Ain't trying to be a smart arse, I gots an open mind. I just have to be frank and honest, I always thought it was just a bunch of voodoo.

Really truly you guys believe in this? Real world results?

So...

How much does it cost? Do some folks do it better than others? Where do you send em? Do you relieve em after they are mated to an action or before?

And blah blah blah... lots of other dumb questions...

Thanks for any replies.

Any before and after stories that you can really point to and attribute it to the process?

I have had it done to several of my rifles.
I pay somewhere between 50 80 smacks whole rifle.

What I have observed is for the most part is the cleaning is much easier, and on one rifle (a 22/250)it did much better in the accuracy debt, cant say that for the others.

It is not voodo in that there is a solid scietific basis for doing it, and there is no doubt that it improves the life of cutting tools. It was all the rage in BR shooting maybe 10 years ago; I had several done. It appears that it is of limited value for barrels and has kinda died away.

I'm a cryo fan and fluted stuff generally gets it by default..............

Had it done twice to completed rifles, one fluted, one regular. No change in accuracy but they seemed to clean easier.Rick.

I haven't seen a test report by an independent test activity concluding that cryogenic quenching, after a barrel is delivered to a customer, actually does any good.
I think that during the manufacture of the barrel, that quenching according to the heat treat recipe for the steel used would be appropriate, whether it be cryogenic, or otherwise.
I have the heat treat programs for all of the steels I use in knife making, but not for rifle barrel steels.

who knows. i had a remington that someone supposedly had cryo'ed. didn't shoot for me.

i know that doesn't mean anything, statistically. but that's the only experience i have had with it.

I believe the only advantage is the ease of machining. I believe they can drill a straighter hole. It also seems to chamber better. Bill Hull, Shilen Barrel shop boss, brought me 2 barrels. One was cryo and the other was not. I was able to tell by the way they machined.
Butch

That's the one advantage they all seem to agree upon

Dixie,
A machining instructor once said, "Some tools are made to be used, and other tools are made to be sold."
Take that for what it's worth.
whelennut

whelennut,
What is your opinion?
Butch

Not whelenut. I will say this though. I've been a toolmaker for 20 years and a gun builder for much longer. It is a fact that cryo will do absolutely NOTHING for stress relieving a firearm in anyway or any other metal for that matter. What it will do is alow the metal to move or warp after treatment. DON'T DO IT! Any one saying it works clearly hasn't researched it and is going off of "hear say", and uninformed opinions. I tested many different stress relieving methods (my job as a toolmaker), and only one truly worked with out any movement of the steel. That was Metalax. My tools (mostly Husky stack molds) were built with service cycles of 1.5-5 million cycles at a min of 150 tons or more (some was as high as 1500 tons). In many cases I was able to get up to 15 million cycles after the Metalax treatment. A bud of mine up North from me has a machine to do this and it takes about 1-5 hrs. Most large cities or even some welding shops has it available. You just have to look around. Do a little research on it. www.Metalax.com

On edit; You get a print out from the machine on how much stress was in the component before treatment and what little is left if any after. From what I've experienced, it's always pretty significant.

So you are a metalurgist?
Butch

Tool Maker. I built many tools for Husky, Tradesco, HP, Motorola, and many others as well as for the medical industries for 12 of those years in which the components were used in medical room operations (folks lives depended on it). I was involved in every aspect of the process including heat treatment, as well as tool failure analysis and trouble shooting. I never need to be a metalurgist to see the the measurable life cycle and performance differences. Why do you ask?

So you're telling me from a scientific way that Kreiger, Bartlein, and other barrel makers are ruining their barrels? I'm also glad that you are smarter than a metalurgist. I guess that we just don't need them. Next time I talk to John Kreiger and Frank Green, I will tell them superdiesel said they are wasting time and money.
Butch

Butch,

They do it during the heat treat cycle of their barrels, not after it's been machined, and sold.

Nice Tact. Do what you feel is best for you. So sorry to step on your feelers here. I'm telling you only what I found with tool steels (which are used in the fire arms industries as you should very well know).

I take it you have never research on the effects of these treatments and just follow blindly because he said, she said? Sorry, I'm not a subscriber to this. I try to make informed decisions not based on this theology. I've also learned to get my own hard fact over the years as well (cant always count on the internet info).

Any one worth there salt will take BEFORE and AFTER measurement when a steel is subject to a treatment as well as service life under given stress. I would be surprised if this is a common practice performed by these these companies with what is know today (after research and experiences with what it actually does).

Also, I was unaware that metalurgist where into measuring warpage of different steels after treatment. I was also unaware that they were into to measuring stress levels in steels after the machining processes. Truly you MUST be a metalurgist to be speaking up for them. Sometimes you need to use real world testing instead of theories for final product production (as these manufactures should surly know already). I do have a company that produces high performance diesel products from steels and aluminum. I have to create products that not only hold up to extreme punishment but also don't act like an anode with the given environment they will be enduring.

Don,
I guess that I didn't see where I posted that it was done afterward. I also did not post that I have personally seen an improvement in accuracy after it was done. The aforementioned barrel makers do it to improve machineability.
Diesel, I can see that you have not had experience with cryo or done any scientific studies. You are entitled to your opinions and I respect that and you should respect mine.
Butch

#1. You jumped on me here Butch. Respect eh?

#2. I'm glad you feel able to speak your mind on what I have and haven't done. Respect again eh?

#3. Just trying to get some informed decision making going on with others experiences.

#4. What have you done in the area of cryo and testing it Butch??? You seem to be so hard against my finding and experience in the area to contest it (you arrogantly state I have no experience). Please don't tell me your just going off of "because Paul, Dick, and Jane had it done, it must be good". Please, let us know your experiences and findings that you would like to share. Truly it must be more than just "I have not personally seen an improvement in accuracy after it was done".

#5. Cryo is most certainly not used as a form of easing machineability in any form during the tool building process or have I ever even herd of it helping. This in no way means that it isn't possible and some may practice it. However, being a tool maker, were ALWAYS looking for easier, quick or more accurate ways to machine the (some time monsterous) tools we build. This is what keeps us in business. So I wonder why, if it does help, this wasn't instituted a while back in this high precision trade.

But then again Butch, I'll leave it up to you to tell me if I'm a Tool Maker or not. There's enough stuff out there already that folks spend there hard earned money on that does nothing for them. Just trying to get out what does work.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers.

The way I understand it, the cyro quench has to be done as a part of the heat-treating cycle for it to work.

Having an object cyro treated a week or a year after it has been heat treated doesn't do anything for the steel.

I read of one test where a knife maker tested some identical blades--some cyro treated and some not, but hardened to the same hardness, as far as possible. Some steels will pick up one or two points of hardness on the Rockwell C scale when it is
cyro quenched after quenching.

The tests show that cyro treated blades were far superior to non cyro quenched blades in cutting test. The cyro blades stayed sharper longer.

That goes for edge holding ability. Lathe bits and milling cutters, or any cutting tool, and also gears like are found in transmissions and rear ends of vehicles will benefit from cyro quenching, if done at -320 F, and done as part of the heat treating cycle and not at a later date, as described above. It makes the gear teeth harder and stronger, and does the same for cutters.

Just how this would apply to an improvement in a rifle barrel, I cannot explain. Maybe make the bore 1 or 2 Rc points harder, although I have read that it makes cleaning easier, but I have no experience with this.

Cyro treating was never intended to be used to stress relieve, and I have no information that it will.

What cyro actually does is aid in the austinite to martinsite transformation of the steel. Austinite will not harden, nor would it make a good knife blade or anything else. When steel is heated to hardening temperature, about 1700 to 2000 degrees F, austinite forms. This is called the austinizing temperature, and the steel is ready to be quenched. The steel is also non-magnetic at this temperature.

Quenching changes the austinite to martinsite, but quenching to room temperature still leaves some austinite. Immediately taking it on down to -320 F transforms more austinite to martinsite, and the more martinsite in a piece of steel, the better it will perform as a cutting tool.

As I mentioned, I do not know how this would make a rifle barrel better, but I am sure it would make a FL sizing die better, if only causing less pressure to be applied to resize the case, but I don't know that, either.

David Tubbs is pretty knowledgeable. He recommends cyro for thin barrels.

Does is make a difference if the barrel is cut rifled, button rifled, or hammer forged in relation to the effectiveness of the cryo? Why?

Does it matter if the barrel was fluted by the maker or the smith, and should I cryo before or after he installs and chambers the barrel? Why?

Would cryo help a fluted, cut rifled barrel? What stresses might it relieve?

If cryo makes the steel machine easier, does it wear faster when it's shot? Do I get 4000 accurate shots instead of 10000 less accurate shots? Why or why not?

Diesel,
You didn't answer my question. What qualifies you to say what cryo does? I guess I hurt your feelings. You have not given me any scientific info. I did not disagree with your claim to have made a few chips. Your opinion is that it is snake oil. My opinion is it makes machining easier. You know I have have made a chip or 2 myself in the last 45yrs. What makes your opinion better than mine. If you know how to use the keyboard, search the net and you can learn a thing or 2.
Do you drive a Dotch, ooh Dodge>\?
Butch

I'm going to bed, this has turned into a pissing contest. I have a good book to read.
Butch

Does sprinkling the barrel with the ashes of a cooking fire from the heart of a successful kill while howling at a full moon help accuracy? Why?

Only for Savages

RDFinn had some good input. Thank you.

As far as hurt feelings Butch,,, You came after me with nothing constructive to add to this except insults (emotionally charged & controlled obviously). It would be nice if you could add something in the way of knowledge besides getting yourself in a wad. And by the way. You never answered mine. It's ok though. I understand the side step. Insulting the name of a good diesel pick up now? WOW! No, I don't have a Dodge Diesel anymore by the way. Ask Maj. Blaine Painter ("Blaine" on the fire) who I've known for a while and has had some of my products.

Onward. I know that lapping in the barrel will help with cleaning as well. The machining process leaves a slight (very, very slight) rough surface to the finish (reason for the break in on a new motor as well). Lapping smooths the surface so nothing can get stuck to it (or as easily any way). It's kind of like running some thing over very fine sand paper (and I mean VERY fine) compared to a glass smooth surface. I'm not sure how cryo would smooth it out inside. It would seem to be harder to smooth out if it did actually increase the RC (hardness) factor a point or two. Just my honest opinion.

I am by no means a barrel maker, so there's no emotional involvement here unlike another, but these were my observation while troubleshooting tool steel problems and failures after such treatments (looking for a better longer lasting service life from it). Just trying to help other avert a possible problem that I have viewed. Not saying it's any snake oil, but I have seen the results of it afterward as I stated in my original post. This is a user be ware thing. I have NOTHING to gain here (but others have something to loose). If they use it before final machining, that's fine (no experience there). Not something I recommend after hand though on any high tolerance steel component (experience here).

It is what it is. Take it for that.

I guess you are going to tell me Philadelphia beat the Yanks last night because that is the way you saw it.
You have still not answered my question. What proof do you have that cryo has no benefit?
Butch

I felt these were valid questions and easily answered by a "metal-urge-ist" or whatever you guys called them...

I'd be scrutinizing the "why" or "why not", more than the answer, or because some guy that can shoot said so, of course....

My question would be "Does it hurt anything to have it done?"

If not the 50 bucks or whatever is pretty small beans in the grand scheme of things. Good night of drinking basically.

You must be a cheap date! LOL...

Really... we're down to "prove it DOESN'T work!"? Cummon? WTF?

I guess I do have to respect the guy that burns his bills on a cryo in hopes of improving performance rather than naming his rifle and having it engraved on the barrel...

Tongue firmly in cheek....

This turned into an interesting thread! I was just half joking when I tossed the question out there.

I truly respect an engineers book learning perspective.
I truly respect a tool makers experience.

Truth has got to be in there somewhere.

But I was thinking too...

50 dollars for pixie dust ain't the end of the world. I might try it if I ever build another rifle. Specially if I get one of those pencil tubes these fellows are doting on.

I think I will try cryo treating my next barrel by paying my ex wife $50.00 to sleep with it.

Didn't say it did or didn't work but I don't know of anyone who says it's detrimental to the rifle's performance and can prove it.

If it gives a guy the warm fuzzies - big deal and 50 or even 100 bones on something like this isn't bad. Not like someone is losing their mortgage payment over barrel voodoo.

I fret it none - in either regard...

No worries... I actually feel the same as you do. If it makes a guy feel better, it will make him shoot better, so go for it. I'm all for the sprinkling/howling at the moon, as it's simply way more fun.

My posts were mostly in jest, but were meant to foster some thought on how it might or might not work on an individual barrel... and to get somebody to actually say "why" it works. Apparently the detailed questions and "why" to back up the claims is what got the crickets going...

As in rifles or human beings?

You got a few marbles rolling around upstairs or what???

You obviously didn't read my finding in my original post. Been reading long?

The CMM we used for measuring had the data, but even if I had it today you would till be a negative person about it because it wasn't rifle barrels we were testing. They were long pass-core rods for mold (among other things). Secondly you wouldn't heed it because this isn't what "Tom, Dick, and Harry has subscribed to.

Where's the PROOF that it doe's work without moving the steel Butch? Where is the proof it stress relieves Butch? Any stress relieving reports like what Metalax puts out Butch? This would convince me other wise. Till then,,,my firearms get Metalaxed (something I know works in which the proof is in the machines print outs).

Save your bucks, and just score a Lilja #1, 6 groove. Mine shoots sub 1/2 moa, and holds it past 450.

To say cryo'ing won't work is the same as saying heat treating doesn't work. Both claims are false.

But, they also don't tell the whole story. Every alloy has an ideal heat treating and quenching depending on the mechanical properties desired of the alloy.

Not every alloy will show an affect of cryo treating, but that doesn't mean that there is no benefit of cryo treatment. It depends on the alloy and the end use.

Diesel guy,
You evidently didn't take reading comprehension. I want you to go back over this thread and tell me what I said about cryo. I said some barrel makers do it and it makes machining the barrels easier. You go on to say that it doesn't stress relieve and you are qualified to say that because you have made a few chips. Don't need no Metallurgist you say. I don't know if it stress relieves, cleans better, or shoots better and I did not claim that. Shaking a barrel may help, but it did nothing for the 2 that I had done.
Now go back over my posts and tell me what else I said about cryo.
Butch

I suggest you all get ahold of Mike Rock of Rock Creek Barrels and pose this question to him as he is a PhD Metallurgist and barrelmaker. I too am a Toolmaker of 35yrs and there is a vast difference between making a mold and barrel.

Are Rock Creek barrels croyo'ed? Either way they shoot well

Superdiesel

What I see from this is that you could be indicating, what Butch said... IE Krieger and the like are ruining their barrels in the making process. Being that they are winning the roughest competitions out there, one could guess that if they quit treating the steel they'd shoot even better? I doubt that.

And I've had a few dogless barrels put on that are not treated(that i'm aware of anyway) and those have NEVER shot up to par with a Krieger.

You say its horrible to do it. But how do you explain that some of the makers that happen to do it are also at the very top of the pile of accurate barrels and the other non treated ones are not at the top?

Jeff

OK I'll bite again.

WHAT does cryo do, how, and why?

MattMan,
I would suggest you do a search on the web. You should get info that may satisify you either way. My only claim and it sure isn't scientific says cryo barrels machine better.
Butch

My reply on this also isn't scientific, its more along the lines that the top barrels use the system, and it sure can't HURT anything, is it voodoo? Dunno but some folks claim Moly is too, but I know better than that. Then, like I said, I look at non cryo barrels like douglas and wonder why they've never been as accurate for me as the cryo'd ones. Of course it could easily also be in the quality of steel and craftsmanship, but point again, it doesn't hurt evidently.

OUCH!

TFF.

BMT

I know enough about materials science that I don't have to do a search on the web...


I do however, know that moly DOES work, I can't prove it, and don't really give a schitt how or why.

YO a good man.
Butch

at least we agree on moly and many swear it ain't worth the effort.

Last year I shot some ceramic coated bullets in a ceramic coated bore... 7x300 wtby overbore, talk about ZERO fouling though...

Proof, you want proof, we don't have to show you no stinking proof, Oh wait that was a line from a movie, wasn't it?

If the Crucible service center in Texas hasn't closed their doors yet, use the 1-800 number and ask to talk to a tech. Ask them if there is any benefit to Stainless steel doing Cyro treating. Or just for the heck of it you might want to see why it works for tool steel. What is the difference between tool steel and 416R? Read Machinery's Hand book about cyro treating tool steel. Writing this in public to anyone that does machinery work is embarrassing. This is a well known subject. You do know that Crucible is the supplier to most of the barrel making people in the U.S.A.?

Don't be surpriced when they tell you they can see no benefit to the process for SS. Remember this ain't tool steel. Cryo is common to the tool steel boys and has been a service to the tool steel users for decades.

Dan Liljas take:


"Q. What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels?

A. The cryogenic treating of barrels at a temperature of -300 degrees below zero has been a hot topic of discussion lately. Our short answer is that it will not harm your barrel but we are not completely convinced of all of the benefits claimed by some. The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability.

Claims for increased accuracy through stress relief are not founded in our opinion. When barrels are button rifled no material is removed, it is just displaced. This causes stresses to be formed in the steel. If these stresses are not removed problems will result. These negative conditions include warping of the barrel during other machining operations, an increase in the bore diameter towards the muzzle end of the barrel during the contouring phase, and in the extreme, lengthwise splitting of the barrel. Also, if there are stresses remaining in the barrel they can be slowly released as a barrel warms up during firing. This causes the barrel to actually move during the course of shooting, causing inaccuracy.

In our testing we have found that the only effective means to completely remove the types of stresses introduced during rifling are with conventional heat treating using elevated temperatures. The -300 degree treatment alone will not remove these stresses. We have been told by a knowledgeable metallurgist that the deep cold treatment will, at best, remove up to 6% of the remaining stresses in the type of steel used for rifle barrels. The key words here are remaining stresses. In other words if the barrel was not stress relieved conventionally, then only 6% of the original stress will be removed. If the barrel has been treated conventionally with heat and then brought through the -300 degree cycle, up to 6% of any remaining stresses could be removed by the cold treatment. We do know through our testing that the cold treatment alone will not remove any significant amount of stress and that the problems outlined above concerning stress will remain in the barrel.

So, because of the very limited amount of stress that could be removed with the cold treatment (if the barrel has been properly stress relieved with heat as our barrels are) we do not believe that there can be much if any accuracy benefit to the -300 degree treatment of our barrels. It is for these reasons that we feel the cold process has very little potential for increasing the accuracy of our barrels. In our opinion, other than the removal of these stresses, there are no other mechanical factors involved that could benefit accuracy in a rifle barrel, resulting from a heat treating operation, either hot or cold.

For reasons not completely understood however there may be an increase in the wear resistance of the steel. This type of wear however does not contribute greatly to barrel erosion. We invite you to read our comments on this type of barrel wear in the question regarding the use of moly coated bullets.

Another possible side benefit to the freezing process is a slight increase in its machinability.

Post Script: Since I originally wrote this an excellent article by Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets was printed in the September, 1998 issue of Precision Shooting magazine. Mr. Thomas found, in a controlled test, that there was little benefit to deep freezing match grade barrels. He could see no difference in accuracy but probably a slight increase in useful life. I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to take a look at this article."

DING DING DING...

We have a winner.

Moly still works though...

Crucible is still in business with new owners. Hum, I guess Dan agrees with me. Bartlein and Kreiger still use the furnace for stress relieving and the cryo for making machining better.
Gone hunting, be back Sunday. I hope you guys have as much enjoyment as I will.
Butch

But then Kevin did an article showing moly didn't work. So we believe one but not another?

To top that off, a few years back a buddy bought a Lilja and put it on a 223... barrel life was 1700 rounds and it was DEAD. Maybe Dan should put faith in cryo....1700 rounds is ridiculously low for a 223.

No comments there Matt Man?

Post by Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels on cryo.
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I read with interest! A lot of unanswered questions. Some answers are good and some not so good.

Cryo does not guarantee better accuracy. It does not guarantee better cleaning or longer barrel life either.

Yes it might make the barrel more stress free. Several factors here to consider. How do you know let alone the barrel maker know how stress free the material is to begin with. The more stress free it is the less the cryo will have an effect on it.

Second of all the comment made about that so and so uses 416R from Crucible etc....button rifling induces a lot of stress into the blank. Yes they have to restress relieve the blank again but usually the blanks still retain stress. More than you think.

We use Crucible as well. So what is being said?

Chrome moly being effected by heat more? Where did that come from and where is the proof. I have not seen this anywhere. I myself have 5 c.m. barrels on my match rifles and they don't shoot any different than a s.s. barrel.

We even have made c.m. barrels for short range bench shooters. The most recent was for a shooter on the west cost because he wanted his barrels blued to match his BAT action. The guns/barrels are winning matches etc....it's going to be hard to tell him something different.

Also the vast majority of the test barrels we make are made out of c.m.

When I see the test data from 9 barrels in .300 Win. mag in the last year and all are c.m. shooting factory loaded match ammo and at 600 yards shooting consistently around 1/2 moa out of a 50 year old accuracy rest. The s.s. haven't shot any better out of the same set up. And they beat the hell out of them. How about 300 rounds in the first 8-10 hours on the first barrel. If there was a problem with heat and c.m. you think it would've shown up right here.

The Nitriding thing we are watching as well.

Good reading guys. Keep it coming. This is how we learn.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Logged
Butch

3sixbits brought up a good point, one I never thought to consider, and that is that barrels are not made from tool steel, so the effect on barrel steel, if any, would be entirely different from using cyro on tool steel.

From my point of view, I cannot see where cyro treating would be of any benefit to a barrel, either CM or SS. But, if someone wanted to do it, I also do not think it would do any harm.

Several years ago, this question came up and the NRA did some testing. The used an off the rack bolt action rifle, I forget the caliber, but it was centerfire.

They did accuracy testing with it as it came from the factory. Then the sent it off to be cyro treated and when it came back, re-tested and compared the cyroed barrel to the non cyroed barrel.

I can't remember exactly, but I think the results showed no improvement after cyro, but no harm, either.

Other than getting the barrel cold, I don't see any purpose of doing it the way the NRA did it.

To be effective at all, cyro treating has to be done as a part of the heat treating cycle, and not of something made and heat treated a week or year later. I also do not think that you would notice any changes with barrel steel before or after cyro treating even if it was done as part of the heat treating process.

I don't fully understand the austinite to martinsite transformation, but that is the reason for cyro quenching. If a metalorigist (sp?) gave a good explaination of what cyro actually does, along with micro photos of the grain structure, all of us might have a better understanding of what cyro actually does and on what type steel benefits from it.

Bottom line to all this debate is this:
Get the best barrel, THAT YOU THINK!
Get the best smith, THAT YOU THINK!
Practice, SHOOT, Practice, SHOOT, BELIEVE
YOU HAVE THE BEST!!!
That belief and attitude is what is required
to produce. If that includes Cryo, Moly or Voodoo
GO FOR IT!!!!!