Rick,
I have done much the same thing for years, Other than I use a block of parafin canning wax to plug the cases. I just jam the case in the block of wax and pull it out, trim the wax flush with the case mouth.
AS A CAUTION: I ALWAYS check the bore between shots to insure there is no bore obstruction. I'd sure hate to have a bulged or split barrel because of my negligence....
GH
I have always used Unique for this with cream of wheat and Crisco to seal
I just fireformed 40 pieces of 30BR brass. I use an old 6ppc barrel. I ran a .300 reamer down the bore about 3". This allowed me to run my 30BR reamer into the 6mm barrel. I rebated the rims on my 6BR Lapua brass inorder that it would work with my ppc bolt face. I load mine to the top of the shoulder with Bullseye and use wax to plug the neck. I fireform and then turn the necks. I can now see that I can use about any size barrel as a fireforming barrel. JUST DO NOT USE A BULLET WHILE DOING IT THIS WAY!!!
Butch
Guess I've been doing it wrong by flinging bullets at targets and critters to make my AI brass.... (grin)
Guess I've been doing it wrong by flinging bullets at targets and critters to make my AI brass.... (grin)
Me too.........
Hello JPro and badger. No, you weren't doing anything wrong. But if you do it as described by many above you will save a bunch of cash(that's good), save needless rounds fired in your expensive barrel and......you can do it in your garage! Regards, Rick.
An Ackley is different than a wildcat. Forming the Ackley is almost like shooting a factory round. Fireforming most wildcats is a completely different beast.
Butch
Guess I've been doing it wrong by flinging bullets at targets and critters to make my AI brass.... (grin)
Me too.........
Me three....never had a Cat or AI yet that I couldn't hunt and or do some very good target work wilst fire forming...
Dober
Hello JPro and badger. No, you weren't doing anything wrong. But if you do it as described by many above you will save a bunch of cash(that's good), save needless rounds fired in your expensive barrel and......you can do it in your garage! Regards, Rick.
I can see some instances where the cream of wheat process may be handy, such as needing some formed brass in a hurry or being short on useable bullets for fireforming. Some see making brass as an excuse to go shoot more. I was just picking at you....
An Ackley is different than a wildcat. Forming the Ackley is almost like shooting a factory round. Fireforming most wildcats is a completely different beast.
Butch
Please elaborate, as I'm not quite following you. A catridge case is sized in a die, be it a 30-06 case in a 30-06 die, a 30-06AI die, or a 6.5-06AI die. A shoulder is placed where appropriate for headspace, be it a wildcat, an Ackley, or a boring old factory chamber. The appropriate bullet/powder/primer are installed, the gun goes bang, and you have a nicely formed case for your chamber. Maybe it is a 6mm Dasher, a 250AI, a 338 Edge, or a plain-jane 308win, but the process should be the same. Maybe I'm missing something.....
I did the cream of wheat thing. It makes a big mess is the tube. I went to shoting paper or someing to fire from my 22-250 AI it is alot more fun seeing what you are hitting. You can kill things when you are fire froming. (grin}
Yes, you are wrong Jpro. I want to say this in a nice way to not make anybody upset. To form some wild cats the shoulder is much less than the chamber length. Can't use the shoulder on some wildcats. You form a false shoulder and fireform. If you use a bullet you might get on paper and be able to hit the backboard while fireforming. When I am fireforming some wildcats I don't have the time to go to the range or hunting grounds to fireform. I am able to shoot out the window of my shop and get it over with.
Most Ackleys that you mentioned are overbore and just burn the throat to gain very little velocity and probably less accuracy.
If you think about it, yes, you are missing something.
Butch
"A shoulder is placed where appropriate for headspace".
I'd say this fairly well encompasses the idea of a false shoulder, which takes but a stroke of the press, same as any other. I don't recall asking about Ackley chamberings being overbore, or accurate, or slow, only how fireforming a wildcat is "a completely different beast". A properly sized and loaded round doesn't care if it is about to become an Ackley, a Gibbs, a Mashburn, or a Weatherby. A pull of the trigger produces a formed case nonetheless, even with the wildcat 6.5-06AI in question.
I think Butch is inferring that some wildcats take a lot of brass manipulation before you can ever pull the trigger, and he's right about that. I was simply stating that one everything is cut down, necked up/down, and headspaced, the trigger pull is all the same, whether something is getting blown out or not. No worries....
Most Ackleys that you mentioned are overbore and just burn the throat to gain very little velocity and probably less accuracy.
Butch
Hello Butch. I have been shooting Acklies for some 40 years now and have never experienced "throat burn" whatever that is and less accuracy. My average velocity gain is 150'/sec per caliber per bullet weight which I consider free speed. I rarely have to trim brass and the cases last forever. The most maligned cartridge IMHO is the 30-'06 which was my first Ackley and my favorite......especially with the new ultra long high BC bullets. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Regards, Rick.
I think if you are honest very few ackleys give enough usable velocity gain. I have all of ackleys books and have had a few ackleys myself. A 280AI, 7-08AI, and a 223AI are great cartridges with the heavier bullets. It may be ok with the larger and heavier bullets in the 30-06 cases. Think about it, the more powder you push down that bore the more throat wear you will have.
My post above was in answer to your post on the 30-06 case ackleys and no others.
Butch
I'm doing .30-06 to .338-06 and I used Dr. Howell's method.
1. Pistol primer
2. pistol or shotgun powder
3. then the quarter square of tissue tamped down on the powder.
4. then the cream of wheat
5. then cookie cutter some SPG or similar bullet lube so it doesn't all spill out.
Done 30 so far with great success!
Mike
I think if you are honest very few ackleys give enough usable velocity gain. I have all of ackleys books and have had a few ackleys myself. A 280AI, 7-08AI, and a 223AI are great cartridges with the heavier bullets. It may be ok with the larger and heavier bullets in the 30-06 cases. Think about it, the more powder you push down that bore the more throat wear you will have.
My post above was in answer to your post on the 30-06 case ackleys and no others.
Butch
Hello Butch. Let me get this straight....you are accusing me of being dishonest? I didn't start this, you did. First, I could give a rats a** what your adgenda is nor do I care about your experience with the 30-'06 AI as obviously you have none. Well, sir, I do. As for burning barrels, thats just plain hogwash. You want to burn barrels then see what a Remington 30 Ultra Magnum does or for that matter a 7MM Ultra Magnum or any Weatherby chamber.. The 30-'06 Ackley uses about 2 to 3 more grains of powder to generate 150'/sec extra velocity without excessive pressure and has the case space.....and I repeat.....to handle the new heavier ultra high BC bullets. It's not the powder that leads to throat erosion it's the speed of the bullet and jump to the lands that ruins barrels.....not an extra 150'/sec speed with a reasonable COAL, hopefully, measured. You said it yourself...."great cartridges with heavier bullets". This is a custom & wildcat forum....right? To me your post sounds like the same numb bashing of the 220 Swift which has been around for decades and loaded within reason, is no more a throat killer than any other cartridge. I'll probably get banned for this.....oh well. Regards, Rick.
Didn't take much to get your panties in a knot. Go ahead and believe whatever you want.
Butch
PO Ackley said the hottest safe load in the 150grn. 30-06AI was 3150FPS against 3043FPS with conventional loads from the Hodgdon book. He says the advantage with the Ackley is with the larger bullets. With the 180grn bullets the conventional 30-06 with 56 grns of 4350 is 2733 and the Ackley with 4 more grains of powder is 2920. Throat erosion is from heat and blasting the throart with unburned powder.
I reread my thread and can't find where I mentioned any ultra mags.
Butch
I use dacron most of the time and stick a bit block of 1/2 inch thick parafin under my reloading bench and after I throw a powder charge of bullseye or some other pistol powder I punch that wad of parafin and I got a loaded round..I put it under the bench so that I don't have t tip the case to get the parafin in it.
There are a lot of ways to accomplish the same thing and they all work, you can just load the ammo with a bullet and shoot it for that matter, just seat the bullet out to almost touching or touching the lands..I have heard this practice discouraged but I have never been told why that is not good, it has been working for years for thousand of us old wildcatters. Just another wad of bunk that was in print, accepted as truth, and reprinted and became accepted by proxy as fact..The gun world is full of such and such BS, I could write a book on silly beliefs especially concerning double rifles, They are comprised of steel, wood and VOODOO!!!
butchlambert1,
With the 180grn bullets the conventional 30-06 with 56 grns of 4350 is 2733 and the Ackley with 4 more grains of powder is 2920.
It looks like from your post one acheives about 200 feet per second more velocity. If you don't think that is a significant increase, I think you are not really a gun buff.
Ringman,
Reread my initial post. If you are a real gunbuff? you may know velocity is not always the Holy Grail. If pure velocity is what you are looking for, you are looking at the wrong cartridge. The 30-06 cartridge is one of the best cartridges known. It is not the fastest or most accurate. If you look at both of my post, I said the advantage is the larger bullets, not the 150s. Don't take part of it and decide what you think I wrote. Tell me what you gain with 187fps. What if the most accurate load was 2750, would you go faster because it could or would you shoot the most accurate load?
Ringman, I have made a lot of wildcats and sell custom case forming dies. I have shot my 22-284 at 3800 with 89grn. JLK bullets. What a waste of a barrel. Somebody mentioned a Swift above. I had one and it was a great shooter, but I sold it after 25 rounds. I had a 17x22-250AI. Another big mistake. I guess it all depends on what you want a rifle for. I shoot BR and hunt.
I have been around the block.
Butch
I FF with cast, with std., wildcat and Improved chambers. Accuracy has always been very good.
Ringman,
Reread my initial post. If you are a real gunbuff? you may know velocity is not always the Holy Grail. If pure velocity is what you are looking for, you are looking at the wrong cartridge. The 30-06 cartridge is one of the best cartridges known. It is not the fastest or most accurate. If you look at both of my post, I said the advantage is the larger bullets, not the 150s. Don't take part of it and decide what you think I wrote. Tell me what you gain with 187fps. What if the most accurate load was 2750, would you go faster because it could or would you shoot the most accurate load?
I have been around the block.
Butch
Hello Butch, Glad you have been around the block. Let me get this straight. I have 2 choices given both rifles are MOA and both shooting a 180gr Nosler Accubond. I can take a cross canyon 350 yard shot at an Elk and my vanilla '06 provides a vel of 2151 with E=1849 and a drop of 10.1 inches. Or I can shoot my '06 AI that provides a vel of 2313 with E=1993 and a drop of 8.7 inches. Lets see, this is hard....I think I'll take the AI as it provides more Energy and less bullet drop....was that so hard? Regards, Rick.
Either load will do you just fine, though I'll generally take more speed if it's available.
But, 1.4" more or less drop @ 350 yds just isn't enough for me to worry about.
Generally I'll take all the speed I can get as long as I'm not giving up accuracy.
Dober
Rick,
This is getting to be ridiculous. Using your analogy, why don't you use a 300 Weatherby or 300 Ultra Mag?
Butch
Not to get in the middle of this wiener fight, but I use corn meal instead of cream of wheat. I don't eat breakfast, but I love a good skillet of cornbread.
Youngdon,
I have not tried the cornmeal or cream of wheat. What advantage do you think it might be over a case almost full of Bullseye and a wax plug? With today's powder prices, you would save a little money if you foreformed very many I guess.
Butch
butchlambert1,
This is getting to be ridiculous. Using your analogy, why don't you use a 300 Weatherby or 300 Ultra Mag?
Butch
You are sounding silly. Have you noticed the difference in wieght and recoil of the magnums over the A.I.? Anotehr aspeck of the magnums is the necesity of longer barreld if one is to get the most froom his powder.
Maybe it was you who posted something about velocity vs accuracy. When I start with a rifle, I work up the fastest load I can and then dial in the accuracy with the threaded muzzle brake. Works great
! Someone once said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting." I add to that, "If they are fast."
Also someone mentioned the difference between the AI and standard is 1.4". If you are going to narrow it down that close, it could be the difference between a bullet below the heart and in the heart. My first elk was taken at a ranged 400 yards with a heart shot.
Ringman,
I think we need to get this thread back on track. I believe that some of my posts have been taken out of context and it has all gone to hell. As said above, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. I think if you will read my post, I think accuracy is more important than ultra speed. I said above if you want speed go to the magnums. You or nobody else mentioned that they wanted to restrict the barrel length or recoil.
I hunt with accurate rifles. I will use a 6.5X47Lapua on a custom Remington Mod 7 That I built and used last year. My 16yr. old Grandson uses a 30BR built on a Mod 7 also. My 10 yr. old uses a 6X47Lapua Mod 600 that I built this year. My oldest son uses a 300SAUM that I built on a Mod 7 about 2 yrs. ago.
Let's talk about fireforming.
Butch
Never tried fireforming without using standard ammo. Does the wheat make a mess? What about a wax plug, seems like that would pack wax all over the inside of the barrel?
Thanks, just wanting to research this, before I try it.
Hello Ringman. Butch just doesn't get it and we do. I did some rough cost calculations on fireforming by the way, and you and I and and some 10 other posters here based on their pet recipes. If you shot say 50 Sierras downrange with 50 grains or so of whatever powder the cost would be around 22 dollars. The cost of fireforming the same 50 cases using 11 grains of bullseye and cheap media whatever is about three dollars.
I have reloaded the 30-'06 since 1963 and the AI actually shines best with the 165 grain bullet out to 350 yards. Numbers and load. 165gr Accubond(Elk) or for deer BTip, 52.5 gr IMR 4064( I think "quick load" shows 53 gr as max, MV 3048 average of 3 shots. You can zero at 275 yards and sight in at +2.9 at 100 yards. Bullet rise/drop as follows. 100= +2.9, 200= +3.1, 300= -1.7, 350= -6.2 with a ME of 2085'/pounds at 350. Now, who needs a 300 Ultra Magnum that uses some 100 grains of powder, burns barrels in less than 200 rounds(reported, I have no empirical data) and has a near crippling recoil??? I love my Acklies and they are wonderful(IMHO) improved cartridges. And to get back to the original intent of this thread are very very easy and inexpensive to form. Regards, Rick.
Never tried fireforming without using standard ammo. Does the wheat make a mess? What about a wax plug, seems like that would pack wax all over the inside of the barrel?
Thanks, just wanting to research this, before I try it.
Hello DC223. The Cream of wheat does not make a mess.....I clean the brass for a few hours and the barrel with Hopps.......Way less cleaning than you are doing firing 50 rounds downrange. I don't use a wax plug as I use a 22 patch. Others may chime in on any wax problems which I suspect are nil. Regards, Rick.
Sakorick,
What part do I not get? I think you failed to tell me. I also do not use a bullet to fireform. I do not use ultra mags. I do not use my go to barrel to fireform. I did agree with you that the 30-06Ai will work with 180 and above bullets. I think you are just looking for a pissing contest. I just don't think you get it.
Butch
butchlambert1
Ringman,
I think we need to get this thread back on track. I believe that some of my posts have been taken out of context and it has all gone to hell. As said above, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. I think if you will read my post, I think accuracy is more important than ultra speed. I said above if you want speed go to the magnums. You or nobody else mentioned that they wanted to restrict the barrel length or recoil.
I hunt with accurate rifles. I will use a 6.5X47Lapua on a custom Remington Mod 7 That I built and used last year. My 16yr. old Grandson uses a 30BR built on a Mod 7 also. My 10 yr. old uses a 6X47Lapua Mod 600 that I built this year. My oldest son uses a 300SAUM that I built on a Mod 7 about 2 yrs. ago.
Let's talk about fireforming.
Butch
I guess we can talk about fireforming when you are finished. You brought up some silly stuff. I and a few opf the boys merely rebuked you for it.
Seems like a battle when you mix the breeds of shooters... Not uncommon.
That being said, I'll say this, I'm a highpower match shooter out to 1000 and a hunter. Mostly a hunter these days as I haven't shot a match since about 2003 and Camp Perry Nationals.
My take on this, you have to know what you are after here, and thats the same for Butch and Rick.... IE Butch wants accuracy to win with, and rightly so, most BR is shot close and wind isn't as bad as it can be... and accuracy rules. Rick wants a bit more speed out of a case for a bit more wind protection and a bit less drop and a bit more energy.
We can stop there, and say that its been argued if you want more, why not go to the next level... mags and such, well evidently thats not what Rick wants to do and is happy as is, and thats what matters. We could argue the other way around, if by butch, speed isn't an issue but accuracy is, why not shoot BR with an accurate 22 LR. Yep I'm stretching it both ways really but you see my point.
Bottom line to this, you can fireform with bullets, and most hunters do that, and it works fine. You can fireform with wax and small charges and most match shooters even HP that I know do that generally(223AI is a strange exception). Both are right. Neither is wrong. If it makes you happy and works and is safe thats whats right.
I will say this as an aside vs barrel life, I used to think it was many things, but later in life I've come to realize the La Berge brothers(fairly well known LR shooting clan that I'm friends with) always said they thought the best indicator is that it was X pounds of powder down the tube in a certain bore diameter.... and that actually makes most level sense to me. The more I burn the quicker the tube dies.
The other issue that crops up is turbulence point... that certainly seems to mean something in tube life, though I think its quantifiable, I don't think it means that much as to extra numbers of rounds....
Fire forming brass made easy?
Use full loads and shoot them. That's my "easy" way to form brass.
Gentelemen,
In the .220 Extremist I discovered if I did't use a full case of something the necks got too short. This case is a blown out Swift leaving only 1/8" for the neck. I finally settled on a full case of IMR4350 and a seventy grain bullet jammed into the rifleing. The fireformed case came out looking like a baby Weatherby.
