rangefinders, and radios that there is not very much skill involved. And in addition there is little physical stamina and strength required."

Ok hard work.. agreed, not hunting WAY DISAGREE.. why do you think I am hiking to THAT area? Could it be that I scouted, maybe I know the migration trails in that area?
What exactly is wrong with a range finder? That assures you a known distance to your target! If you know your rifle and have shot it more that a couple of times and have a drop chart this only insure you that you will not wound and animal and will kill it with one shot. That is a whole lot better than Kentucky windage and elevation don't you think. I agrre there is little stamina or strngth required when using an ATV but my friend I inviste you to "tag" along with me one day when I hike to my chosen areas....we will see what little strenght and stamina is required.

"He scouted the area for the game and learned the habits of the game in that area, and had to find the kind of trophies he desired. He had to make decisions regarding where he could hunt and take an animal and get it out before it spoiled. Again, a horse solved some of those problems, but the average hunter did not have a horse."

This is aore spot for me since I am a professional guide. But nevertheless I will rebut your comment..
I do every year darn near all year long.. scout areas. I have several areas wher it is impossible to "stalk" on a mulie! They have areas where even the BIG cats have a hard time getting to them. If you would stalk this area they would be gone well before you got there.. they can see you coming from their cliff top thrones.. these are the areas where I have the 1200 yard shots.. I also have a days work to pack them out.
Sorry my friend the average hunter here ...HAS A HORSE.. it just goes hand in hand with hunting our here.... maybe not the flat land areas but guys who hunt the mountains have a horse or find a way to get one...

"I guess one reason that I never desired to hunt with a guide is that I considered myself a hunter and not just a shooter. When I got the game I had accomplished it on my own with the game having some chance"

OK.. deep breath...
Most guys that want to hunt the west do not have the opportunity to scout the areas and gather the data needed to hut this HUGE amount of space efficiently... that's where WE come in. Trust me I don;t hve a picture perfect meadow where the trophys just lay around all day a feed on luch grasses for you greehorns to come take your pick... when I guide you it is HUNTING all the way. Sure I know areas where the deer and elk travel or migrate too, but that ain't NO guarentee!!!These are areas I know of after years of scouting or hours of beggin an old timer to give me a hint about what he knows!!! If you would come her on your own it might take years to find areas wher you can find and stalk what your after....
believe me the game out here has a chance.. a better chance than you...

That changed with the ML. I had to get closer and had to be more careful about how I stalked the animal to get within 50 yards. Often I was not able to get close enough and did not get that deer.

"When it gets down to it, I like to hunt. I do not want someone to run a deer to me, or ride a ATV to a high hill and set up with my rangefinder and 6X14 scope on a heavy barrel super accurate rifle (That most couldn't carry in the mountains day after day) and shoot at 1000 yards."

It is illegal to run deer here.. won;t see anyone doing it.
Carrying my heavy barreled super accurate rifle day after day is where the stamina comes in.....

"If I am not on the ground in the deer's area and where he has a chance, then I am not doing what I consider sport hunting."
I am in the deers area all the time from the moment I set foot out my back door or until I reach one of my "spots" I sit at.. I am hunting the whole time.. then I move to another location to sit.. I am hunting the whole time....

"I realize that no one is going to be persuaded by my own preferences, but my opinion is that there is little real sport hunting going on, and few that would recognize it if they saw it. That is what I think about someone wanting to kill deer at 1000 yards as the objective of the hunt. It is the objective that is the key."

You are "old school" I respect that I learned most of my skills from my grandfather who was a woodsman in PA .. he was in my opinion the best there was...

Don't think for a moment that there is no skill involved shooting a great distances.. don't think for a moment that the guys that hunt the way we do don't spend hours in the woods during the off season.. walking, and learning about the deer and animals in the area.. that all comes into consideration when the season is here... just 2 days ago I found an area, I never knew was there as it was hidden by a draw and a guly and you couldn't see it unless you really studied what you were looking at.. upon walking another mile I reached this littel honey hole only to see 5 bucks that would give anyone buck fever.. now all I need to do is fingure out how the get to and from this area... see it's all part of the package...

Jerry, part of your problem ( from reading your post ) is that you see it done one way from one type of guide and you think they all are that way... sorry my friend but we "ain't all alike"
If you hunt with me YOU HUNT WITH ME. The state law says to hunt wilderness areas you need a resident with a resident guide license or a licensed outfitter/guide. I have a list of people that can tell you it isn't only a hunt it is an entire experience!!! Sure we cook for your tack up your horse, and kiss you a$$ alittle but your paying us for an experience.. but when we are hunting, we are all hunting!!

If I choose to hunt from long range! I shoose to hunt from long range... don't hink for a min. that there is not hours/days of scouting involved. I know the boys from PA do the same thing.. you see the posts every now and again... " hey I found another spot" or.. "I'm going into the woods tomorrow to look for another area"

don't short change the LRH's without first knowing what is involved...

Jerry, I got bad news for ya.... you are not into all the technology and hunting, you think they don't intermix... well then you might have a problem cause right now your using technology to read this post.. and this post is about hunting...

it is all relative... but we are just using what we can to be better at it.. I do agree therea re "slob" hunters out there that shouldn't be called hunters.. most of them are "armchair" hunters.. but don't say all the young ones are like that... some of us have had men like you teach us waht we know and we use that every time we go afield.. but we also us e the technology to make it more efficient, more accurate.. that isn't such a bad thing.. if technology we so good don't you think every day a new world record would be had.. there is still hunting invovled... believe me...

WyoWhisper
I didn't expect to change anyone's opinion. I just expressed mine. We agree on some things and disagree on others. So be it.

I suspect your hunters have good hunts. I continue to think that to go hunting with the OBJECTIVE of shooting game at 1000 yards is not sporting.

Anyway, to each his own.

Jerry

You still have to walk that 1,000 yards to pick up the deer, why not walk the 1,000 yards first and then shoot the deer?

Justme,

I think you meant to direct your question to somebody other then me, but thats ok.

Rarely do I "walk" up to a deer after I shoot it, if I am shooting a deer at long range. Most of the time, if there isn't to much snow on the ground, I drive my truck up to the dead deer. Why drag a deer when I can drive right up to it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have a good one,

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don,
How about checking your private messages... Have a question for you.

Regards, Matt.

I see you're still at it Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.How are those bullet's coming.I sent you an e-mail but got it back <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don,there is no road on this hill <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [Linked Image]

Matt,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Generally when I have mail this little envelope flashes on the top of my screen. I didn't see it so I didn't check my PM box.

Sorry.

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Boyd,

Sorry about the E-mail getting sent back. I cancelled that account. You can reach me at:

sales@groovebullets.com

As to "no roads" go, you saw where I deer hunt when you were here last summer - killing woodchucks. I have hunted in the hills of PA before and I know you well enough to know you can make your own road, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

OR

You send a younger guy out after the deer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bullet orders will be accepted starting next week. Send me an E-mail and let me know what your looking for.

Have a good one,

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you any pictures to post of the bullets Don?
Bill

Partsman,

We are working on the web site right now and will have it up and running next week. I personally do not have any pictures of the bullets. However, my web site developer has the actual bullets and he will take pictures, crop them and put them on the web site.

I am hoping to have some "proofs" of the web site avilable this weekend so I can make a final rewiew and get the site on line to the public.

All of the information and test results will be on the web site. I am now waiting to hear from an outside source for additional test data. The objective is to drive a 101gr 25 caliber EXP Groove Bullet at 4000 plus FPS with 1/2 moa accuracy. The preliminary results show that the 4000 FPS barrier has already been broken using Groove Bullets out of a 25 STW. Further testing will show if 1/2 MOA accuracy can be maintained at that velocity.

There will also be photo's of actual kills using Groove Bullets - entrance and exit holes - showing the affects.
As soon as the site is open to the public I will let you know.

Have a good one,

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Geez, can I get my opinion in on this thread too?

Just to set the ground work, I believe all posters are posting the truth about the ranges that they shoot at and the skill level that they posses that allows them to accurately put the bullet in the vital organs of the animal they are shooting at.

I see people claim to shoot deer at 1000, 700, 500, 400, 300, and 200 yards.
My personal skill level with the gun that I shoot I would consider 250 to be about my limit. I would consider 300 yards a loooong shot.

That being said, if it is "unethical and just [color:"red"] [/color] shooting [color:"black"] [/color] " instead of "hunting" at 1000 yards by the fellow that shoots deer at his maximum comfort range of 400 yards wouldnt it be justifiable for me who has a limit of 250 yards to say that a 400 yard shot is unethical and is not hunting? Wait, then the person that uses a 12 ga. slug could look at me as being a sniper and not a hunter. But then again, those folks that throw pointy sticks could claim the shotgun shooter is not hunting but just shooting.

I cannot see where labeling the range XXX yards makes the shot either unethical or "not hunting".

If (and I make the presumption at the beginning of this post) the shooters skills and equipment are up to the task of a 1000 yards shot, then only the shooter has the ability to make the judgement at the time he pulls the trigger as to whether it is an ethical shot.

As far as my definition of "hunting" goes. I believe "hunting" can be described as ANY legal method of taking the game as outlined by the local game laws.

Tell me if you believe the following description to be hunting or not-hunting.

A group of 9 fellows meet at the predetermined spot. One fellow remains behind while the others walk away to the spots that they had selected from previous trips. After the eight had been gone for an hour, the man opened the back of his truck and let out 5 dogs and put them into a patch of woods. The dogs were not gone but a minute or two and then they jumped 3 does an 2 bucks, the chase was on. More deer were alarmed in this 120 acre patch of woods and all totaled 16 deer ran out thru different paths. Bang, Bang, Bang, 13 shots rang out, the double ought buck shot accounted for 11 of the 16 deer.

Now, if that is in Wyoming or Montana or Arizona then no it is not hunting because it is illegal. In south Alabama and south Georgia, it is not illegal and would be considered just another viable hunting method. People in these places do not think it is immoral or unethical (letting your dogs run on someone elses property is though).

So what is unethical about shooting a deer at 1000 yards as opposed to shooting one at 400 yards? One of the great tenants of hunting is to be able to pull the trigger on a game animal that is unaware of your presence. From the deers perspective does it care if the bullet starts its journey from 100 yards away or from 1000 yards away? In either case, the bullet gets to it before the sound does.

Jim B

JB,

You make some very distinct points. As I said before I don't like "ethical" debates becasue they are a personal issue and not a certain set of rules apply to everybody.

Your information about the rifle, versus shotgun, versus archery hunter are very valid points and something for all of us to think about. Going by your examples I would say that they are all "Hunting".

I think the 2 words - Hunting and Ethics - are where the real debates start getting heated. We don't all follow the same definitions of those 2 words and that may be where the debates take off on a tangent.

To use archery versus rifle "hunting" I have been in conversations where one archery hunter says: Nobody has any business shooting any animal beyond 30 yards and then the other archery hunters says he has hunted to within 40 yards and has cleanly killed the animal. Again, it depends on the skill level of the individual. Some archery hunters feel a comfort zone at 30 yards and others are comfortable at 40 yards - or whatever they practice to. In any case they are all hunting.

Thank you for your informative post.

Have a good one,

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don: Thanks for the reply, will be nice to see how the bullets work in a 25-06.
Look forward to seeing the Web site.
Bill

Here is a pic of my Father-in Law about 3 second's before taking a buck at 700 yard's [Linked Image]

Ditto. If you want to snipe animals @ 20yds with a bow (hidden in a tree blah blah blah) - fine, but don't be putting down the skilled long range shooters. Sometimes people have way tooooooo many opinions. I think its Partsman logo - about life guards and the human gene pool.................very well said.

One thing I have learned for sure over the last 50 years and that includes about as much hunting experience as the human can have and that is that a the better the shot, the more likly he will wound and animal at beyond 400 yards, he won't miss but he will sooner of later hit the gut or leg, whereas the lousy shot will normally miss them altogether, so when a great shot tells me he can kill at 1000 yards I put him in the bullshit catagory and define him as a non-sportsman....Our magnificent game animals deserve better than that..... A 400 yard plus shooter is not a hunter, he is a preditor of the worst degree....His ego surrounds his p size brain....

Ray

"I post this only because it seems out-of-character from how I've interpreted most of your posts." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This seems a little harsh coming from you, I'd guess you're having a "bad hair" day.

Here's a post you made a while back... on another board.

"I would stay with the .270 Winchester, If it is out of range for a 270 then it is too far away to be shooting at....400 yards is a maximum range and only for a few..beyond that is unsportsmanlike and show disrespect for a fine game animal...I am as guilty as the next guy of shooting at extended ranges, but as I grew older and after a few bad experiences, I figured it out...I can hit an animal every shot at up to 600 yards for sure and sometimes beyond that, but I never know where I am going to hit him...A bad shot just misses and goes on, as I have said before therein lies the problem...If your a good shot then you more than anyone else should turn down shots beyond 400 and most of those are two far.......

--------------------
Ray Atkinson"

You seem to hold true to your 400 yard limit but mention that you've crossed this boundry at least a few times yourself.

We all make mistakes in life, some are making mistakes when they shoot past 400 yards, some are making mistakes when they limit others. Point is, we all learn from the (our) mistakes, it's human nature... If we act upon the mistakes and limit ourselves to what's responsibly possible we're headed in the correct direction, if we blunder forward in an irresponsible manner then we're Pea-brains (as I see it).

Respectfully submitted to a (400 yard limit) former pea-brain from a (650 yard limit) hopefully former pea-brain.

/r

Been interesting reading.....well some of it anyway. I can't see comparing this with bow hunting at all like some have. At bow hunting ranges, the animals are able to atleast use their senses, it is up to the hunter to defeat those senses. Kind of hard for the animal to do that from the next county. I'm also sure there are a bunch of guys that are very good at it, if thats hunting to them, go ahead. Truth is, most guys are incapable of making even 400 yard shots. That may not be true of many of the guys on this forum but overall, I'd put money on it. My ideas of hunting probably differ from many and truthfully, I've never killed anything over 400 yards except paper and the other occasional inanimate objects. Longest kill I've made on big game is a shade over 300. Sure not going to tell anyone they shouldn't take those long shots, just do it safe and know your limitations.....and stick to them. For me, I'm going to keep trying to sneak up on them and stick my muzzle in their ears, haven't gotten that close yet but I'm working on it.

Guys I'm new to your forum, probably should leave this alone, but I'm going to put my 2 cents in. I can see both sides of this issue. I really enjoy shooting at long range, but when it comes to hunting, I try to get as close as I can. The reason for that is I know what these deer here are capable of. They'll run at astonishing distances with hearts blown in half and both lungs gone. Only time I've ever saw them drop like lightning had struck them was from a neck or head shot. If they'll do that at ranges under 500yds, it's kinda silly to intentionally set-up to do it at a 1000 plus yards. A guy might get by with that on those eastern deer, but not with some of these big boys. I shoot a 535gr. bullet and these deer still run, and they are well placed shots, so that can't be debated. Like I said earlier, I really enjoy shooting at long range, anything over 500yds up to 1000yds., it's fun, but not a wise move with these deer. It is also my opinion that if this ole boy can get within 200 or 300yds of a deer in these wide open areas, anyone hunting wooded and hilly or mountainous areas damn sure can! And to the guys that can shoot those eastern deer at those 1000yd. and farther, that's fine. I'm not denying your talent. It just wouldn't apply here or areas where the game is large. It is also my opinion that if you have to set up these rifles on tri-pods, with spotting scopes and range finders on tri-pods, you are just shooting, not hunting. My equipment consist of shooting sticks and Bushnell Pro 1000 rangefinder. No scope on my "baby", globe front and vernier rear, so the rangefinder is a must for sure shot placement. And for those guys that say "I don't wound deer", "they fall within a few yards of where their shot", that all falls back on those smaller deer also. I don't wound deer either, but sometimes its taken a hellava lot of looking to find one thats ran off from a well placed shot. The latest example would be last week with a doe, shot thru both lungs with that 535gr. and ran almost 200yds. before she fell dead. The day before my brother-in-law shot a buck that ran 120-130yds. with his heart cut in half. The buck I shot ran 109yds. with both lungs gone. Anyway, with these deer, that's why no one around here sits on a hilltop with rifle and gear on tri-pods waiting for one to come along.

Ive hunted with some "self-proclaimed long range shooters" and to a man they all cripped game. One nit-wit had all his ranges/drops taped on the side of his .300 weatherby and had his laser range finder. He whined all week about not getting shots at elk, and then the last day he poked a 600 yrd one. Hit the animal square in the ass, his guide saw it in his glass. But the long ranger decided he didnt hit it, and refused to go canyon crawling after the bull.

In my experience this has been the "typical" long range hunter. The kinda guy that just wants to make something bleed and doesnt know the meaning of the word "hunt".

Oh I know some of you guys know your business. Ive seen it done. I have friends in Montana that can consistantly pick off dogs at 500,600,700, yrds. One guy is a twice Camp Perry champ. But shooters like this are rare, have a lifetime of LR shooting behind them, and even most of them dont believe in shooting long on these magnificent animals.

A lot of things can go wrong on a long shot, and none of them good. Field conditions are'nt like on a range, there aint no flags, no bulldozed wind protected shooting range,no paced off yrdges without slopes, no stationary targets. I would bet that even with the "experts" there are just as many 1,000 yds deer that are cripped as are killed. We just never hear about the crips. And the ones that are cripped how many are pursued until they are in the bag ?

No there no need to comment. I know some of you guys are good, better then I will ever be. Not that my eyes will ever be what they were anyway. Ive made a few 350 yrd+ shots, but mostly Ive passed them up. I had a 400 yrd look at a black bear of a lifetime once and there was no way Id take such a shot, in such a wind, and risk cripping him.

Anyway, we dont need anymore laws restricting hunting. We have enough already. It does give me hope when I see so many guys who are against the LR shooting of game. In the final analysis we all have to figure out our own limits and hopefully have the discipline to stay within them...............10

Ray,

Well, I rarely post like this, but you raised the hair on the back of my neck with your "post".

Frankly that is a pretty smug characterization of probably most of the regular people who post in this forum.

Tell me, is this how you treat your perspective customers when they tell you they are confident in their shooting equipment and shooting ability ?

I have hunted out west quite a few times, my hunting buddy probably twice as much as I have. I think between us we have had only a few shots under 200 yards. Most of them between 250 - 350. And no, we wern't shooting, we were hunting, with some pretty good guides BTW. I've killed an elk at 450 yards, because that was as close as we could get. Question....what would you advise a client when you stalk up a mountainside, top over it and see a trophy 6x6 bull elk accross a canyon in a thick timber opening at 450 yards ? Here is a hint....your client is shooting a rifle combo that is very capable of cleanly taking an elk at that range, can go prone on a bipod for the shot, and who has told you that he has practiced at that range all summer long ?

Let me guess, you call him a "P" brain and tell him not to shoot ???? With an attitude like yours, I wouldn't book a groundhog hunt with your company.

Signed,

Tony

("P" brained Senior Systems Engineer, BAE Systems)

I apologize for my statements. No, I dont take them back, I meant everything I said. But I should have read the whole thread better, and realized its in a room for LR shooting. A thread, and/or a room, thats devoted to the technical aspects of LR shooting shouldnt be awash in "LR shooting morality" posts. It would be better posted in "Big Game".

LR shooting is a fascinateing game, tho its better practiced on paper then animals. I dont take back what I said, but I'll start saying it elsewhere.............10

10point,

Your statements were not the ones my response was aimed at. Hey, there is a limit to everything. Knowing what ones limits are is more important that a hard, fast rule. One persons limit might be a 250 yard shot. The guys up in Pa. have another limit which few of us can (or want to) match. Even though I may not agree with 700+ yard shots at game, someone that is practiced and has the equipment AND the confidence, will make that shot.

It was "Lord" Ray Atcheson's condescending post bestowed upon us poor, peasant hunters that gave me the heartburn.

I hope that is not how he treats his hunters, WTF ??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

10point,

Actually, truth be known, 163bc and I where trying to spank a few does on his property in West Va. yesterday.

The deer won !!!

We both passed up questionable shots at moving does at ranges well under 100 yards, trying not to wound any.

So I guess it is all about self discipline and knowing when it is right to pull the trigger, regardless of the range involved.

Tony.

Fellas I posted that original post right before I left the house and went goose hunting, at 0-dark-30 this am. I was in a hurry and didnt take the time to even notice the thread was in a "LR shooting" room. I thought it was just another "ethics of LR hunting" thread.

LR shooters should have the right to have their own room where they can discuss their art without a bunch of gonad busting of the ethics about it, and Rick is kind enough to provide it.

Just cause I dont like the long shooting of game I really didnt have any right to bust in like this. Like I said I just didnt look and see it was in a LR shooting room.

I have seen an awful lot of slob hunters that limit their slobbishness to 300 yrds or closer. If I had to guess I'd say 90% of the small elite "and its very small", who can make the shots your talking about, live west of the big river. Most of the Long Rangers Ive had the sad experience of seeing in action are flat-footers, like me.

Avergeing 10 to 20 trips to a 600- 1000 yrd range a year, and I dont care what kinda gear you have, isnt going to make it. Mastering such a discipline is a lifestyle move. You have to live it, eat it, sleep it.

I have known a few guys that can do it, and boy I admire them. LR shooting is a marvelous fascinateing sport, I really dig it. My buddy, the camp Perry champ, is something to see when hes out shooting dogs. He was born and bred in Montana.

Only the individual hunter can make the decision if they are shooting past their skill level. YRDGS dont tell the whole story. I'll get off my soapbox after saying, IMOHO, we have to many killers in our sport nowdays. To many fellas who want to kill,kill,kill, and dont care what they have to do, who they have to do it over, and what they have to cripple, to make something bleed. I just see a selfishness in hunting now that really takes a lot of the joy out of it for me, and its really apparent with some of these guys that take long shots they have no business trying.

Im not as old as Atkinson but I to remember a simpler time, a time when hunters were gentleman, when we didnt crawl over everything, and everyone, to make something die. When big dollars didnt run the industry, when fancy shooting gadgets werent takeing the "hunt" out of hunting, when everyone with a .300 weatherby wasnt shooting across canyons so "the next guy" wouldnt get "their" elk.

Huntings changed, and personaly I dont much like many of the changes. I aint gonna speak for Atkinson but I wouldnt be surprised if "this" isnt what got his hair up a bit. And not so much the science of LR shooting.

Anyway I'll get off my soapbox now. Im glad Rick gave you a room to discuss this grand sport. If you dont mind I'll stick around a bit and try to learn something should I ever get to a 1000 yrd range.

And good hunting to you..............10

I am glad for those of you that find great sport in this ultra long range shooting and more power to ya if you are that good of a shot. BUT...I think in general...this type of hunting is irresponsible at best...and plain dangerous at worst!
Let's see....1000 yards is .57 of a mile...so if you are on foot...that means if you kill your deer at that range you have to walk 1.14 miles just to find it....and drag it back. Seems like an awful lot of work for the thrill of one shot.

Just finished reading thru this section for the first time and I must say I agree with WW's last paragraph--how would we, as gun owners and avid shooters like it if every time we tried to use our board here, we had to wade through a clutter of anti-gunners. Personally, I have never taken a big game animal at any range over about 500 yards; but once, on a different board I mentioned taking a deer at 322 (measured) yards with a 10-inch barreled contender in .30-30 and another at 265 yards with a Ruger super blackhawk in .44mag. No one asked my skill lever with such arms, or my practice, or the weather or range conditions--but everyone saw fit to soundly trounce my judgment, my ethics, and my sportsmanship. (BTW both were one shot double lung kills.) Steve P.S.--I wouldn't mind watching one of these 1000+yard kills.

hey Don

all of you have the nerve to kick old bearbeater around and old Haggas around for head shots. Don go read that thread. I got kicked real hard but I never said what yardage I shoot at. My limit for deer is 400yds I practice alot farther but thats for varmits. I would take a shot at a varmit but not a deer at that range. Don if you take a shot at a deer at that range I put you in the ass shooter catagory. ( see head shot thread ) I would like to see that. All of you who got on Haggas and my case should hang your head.

Bearbeater

I like a Krag with a Belding & Mull bolt sleeve peepsight and 150 yards is long enough for me.

hey all

how about a 1000 yd head shot

Bearbeater

I've read most of the posts and i havent read any thing on safety or consideration of other hunters.at 1000 yrds what kind of fov do you have can you see the hunter in the tree stand 20 yrds from the deer thats hunting with a bow?how about the guy 100 yrds on the other side of the deer hiding behind the tree. are you 100% sure of your back stop when you miss?I think this should rank high up on the list before you pull the trigger.
and who desides what is hunting and what is not.I think it would be great to take a 4-wheeler hunting.take it out about 50 miles in the back country.set up camp.next morning go for a walk"hunting"a bag some game.atv do have some advantages over a horse.atv wont break its ankle.i know atv will break but i wont have to shoot it.some people just cant ride a hores or might have a disability they both have there own place in the hunting scene.if you want the next gen.of hunters to use the older ways of hunting then you beter get out there and teach them.

I happen to live in an area that would allow me 1000 yard shots; I would never try one. For me, using only iron sights, 200 yards is h*ll and gone through the country. The front blade or bead looks like a hub cap on my targets. Even with a 100 yard head shot the front bead/blade is a force to reckoned with. I can't imagine what a deer would look like at 1000 yards with the cross hairs on it. I would guess that pin point accuracy (3" group) would be difficult if the cross hairs were covering half the deer?

Steve95,

I am convinced most of the folks who bad mouth other hunters have about a year or less experince. Some may have copied that year twenty or thirty times, but it is still the same thing over and over again and again. They don't have a clue about what others can do. They do not fall in the catagory of people who have twenty or thirty years of experience.

DonKnows,
Well apparently Don doesn't know. I just happened on to this post and was shocked. I cannot believe that a 1000 yard shot on a deer or elk would even be considered. I don't care if you are G. David Tubb or can compete at that level, you don't have any business shooting at unwounded game at those yardages. In all reality there is no excuse for taking a shot at unwounded game at over 300 yards. If you can't close the distance to under 300 yards, then you are risking a lost animal. How many deer have you shot at extended distances have been pencil holed by a bullet that failed to expand due to low impact velocity, only to die in the night, lost to any but the scavengers.

Shooters (they are not hunters) who brag about long range shots on big game are taking those shot to satisfy some vain, selfish need. They apparently have no consideration for the game or providing every opportunity for a humane kill. Certainly hunters make bad shots and have to follow up at extended ranges on occasion. But, if a hunter has any shred of decency he or she will shorten the distance on the first shot to be more certain of a clean, humane kill.

I spent the last 22 years hunting in an area that didn't have anything taller than sage brush for a hundred miles and never saw the need to take a shot over 300 yards. Most kills were made under 100 yards. Imagine that, under 100 yards in wide open country. Probably just lucky!

Save your long range, look at me and what I did shots for the woodchucks, prairie dogs and paper targets and leave the big game alone until you develop some hunting skills. Mart

mart,

Yep, I'd agree with you.

I watched the video these folks promoted, and was not impressed. A bunch of dudes so close to the highway you could hear the cars going by. They puposely set up a location which supported their long range ideals.

They will deny it, but I think most of them would rather back up than take a clean shot.

Let the flames come forth!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am 12. My dad was on this website and I saw you all talking. But killing a deer at 1000 yards is a big deal! You don't gotta belittle him. Even I know that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> You may not aim as well but don't yall think he learned his lesson? He is most likely not going to do that again!

Do u play neopets? This is jack! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

hehehe my dad found out g2g to skool

Quote

I just happened on to this post and was shocked. I cannot believe that a 1000 yard shot on a deer or elk would even be considered.

Well, this IS a long range hunting board I suppose, and I've been staying off of it, or even looking at it much on account of I fall into the camp of those who find the term "long range hunting" to be an oxymoron.

What moved me to post here was Mart's quote. Like Mart I was blown away about six months back when I stumbled on this whole concept, and my reaction was exactly the same of Mart's. I got into a long and ill-considered thread about it on the old Shooterstalk. I just couldn't believe that guys would sit up on a hillside with high powered gear and shoot at deer over in the next county and take themselves seriously.

I'm as impressed and fascinated as the next guy with the fine art of ballistics and long-range precision shooting, I just dunno that such applied against live targets qualifies as "hunting".

Likewise I gotta say I find photos of folks with portable benchrests and the like shooting at way distant game to be tragicomic. Surely if I was an anti-hunter I could get serious mileage out of showing such pics to the previously neutral public.

Case in point, Dan Lilja's website on this topic and his 1100 yard benchrested antelope story (and yes I know Mr Lilja produces excellent products and is very serious about his art)

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longrange_shooting/shooting_hunting.htm

I reckon this is one of them issues where ya either got a problem with it or ya ain't, sorta like Gay marriage or something. Me, I dunno that a situation where the SHOT becomes the challenge is a good idea (as opposed to the oft-quoted bowhunting example where getting in position for the shot is the challenge).

And yeah, I know that there are a million shades of gray and "what-ifs" (like just how long is "long"? and different skill levels yada yada yada) but like most folks and with many moral issues, my opinion on this is visceral and not likely to be swayed by arguments.

On the other hand, this IS a "long-range hunting" board, those long-range guys ain't actually breaking any laws, nor are they getting on the various and sundry "short-to-regular-range" boards and pontificating.

Birdwatcher

Sorry about my son's interjection above (he did kill a whitetail this weekend, but it was at about 100 yards.) I can appreciate the skills necessary to shoot 600 and 1000 yard targets, but those are precision shooting skills--not woodscraft, not stalking, not knowledge of your game, heck, not even being quiet--in short, not hunting. The ethical problem of long range hunting is not just that it robs the sport of all its connection to our past, but the undeniable fact that with the long bullet times of flight required, nobody knows when he lets fly whether he's made a killing shot or a gut shot or just shot off a leg. A deer standing still when the trigger is pulled can take several steps before the bullet gets there (causing a miss) or just one step and move your perfect shot into his guts. The fact you're a long hike away makes it unlikely you'll be able to recover the now wounded animal. And this risk is for what? Bragging rights?

Steve_NO

Your statement (in bold).

"I can appreciate the skills necessary to shoot 600 and 1000 yard targets, but those are precision shooting skills--not woodscraft, not stalking, not knowledge of your game, heck, not even being quiet--in short, not hunting."

Precision shooting skills and "hunting" skill are not mutually exclusive. As one example, knowledge of the game as you state is a requirement for responsible long range hunting...how else does one know the likelyhood of an animal taking a step and therefor being a non-shot situation at long range. Many long range hunters are very familiar with normal animal characteristics and habits. The fact that we're a long way away quite often helps in the "wounded game" scenario. Bear in mind that we all wound animals, the time they live after being wounded is the actual difficulty... Some die immediately after being "wounded" and other live a longer period of time... hunters "wound them to death" in most cases. Being a long way away from the animal eliminates/reduces the "danger" response of most of the animals...they sense no danger... there's no-one nearby and the shot is from a great(er) distance. Shoot them and they often go about their business without significant change and die on their feet or lay down to "take a nap cuz I'm tired all of a sudden" and die.

There are always risks, knowledge and experience reduce the risk(s).

I personally do not hunt at distances over 650 yards but I shoot much further for varmints and practice. I know many folks that hunt at the 1000 yard distances stated here. These responsible folks are not a detriment to hunting once understood.

Many hunt differently, commanding views are the norm, East Coast U.S. is home to many of these folks and if you've ever been over here, there are LOTS of roads nearby... I've archery hunted many times in woodlots small enough and houses close enough that I could watch television while hunting (East Coast suburban hunting). When I'm hunting in the wide open west or northern Canada I hunt as they hunt... I have no problem in that I can't spit to the nearest road. Each area has it's "normal" sphere, learning and accepting this as "area/situation normal" would be a good thing.

I'm not to familiar with the "connection to our past" and how this relates to excluding long range hunting, seems the natural progression.... bare hands, rock, stick, spear, bow and arrow, smoothbore musket, rifles barrels and roundball, conical minnie ball, self contained black power cartridge, ladder sights, telescopic sights. Appears that this is an effort to increase the distance in which a "hunter" can effectively kill the quarry. Why stop at an/some arbitrary distance...who picks the distance... Alley Oop, Daniel Boone, Theodore Roosevelt, Roy Weatherby???

Steve NO, a couple of points.

1) my .338 bullet takes 1.4 seconds to travel 1000 yards. Just how many of these several steps is this deer gonna take?

2) I've seen how elk react to someone talking a little loud from 1400 yards away.

3) If these guys have poor woodsmanship, how do they know where to set up for their shot?

4) My leupold Dot substends 6.4" at 1000 yards with scope on 10X. Looks cool on an elk at that distance <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I thought this subject was to promote Long Range Hunting, hence the tittle. It's fun to watch the ex-spurts berate something when they don't have a clue about what their talking about.

I admire those that shoot targets at 1000 yards.
I admire snipers who can take out an enemy at that distance.
However, if you miss the target well shucks too bad.
If you only gut shoot the hostile or hit the guy standing besides him, mission accomplished.

However one of the commandments of hunting should be that
"thou shall kill cleanly". Even with range finders and windflags it is already tough enough shooting targets @ 800-1000 meters.
Trying that on an noble big game animal is not my idea of fairness. An elk/deer is NOT an enemy or terrorist deserving a gut shot or dismemberment. How long range hunters think they can control wind drift without range flags every 100 yards or so, to be so sure of a 1000 yard shot ??????????
When you fire and the animal runs off, do you guys travel the 1000 meters trying to find where you may have hit him??
How are you going to find the exact spot where you may have hit him trying to find that tiny blood spot or just a few hairs? I find it at times already tough at 200 yards.
Yes, I can imagine the euphoria pulling a shot like that of.
However in my books the risks of wounding are way too high.

And yes a big game animal does cover a number of feet when travelling at slow pace in 1.4 seconds as a poster pointed out that was the time it took his bullet to travel 1000 yards.

Shrike, again your trying to impose your experiences on long range hunters. If someone would do the research on the subject you would have the answers to your questons.

They DO NOT take or advocate shots at moving game. Think about it, the bullet is traveling in excess of the speed of sound. A deer grazing will not be alarmed by the rifle shot (bullet gets there first).

If you learn about their use of sighter shots, you will understand the methodoligy of doping the wind.

These guys are professionals with their game. If its windy, or animals on the move, they pass on the shot and wait for a better opportunity. I don't see long range hunters as clowns road hunting, taking 400 yards shots over the hood of a pickup truck, when having never shot out past 50 yards their entire lives.

Dave, I didn't mean to imply (as I see I did) that shooting skill is not part of hunting. Thank you for pointing that out.
What I don't see in your post (other than a rationalization that all hunters wound animals, so whats the big deal) is a response to the fact that no matter how good a shot you are, or how powerful and high-tech your equipment is, you're launching a projectile with a second or two of flight time, and you have no idea whether your animal is going to move in that time period--or for that matter whether another animal is going to move in front of your bullet--maybe one you haven't even seen, maybe one you don't have a tag for. Even loafing along at a 5 mph walk, a deer goes 14 feet in 2 seconds. Even if he's feeding when you shoot, he's got plenty of time to raise his head and move two feet, just far enough to put your perfect shot in his gut. I don't think you can just ignore that fact and say, well, all shots are wounds, some just kill faster than others.
And somehow I don't think Boone, Roosevelt, or even Roy Weatherby would see hauling the benchrest out of the back of the truck and lobbing rounds at an elk two ridges over to be the logical extension of their hunting efforts. If mortars were legal, would that be the next step?

Quote

I thought this subject was to promote Long Range Hunting, hence the title. It's fun to watch the ex-spurts berate something when they don't have a clue about what their talking about.

Agreed, this is a long range hunting board, but I do take exception to the second statement and the implication that everyone would approve if they only knew. The fact is anyone can understand what it takes to make a long-range shot (a good rifle, a good load, and a lot of practice). Lilja claims four inches at 1,000 yards under ideal conditions and I have no reason to doubt him.

Quote

If you learn about their use of sighter shots, you will understand the methodology of doping the wind.

Somehow I find this to be a less than a telling argument <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher, It's not approval I'm looking for. If you read some of the statements and realized that they were made by someone less informed, kinda gets under your skin after awhile. If were gonna argue the basics, lets have all the data. As far as the ethics are concerned, I don't queston your beliefs, nor am trying to change your opinion. As someone else stated, your either for em or totaly against them, theres no middle ground.

If were gonna discuss long range hunting lets stick to the facts. A debate of the process and procedures they employ is fine.

Years ago had an interesting situation occur while I was in the military. We were trying to accomplish something which some senior officers were totaly against. They thought they had just reasons, and some of their concerns were indeed valid. Scheduled a meeting with all the base higher command, base commander, wing commander, OPS commander, wing saftey, and a few others. The DCM was on "our side". We're all sitting around this table, the DCM walks in, and makes the statement that we're not going to discuss why we can't accomplish what we're trying to do, we're there to figure out how to make it happen! There was no doubt about the outcome of the metting. It was smooth sailing from that point on.

Lets try to help someone accomplish their goal. Let them make the judgement if this type of hunting is "ethical" in their eyes.

As for the wind, they dial in short of their intended target, take a sighter shot using a spotter, and confirm their wind correction.

Steve_No

Rationalizing the "all hunters wound animals" was not what I was after... What I was saying it that we shoot animals and they die, some quickly and others not so quickly. Sometimes at long(er) ranges they don't even know they've been "killed" for a few long seconds....The same shot at close range would/might well send the animal scampering for cover and result in a "wounded" critter thus seemingly requiring a follow-up shot. It's a bit of a different ball game at long(er) ranges.

Again... I do not hunt game animals at distances beyond 650 yards... Just want to make that clear. I do however know about shooting them further.

You are ignoring several statements or trying to make things un-necessarily difficult. Most/Many of us have many hours experience watching and studying the animals we shoot. Remember that we use good optics and watch large areas of land. We see many deer/whatever and have hours to watch and study them in their natural state...not in the close range "danger close by" mode. They telegraph their intentions just as most other critters, if they're jumpy and nervous, it's easily seen. When they calmly feed there's a pattern. The critters are individuals and each is a bit different in their timing and demeanor but they're not complete mysteries. They're grazers and browsers and often stand for long minutes eating, looking around seemingly enjoying themselves, unhurried. Shooting at walking, trotting, running deer is generally not done.

1 mile per hour = 1.44 feet per second. 5 mph = 14.4 feet in 2 seconds... you're correct and I'm impressed as usually these type responses are made by folks that don't know how to calculate this type of thing... often they just "fling" a number in for effect. Thanks for not doing so.

Not all long range hunters use benches (the picture earlier in this thread of a bench setup is one method), neither do all long range hunters fire "spotter rounds". There are various techniques and methods, some are not unlike military sniper and this is a tried and true method but the limitations are there must be a first round kill shot... A second shot is anticipated but never thought of as the norm so the conditions must be correct for the shooter.

Long range in NOT the only method used by "Long Range" hunters, it's a tool and used as needed/desired.

Dismissing Long Range Hunters as irresponsible is going off a little early. We generally know our own limitations and the accuracy and precision of our equipment and personal marksmanship skills. Shooting outside the envelope is generally not done and there is an understanding (personal limitation) of the maximum distance and greatest normal error factor. Quickly, if I have a .5 MOA precision rifle and a 1 MOA field accuracy with that rifle I can add a "what if" buffer of 1 MOA and feel very confident that I can cleanly hit anything up to 2 MOA. Kill Zone size is not a hard fast size, on a large deer 12 inches is what I consider (I will not debate this issue) the kill zone. I know that this 12 inches equals 2 MOA at 600 yards and I'm confident that the 1 MOA accuracy and 1 MOA buffer is sufficient for me to kill that deer at 600 yards when I choose to shoot based on my acceptable conditions. Often the reply is... what about movement, wind, etc, etc... These and other things are considered before the shot and are individual limitations, I elect when to shoot, not the critter or some other hunter. We are still in complete control of the situation as far the decision to shoot or not. The animal can move and the wind can gust and a bird can fly into the path of the projectile (seen it happen on a range) but the likelihood of these things/event (minus that bird thing) can be

minimized though experience. Experience most often gained at closer ranges... we don't automatically start at 650 or 1000 or 1500 yards... we learn and experience our way out to our personal limit(s) through mentorship, range time and hunting.

I have no problem with anyone that won't or can't accept hunting as it's done by some folks, long range in this case. But a sound background and/or general understanding of the concepts help to eliminate some of the "myths" that abound. We're not much different than any other group of hunters, we use different techniques sometimes but we're not any less knowledgeable or responsible as a whole than any other group of knowledgeable and responsible hunters...

Too long already... sorry. We can chat again later.

(edited for formatting)

AJ... Preach? Naah I thought I WAS stating facts, it IS relevant that a great many react upon learning of the concept with stunned disbelief (as I did), and images of hunting off of a bench rest WOULD look ludicrous to the general public. I posted in response to someone who's reaction was exactly like my own a few months back, nothing more.

And then I replied to the incorrect implication that regular folks just couldn't understand (a common but fallacious pro-LR argument).

'Twas I who suggested there ain't no middle ground here, its visceral, either ya get it or ya don't.

I don't mind shutting TFU, most times such is only polite after all. I gotta tell you though, relating the challenge of LR killing of game to having a "can-do" attitude to overcoming problems only reinforces the notion that the challenge of LR lies mostly in the skill and equipment required to make the shot itself.

Ya I know a certain amount of "fieldcraft" is inolved in setting up over a place where game is likely to appear in the open and not move much, but certainly not more so than getting within a much lesser range.

I will readily concede that the wind has always seemed to me to be an exceedingly fickle entity, especially over long range and on the scale of a few mph, even given a short interval between a spotter shot and a serious shot. Especially given the fact a livng creature one has a responsibility to kill cleanly lies at the other end of all those yards. But perhaps I am uninformed.

With that, unless specifically addressed, I will gracefully "STFU'

Birdwatcher

BirdWtcher,

Quote

Especially given the fact a livng creature one has a responsibility to kill cleanly lies at the other end of all those yards.

On what is thise statement based?

Dave, I never used the word "irresponsible" or talked about acceptance of other people's methods of killing animals. In fact I said, more or less, whatever blows your skirt up is fine for you. What I don't accept is the "we're experts and you peons just don't get it" attitude which sort of pervades the arguments by the over-the-horizon boys when the rather obvious ethical problems with their method are pointed out. Not to get into a "mine is bigger than yours" exchange, but I started shooting service rifle matches which require firing at 600 yards with iron sights back when Nixon was president, so I really don't need an explanation of the ins and outs of shooting a far piece out there. I'll accept that you and some others study your animals patiently, and that you really can predict, to a certainty which makes you comfortable, what a wild animal is going to do in the next two seconds. I also understand your point that you don't shoot big game over 650 yards and are really just making the case for others. But if you shoot at that range, you know how hard it is to dope the wind at nearly twice that range. And I suppose since this neck of the forum is for LR shooters, those of us who don't subscribe to the premises of LR shooting should just STFU and leave you to talk among yourselves. But I've enjoyed talking with you. Regards, Steve

Birdwatcher, Steve, My comments were not aimed at you specifically, and with out a doubt were heavy handed. My intention is that with your experiences we can discuss the logistics of long range hunting. As in Steve's case, he has experience with shooting at long ranges under less than perfect conditions (match conditions). So we have an understanding that it takes a talented individual to pursue this style of hunting. Might not be your or my cup of tea, but don't see a reason to crash their party.

Ringman... the question of long range hunting comes down to two issues..

1) The possibiility of making quick-killing shots on game at extreme ranges. Opinions differ, even among experienced long range riflemen.

2) The other is the far more nebulous question of class, or ethics or whatever you want to call it. All would agree that getting closer before shooting places a proportionately greater emphasis on stealth, all would also agree that shooting from farther away requires proportionately less stealth and also makes the shot inherently more difficult (all else being equal). Hunting the way I understand it places an emphasis on the stalk, such that the shot should ideally be a slam dunk, among the least challenging parts of the experience.

Note here I did not say anywhere "this should be illegal", we pro-gun types have enough enemies already. But I think you would concede it would be a public relations disaster if your local fish and game posted pictures of guys with bench rests plugging elk at 1,000 yards.

A second way of interpreting your question would be do I think that animals have "rights". No, but we as sentinent beings endowed with reason and judgement by our Creator do have a responsibility to act with class. Would I sit up on a hillside and shoot a mule deer 1,000 yards away even given I had the rifle, the ammo and the practice? (as well as a convenient range flag previously set out in the meadow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Nope. To quote a Brit "that just wouldn't be cricket old boy, now would it".

Shutting the heck up again

Birdwatcher

Steve_NO

Sorry if I came across in a portion of my earlier post as harsh... not my intent.

The "irresponsible" portion was more or less directed at readers in general and not directly toward anything you directly stated (as I recall).

I also shot High Power for a while while stationed at Camp Pendleton, CA. Had some fine folks to shoot with and learn from. I stopped competing for many years as the Navy moved me around a lot but in the late 1990's I was asked to compete for a few "new" matches. I threw these few items onto the internet as a bit of a validity offering.

http://www.the-king-family.com/DaveMarksmanship.html

As a general statement.

From our viewpoint (Long Range Hunting) we are nearly always immediately classified as "irresponsible" "poke and hope" "lead flinging" "hail mary" types... This seems to be the case as many hunters know and have seen folks "let one fly" at a critter in a desperate attempt to kill far beyond their capability and understanding. We unjustly suffer from this stereotype and often any attempt to turn aside this view is rebuffed as "some psychological problem with you guys" as a "real hunter" would never do that.

Steve_No and others have experience at NRA High Power rifle competitions, and so do many Long Range Hunters (myself included). Just as some folks simply can't believe a shooter using "iron" sights can hit a bullseye at 600 or 1000 yards with an M1 Garand/M14/M16/bolt rifle others won't believe another group of folks can reliably kill animals at those same/similar (and further) distances. Once actually show the tools, techniques and having grasped the basic concepts some of these same non-believers often have a change of heart.

I know about the wind, it's a constant crutch and/or stumbling block set in our paths, used as either a reason LRH can't be done or as a limiter for actual LRHunters.

I'm sorry there are folks that can't and won't accept that there is a group of responsible hunters shooting game animals further than the general hunting populace but I see how this stereotype is formed. Many of the true LRHunters spend hours trying to overcome this stumbling block and many folks come to understand and believe, others witness one "long range" event by someone with "no business shooting at a critter that far away" and never get beyond that.

All-in-all we're likeable, common folks with a quirk about marksmanship. We put forth a bit more practice and critter observation than many but not all and have found a niche.

(edited for spelling)

Birdwatcher, you forgot my second requirement. Without a 1/2" bright red diamond to aim at, I can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ever try to velcro one of theese puppies to the side of an elk while he's sleepin!!!!

Merry Christmas to All!!!!

Al

DaveKing wrote:

"I know many folks that hunt at the 1000 yard distances stated here. These responsible folks are not a detriment to hunting once understood."

I've been following this thread for a while, and just can't help but jump in now. How can you call this hunting? Any fool can approach to within 1000 yards of even the warriest of critters. It takes an even bigger fool to launch a bullet at them for the sake of bragging rights. 1000 yard "hunting" is simply an egotistical practice, strictly for bragging rights. If you care to argue, show me how it is more effective? There is less bullet energy, GREATLY increased chance of wounding the animal (ie moving) no matter how much you have "studied" its movement. Furthermore, it doesn't get any lamer than shooting a "sighter" shot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Come on, while I admire the art of 1000 yard shooting, keep it to paper targets and steel gongs. Only an irresponsible moron would deny that it is unethical.

280_ACKLEY

In the post I made just after the one you reference here

""I know many folks that hunt at the 1000 yard distances stated here. These responsible folks are not a detriment to hunting once understood.""

is the following statement... I believe it applies in your case.

"I'm sorry there are folks that can't and won't accept that there is a group of responsible hunters shooting game animals further than the general hunting populace but I see how this stereotype is formed. Many of the true LRHunters spend hours trying to overcome this stumbling block and many folks come to understand and believe, others witness one "long range" event by someone with "no business shooting at a critter that far away" and never get beyond that. "

Your personal ethical handicap is of little consequence to me and many others, but I will not have your set inflicted upon me. Hunt whatever way you wish.

I'm outta here, guys. However you hunt, Merry Christmas and good hunting in the New Year. (And Go Tigers)

Amazing, people don't have any issues whacking deer under 200 yards with a high powered rifle (can we say overkill kiddies) gonna gripe about long range hunting! Whats the difference??? The critter is DEAD and in my freezer. Did he die any better being shot from short range than long range? Come take a walk with me in the woods some time. We'll find evidence of deer mortally wounded that were shot by "short range hunters" and never recovered. Care to watch as coyoties run down a deer that had a leg shot off, again not being followed up by a "short range hunter".

Exactly what is your definition of moron?

BirdWatcher,

Quote

2) The other is the far more nebulous question of class, or ethics or whatever you want to call it.

The idea that one has more class if he is sneeky is a nonsequatar. It conveys no information.

Quote

All would agree that getting closer before shooting places a proportionately greater emphasis on stealth, all would also agree that shooting from farther away requires proportionately less stealth and also makes the shot inherently more difficult (all else being equal). Hunting the way I understand it places an emphasis on the stalk, such that the shot should ideally be a slam dunk, among the least challenging parts of the experience.

I don't think you understand the LRH. He is convinced his shot is a, what did you call it? "...a slam dunk.

Quote

But I think you would concede it would be a public relations disaster if your local fish and game posted pictures of guys with bench rests plugging elk at 1,000 yards.

I don't agree at all with this statement. The general public doesn't have a clue what hunters do whether they are sneeky Petes or Carloses.

Quote

A second way of interpreting your question would be do I think that animals have "rights". No, but we as sentinent beings endowed with reason and judgement by our Creator do have a responsibility to act with class. Would I sit up on a hillside and shoot a mule deer 1,000 yards away even given I had the rifle, the ammo and the practice? (as well as a convenient range flag previously set out in the meadow

We now know if it is not your way it is not classy. And I supose we should all use .30-06 with factory 180 grainers.

And a Merry Christmas to all..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ringman... Seriously, I think you're reaching here.

Of course I UNDERSTAND ("sigh!") the LR hunter believes he can make the shot, other experienced LR shooters have debated whether such is always true enough under field conditions, even given the LR hunter refrains from shooting until he's "sure". How reliable that "sureness" can realistically be (even given Mr Lija's 4"@1,000 yard rifle) is the gist.

That is the substantiative part of the LR debate subject to actual testing, data etc etc, although I am aware of no impartial fields trials, now THAT would be an interesting magazine article. Or how about actual LR field events in competition? Surely military snipers or such must hold such events?

"Class" or 'ethics" is of NECESSITY nebulous, and not a conclusion based on gathered information. However, such judgement calls govern most ALL of our actions. To many, knocking over an unsuspecting antelope at 1,100 yards ain't sport or fair chase. The issue with these folks ain't just CAN it be done, but can it be done while callling it "hunting".

To which the tired response is "Ya but a deer shot by a bowhunter don't know he's there either", implying that there is no difference between being within 50 or 800 yards of game. This is patently not true.

Agreed that the general public doesn't know diddly about firearms or hunting in general. But if you seriously think that images of bench-rested deer taken at extreme range wouldn't leave a powerful negative impression, then you and I must be living on different planets.

Seems like ALL LR range boards are plagued with never-ending arguments like this, far more than other hunting boards, the flack on LR boards coming not from anti-hunters, but from OTHER hunters. This being because folks in general DO percieve these activities differently, even hunters.

Quote

We now know if it is not your way it is not classy. And I supose we should all use .30-06 with factory 180 grainers.

What??? I don't even play cricket <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Nor do I have a .30-06 (.308 rocks). Anyway, my "Outdoor Life" childhood hero Jack O'Connor was convinced that .270 was enough, prob'ly he wasn't thinking of 1,000 yards though.

Maybe "class" or the lack thereof is like pornography, hard to define but you know it when you see it. And ya, I would still pass on that 1,000 yard mule deer, even if it was a slam-dunk.

All of this has been rehashed endlessly on various and sundry LR boards. So, once again, here I go shutting the heck up.

...and to all a good night <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

Is He Hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his bow and heads out, planning to be back in a couple of hours. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his bow and a back pack and heads out, planning to spend the whole day. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his bow and a back pack and heads out, planning to spend the night on the far ridge. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and heads out, planning to be back in a couple of hours. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and hauls out a back pack. He plans to spend the whole day out in the woods. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and hauls out his back pack. He plans to spend the night on the far ridge. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and hauls out some binocs. He sits down at the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 300 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He carefully gets his rifle and attaches a bipod. Then he gets some binocs. He sits down at the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 500 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He gets out a portable bench rest and sets it up. He carefully gets his rifle out and some huge binocs and a spotting scope. He sits down near the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 700 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He gets out a portable bench rest and sets it up. He carefully gets his rifle out and some huge binocs and a spotting scope. He sits down at the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 1000 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

Quote

wow lots of good reading here, but if wind speed doubles doesn't drift quadruple?

If wind speed doubles, drift doubles.

Ringman, the hang-up seems to be the bench. I'ts fine to climb up into an elevated stand, rest your rifle on the window ledge and pick off deer out to 300 yards. But to shoot deer past 300 using a bypod or a backpack and sand sock, well thats unethical.

Birdwatcher, sniper web sites have alot of good info on how to dope wind using trees, leaves, grass. I'm not a sniper wanna-be, but find their training usefull for hunting at extended ranges. Also some interesting stuff available on their shooting matches. Few years ago I didn't think much about shooting out past 100 yards. In the areas I hunt 75 yards was a long shot. A .44 mag loaded with 210g JHP's was my gun of choice for white tail hunting. Got asked to go on a trip elk hunting in CO. I joined a gun club with a 300 yard range to prepair for the trip. First time out west opened my eyes to shooting long distances!

Hey 300

I agree on the overkill part one of my pet peevs is the Tim Allen shooters ( More power ) Big is better right? WRONG!!
I got caught up in that when I was a kid and got out of that fast real fast. I know my range and my limits and do very well in those limits.

Bearbeater

[quote]After shooting at Williamsport (1022 yards) I can now see how killing a deer at 1000 yards really wouldn't be that difficult. All 10 of my shots whould of killed a deer. being colder during our deer season and not having to shoot 10 shots as fast as one can would make a huge difference in accuracy.

 

 I am going to make some alterations to my existing 300 win mag which will make it easier to kill deer to 1000 yards. As of now my self imposed limit is 650 yards. I can see how that range could be doubled.

 

 Have a good one all,

 

 Don [Linked Image]

[/quote

Shooting deer at 1000 yards takes a LOT of shooting skills.

.

Shooting deer at 1000 yards takes NO hunting skills.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bearbeater, my 6 1/2" 629 does fine, nice and light, deer don't go very far.

Mauser96, if they don't have any hunting skills, then how do they know where to set up?

AJ... in fairness, your bench-rest hang-up comments were probably better directed at me, Ringman has been defending that sort of thing. Easy to get turned around on these threads I know. And yes, personally I would feel just plain silly sitting out on a hillside next to my truck with a banchrest during hunting season, and siller too that I put in all that time and effort to perform such a graceless act. And I would wanna crawl under a rock if members of the general public saw me on account of the image I was putting out.

But that I've said already. Where one stands on this stalk vs challenge-in-the-shot debate again comes down to gut reaction, the best parallel being various moral issues. Although unlike morality, this shooting debate ain't a good vs. evil thing. We can talk all we want but it comes down to everyone's own gut reaction. After all, from a scientific standpoint it doesn't matter HOW ya kill 'em long as it's quick (how about Claymore antipersonnel mines, detonated from that same distant hillside? Think of the fieldcraft involved!).

Other than that I have the same fascination with long-range accuracy as most everyone else here. On that topic, the January/Febuary issue of Petersen's "RifleShooter" magazine has an article "1,000 yard shooting on a budget" which might be of interest to some folks here. Of course, prob'ly like most technical articles any more, ya can likely learn more on boards like this in two days than with a whole year of magazines.

I already shut the heck up up on this topic, I was just summoned forth by the mention of my handle <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher, the bench comment was made in jest. Just tryin to get into someones mind to see why they find shooting deer at long ranges to be so terrible. Makes me wonder if its from a bad experience, or that if I can't do it how the heck can someone else. Sure, shooting long ranges are demanding, takes a lot of practice. Just because I don't happen to shoot at Camp Perry doesn't mean I'm a poor shot. (PPC matches are my cup of tea). And yes, I understand the "degree of difficulty" increases with the distance, and not at a linear rate. 1000yards is not 10X in relation to 100yards.

Got to get me a copy of that mag. You are correct though, there's tons of good info from people with extensive experiences hanging out here. Just gotto know which rock to sit on and listen!

Don't leave the campfire just yet, kinda think with a little stoken the fire's about to get nice and warm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AJ300Mag

Quote
"And yes, I understand the "degree of difficulty" increases with the distance, and not at a linear rate. 1000yards is not 10X in relation to 100yards."

You're correct, not a linear progression at all.

We've discussed this many times over on Long Range Hunting, it comes up often.

Without adding any environmentals into the situation I liken the difficulty to the "inverse squares" law.

Simple example:
http://www.lbl.gov/abc/experiments/Experiment1.html

As the distance doubles the area quadruples... Shooting all rounds into a 1" square at 100 yards seems simple enough but try shooting into a 1" square at 200 yards and it's now 4 times as difficult. To go from 100 yards to 1000 yards is about 100 times more difficult given the shooter is trying to "hit" a given spot of the same size in both cases.

Dave, I hang out at LRH. Vast amounts of knowledge in their neck of the woods! Thats where I got some ideas for building my .338 and .300 ultras. Though the .338 doesn't have a "Daryl Barrel" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I look at long range hunting as I do bear hunting. In MI they either bait, or run bear with dogs. Not a lot of people care for a pack of hounds running across their private property, even tried to pass a law to ban dogs. I don't see the challenge of shooting a tree'd bear, don't care to participate. Smart enough to know its the chase (watching the dogs work) that counts. Heck yes I voted against the law!!!!

Al

AJ... "...I don't see the challenge of shooting a tree'd bear, don't care to participate..."

Ahh, now THERE"S the gist, if one shoots LR game because the SHOT is the challenge (and what other reason is there?), then I personally have a problem with that.

Along the same lines, as you alluded to in your earlier post, the shooting of fenced deer over bait (permanent automated timed feeders no less!) from an elevated wooden blind is normal here in Texas, in fact the line of "Sendero" rifles was created with exactly these situations in mind. Not really my cup of tea, but if they moved that feeder out to 1,000 yards just to add "challenge" then I might have a problem with it.

"...Think of the tracking skills these guys have, to be able to zero in on the spot of the hit and trail the critter if it runs off. No easy task if you don't have snow for a background...."

Um... the necessity of knowing the exact point of ground where you hit the animal so you can track it after you hit it ain't exactly a ringing endorsement of LR hunting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"...or that if [they] can't do it how the heck can someone else..."

AJ, not everyone who objects to the LR shooting of game just fell off of the turnip truck. Developing sufficient ability to hit a deer in the vitals at 1,000 yards is not in the same league as playing the violin, playing in the NBA, or actually winning at Camp Perry. The principles are easily understood and most competent riflemen could do it as well as most here if they bought the set-up and put in the time.

Along the same lines, I am in my late forties, and have been doing paid field work (birds mostly) on and off for many hundreds of hours over more than 25 years. (so generally speaking when I go afield I don't have a clueless look and the store tags still hanging off of my outdoor gear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). Much of this data collection has involved estimating ambient conditions, including wind speed (although usually not to within the exacting 1 mph degree of error necessary for consistent long range shooting).

The point being that wind estimation in the field ain't rocket science beyond the "understanding" of us normal types either, just practice. Dust, grass, leaves and branches all move in the wind in a fairly predictable manner. Calling the wind where you're at can be tough enough, calling it at 1,000 yards through that wavering two dimensional image of a 20x (or more) spotting scope is even harder. Even assuming the wind is gonna hold true from moment to moment.

Again, surely there must be field-condition target competitions between military snipers and the like, how consistently do they hit and why aren't those results posted around here somewhere?

Earlier you made a very good point about contributing something useful or getting the heck out of Dodge, I agree. Heck, I've been posting ad-nauseum over on the other boards, I'll stay off of this one unless someone besides me writes "Birdwatcher" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher, guess the word "challenge" was improperly used. I've nicked unseen branches with both bow and gun, completly missing my quarry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You do see my point though. Different ares of the country employ tactics for hunting that others find foreign to what is used in their area. Doesn't make it bad or wrong. They're all "hunting" and using the skills they have learned to be successful hunters. Should have seen the fight in MI when we were trying to legalize hunting deer from an elevated stand with firearms. Texas had done it for years, along with other states. Guess we're not as smart as sothern folks when it comes to hunting out of trees. Even had a doctor shoot himself (fatal) while hoisting a shotgun up a tree, before it was made legal.

Don't know about you, but I've taken both shoulders out of whitetails and had em run for over 100yards, with their brisket firmly planted on the ground. In a cedar swamp they're out of sight at that distance. Takes a little tracking to find em. Even seen deer shot on TV that have traveled some distance after a fatal shot. Never said long range is always a bang~flop proposition.

I'll try and find some match results that I can link you to. Not sure if they post it from the snipers challenge on the net or not.

Never said that anyone here was clueless. Just trying to slip some info in for someone that might be new to give them an idea of where to find more information, hence the logic behind these forums.

Not trying to be condencending, just playing the devils advocate to entice other people's point of view when concerning gear, tactics.

Al

Birdwatcher, check here. Might be able to give you some idea of what your looking for. Check out "courses".

http://www.badlandstactical.net/

Something else you might find interesting,

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/snipersustainment/Badlands02.html

Snipers Paradise shows the results for the Snipers Challenge (held in Texas) but just gives the names of the winners, not the score or course of fire.

Al

Birdwatcher you've done alright stating your views on this topic. I've been following it along, pretty much said what I had to say in my post towards the bottom of the third page. You've hung in there, I commend you on that. Like I said in my post, size would play a big part. The pictures I've seen of their deer are kinda small compared to these around here. There is no denying their skill, but these big boys around here will run a long ways with a well placed shot and to shoot them at a 1000yds. would be a folly. Something not much bigger than a goat would drop or not go far. We don't have any goats running loose though. Around here we don't get 3 or 4 guys together to watch one guy shoot either. That's another aspect of it that doesn't interest me at all. Hell, when I go deer hunting I go to shoot, not sit and spot or stand back and watch. I guess if that's what trips someones trigger more power to them. Windage at that range is another difference in my area and theirs. Here we get good wind seems like most of the time, if they wait for the perfect conditions to take those shots, they'd probably make it through the season without ever having fired a shot around here. I personally would get in closer and get my deer, than fight these windy conditions and not fill a $35 buck tag. As for shot placement I've heard them say they'll sit and watch one long enough to know when it's not gonna move, before they take the shot. These around here I guess I'm just not smart enough to figure out when they'll "not" move. Seems as though they are always moving every few moments. So I'd be wasting my time on a 1000yd. shot there too. But that is just something I've noticed for myself. I have also noticed we all have bad days, but a bad day at the range is more forgiving than a bad day in the field. Some won't admit it though, I will guarantee that any person that has a bad day at the range, will see a bad day in the field. As one individual has said "so&so shot a very respectable 20in. group with his factory Win M70 in 270wsm", that is just fine and dandy on paper at 1000yds., but it has no place in the field. I hope that individual doesn't hunt long range using that rifle, I wouldn't think so anyway. Birdwatcher with that I think I'll close cause I think both sides are beating a dead horse on this matter. Good luck

BirdWatcher

Quote

Again, surely there must be field-condition target competitions between military snipers and the like, how consistently do they hit and why aren't those results posted around here somewhere?

Just a bit on what I know and understand about "sniper" competitions.

Like others I've tried to find "field fire" scores from military and non-military specific sniper competitions and have little luck. Winner announcements and such but no scores of any consequence. There are a few posted from the Candian Forces Small Arms Championships (CFSAC) where they're titled "Precision Rifle" for 2003 and perhaps 2002 but unless you're familiar with the target(s) they're of little value. The target used at CFSAC is the "Hun" in various forms.

Sniper competitions are generally not just about shooting, there's a good deal more, field craft/stalk, target/object identification, Keep In Memory System (KIMS), stress fire, precision fire (hostage situation), movers at various ranges and speeds and the UnKnown Distance (UKD) field fire.

Typical "Iron Maiden" is about 23 inches wide and 40 or 48 inches tall. Depending on the conditions and requirements the shots can be from anywhere on the Iron Maiden to specific areas. To about 350 or 400 yards it's not uncommon in non-competitions to "head shoot" the target (about 6" x 9" or 6" x 10") with first round hits conditions permitting. Caution dictates that the smaller areas are only shot in "good conditions" and when there is doubt the shooter will shoot "center mass" of the target (sternum area). At distances to 500 or 550 yards shooters will "on a good day" shoot the bolts that hold the targets in place.

In many competitions the shooter gets a maximum of two (2) rounds per target (if required). Often the scoring is "First round hit is 10 points and a second round hit is 5 points". Shooters have timed intervals for shooting, perhaps 20 seconds for the first round and 5 second or so for a make-up (second round).

The year I competed at CFSAC the (10 shot) 600 meter "One Shot -One Kill" top score was 50 7V's and second place was 50 6V's (max score would be 50 10V's)... I don't have the V size readily available (maybe someone else can supply it) but it was in the 6" to 8" x 10" to 12" area I'd guess.

Once again, as always... match shooting does not directly relate to hunting field shooting. During matches the shots are fired on command and not as decided by the shooter so sometimes conditions are not too good.

During Long Range Rifle and "Sniper" classes I've assisted with and attended at private civilian schools it's not uncommon for students on the final "exam" field fire to score 90 to 100 points using the "10 and 5" point system. Ranges for these classes typically begin at 300 and go to 900 to 1000 yards.

AJ. Dave.... thank you for your responses (note; my use of the term "sniper" was not meant at all to be inflammatory, I just couldn't think of another term.)

Relative to military shooters, the long range hunter generally has the advantage of shooting off of a solid rest, but with the disadvantages of being subject to small errors in range estimation and of needing an expanding bullet from a round packing at least 1,000 ftlbs at the other end.

Would it be correct to say that such a shooter, off of a portable bench set up in the field, might expect around 8" groups at 1,000 yards with a hunting load under ideal field conditions? Not looking to flame here, just learn. Both sides of this debate already know that the margin for error decreases with distance.

AJ writes...
"...Should have seen the fight in MI when we were trying to legalize hunting deer from an elevated stand with firearms..."

AJ... Much to my surprise that Liberal Heckhole (I rarely use "Hell" as a metaphor anymore, that place reportedly being so bad as to be beyond human comprehension), anyway that Liberal Heckhole New Jersey recently opened a hunting season for bears, over the rabid protests of the Antis.

On the other hand, IIRC California famously banned the hunting of mountain lions with dogs and Oregon the hunting of bears over bait. and several areas of the country have banned trapping. Again IIRC the main argument (besides "cruel") employed by the Antis in these cases was that such methods were "unfair" or "unsporting". Whereas even New Jersey could pass a "fair" bear hunt.

Once again, I submit that the Antis could get a whole lot of mileage out of footage of guys knocking over elk and such at 1,000 yards.

A measure of general disapproval of LR hunting might be behind the fact that at least some states already have in effect limits on how heavy a hunting rifle can be (16 pounds??)

Anyway, wishing to contribute something, and only half in jest <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> here's a link to the ideal LR hunting accessory, a battery powered wireless anemometer (wind meter). True, they only broadcast 100 yards, but I believe the manufacturer does offer signal relay units good for 300. Oregon Scientific makes good stuff. Heck, a string of these things installed before deer season out across that clearcut and you're all set <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://wireless-lan.cebru.com/kitchen/P000IngngjQnah/Oregon_Scientific_WGR968_Wireless_Anemometer/

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher

By "military shooters" I take it you mean "snipers", and sniper is not a term I take or believe was offered as inflammatory or derogatory... so no problem with me.

I don't believe that there would be a significant difference in the "solid rest" used by either a long range hunter shooting from a portable bench and the position acceptable to a sniper taking a long range shot, each works to make the shot high probablilty.

I agree that the hunter has the disadvantage of range errors.

The bullets used in LR Hunting are often the same type used by military snipers, Hollow Point Match Bullets.

I believe that most LR Hunters can achieve 1 MOA precision (groups) with the use of a spotter (a "spotter", as used here, refers to a second person assisting the shooter, a person with a spotting scope). I also believe that many LRHunters can achieve 1 MOA accuracy. Accuracy meaning Point Of Impact (POI) within 1 MOA of Point Of Aim (POA).

I have heard of these weight limitation on "hunting rifles" and accept this without a problem... Basically I understand the intent but don't believe it can be completely achieved in that manner. I believe it came about partially through mis-representation, ignorance (on both sides) and folks using equipment and techniques with which they were not sufficiently qualified.

Dave... Thank you for your reply.

Of course feel free to correct me if I am understanding you wrong...

I believe 1 minute of angle at 1,000 yards ballparks to 10".

Understood on precision being repeatability of results, commonly indicated by the "group". Is it correct to say that precision is determined by physics; the rifle, the variation in velocity, the stability of the bullet, etc?

Given a precision (group size) of 10" at 1,000 yards, bullets in a perfectly centered group would be expected to fall 5" or less from point of aim, giving an accuracy of 1/2 minute of angle.

Actual performance of course must factor in human error in aiming and firing, hence your estimate of 1 moa of accuracy. On paper, a standard of 1 moa of accuracy could be achieved with bullets in a group falling up to 20" apart.

I'm assuming this level of performance is a ballpark estimate of "average" field conditions. Probably many will assert they can consistently do better than that. It is understood that you were referring to an estimate of what "most" hunters could achieve. Certainly there are going to be some who are more accurate than most.

For general interest I picked up a copy of the Jan/Feb "RifleShooter" magazine. The "1,000 Yard Shooting on a Budget" article is by Bruce Gray.

The specifics:

rifle: .308 cal. Remington 700VLS. Bought new, mildy worked over with 26" barrel free-floated free floated and stock trigger adjusted to 2.5 lb.

scope: Springfield Armory "tactical" 6-20x56mm (apparently just coming into production ca. $799). Wayne "MG73M 26 MOA" tactical bases (another prototype), Wayne Maxima QD rings.

ammo: all factory, both using 175 grain Sierra BTHP MatchKing.

Federal Gold Medal Match (2,690 fps, av.grp .520"@100yds)

Black Hills Match (2,802fps, av.grp. .480"@100yds).

Best 3 shot group acheived at 1,000 yards during sighting in was an early 5.75" using the Black Hills Match. Sighting in was apparently not completed in this range session due to crosswinds.

This is the first of a series of "RifleShooter" articles on this project, should be interesting.

Also promoted in the article is the United States Practical Shooting Association ( www.rifle@uspsa.org ) and their new Manual Rifle Division which is intended to establish and promote Long Range Practical Rifle events. To this end they are asking interested shooters to contact them.

Sounds like some interesting competitions are in the offing, at least they'll prob'ly publicise the group sizes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Birdwatcher

BirdWatcher

Quote

I believe 1 minute of angle at 1,000 yards ballparks to 10".

Understood on precision being repeatability of results, commonly indicated by the "group". Is it correct to say that precision is determined by physics; the rifle, the variation in velocity, the stability of the bullet, etc?

Given a precision (group size) of 10" at 1,000 yards, bullets in a perfectly centered group would be expected to fall 5" or less from point of aim, giving an accuracy of 1/2 minute of angle.

Actual performance of course must factor in human error in aiming and firing, hence your estimate of 1 moa of accuracy. On paper, a standard of 1 moa of accuracy could be achieved with bullets in a group falling up to 20" apart.

End Quote

I'm a little confused (could be a normal condition for me!). Precision for me would include marksmanship capabilities to some degree. For example; Standard 100 yard group as submitted by "most" hunters would be smallish (we'll say 1 MOA) but centered about 2 above the center of the target (the bullseye). Precision is 1 MOA but accuracy is 2 MOA (assuming the shooter had intended to hit the bullseye). This means to me that if there were a "normal" distribution of the rounds in the "group" 50% of these rounds would be between 1.5 MOA and 2 MOA of bullseye center and the other 50% would be between 2.0 MOA and 2.5 MOA from the center of the bullseye. This shooter can confidently expect to hit a 5 inch tile at 100 yards nearly 100% of the time using a center-mass hold or center-mass Point Of Aim (POA).

In my scenario at some greater distance, 1000 yards perhaps, it looks like this. Group of about 1 MOA (10.47" +-) centered within 1 MOA of the intended Point Of Impact (POI), the bullseye if you wish. Bullets nearest to POA will be within 5" those furthest will be within 15" from POA. Target size for nearly 100% hit success will be 30" using center-mass POA. Total distribution would not be uniform as vertical accuracy errors are more due to range and horizontal are due to wind... range being easier than wind to determine. I would expect actual POI distribution to be a horizontally flattened oval if many groups were shot over a period of time.

Some do better some do worse, this is true. This info and data speculation if for my type of shooting, "first round hit". For those LRHunters shooting greater distances (and many shooting deer at 1000 yards and beyond) there is the "sighter" or "spotter" round method. This technique (I don't use this method as I'm a "short range" shooter) greatly reduces the accuracy component for the actual "kill" shot. The sighting method is corrected for the "kill" shot after observing the impact of the "sighter/spotter" round... very accurate method/technique.

Thanks for the heads-up on the magazine article... I am interested in "field" condition shooting and may look into the "practical shooting" portions of this.

The 308 Win is what many shooters learn on and I have several that I routinely shoot. I don't personally care for the Springfield Armory scopes but they are generally functional.

I shot High Power for a while many years back and enjoyed it but I've since begun competing in tactical matches. I enjoy the tactical "sniper" matches as they more closely relate to actual hunting scenarios, the distances are unknown before the shots, shots are from bipods and/or packs, there are no "groups" at distance... just "hit" or "miss" and there is fieldcraft. The competitions are often very demanding and some very good useful hunting info comes to the surface often. Perhaps this "Practical Rifle" type thing will be challenging and educational too.

Sorry... rambled on too long already.

update on earlier post

The year I competed at CFSAC the (10 shot) 600 meter "One Shot -One Kill" top score was 50 7V's and second place was 50 6V's (max score would be 50 10V's)... I don't have the V size readily available (maybe someone else can supply it) but it was in the 6" to 8" x 10" to 12" area I'd guess.

I found the sizes of the various areas on the "Charging Man target, Figure 11/59...the target used for the 600 meter OSOK match. outside edge, 44"H x 17"W (4 points), inner area, 16"H x 8"W (5 points), center score, 8"H x 4"W (V count).

Dave... thanks for clearing that up.

The author's logic for choosing .308 was sound, apparently that particular heavy bullet (175 grain) loading will stay supersonic a little over 1,000 yards out of that 26" barrel, although with a relatively long flight time (1.7 seconds). He also pointed out that match quality factory ammo is available in that caliber and that reams of stuff has been published pertaining to handloads. Plus I'll bet recoil and blast are pretty mild out of that long, heavy rifle. All of which merely adds to my own high opinion of that caliber.

The cover blurb WAS misleading, anyone could get into "long range shooting for under $1,000" if the Springfield factory loaned 'em an $800 scope to try out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But the author does point out that the opitcs are, if anything, more critical than the rifle.

One quote did get my attention "...I'd put myself behind a Remington... ...They usually shoot about better than anything else out of the box...".

Hmm... I seem to recall some heated threads around here originating with comments like that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

DaveKing - Said you didn't like the Springfield Armory scopes, was wondering if you could give some heads-up on that? Have often thought of getting one, would appreciate some input of your dislikes for them. Thanks

RRW

I've had less than a representative sample of them, two (2) and I've not been overly impressed with their durability. One suffered a series of cracked (crushed) lenses when the heavy duty tactical style rings were tightened on it... It became pretty much useless in about 2 seconds. I traded the other away before it could be properly abused.

I expect my equipment to perform under rough conditions and not loose zero or break (they're tools, not chicken eggs). I've had a large number of Leupold 30mm type scopes and currently have one (1) NightForce NXS 5.5x22 and two (2) Nikon tacticals. These three series of scopes seem to be truly durable and I have had no unexpected suprises while mounting them in the same style rings that crushed the SpringField Armory scope. I've dropped, slid onto, and skidded down some shale slids and mountain trails with the three more durable scopes attached to my rifles and there has been no problems, no zero shifts. I feel quite confident that the scopes currently in my inventory can withstand "normal" wear and tear... If there's any doubt about quality or durabiliy I get rid of the item.

DaveKing - Many thanks, odds are you saved me alot of grief. Guess I'll stick with what I've got. Have a 3x9 Nikon and a 6x18 Redfield with accu-trac. Redfield needs sent in, don't know what's happened to it, but I can't hit a bull in the a$$ at 50yds. with it. Put the Nikon on and using same mounts, not a bit of trouble. Anyway, thanks, would've really grieved me to spend that kind of money and gotten a raw deal.

So, which bullet would one use that will offer reliable expansion and the necessary accuracy potential?

I submit that this is not one of those - taken from an animal at just over half the proposed distance and started at around 2900 fps muzzle velocity.

[Linked Image]

MatchKings are probably out of the question in terms of terminal performance reliability. What about Ballistic Tips or are there others that can be both accurate enough and reliable - or- are we really expecting the bullet to FMJ?