My neighbor (age 86) is at the point of downsizing and asked my help in giving him an idea of what his (actually his wife's) Brown Precision rifle would likely sell for. A bit of background. He owned the Western Sport Shop in Santa Rosa, Ca. and sold a number of Brown Precision rifles. He had one built for himself (on a tang safety Ruger 77) and this one.

This is built on an early 1980s Remington Mohawk 600 action (A serial number). The barrel is 20" long and measures .529 at the muzzle. It weighs 6.5 lbs with the Buehler one piece scope mount and the Zeiss Diatal-C 4 x 32 scope. LOP is 13.5 and the trigger pull is 3 lbs. It has had less than 20 shots fired. The stock has some dings and handling marks, the metal finish is very good. The scope's eye piece has a couple of scratches, but they don't seem to impair its functionality
Any input would be appreciated.

I'd say it's worth $700-$900 w/o the scope. I have no idea what the scope is worth, but you'd likely get more by separating them.

If I spotted just the gun on the rack for 1k, I'd not be able to get my wallet open fast enough.

Same.... that’s a running around rifle if I ever saw one.

Check eBay for scope value. I once had one of those, good scopes.

DF

BP 2020 pricing:



If Kevlar with graphite add to above:

Scope is worth $350, maybe $400 for the right buyer.

Exactly.

Yeah, Brown's been over-charging for a long time.

Looks like they're charging their customers $1300.00 for a Remington 700 action. That's called ripping people off.

Factory Rem 700’s going for that and more now. I know this isn’t a 700, but do the rear screw conversion, and it’s about the same. This one is $1200 for just the rifle. Easy.

ETA: assuming the 600 action has the same small rear screw as the Model 7’s. It’s been awhile since I’ve had either.

if that was sitting on the rack for 1,500 i'd let let it stay there

if it was 1,200 it'd be fondled.

1,000 it's coming home no question.

If it were a pre 64 model 70 in a Brown PoundR, it would have went home with me. Being it was a remington of any model, it would have sat on the shelf indefinitely...

Just picked up a used but not abused Brown custom high country 700 rem action, in 280 rem last month. Paid between $1500-1750 with a leupold vx3 2.5-8 on it.

If anyone here had bought that rifle new,
what would you let it go for today if you
weren't desperate for money ?



Interesting, do you also consider a Penrod or
Echols syn. rifle as over-charging ?

I sold one on eBay a few years ago for $400. This one just sold on eBay for $490. Two others on line were sold, no price mentioned.

They're good solid scopes and usually sell quickly when offered.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Scope-Diatal-C-4x32-/154292577669

DF

Brown charges his customers $1300 for a Rem 700 action which can be bought from Brownells for $400 (or at least it used to be so). The Echols has a lot of custom work, including a custom stainless mag box and a heavily reworked action. Does Brown offer any remotely similar custom work on a Rem 700 action? I don't think so. But since you asked, yes, I think the Echols Legend is way over-priced. The components only cost about $1500-1600. $14,000 for a fiberglass stocked rifle is ridiculous. But there is a sucker born every minute and kudos to Echols for figuring that out. It's hardly his fault people think a $3500 rifle is worth $14,000. He's charging what the market will bear.

D’Arcy make a superb product. His marketing is probably even better.

Maybe better than Kenny Jarrett’s, based on the prices he gets. Not trying to leave anyone out of the top tier, there are others.

But people pay, more power to top end suppliers. Their customers seem pleased. I’m happy for both buyers and sellers.

DF

I would be interested if your friend decides to sell the gun.

$5995 for a remington actioned rifle.i cant believe hes in buisness.ever if it was benchrest trued and bolt sleeved it would be a joke.

$5995 for a remington actioned rifle.i cant believe hes in buisness.ever if it was benchrest trued and bolt sleeved it would be a joke.

Which smiths do you know of that build M70 synthetics to Echols standards and selling them
for $3500..?




Why are you comparing what a shop does for
$5k vs $15 k..?

None I’d wanna use I’d bet.

Which smiths do you know of that build M70 synthetics to Echols standards and selling them
for $3500..?


By Echols standards, you mean tweaks to the action and the stainless steel mag box? It doesn't require $10-12k to do that. Lots of 'smiths surface grind an action and for $14k you can get a nice piece of walnut, nice checkering and metal engraving. Hell, for $3500 you can get a brand new, CNC machined Granite Mountain with integral square bridges that put the finest re-worked Whinny to shame and that still leaves $10 grand for a nice wood stock, barrel and bluing! And lots and lots of 'smiths are using more precise chambering methods than Echols. For example, pretty sure Echols doesn't use range rods in his chambering.

Look, I'm not criticizing Echols. He's charging what the market will bear. If you're one of those who is paying $14,000 for a $400 Japanese-made Whinny action and a McMillan stock and you're happy, great. Knock yourself out! I'm just saying you can do a lot better (or every bit as good) for 1/3 as much, or less. Hell, I could have a HVA small ring Mauser (much better steel), have a 3-pos safety installed, lightened firing pin, stronger spring, new bolt handle, bushed firing pin hole, stoned action, surface ground, Echols stock, square bridges welded on and the finest barrel and bluing for $4-5k easily and have it balance on the front action screw and shoot every bit as well (if not better) than a Legend.

Darcy puts alot of man hours into his excellent product including many of his own parts. His product includes range testing. Potential clients include wealthy upper class hunters, and nothing wrong with that.

Mule Deer did an excellent write up on the Echols Legend in Rifle magazine long ago. vvvv


Would I buy an Echols Legend? No, I prefer lighter rifles and put money saved into other areas of my life. I drive a Toyota too if that means anything.

They all offer what Echols offers for only
$3500... How certain are you ?

How much clear profit do you think Echols & Co.
make on a Legend?

Imo, it would be a steep slope for most 'smith's to duplicate and match Darcy's product.

See my post above.

The only Gre-Tan M70 I've seen had Leupld rings/bases
and factory bottom metal.

I don't know of Echols producing Legends like that.
Tarquin needs to cite some better examples.

After spending some time in D'Arcy's shop with him I can tell you he likely makes less per hour than your auto mechanic, I like rifles more than cars.....

Mark Penrod builds an excellent custom syn Win 70 but not to the same level as Echols but still a great choice.

A Penrod Syn.M70 stil ain't anywhere near the
price Tarq. would pay....and why would he when
he knows so many smiths that can build an M70
equal to a Legend in everyway, for $3500.

Very steep I believe. And still make enough to pay for supper.

A Simillion or Weaver aren’t exactly cheap either these days either by the time it’s said and done.

I don't need a stainless, CNC mag box or a surface ground and tweaked action at the cost of $14,000 to shoot bug holes at 500 yards. That can be done just as well, if not better for much, much less money There is absolutely nothing special about a current production Model 70.
In fact, it's exactly the opposite: it has to be heavily tweaked just to make it something you'd even begin to want on a semi-custom rifle. But again, if that's what excites you, knock yourself out.

Nope. Totally agree. A plain old 750 dollar Tikka will suffice if that’s what you’re after. Different strokes for different folks.

First you complained about Brown Precision
not working over an action like Echols does
now you say you don't need it done anyway ..

Apart from the (absurd) fact you were trying to
compare $5k vs $15k rifle ..

One thing to keep in mind is some folks from all walks of life want or prefer something that is custom or unique whether its your home, auto or whatever. Is it needed? Not usually, it just makes for a more satisfying experience for some...

Some older folks (and younger) might have disposable income and 13-14k is nothing to them. Their IRAs or whatever might fluctuate that much in just a day.

As a diy public land hunter I used to think guided hunters were insane, no way would I plunk down that much $$ for hunting the same ground. But I met alot of such folks the last 2yrs hunting while hunting the same public ground and realized it's all irrelevant.

We can't take life's experiences with us when it's time to go. Buy what you can afford and dance with who you bring. You only have to please yourself.

Well said MtnHtr. Pretty well put.

Not what I said at all. Both products are over-priced for what they give you.

I'll ask the question again:

why are you comparing the work performed on
$5k vs $15k rifle ..?

What point are you trying to make?

And I'll tell you again. I'm not comparing the two. Both are overpriced for what they give you.

Evidently you don't know everything that goes into
a Legend.

But your words clearly did compare the two.
no matter how much you now choose to deny it.

Some folks dont consider any Mauser worth your $13,500
so to them you are one of those 'suckers born every minute'
that you mentioned.

As for GMA actions, there are smiths that consider
them somewhat unfinished and charge like 2k to go
over and fine them up.

And I'll tell you again. I'm not comparing the two. Both are overpriced for what they give you.

Yes, I do. There is nothing that goes into it that justifies $14,000 for a Winchester production action and a McMillan fiberglass stock. NOTHING! People extol the balance as if balancing on the front action screw is magic. They worship the stock. Hell, you can buy one from D'Arcy himself (and McMillan too, I think) for what, $600? So Echols stones the raceways, installs a CNC machined mag box, tweaks the trigger, jewels the bolt, laps the lugs, surface grinds the action. That is magic? What else is there? Does he true the action? Fine. At most that costs a few hundred. Don't you get it that most (if not all) of what he does is fix poor factory tolerances in the Winchester that don't make the rifle one iota more functional, accurate or reliable? Is the Winchester steel something special? No. Are the tolerances great? No, they're terrible. You want a really good CRF action--something that truly is a work of art? You can get a Granite Mountain for $3500 and with integral double square bridges. Add a McMillan stock for $600 and Kreiger barrel for $400, thread chamber and crown for $300-$500 (with very nice blueing from Glenrock Blue) for a total price of around $5000. It doesn't take another nine grand to pillar bed the damn thing.

Back to my original point: good for Echols for figuirng out he can massively overcharge and get paid for it. Don't be angry at me for pointing out you're not a very savvy consumer if you own one. I would take a Borden custom rifle for $5100 any day over a Echols for $14,000. It's just pure idiocy to spend that kind of money on a Winchester actioned, McMillan stocked rifle because at the end of the day it's still a Winchester and a McMillan. For $14,000 I can have an impeccably made Borden with tight tolerances from the factory and unmatched accuracy and still have nine grand left over for first class optics and a guided mule deer hunt. It's a no-brainer.

You claim to know many smiths that build the
equal of a Legend for $3500 ..but would rather
pay 5k for a Remington clone.




its clear from your post that you still DONT
know everything that goes into a Legend.

Then why don't you tell me and when you're done I'll explain to you why it is a complete waste of money.

Legend may be a waste of money to you
just like a walnut engraved GMA is a
waste of money to others...but here
you are talking up its value for money
at $13,500.

That's an insane totally unjustifiable amount
for many folk.

Doesn’t matter anyhow since D’Arcy isn’t using Winchesters anymore for his guns since he has his own action to build rifles with.

It isn’t worth arguing over anyhow. Rifles are like trucks, we all like different ones for different reasons.

It most assuredly does matter because if he is using his own action, then the price should fall by more than two-thirds. Has it? The finest made CNC produced modern bolt action should not retail for more than $1500. D'Arcy charges about $11-12,000 to turn a sow's ear Winchester into his alleged silk purse reworked action. A new, CNC produced action of his own should reduce the cost of the action to no more than $1500 and therefore, the cost of a finished rifle to around $3-$4000. Has that happened? And you can bet it won't. Much easier to rip people off than tell them the truth, especially when they're so compliant!

From Echols's web site. Here is what he does to an action:

Legend Standard Sporter

1. The heart of our Legend Rifle begins with a Winchester Model 70 action made from either Chrome–Moly or Stainless Steel. Once inspected these actions are extensively refined and modified.

2. The receiver threads are re-machined to 1.032 X 16 TPI. The recoil lug seats, recoil lugs, receiver face and bolt face are re-machined and trued to remove any dimensional run out from the factory. The recoil lugs and lug seats are then lapped to remove any machine marks. A select grade chrome-moly or stainless steel barrel is then fit and chambered to the action. Our chambering procedures assure that maximum accuracy potential of the barreled action is realized. For the past 15 years the most popular chambering’s for the Standard Legend’s have been the following: The 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum and thirdly the 300 H&H Magnum. These three cartridges have proven time and time again their effectiveness around the world when use for the smaller Antelopes up to and including the Elands and larger Moose species. The international hunter is well served with these three cartridges. I keep an inventory of these barrels in stock at all times and have these barrels contoured into specific weights and lengths to further enhance the rifles final balance.

3. The underside of the action is re-machined to create a uniform bedding platform and to accept a proprietary Echols & Co. heat-treated, stainless steel magazine box and follower assembly. Our magazine assemblies are cartridge specific and allow our magnum magazine box to hold one additional belted magnum round, giving the shooter a total of five rounds instead of the usual four. This feature alone is almost unheard of in any currently available factory or custom produced firearm. All of our Legends will be fit with our Echols & Co. floor-plate and trigger bow assembly.

4. The receiver’s feed-ramp and guide rails are then modified to assure reliable cartridge feeding. Our rifles have an established reputation for flawless reliability.

5. The ejection port is lengthened to allow easy access to magazine to permit ease in loading. A spring steel extractor replaces the factory extractor and is properly fit to fully utilize the advantages of the claw extractor system.

6. The trigger, ejector, and bolt stop are re-pinned to remove all undesirable looseness or play. The sear engagement surfaces are machined to guarantee a consistent, crisp trigger pull set at 3 lbs. The safety wing and bolt lock engagement is refined to ensure smooth and positive manipulation of the safety. The factory sleeved bolt handle is then pinned and soldered to the main bolt body to prevent any separation between the bolt handle and bolt body permanently.

Very standard stuff, especially the truing operations. We know that the component cost for an Echols legend is around $1500 ($500 for the Winchester action, $400 for a Krieger barrel, $600 for the legend stock and maybe $50 bucks for the CNC machined mag box). Let's add on a few hundred for the small parts and consumables. That gives a total materials cost of around $1700.00. The current price for a Legend is $15000.00. That means Echols is charging you $13,300.00 to true the action, thread chamber and crown the barrel, repin the trigger and bolt stop and polish the feed ramp, blue everything and assemble and then bed the barreled action. A skilled machinist using the trueing jig invented by Greg Tannel can completely remachine the critical surfaces of an action (threads, lug abutments, bolt face and bolt lugs) in 2-3 hours. Let's add 3 more hours for surface grinding the entire action and then let's add 4 hours to thread, chamber and crown the barrel. Let's ad 2 more hours to repin the action and 3 hours for blueing. That is 15 hours to completely rebuild the action, chamber and rifle and blue it. So Echols is charging just south of $900 an hour for work other skilled smiths charge $100 an hour for and even less. No thanks!

A few posts back you recommended we should
pay $3,500 for a GMA. ..wouldn't that be ripping
customers off with your approval ?




Call him and ask if your numbers are true.

Where did I ever state or imply my approval was necessary? That's just silly. The Granite Mountain is made with tight tolerances built-in and is a work of art. Echols charges about $10k to try to turn a Winchester action into something comparable to a Granite Arms action (which can be had for $3500) and even then the Echols reworked action isn't comparable because the GA has double-square bridges. A Borden action can be had for what, $1200? A Defiance controlled round fee is what, $1500? You can get a flat gorgeous rifle from Bansners with CRF for less than $7000. I could go on and on but my point remains the same, $10,000-11,000 for a reworked Winchester action is beyond ridiculous. But again, kudos to Echols if he can convince people to open up their wallets for products that can be had for less than a third of what he charges. Kudos to him for figuring out people are suckers for a high price!

its far from perfect , and they dont always feed that
well out of the box when barreled up ..some smiths
charge like 2K to get them up to best spec. Feed
and finish wise.




Not everybody wants DSB, folks order Legends
coz they want D'Arcy's proprietary fixed scope
mount system.




So you are ok with a bare Rem clone at $1200
+ cost of magbox, bottom metal, trigger, etc.

yet think the more complex manufacture of
a complete custom grade Mauser action
should cost only $1500 ?...LoL..

No dummy. Granite Arms does it for $3500. Borden does CRF for less than $1500 and Bansners does CRF for lessn than a thou (if they are still producing the Brown 704 action)

So GMA is ripping-off customers big time ?

No, because their action is Mauser-style CRF. It's pricey, but even they are not charging Echols prices---for a schitty Winny!

Tarq. try coming to terms with your
contradictions and foolish denials.

You say one thing then back-flip and
then pretend it didn't happen.

What a hijacked thread! Lols

Older article. Please keep in mind Darcy Echols is considered one of the top riflesmiths in the world and has been building/selling his Legend close to 20yrs or more.

www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/worlds-greatest-hunting-rifle-darcy-echols-legend-review/83394

If you ever been to a hunting show as a vendor you will have an idea of who Darcy builds his rifle for. And there are guides who use them as well. And like many fine commodities an Echols Legend will hold its value.

Not all us can afford to own and drive a Ferrari to work but there are those that can.

Tarquin is suggesting one man can turn out
a Legend every two days of man hrs at massive
profit.

He's made so much of a goose of himself
and sadly doesn't know when to stop.

Contradictions, denials , unsubstantiated claims
are his specialty in trying to make his case.

[quote=Starman]Tarquin is suggesting one man can turn out
a Legend every two days of man hrs at massive
profit.

He's made so much of a goose of himself
and sadly doesn't know when to stop.

Contradictions, denials , unsubstantiated claims
are his specialty in trying to make his case.

/quote]

I'm sorry you've been paying $15,000 for $5,000 files, but the solution isn't to shoot the messenger!

No, but I think he can turn out a couple a week between he and his helper!

Your wonky stories keep changing ..

Orig. you stated you had many smiths who
can build a true Legend grade M70 at $3500

Hilarious that when Tarq. doubles down on his
BS he can't even keep the story straight.




So your story changes yet again ..

You lie as easily as you roll out of bed in the morning! How much money D'arcy snooker you out of?

Your changing story posts are there for
everybody to see and you still deny it ?

So is it $3500 or $5000...?

You can't comprehend simple English either! That explains how easy it was for D'Arcy to empty your savings account! LIfe must be very hard for you.

Answer the damn question! How much money D'arcy take you for? How many rifles!

Tarquin from the house of shifting sands.

He thinks if he buries his BS in flat denial
its all OK.

Poor Star Child. He's spent a fortune on Echols rifles, only to learn he could have gotten the same product for a third the price! Too funny!

I've dealt with D'Arcy, bought a Legend stock from him He was generous with his time, very nice and helpful, and I wasn't spending big bucks. I got the feeling he was as nice to me as he would be to a big client plopping down $15K. He does spend a lot of time building, tweaking and load developing his top end rifles.

There are people who have no problems spending that kinda money, aren't Loony types, want a top end, very accurate rifle without all the work needed to make that happen.

We Loonies love to do all that stuff ourselves. Everyone isn't like us (probably a good thing).

I know a guy who loves Kenny Jarrett rifles, doesn't mind paying the price, has several. He's self made in the fast food business, amassed over $100 mil during his 30 yr career, recently cashed out. He'd rather pay Kenny $10K or whatever, than spend time reloading and working up loads. Evidently his time is worth more than ours and was put to more productive use.

Kenny loads his ammo, this dude makes money. Good trade off... Bud is happy, I'm sure Kenny is happy.

It's not appropriate for us to get our drawers in a wad over someone building high end rifles and charging accordingly.

If there wasn't a market, there wouldn't be these suppliers.

DF

Folks who own Legends are typically far from
poor and still have plenty left over ..yet Tarq. came
here kicking the tires of a 30+ year old Rem build.

How Tarq.gets so engaged and judgemental about
how other people spend their money is bonkers.




He made his $100m but Tarquin types would
like to advise them on how to spend it.

And the thing about the Jarrett is that it is a proprietary three-lug custom action and it's still $7000 less than a Legend! You just proved my point dumbass! I can buy a beautiful, custom, 3-lug action with a 60 degree bolt throw from Kenny for half the price of a reworked Echols Winny! WTF?

Here you go Star Child: Half the price of a reworked Winny and far superior! Thank you for proving my point!

https://www.jarrettrifles.com/receiver-barrels.html

So Tarquin is still hung up and obsessed with
with how wealthy strangers spend their money ..TFF

Anyone who don't agree with him is a sucker
and dumbass.

You're wealthy? Yeah. Right! LMAO Keep projecting Star Child!

I don't have your poor judgemental attitude
or you propensity to live in denial.

Why are you so concerned about other people's
consumer spending and lifestyles ?

It really bothers you that other people know you're stupid, doesn't it? Well the solution is very simple: stop shouting it from the rooftops!

Again,
Why are you so concerned about other people's
consumer spending and lifestyles ?

I really could care less, but the entertainment value of watching someone try to defend spending 2-3 times what is necessary for a hunting rifle is priceless. Worth every penny. It's not often you see someone double-down on stupid in print!

What is the necessary amount someone needs
to spend on a hunting rifle?

are you saying it's $5000.?

Why do you give a flying ph---k what a complete stranger thinks of your financial decisions? Seriously? Why do you care one iota what I think?

“2-3 times what is necessary for a hunting rifle”

Christ, you can buy a RAR for 1/30th the cost and fill an Ark.

You don’t understand why someone would buy a Bentley when a Mercedes is perfectly good.

We get it.

Preferences and bank accounts differ.

Let it go already.

That's a cool little rifle Logger!

My nephew has hunted the last two seasons with the 7mm-08 I got from you a few years ago. Title to the rifle keeps popping up on his Christmas list. I'm waiting for him to get his first buck with it. Grin.

He cant let it go , its become very personal
to him how others spend their money and
that they ain't as 'smart' as him. He thinks
calling others dumb makes him smarter.

You know when personal attacks are the
persistent tactic, they are desperate and
got nothing.

Tarq. should go to SCI with his genius and
tell those "dumb wealthy folks" hes got better
ways for them To spend their earned dollars.

Kettle, meet pot!

Tarq. crashed and burned some posts ago ..
but his ego blinds him to the fact.

All very avoidable by simply thinking before
posting crap that comes back to bite you.

this was hilarious ...

Guys, where is all the Christian charity and brotherly love the Fire is so well known for...?



DF