Concerning rifles and shooting define the subject in your opinion!

As I understand it:
Accuracy is putting a bullet hole in the exact spot you intend to hit with a bullet.

Precision is the ability to align sights, squeeze the trigger and have bullets land in close proximity.

When Precision is combined with Accuracy, Competency is the result.

Junebug nailed it...

Accuracy is left up to who's behind the butt plate!

Exactly, that individual is responsible for choosing (very wisely) the correct optic, load, trigger and platform he uses. With this being said, there are far more accurate platforms than i've seen humans. Then again, there are some humans that are capable of far better accuracy, but don't know how to fine tune their platform... Hence, you are only as good as your equipment... Choose that chidt wisely...

I hold a different definition that that in the photo shown by BSA1917

I work in elecrtical engineering where precision and accuracy can have a meaning that is similar, but not necessarily identical, to that photo shown.

but I spend my paycheck and free time shooting, where I feel the meanings are different.

in shooting. "Accuracy" means "group size", so upper right and lower right are both "accurate". Upper right, however is not "zeroed". (in the EE world we would call that "calibrated" or the upper right is "not tuned" or "out of adjustment". The two right side figures are "repeatable", the two left figures, less so.)

"Precise", to me means to step size to which you can measure or calibrate or zero the gun, so a target scope with 1/8moa clicks has more "precise" adjustments than the 1moa clicks on an M1 rear sight.

I almost always use the word "accurate" to describe the group size of the gun, or the shooter's ability to shoot it.

I use the term "precision" as a word to group together the other shooting sports that are not "practical" (for "practical" I often use the word "action") The "precision" shooting sports are scored by group size, or rather closeness of shots to the center, in a given time. The "action" shooting sports are scored by time or speed on given target.

by that definition, "Precision" is NRA/CMP/Olympic rifle and pistol and a few other things, even hit/miss sports like silhouette. Whereas "action" is IDPA, 3-gun, IPSC, ICORE I think, etc....

Recently one magazine, the Rifleman I think, had an article where they put the NRA/CMP/Olympic rifle and pistol type events in a category they called "classic" and used "precision" for PRS and things like that. I forge if they used the word "action" or "practical" for the speed shooting.

Performing well in a "precision" shooting sport requires one's rifle or pistol to be both "accurate" and "zeroed".

Poole

Is this the Bill Poole assigned to the MTU at Benning?? On second thought I think that was Tommy Poole!

Potato-pototo. One shot one kill.

In simple terms to me anyways

accuracy is what the rifle is capable of.

Precision is what the shooter is capable of.

I MIGHT HAVE TO AGREE WITH MONTANACREEK !..... AND DOLLARSHORT.... AND BILL POOL

It’s pretty simple. Precision is putting the bullet in the same hole every time. Accuracy is putting the bullet in the intended POI.

Thank you. But it'll still go on for about 10 more pages, with multiple target photos.

Jordan Smith has it correct!

This is the target I use all the way back to wherever I'm shooting from.

AR500 by .com/photos/61286670@N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]

I am not satisfied to just hit anywhere on the AR500 plate...rather I am annal about getting the first shot in the center and I have taught all of my children and grandchildren that this is their goal whether they wish to shoot in formal competition or just on their own.

This is my rifle:

6547 by .com/photos/61286670@N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]

It was built by Jon Beanland with PRECISION! It will literally shoot a 'ragged hole' at 100 yards by a competent shooter!

I shot these eight rounds recently from 900 yards which I covered with the palm of my hand but I missed the wind call a bit because the group is not centered so in my opinion I was NOT ACCURATE in placing all my shots where I wished them to go!

Untitled by .com/photos/61286670@N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]

I'm with Jordan.

Different things, but you need both to succeed.

That's how I see it......

Accuracy, meaning groups, is the universal language. One of the first questions on a gun sale is "How does it shoot?" Nobody answers "Really precise!" WTF would that mean?

In point blank 100/200 yard Benchrest shooting, group size, (accuracy) is the ultimate goal, the smaller the better, no such thing as too small. Doesn't matter where on the target you print your group, as long as it's inside the border, & preferably not dead center, as it obliterates your aiming point. So absolute precision does not come into play.

In Hunter Benchrest, you have 5 separate bullseyes to shoot, one shot at each, the goal, hopefully, is to hit dead center in the ten ring and also hit the 1/8" dot in the middle, for a 50 with 5X's score. So not only do you need ultimate accuracy, but the precision to place each shot in the middle of each bull.

In 600/1000 yard Benchrest shooting, the goal is to shoot the smallest group, in the middle of the target, which allows you to score the most points possible. Each relay has a group and score winner, you can't win both, group takes precedence. Accuracy is still needed to shoot small groups at distance, hopefully to have the precision to place them in the middle.

Precision Rifle Series isn't dependent on balls out accuracy, as the 3 examples above, but more on the precision aspect to reliably hit the targets every shot.

Groups out in the 5 ring IMO is not accuracy! Putting all shots in the middle of the 10 ring is accuracy!

Despite incorrect usage by some, the terms "precision" and "accuracy" have actual scientific definitions and meanings. "Precision" refers to the level of repeatability from measurement to measurement (or in this case, shot to shot), and accuracy refers to the variation between the measured value and the true value (or in this case, the POI versus the intended POI).

I think it was Steelhead that said once when it comes to shooting "Do a group to find a load but I'm more interested in hitting stuff. Can I put round 1 into what I want"

You find the group the rifle likes best, then adjust scope for POI.

The secret for getting that one shot where you want it, is a rifle that puts them near the same hole every time, then you and the rifle being able to deliver the bullet to that spot.

I prefer being a bigger variable than the rifle, at least half the equation is predictable....

DF

You can't have precision without accuracy. And you can't prove accuracy without precision.

But I'm not a long range hunter in the sense that the term implies today. For me, and my choice in rifle, wind is too much of a variable and too unpredictable in a wild setting to overcome at extreme ranges on live game.
It'd take a long heavy rifle shooting a fast super high bc bullet before I'd even consider preparing to take that shot. A rifle that I don't want to carry in a round that would take a great deal of time and dedication to become proficient enough with in varrying terrains and wind conditions.

My limits are mostly within mpbr, or a little over on a calm day. And my rifle choice means that much over 300 yards is pushing the envelope for my medium game hunting purposes. Maybe 400 in perfect conditions.
At these ranges, from a field position, accuracy and precision aren't out of the realm in this lightweight rifle with it's relatively low power and flat trajectory that make shooting easier.

Although I would like to practice at longer ranges just for the fun of it. Thinkin if I were to add a rifle or two to the collection I'd do it with this in mind.
An RAR-P .223 AI'd in a Boyds stock to get into the game? And one of them Super Chickens on top.
Down the road, something heavier. With more thump on steel. A long range target rig in the guise of an old school blued and walnut high comb long heavy barreled hunting rifle in a gentle shooting Swede or fast twist 6BR.
Then...maybe...with enough practice...utilizing these mild mannered tools...I could begin to combine these two elusive qualities at longer ranges.

"You can't have precision without accuracy. "

Sure you can, and we've all seen it. A rifle that shoots bughole groups but nowhere near the point of aim, e.g., a foot high and to the right. That's the definition of precision without accuracy.

You mean like when Opie was tryin to win an electric razor for Andy and the carnies handed him a rifle with bent sights?

Well I still think you got it backwards, to some degree of accuracy.. But I unsterstand you got eight pages to go to meet your goal.
Your methodology is consistently inprecise.

Eight pages to go?

I think you're a day late.

So many acronyms for words these days that I'm lost.

Also - what's a Super Chicken? '78 Firebird? One of my buddies had one with a 400, he never could understand why I always blew him away in my '68 340 eight days a week.

He was all over the place, while I had consistent, repeatable launches.

Could that be the scientific definition of precision vs accuracy as Jordan eloquently outlined a few posts above?

Or could precision vs accuracy actually be a moot point for rifles, and be dependent on the operator?

Mopar or no car!

Yeah. Kinda the same thing. It's like a muscle scope with fancy reticle, a big mag wheel on the top and side, and a big bird on the other side.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

What bsa illustrated above.

Precision is a rifle that will shoot 5 shots touching 3 times a month but also shoots 1.5 moa on lots of other days and point of impact may change noticeably. This rifle is often said to be a one hole rifle, well; because it did shoot them into one hole three times that month

Accuracy is a rifle that shoots around 1moa every day of the week, won't put 5 touching very often but never opens up to 1.5 moa and point of impact never changes. At the end of the month it always prints a smaller overall group but is unnoticed by the man who is impressed with 3 one hole groups

Trystan

This is a very precision built rifle as this is an 8 round group from 900 yards:

IMG_2029 by .com/photos/61286670@N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]

But I wasn't accurate shooting it because the POIs are not in the middle!! The first two rounds were 'pressure loads' which I shot into the ground.

From my seat, 'precision' is just a recent marketing buzzword. It is used to sell rifles, scopes, bipods, bases, rings, triggers, ammo, etc, etc, intended to make for a more accurate rifle.

Nice shooting sharpsman. One of the reasons I shoot a 2" steel plate at 400 yards consistently, is because I like precision and accuracy. If you had a smaller plate, it would force you to try harder...

While this may be the absolute definitions of the two, nobody mentions, talks about, or givesashit about correct usage of the term "precision".

As I said above, accuracy is the universal language, group size, and hitting your target, one and the same, to the vast majority of shooters.



Amen!

Hey MM, been a good long while about a decade on the 'Hide if i recall since I saw your pretty Krylon'd rigs & 208gr+ projectiles banging on steel beyond what most millennial Haji beard wannabes think a .308 is capable of.

You & yours doing well?

I agree. These are not new terms or words, nor do they need to be twisted by common opinions or beliefs.

precision = repeatability (group size)

accuracy = performance against the known standard (POI vs POA)

All good here, thanks!

I don't post much on the 'Hide these days, but still read a little, and check out the Motivational Pictures thread at Maggies Drawers....grin

I'm still shooting the 308 and 30-06, nothing much new in my LR game.

Believe it or not, I've taken an interest in traditional archery lately, of all things. I love it.

Maggies Drawers...hah :-)

Stay safe.

You too.

Bughole groups are great.

"A foot high & to the right" is just someone too lazy to check the mounts and/or adjust for elevation & azimuth.

My wife and I were electrical engineers. She designed calibrators for Fluke. If I say anything about accuracy it is wrong.

My eye doctor mixes up accuracy and precision when talking about eye pressure machines....I can feel smarter than her.

Or someone who just mounted a new scope on their rifle and is in the process of sighting it in.

Can't remember the last time I adjusted azimuth.