I'm thinking about building my first custom rifle. I was just wonderding what you guys think about the 338-378 Wby caliber. Thanks

its an awesome round for your intended use...... itll kick like an Arkansas mule.... 721

50 BMG . . . . (grin)

BMT

I have a .338RUM and love it. I use the 210gr TSX and get very good results. The weatherby is similar and I would think you will love it. The recoil will be substantial. Practice will help. I say go for it. HAPPY HUNTING

The 338 RUM is a great LR elk cartridge. Shoots the 225 partition at 3200 FPS out of my 30" barrel. However the
338-378 would make a great elk whackin stick, no doubt.

Pic of my custom RUM.

Nathanial-that looks to be a McMillan General Purpose stock, true and or no.

One of my long range elk rigs is a M70 push feed with a 25" 4.5 weight Schneider on it chambered in 340. It is bedded in a McMillan General Purpose in Desert Camo.

I run the 210 TSX brand and it works just fine.

I've been using the 340 for a lot of years and am on my 4th tube if I remember right.

It is one wonderful round and for a long range elk rifle it and the 338 RUM are IMO without peer.

Mark D

SWEET!!! guaranteed elk getter. HAPPY HUNTING.

Mark, It is a HTG stock. The 340 is a wonderful cartridge, I just have not shot mine in some time. My 340 is built on a German Weatherby action and stock with an Obermeyer #5 barrel.

This might be kind of a dumb question, but what will I gain with the 338-378 over the 300 win mag. I was looking into it and I'm starting to think it might not be worth it. I was looking at a 180 grain bullet in the win mag, and a 250 grain bullet in the wby. With the price of brass and the amount of powder I'm really starting to think it really isn't worth it. What do you guys think.

I've never seen an elk shot with one but there was guy at my range with one. Talk about muzzle blast. He might as well been shooting a 50 BMG. We were both on the 200 meter range. He was shooting 12" groups with it because he was flinching so bad. I think the ammo for that thing is about $100/20 if you buy it. My 7STW was keeping all the shots in the 2" bull at that range. If your planning on humping that thing up and down mountains you might want to think about it too.

My LR elk rig is with a 7mm Dakota with the 200 grain Wildcat Bullet. I use a Holland QD brake and it's recoil is all but nill.
Lilja 1-7 Twist barrel in a center-grip XP-100. I'm running 2700 fps, but in a rifle length you will get about 300 fps more.

Ive used a 340 weatherby for over 30 plus years, almost excluesively with 250 hornady spire point bullets, it hits NOTCIABLY harder than a 300 win but I doubt it kills any better if your only looking at the quetion from," will a single well placed hit kill." yes it hits hard and tends to drop ELK close to the impact point, thats why I use it, but Id also point out that in 35 years of hunting ELK Ive had less than 5 chances to take shots at over 450 yards (I passed on three of those chances) and all but two of the ELK Ive killed have been well under 300 yards, so an extremely flat trajectory may be an over rated function in an ELK RIFLE
I also have a laminated card taped to the rifle stock with the drop data for my specific load and site in data, from 100yards to 500 yards in 50 yard intervals, and a lazer range finder.
the data looks like this for my load
range drop...tof............10mph wind drift
100...+3.36........................
200.. +3.46...2 tenths........2.7
300....-1.91... .35 tenths....6.3
350.....-7....... .41 tenths....8.7
400....-13.8.... .48 tenth.....11.6
450....-22.4.... .55 tenths....15
500...-33.1.... .63 tenths.....18.3
550.. -45.6... .7 tenths.........23.2

youll have a hard time finding a better ELK rifle in my opinion!, hits like THORS HAMMER loaded with a good 250 grain bullet! zips thru ,exits, leaves a huge but usually very short blood trail, whats NOT TO LIKE??? basically if your a good shot,have a good rest, any ELK you see inside of about 500 yards is potenially in your freezer with a single well placed shot! you won,t be wondering (DID I HIT THAT ELK?) YOULL KNOW)
the 338-378 Wby caliber costs ALOT MORE ammos MUCH more expensive and you only gain about 100 fps, Id suggest getting a 340 wby

+1 on the 340 Weatherby. If you need a long range hammer, it and the 338 RUM sit at the top of the heap.

I think a 300 Win Mag will effectively do the same though.

Nathanial, Luv that rig. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Will be well worth it if you are serious. But if you are starting to think cost and powder amounts, bullet cost etc.... you are already lost. Just use what you have. No one can justify the expense and if you are wilting, get a BDL type in a normal round.

My choice when I get that far is the 338 on the 300 RUM case. It'll be a heck of a round too. 338 Lapua has been on the list a bit too.
Have the 50 bmg but need something a bit more portable.

IMHO when you deal with large game, a large bullet is a help.

And another IMHO, wind drift is always more important than drop, drop can be handled easily with a rangefinder which you need much after 300 anyway....

Regards, Jeff

I think I agree. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I was just out shooting some 290's in the 300 RUM.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Dead on about wind drift too. Elevation is easy in comparison. I'll cheat any way I can to reduce drift.

Elevation is by far the easies component to deal with.

Mirage/angle/wind is another deal.

Mark D

What do you call long range?

My long range elk rifle is a 8mm remington mag, 340 weatherby is a awesome long range elk rnd,I have one like new in classifieds if anyone is interested grin.

My Long range gun is a Ruger #1 in 338-378 weatherby with a 30" Stainless Gaillard Barrel. Nothing escapes it`s wrath <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WOW!!!!

Don

The gain as you go up into the SOOPER mag range is not that great until you start shooting beyond 300 or 400 yards.

Within 300 yards--for Elk--the 35 whelen class is as good as any.

After that, the 338 Ultra, 338 Lapua, 340 Wby, etc, really start to pull away.

If you are loking at getting more bang for your buck, the 338 Ultra, Lapua, or 340 Weatherby will get you into a great Elk rifle, that might could be re-sold.

I have personaly seen gunshops refuse to take 378 based rifles--TWICE. A 30-378 was refused as a consignment, a 338-378 was refused as a trade in.

If you are serious about this project, I suggest the 338 Ultra (a factory rifle that you could re-barrell to the 300 Ultra if you are dissatisfied with the 338.)

Just more grist for the mill,

Good Luck,

BMT

The 338 Lapua is serious medicine and has ... a lot of military printed material on the round. I like the idea of something with so much documentation, where someone else has done the academic work for you.

I think the 338-378 had its "hey day" with some other long powder keg inefficient catridges. But the good news is you may find a good deal on a great rifle.

What do I know though? I talked my brother into the lazzeroni thing. I was facinated with it and John's work, and the Warbird. Still am. Won't shoot it without a lead sled, but think of it highly. He used it last season with "great" success on a nice bull. I had never seen anything hit so hard, but I am much less experienced than my peers on the board on this. I enjoy the academics of it.

I vote with petr, I have a 338 Lapua and while similar to other large case capacity 33 cals, it lacks the belt and head spaces on the shoulder.

IMO anything bigger than the .340, .338 RUM, or .338 Lap would be a big mistake; pun intended.

I'm no zen master elk hunter but after bouncing 5 200gn 30cal partitions through elk at distances from 350-500yds I wonder what more could you ask for? These are from a bone stock win SS classic 26" using lots of orange can 4831 to get 3020fps from the muzzle. Recoil is stiff but manageable in an 8.5# rifle. Switched to the 200 TSX and haven't had an opportunity at an elk since, but I'm hoping to change that the week of Halloween.

I shoot a Sako in .300win/mag. for elk, and have dumped quite a few across canyons, with good results. One was about 480 to 500 yards, hit him just in front of the right hip & exited the brisket after passing through the heart.
My pet load is 75gr of IMR7828 in WW brass cci 250 primers pushing a 200gr barnes X at 3000 fps.
Next year I'll have to start working up a new load for the TSX, as I'm about out of X-bullets.

Any of the fast 338's are great elk rounds.
I shoot a 700LSS in 338 RUM which is hammer for elk.
The 338-378 Wby will give you a very modest gain over the 338 RUM and factory ammo/brass is very expensive.

JD338

I have both the 340 weatherby and the 338/378 KT on a weatherby mark v action (born before weatherby started their 338/378), either rifle will snap your teeth together if you don't hold them correctly. your choice of a 338/378 cannot be bettered (in my opinion) all the best.

"This might be kind of a dumb question, but what will I gain with the 338-378 over the 300 win mag."

I don't think you'll gain ANYTHING with a 338-378 over a 300 magnum. I think you'll lose something.

Remember that you are going to be walking a lot farther than you are shooting, and it is impossible to make a leaping blasting 338-378 as light as an accurate 300 magnum.

My Wby Ultralightweight weighs about 8 pounds with sling and scope and 26" bbl, and shoots MOA.

You didn't answer the post asking what was long range, but unless you are going to park yourself at a bench and shoot consistently beyond 500 yards with a 20 pound or heavier target rifle, you are handicapping yourself with a 340 or larger IMHO.

I kinda like my new 300 WSM with 168 TSX's.......

What kinda ranges are y'all talking??

The .300 mags, .338 win mag and its bigger kin the .340, the .338 RUM and the Lapua will all deliver all the energy to 400 yds you'd want and with the trajectories to be able to hit the vitals. I don't think you should plan on shooting at elk at further ranges in general prinicple.

The .378 Wby case derivatives, the .300 and .338 are longer of barrel, heavier, and with much more blast and recoil than you need to put up with. I can envision only a few special scenarios where you could put them to good use on elk and none of them would include climbing, hiking, or walking far in the mountains with them.

Weight is exceedingly important when you're hunting in the mountains and I wouldn't have a rifle all up heavier than 8.5 lbs personally.

I doubt few people can shoot the .338-378 well enough to use it even in the special circumstances it would be appropriate and the .300-378 give you nothing positive over the other .300s without undue cost.

And some would argue with good points that the .30-06 would fit your bill and do well and I wouldn't argue against them.

This all is assuming the use of good and appropriate bullets so that they are not the issue and the usual rifles so chambered; sure you could have a .338-378 built "lighter" and perhaps shorter but that would also be compounding the mistake.

George

If it was me I would go with a 7mm RUM with 160gr TSX and keep the rifle 7.5lb or under if you are hunting in the moutains. Randy.

A 300 Roy would work good.Also a 7mm STW is pretty flat shooting son of a gun.

if the ranges are getting long i run a 7mmRUM with a 160 NAB with great results, btu may buy a 338 RUM soon as the GF has taken to my A-bolt. 338 as if i needed a reason to by another

I have owned and used most of the .338's including the .338/378 and I settled on the .340 as the best balance of performance. Mine was Magna Ported for a review about 10 years back and it is easier to shoot than many unported .300's but there is a wollop that no .300 can match.

I recommend the .340 as that is where I untimately demonstrated my opinion. The .338/378 is much noisier, heavier recoil and blast, does not appear to hit any harder than the .340 and too often thinks it is a .378 which is the only cartridge ever to launch a personal attack upon its user as a mate of mine used to say.

To digress a little:

Roy Weatherby called the .378 "the Mule" because of its recoil. I have used them all and the .338/378 is very like the .378, especially when you use the 300 grain bullets which can be driven faster than they were designed to be launched.

.340 Weatherby.

AGW

I find the 338/378 to be fun to shoot. In identical Accumarks with factory brakes I don't think the 338/378 kicks that much more. My 15 year old doesn't have any trouble keeping it under 1 inch. I can shoot 3 shots cutting each other with it. We are shooting 225 grain TSX's out of it at 3300. My 300Wby shoots 200 grain Accubonds at 3100. Just watching impacts the 338/378 hits way harder. My 16" gong weighs 88 pounds. At 500 yards the 300 will make it swing back to maybe 30 degrees. The 338/378 will smack it back to 45 degrees straight back. It's a big difference. On lighter gongs where my 300 will knock it straight back to 90 degrees the 338/378 will swing it around the support. Trying to recover a 225 TSX at almost 400 yards took 7 gallon jugs placed end to end to slow it up and the bullet was caught in the 8th jug.

In the Accumark it is just as handy to carry as the 257Wby. In fact it weighs a few ounces less than the 257Wby. Right at 10 pounds even without the sling and a 6.5-20x50LR Leupold mounted on it.

Nobody really shoots factory ammo so that point is moot. The brass costs about $200 per hundred but so far have lasted 10 shots each and are still going. 100 brass will last a very long time. It does use a lot of powder. 115 grains of RL25 to launch the 225 TSX�s at 3300+.

At 600 yards it will lay the smack down on that trophy bull a heck of a lot harder than your 300 Win and 180 grain bullets. If you feel the need, it is a dandy round. If you want a packing rifle I would just pick up an Accumark and go hunting. If you want a specific, �landing gun,� I would be looking at a 30� barrel with a Defensive Edge brake on it.

I came to the .340 too for all the reasons you suggested. No bull has traveled more than 20-30 yds and the last at truly long range - time and circumstances prevented me from cutting the distance - simply belly-flopped with a 225-gr Lost Rivers Tech bullet (not unlike an "X" bullet) started at 3000 fps through the shoulders.

I think the point overlooked in all of this debate is the creation of a "shooting system" which includes caliber, bullet weight, optics with ability to compensate for range, platform (lower on the list), rangefinder and most importantly a shooter that is practiced and prepared to provide the launch code correctly. The fallacy of elk hunting is that you need a really big gun to kill an elk as I see so many times at the range of the cowering recoil shy visitors shooting the superduper big bangers. I personally am a short range shooter 3-400 yards so I am very comfortable with my choices. I stay with the 30-06 based cases. All of the above mentioned CALIBERS are capable of the shots you are talking about but consider the rest of the shooting system for this question as well...

I agree with ya, I shoot a 30-06, 6.5-06, 300H&H for most elk hunting, out to 2-300 yards. Past that, I like the horse power of a larger cartridge for intentional long range hunting.

If your going to use the rifle for long range only and your only going to hunt near the road system then a long heavy 338/378 would be great. What ever you get make sure that you can put up with the recoil enough to practise alot.

Jamie

HiredGun,

I just did a brief calculation which, if I am right, shows that any .308 bullet weighing more than 186 grains has a better sectional density than your .338 bullet weighing 225 grains. I don't have B.C. tables with me right now but B. C. is probably better.

What that means is that a 200 grain bullet from your 300 Wby at 3100 fps may be better at long range than your 225 grain bullet from the .338 at 3300. At some point (again I don't have my stuff here), it will be going faster. It will be deflected less by the wind. It will retain more muzzle energy.

Deflecting a gong is simply a measurement of momentum. The recoil momentum of the rifle is the same as the bullet striking momentum, though your striking momentum is less because you are shooting at long range. So all this proves is that your .338/378 recoils a more than your .300 Wby (some of the "recoil" being deflected by the brake). An elk would not be killed or knocked over by holding the rifle butt to the elk's side and shooting, but that is more than the "knock down power" you are applying to the gong.

Muzzle brakes are another issue entirely. I would not have one. I value the hearing of myself and my guide, and they are illegal on a lot of ranges. Some are removable but that can change the zero, I am told. To each his own.

It would help if elkchsr would tell us what he means by "long range." Some people shoot game at 1000 yards or a bit less with 60-pound rifles from a bench they set up at an ideal location. Others hike through the mountains with an 8-pound rifle and think 300 yards is long range.

Indy,
You are on the right track. At 600 yards the higher B.C. 200 Accubond catches the faster bullet but is still 300 foot pounds less energy. At 1000 yards the Accubond is going faster and matches the 338 TSX in energy. The thing that is crippling the 338/378 is this poor B.C. on the TSX. The dilemma is if we put Accubonds in it which are ballistically superior we are afraid of bullet failure should we have to use it inside of 300 yards. The TSX will shoot clear through at about any impact speed. Though the 300Wby is a very efficient long range tool the 338/378 in a long barrel and heavier bullets would have a noticeable advantage in energy and extended supersonic flight. That is, it is possible for it to kill elk at longer range than the 300Wby, 340Wby, or any RUM given the right loads for the job. For a custom, I�m thinking a little faster twist and maybe a 32� barrel and shot 300 grain SMK�s out of it. No other factory brass based round could match it.

If you shoot without earplugs you are damaging your hearing. Since I never shoot without plugs and always warn those around me when I�m going to shoot, using muzzle brakes has never been an issue.

HiredGun,

How do 300 grain SMKs behave on game at various ranges? As far as ballistic coefficient, it is hard to beat them but will they expand at long range without blowing up at short range?

The 338-378 Wby is an excellent long range hammer for elk.
I have a 700 LSS in 338 RUM with a VXIII 2.5x8 w/ M1 dials.
Accuracy is .5 MOA if I do my part. Works great on elk!
[img][image]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/JD338_photos/JD700LSS.jpg[/img][/image]
JD338

You might glance at my recent post here:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?

I never saw a caliber larger than .308. I reload for two of the long range hunters mentioned, one uses plain old 180 Nosler BT's in his 300 Win Mag and the other uses 160 Nosler Accubonds in his 7STW.

JD338 sure love the look of your rem. I wanted to get a SS lam but they quit making them in the RUMs. Hope to someday find a used one.....

Azshooter,

Thanks! I really like the looks too, the accuracy and the knock down power is awesome. I hope you find an LSS in a RUM. I will never understand what Remington was thinking.

BTW, both of my grandparents were school teachers in Douglas. My grandmother went into realestate (Evert Jones)until she retired. I also had an aunt in McNeal but they moved because of the dope drops.

JD338

Dang Indy, I'd say you're catching on nicely. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have a Sako chambered in 340wby with a vias brake, & i think it kicks less then my 444 leaver gun. I have a 4-16 burris mounted on it and I can pack it all day long. Great elk gun and easy to carry, How can you beat that.

well my vote would be the 300 rum. i have always used an old -06 in the past but this yerar built a custom 300 rum. i love it. for me the recoil is very manageable without a break. i am not afraid of pulling the trigger. The main reason i picked it is that my shots are not going to exceed 450 yards and up to that point the rounds i am using have less drop. I can hold on target to a longer range. yes wind is a factor time will tell. i am using the tsx bullets at this point next year i might bo to accubonds.

Disclaimer: I do not own a 378.
But if you are going to Big bore case size, might as well go true big bore - 460 or 378 with no neck-down. I'd make scheduled appointments with the chiropractor and hearing specialist prior to hunting.
At least you will be able to stop a charging pickup truck.
For practical long range shooting the energy delivered by a 300 magnum is sufficient for elk. And you will have to know the trajectory very well regardless of the caliber you pick.
My conclusion: why not get something practical and reasonably affordable, that won't dislocate your shoulder if you happen to shoot it more than once, do homework on the trajectory and go practice?...
I just fielded my new 300 Wby and like the way it shoots a lot.
-P

Thanks for all your advice. I've been out of town with work for the last couple weeks. I was leaning towards the 338-378 just because it is something different. I still haven't decided what i'm going to do for sure, but I'm pretty well convinced I want something in the .338 range. Thanks again for all of your posts.

Another vote for the 340wby. My accumark will shoot the factory 250 grain partition at 3040fps and hover about 1 inch at 100 yds for 3 shots. I can get a little better accuracy with handloads but can't touch that velocity.

A 338-378 for elk? That�s silly. How far do you think you�ll be able to shoot the thing accurately? Buy something practical like a 270 Win, 270 WBY, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag. If you need to feel pain try the 300 WBY, 338 Win, 340 WBY, 375 H&H. Unless you�re one of those �special� shooters, you�ll never be able to handle the recoil.

But if you really had any experience with big caliber rifles and what it really takes to kill an elk you wouldn�t be asking for peoples opinion on the internet.

So far I've killed elk with a .243win, 25-06, 280rem, 7mm rem, 300 win, and a .375 H&H. I was really just looking for something that is a little different. I really don't need a .338 caliber rifle, but I want one.

I would buy a 338, then!!
I have a 340wby, 338win, and a 338RUM. I have put over 500rds though the 340, and it shoots great! Yeah, it kicks-some days more than I want to deal with, but other times I can shoot her as well as any of my 270's!
Let us know what 338 you get and good hunting/shooting with it.

I just got back from a Montana hunt in the Bob Marshall wilderness. Got a good 5x5 on the last day. One shot at 480 yrds with a 7mm Wby 160 gr tsx @3130. He dropped like a rock. Bullet went thru both shoulders and stopped just under the skin.

Aggie-glad you had a good hunt, who did you book with? (I am assuming it was a guided trip)

I dropped a bull 2 years ago at 526 with about that same load in my 7 Mashburn Super. The only diff is the bullet on mine did exit, other than that the exact same deal.

Those big 7's are sure good at their job.

Mark D

I'm with you Dober, a big 7 or 30 will kick less, pack lighter and do everything needed doing on any bull at any range anyone should be shooting an elk at!

Aggie, cool beans... congrat's man!

I have packed 30-06 and 300 Win mag all of my life.Until 4 years ago when my STW was build.Now you can't get that big 7 out of my hands.Actually it's now my favorate cartridge.For good reason.

Mark, I hunted with Virgal Burns. He is a good friend and I've hunted with him the last 4 years.

Seems to me you took a nice buck with him last year didn't you?

Mark D

My vote is for the 300 Roy. You can buy a vanguard for $450.00 and put the rest of the money into shooting it. And, you should use it on everything so you know where it will hit when that "long range" elk shows up. Though you will see way more elk to shoot in the heavy stuff, which is why the lever guns still sell.

I'm with siskiyous6 - 300 Win or Roy

I've had all the hard recoiling guns I can take, and the 300 Win or 308 Win are now my go to guns.

If you REALLY want a 338 caliber, go with the 338 RUM. Brass is readily available, and the ballistics are close enough to the 338/375 wby that the elk won't notice.

Mark, yep a really nice mulie last year. I have had good luck with Virgal every year. He has a very good area in the Bob. Lots of game and they will hunt with you as hard as you want.

Ive had a 338 lapua. Darn nice round. Brass a bit spendy. All rounds mentioned are good. Cost of some more than others. I live in Alaska and finally settled on a 8mm Remington Magnum.
I can load 180 Grain bullets that push 3300 ft per second. 200 Grainers to 3100 plus,and custom 250 grain bullets to a bit over 2800 ft per second.
With the advent of the 325 WSM more 8mm bullets should show up.
Still anything from a 300 win to the 338-378 will do. You have to have a larger action for the lupua and the 338-378 due to case head size.
What ever way you go, enjoy.

My long range rig is a custom chambering based on the 338 lapua necked down to .284, fires a 200 grain wildcat at just over 3300 fps. with a bc of .9, this bullet does wonders out there a ways. groups average .8" at 300 yds off the bipod.
it weighs 15.5 pounds loaded, but sets up rock solid on the bipod. here's a pic

RR

RR,
Is that one of Kirby Allen's creations? Its a sweet lookin rig <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

HBB

yes it is
RR

I need to quit lookin at pictures like those of your rifle and reading about how well they perform before I give in to temptation and have Kirby build me one too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HBB

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4665478

Anyone who thinks they should be shooting elk, or anything else, long range. Put paper plates at those distances, and keep all your rounds on them. In different light and wind conditions. If every round is in them, from field positions, you may be able to play the game. 95% of hunters can't, at long range. Don't be a wounder. The animals deserve better. You aren't carrying a benchrest with you into the mountains, and a bipod doesn't help much, if you have adreneline running, or are just short of breath. Or, just plain are not a good, practiced shot. If you aren't shooting 2-300 rounds a month, every month, from your hunting rifle, don't kid yourself you are an expert long range shooter. You are not.

This is so funny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Hell, if you can't stay in the paper plate at 50 yds you shouldn't be elk hunting. That criteria will eliminate at least 50% of the elk hunters and we can eliminate most of the rest of them by checking the paper plate at 100yds.

I always love to hear from the experienced expert who think you can run 200-300 rounds a month down a long range gun barrel and still have a gun barrel that will shoot when it comes hunting season.

And I would just have to say that the advice on not using a bipod because it doesn't help much is just a pearl of wisdom cast before us swine.

To get to 200-300 rounds downrange a month and still have an elk gun, you pick one with similar ballistics if that matters to you, and practice. Shoot a bit with the real one and you are good to go.

Has always worked for me. Makes paper plates easy.

Bipods work well, but I prefer a pack myself.

As to the issue of adrenaline- only a fool thinks that folks here attempt shots if they are not workable. Wobble area is one of the factors to look at on each shot.

I'm still more worried about those 50-100 yard mart mart shooters. Heck last week a local of ours, that we have told better, wanted to check his gun zero before season and called, out of ammo wanting to know if I had any 270 ammo. I asked what kind, he said he didnt' care, he'd go buy a box of what he used later on..... I dont' own a 270 anyway.. But then again another aquaintence has a 270, let his BIL shoot at a buck and they couldn't find it, come to find out he was out of ammo and grabbed 3 rounds from someone else, then came to my range and shot one of those last 2 rounds at paper.... at 100 the round was dead on, about 16 inches low......

And you want to toss stones at those of us that can? Please.

I see everyone likes the 340, 338Rum, 300 ultra and 338-378 but no one said anything about the 358 STA or a custom 358 Ultra mag. These are both great long range elk rounds and they have great knock down power. I have a 358 STA and 2 358 ultra mags. The STA puts a 225 gr. out at 3006 FPS thru a 24" BBL. and the the Ultra mags put a 225 gr. out a 26-27.5" BBL. at 3180-3250 FPS. Just another though for a rifle.

Hoeram

I shoot a couple 338 RUMS and an 358STA from time to time. The 358 is a great cartridge butthe rifle I have built around it is not long range worthy. This stems from not having developed a load for LR use and that it kicks like hell in the nine pound rifle. However, it is going to Montana this month for elk and then to Alaska for bear in the spring. Sighted in @200 and I know it shoots to 300 @ 2 moa just fine, plenty fine for the intended type hunting.
Nathan

[/quote]


I always love to hear from the experienced expert who think you can run 200-300 rounds a month down a long range gun barrel and still have a gun barrel that will shoot when it comes hunting season.

[/quote]

Not an expert here, just experienced. I do shoot several hundred rounds a month.
Barrels are threaded for a reason, Greg and Tim love my checks!
All types of hunting carry responsibility for taking game ethically. If you need a new barrel before hunting season comes around, get one or do not use the rifle.

Greg as in Greg Tannel? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm... seems to me if a guy wants to kill an elk, let alone have an opportunity at 500 yards he'd better be WHERE the elk are. I can't fathom hauling a 15lb rifle up any elk mountain... nice in theory but not in practice.

Come on Mac-toughen up!...grins

Don't you know that the 15 lb elk rig is the up n coming for the steep and deep and for the dark timber where the elkies live.

Mark D

If a person isn't up to carrying a 15# gun up a little molehill then they might want to get some new batteries for their pacemaker. Energizers would be good. It would also be a good idea to hire some body to tote the elk out for you being as I have heard rumors to the fact that they weigh a shade over 15# and you certainly wouldn't want to engage in any heavy lifting and strain yourself.

500 yds? I thought the guy wanted a long range elk gun. My mistake.

My long eared buddy pictured at the left dont even break a sweat carrying my 15 pound 338RUM. Then again this is not the topic of the thread.

thankfully I won't be packing my whole elk around every day from dark to dark, only the rifle, and if the rifle is 15 pounds....ouch, that added with tent and survival gear in my pack would be like packing part of an elk around all day every day....

Jeff

I know of a factory 338 Ultra mag that has over a 1000 rounds through it and is still shooting half MOA....

A 15lb rifle is a series of concessions I'd be unwilling to make,because I don't like to paint myself into corners.

Niche Tools lose their appeal fast.................

Amen to that...

Mark D

Dober, I could carry TWO Kimber Montana's easier and weighing less than the ONE mentioned above at 15lbs... one in 7 WSM and one in 30 WSM (grins).

15lbs sounds like a nightmare!!
I would rather carry my 10.5lb 340 and just deal with the recoil any day of the week...

340, I carried a 10 lb 338 for quite a while... I slowly went down in weight... 8.5, 8 and currently 7.25 lbs... now I'm contemplating a Kimber Little Sky in 308 at under 6.5lbs... that's about as light as I'd go but am dead certain no elk, at least out to 450 yards, could shrug off a proper hit from it.

Brad,
I agree on both points! I just have a soft spot for my 340.
I would not mind trying a Kimber Montana in 325WSM for elk-I would think it would have plenty of punch, shoots pretty flat, and nice and light(mostly,it just gives me another excuse to buy a new rifle) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey, I'll endorse that excuse <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />... !

..of course, a new Kimber "little sky" in 308 would be nice too.
I kind of like my Kimbers, even though it seems like it is in fashion in some quarters lately to bash 'em!
I have the 308 in the 84M, great rifle, but too nice of stock and finish to be a good mountain rifle,IMO.
There, now I have excuses for 2 new rifles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For an elk shoot it would do, for a elk hunt no tanks (at least in the steep/deep/ugly country where Brad and I clamber about).

Mark D

A Montana 7WSM would an Elk tippin' sumbitch...................

Don't tell my better half but I have one ordered for her as we speak.

Well I do have it ordered not sure she'll buy into the whole for her deal.

I won't have it set in time for this season but will get some yotes sorted out with it this winter and she has a late elk tag that will most likely be the first time it is shot in true anger.

Mark D

140 TSX here we come... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep between you and Stick you guys do a good job of spendign me monies.......

I am blaming it on you two so if I need your couch for a night or so...

Mark D

I was at Sportsman's Whorehouse,spied two Montana's in the rack and got a preemptive boner.

Was prick teased via 270 and 300WSM. If there'd been a 7 there,I'd of impressed the Wife(yet again).

Had to poke a GL3 Loomis in the cart,to get my mind right,after the letdown.....................(grin)

I kind of look at it as Viagra.......or was it those darn lil Barnes blue pills......too old to member anymo.

Mark D

I have one 20" 7-08,that shoots 140X's like they were 120's.

They stick and I let the aberration slide,though it ain't advertised.................

I won't tell... (grins).

Off to elk-ville... see you boys Monday.

120 or 140 as long as it is the TSX brand it makes no matter to me, I'll try me both and whichever perks the best will go along for the ride....

Dober

20-incher mentioned,thrives on the 140XLC.

Crazy thrives.......................

I am also kind of bettin on a yote or two playing catch with the 120 VM's this winter as well.

More than just a bit excited about this project, gotta see if I can learn myself to shoot one of those lightweight sob's......!

Mark D

It's all in the trigger.

I can like a 1 pounder on the light stuff(and everything else)..................

The trigger has always been key to me as well, kind of why I am a Jewell fanatic (at 1.5 lb).

On the other light weights I've used and abused it seemed like I had a bit better control via a bit more weight. I would use something in the 2.5 range, perhaps I need less control and a lighter pull to make things happen in the manner in which I want. It kind of seemed like I could pull a shot back if the sight pic wasn't perfect when dropping the hammer with a bit more trigger weight. Perhaps that is stupid and silly but that is just the way it seemed.

At any rate I can pretty well guarantee the "Runt" rifle as I've dubbed in advance will see about 1K rounds down the spout in 07 so I should have it sorted out.

Mark D

How do you guys like the stock triggers on the Kimbers?
I have never tried a Jewell. I like about 2.5pounds let-off on mine.

Kimbers adjust easily/nicely.

They'll Hunt..................

I forgot that!
Thank you

This year, like all others, we found the elkin the brush. Long range rifles are the answer to a problem that doesn't exist, and a tool for people who dont really elk hunt.

IMHO the more important aspect of LONG range elk hunting is being able to:
1. Accurately calulate/estimate/guesstimate the distance to the critter you want to shoot
2. CONSISTENTLY be able to shoot at those LONG distances accuately to insure a clean kill.
3. Practice constantly IN HUNTING CONDITIONS with your rifle/caliber/load of choice to meet No 2 requirement
4. KNOW your limitations and KNOW when not to shoot!

Just my 2 cents worth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

practice, practice!
I talk to (too many) "hunters" that brag about 500+ shots on elk, and when you ask them how many rounds they shoot through their elk rifles, reply with "oh, just a box or so"-what total BS!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Very few pack an LRF and a high percentage of those "500yd" pokes,are far more pedestrian in nature.

Let 'em bask in the illusion.....................

Hey Mark, My wife does not hunt, but all the rifles in the safe are hers. She just doesn't know it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by DaGriz

That's the point of a LRF and actually practicing. Dot's or turret's are important too...

DaGriz,



Are you one of "Most 'hunters'"? Also, what is your objective posting this on the Long Range fourm?

There you go Ringman. Are you happy now? Didn't realize a person can't post their opinions in postings, nor did I realize there was a "god" on here that I had to explain my postings to.

DaGriz,



You may be surprised, but I was already happy. I was just curious why you posted the post you deleted. Since you deleted it, you must have wondered the same thing I did after I asked the question.

You can post your opinion anywhere it is allowed. Occationally you will get a question about your post.

No one has posted anything on this thread about "god" until now. I am curious why you brought that up.

I deleted my post because it was evident you didn't like it and you act like a "god" by questioning and criticizing other peoples postings.
I don't really know why I even bother answering your postings. You have turned this thread into a personal attack on me.

DaGriz,



You flatter yourself. I asked you a couple questions so you could wonder aobut why you said what you did just like I did.

Ummmm . . . . . Yeah.

BMT

After reading the first two pages of this thread, the shoulder on this recoil-wimp is sore just thinking about these boomers, LOL. My 5.75# 6.5x06 with Vais brake won't qualify for this crowd as a long-range elk stomper. It recoils about like a 22/250 and it suits me just fine.

Continue however...these posts are highly entertaining.

What do you mean, Grant? This is serious stuff here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Serious on both ends, that I have no doubt <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Yep Grant, some take their hunting serious. Want to be able to penetrate, break bones, put em down, not have to pick and choose shots. Some get a chance once a year if that. Can't afford to hunt private land and be picky.

Though I wouldn't feel all that bad with a 6.5x06. But not for a real big gun. Course ya don't shoot the big guns that often. Not like we/you do in matches. So the big guns are not that bad. Just got done working some 338 RUM. Gets your attention, but not bad.

Have a good turkey day.

Jeff

Just shot a spike elk this morning at just a little over 500 yards with my .338 ultra mag first elk that I killed with it used a 210 tsx couldn�t tell the difference between it or my .300 Wby with 200 grain partitions.

Joecool-
Congrats on your elk!
How do you like your 338RUM?

I posted this on another forum, but maybe you'll enjoy it too.

Check out this sample preview about 3/4s down the page.

This is a 300WSM, of course its all custom, from the BAT to the trailer it's sitting on. 890 yards!~

http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/huntingvideos.htm

My old custom Mod 70 in 300 Win sends a 200 gr Nosler partition in front of 78.5 gr of H4831 (Speer No. 7 book) downrange at 3040 ft/sec. It also shoots 3 shot groups into about 5 inches at 300yds. It arrives at 500 yards with over 2200 ft lbs of energy left and only 36 inches low. I have never shot an elk over about 300 yards but I have killed a couple dozen and all with one shot. What more do you need?

Dots and or turrets, a LRF, plenty of practice (minimum of 500 rounds a year) in the 400-700 yds range and of course plenty of time to get out and hunt elk......grins

All guns/loads/shooters are equal to 300 yds, after 300 is where the above things I mentioned come into serious play.

Mark D

Mark, I agree with you on the turrents and more importantly on the practice. I took a antelope at 656 lazered yds. this fall for my first animal beyond 200yds. Practiced for over 2 years. We practice almost every week out to 1000yds. and are starting to go beyond that. What I found was if you practice and become proficient out to one thousand on a regular basis, the 656 yd shot did not seem long at all. A very comfortable confidence. My $.02.

I'm looking for a new long range rifle for goats & mule deer.
But would like it light weight. I'm looking at the 270 or 7mm
anybody know if there would be much weight difference?

I should think they would be almost identical in weight, as long as you are talking about the same rifle model.

Is there any custom builders out there that stand out above the rest ? I have looked at Christensen Arms with the composite barrels, to shave some weight. Is there any others in the 5.5lbs range? I also shoot a 338 for elk, I see they have 160 gr bullets
for it. Has anybody tried them for accuracy at high velocities?

That's an insane (and inane) notion. Between work, family, church, and other demands on my time, I consider myself lucky to get to a range for perhaps an hour or so every other month. I sure don't shoot 600 or more rounds at each of those sessions. Not even close. Yet, I have managed to cleanly and efficiently kill numerous antelope, deer, and even a few elk at ranges of 300 to 450+ yards. In fact, over the last 5 years or so, I've only killed one animal at under 250 yds. Most were at considerably longer distances.

You can bet that no armchair scolding from someone I've never met, don't know anything about, and who also doesn't know me nor has ever seen me shoot is going to convince me that I can't continue to accomplish similar "feats" in the future. And I am absolutely not an "expert" or "professional" marksman. I am lucky enough to have a dad who was a very successful competition rifle and pistol marksman in his younger days (shooting in the top 2% of the nation) and who taught me early on the correct fundamentals of shooting accurately. If anything, I'm a careful marksman who takes only shots that I am confident about.

Maybe you personally need 300+ rounds a month to be able to hit your intended target. But, don't assume that just because you do, everyone else must need to also.

Final 2 cents. More elk have been killed with a 30-30 with open sights than all of that giberish artillery combined. No, I never have had a 30-30 but some very skillful elk hunters do ok with them.

GPM



The Rock Creek / ABS barrels have proven to be light weight and accurate and shed heat instead of insulating. These barrels have taken game animals past 1300yds.

A light gun is difficult to get steady for a long range shot so you might want to save weight somewhere besides on the gun. After hunting for a week and finally seeing the animal you want at 700+ yds and not being able to connect because the gun is too light to get steady will be a heartbreaker.

No matter, it is your gun and your money. If you want a gunsmith who knows how to build a long range hunting rifle go back into this part of the forum and there is a story about a rock chuck at 2300 yards. Kirby Allen builds great long range guns. The other story about the shooting the metal plate is about the gunsmith Shawn Carlock who build great long range rifles also. Both understand the needs of long range hunters and can build you a great gun.

I have hunted and taken elk with 6 different cartridges and had good results (when I did my part) with all but one. All but this year's bag was taken under 300yds. This year, I used my custom built 8mm Rem Mag which weighs in at 9lbs scoped and slung. It was a lasered 478yds with a 200gr Nosler Accubond moving at 3210fps at the muzzle. Great setup, and terminal results! I may "have" to get another rlk rifle later on just to get another rifle, but this one is the best for me so far.

~ A hunter known for many years is fully pleased w/ his 700 BDL in 338 Win Mag.

-It has 1 in 10 twist, & some good Leupold glass.
Put a Hornady 225 Spire on top of a big load of 785, use BR primers & group about 2/3 moa all day.

*Has Superb Results all the way out to 400. Highly Probable IMO much further than that, but prooven at 400.

Just found this site while search-n Savage Levers in 358 Win. Feel right at home already.

BUFFALOBOB,

thanks for the help. I know what you mean about the weight.
tring to find a happy medium. Maybe the builders can give some
direction. Thanks again
GPM <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, if you have the money and want to shoot as far as possible, then a step or two closer to the .50 BMG, the .338 Lapua is it.
http://www.snipercentral.com/338.htm

The problem is that not only the rifle is expensive, but the scope you will need for it, as well as brass. Add the .338 Lazzeroni to this one.

The next step would be a .340, but again ammo and brass for it is expensive. You can add the .330 Dakota to the ones above, ant to this one too.

Further down the line you can find the poor man's .338 Lapua. It uses approximately the same amount of powder, but its brass is much cheaper. This one is the .338RUM, one that some hunters and shooters can't always handle its recoil, and end-up selling it for a fair price, much lower than what they paid for it.

Here is a picture of the LongBow, which Dakota builds in three different calibers, including the .338 Lapua.
http://www.snipercentral.com/longbow.htm

I'll add Greg Tannel and Chris Matthews to the good LR smiths.

gpm,

If you want a light weight rifle, try the Weatherby UltraLightweight in .270 Winchester caliber. I think it weighs something like 5.5 pounds with a 24" barrel.

Personally I do most of my hunting with that model but in 300 Weatherby, which weighs just a little more. I carry my rifle a lot more than I shoot it and can easily hit game at 300 yards with the appropriate rest.

Anyone sho shoots a "long range" rifle 300 times per month is going to be replacing barrels more than twice per year.

Lucznik

Shooting mid ranges is not all that complicated. It can be done mostly by lots of dryfiring at home here and there. Range work to verify zero's and what changes them and a good rangefinder.

The hard part is wind estimation. Thats what takes quite a bit of shooting in conditions. Out to 200 its rare that it effects much. At 300 if any wind, its always a consequence to be considered. Beyond that it can become very tricky. And even if you have computer or fired wind drift data, and a wind speed meter, there is often more involved.

I don't really care who your father was, or how he shot, it does not instill wind reading capability into your personal skill. I submit that if you are having lots of luck on those mid range plus a bit shots, you are either shooting in calm conditions or close to, or you have not been "unlucky" YET.

That all being said, I do not know you and therefore may be off base, but wind reading skills, consistantly good ones, take a bit of practice. I know it took me some years to get to the top 0.5 % of competitive shooters at the nationals.

Regards, Jeff

It's all about knowing your limitations (especially in the wind)--which, of course, does take a fair amount of practice time at a minimum. And even more than knowing them, being responsible about staying within them.

In my case, I wish I could practice many times as much as I do. The result is I'll pass on shots at game that I know I'd be able to make if I practiced more. The wind condition/distance threshhold where I feel confident in the shot is lower than it would be if I could practice more and get better.

I'm guessing it's a rare individual who practices so much he's so good he simply can't get any better. Honestly assessing the limitations of one's skill and equipment and staying within those limitations (even when you see big horns) is just as important as how high or low those limits are for an individual IMHO.

People should be encouraged to practice as much as possible, but I don't think that's a problem to those who read boards like this vs the "once a year shooters." Mostly because it's fun and anybody who enjoys it as much as we do won't be satisfied filling 1 or 2 tags a year as their only shooting. But the great thing about hunting is you never have to take the shot.

Yeah, that's the best part about living in Wyoming... we never get any wind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I don't believe in luck. I believe in being careful and taking only shots I know I can make. In my (admittedly, relatively short) 22 years of hunting I have yet to lose any animal that I have shot. If you choose to call this "luck," so be it.



Probably a reasonable assumption.

You must use a faster gunsmith than me if you can get rebarreled twice a year <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What about a 190Gr Hornady PSP out of a good old .308, 46 in. of drop @ 500 yds 2700 ft/s MV should do the trick.

190 at 2,700?

Regardless, not much velocity out at 500 to open that projectile like I'd want. Aimed right would no doubt do the deed tho...

I use Greg's services for the largest percentage of work I have done. Primarly because he is local, well, somewhat local.