Any reason NOT to use one for a custom build? Apparently their wait times are far better than Krieger, Brux, etc.

Thanks

Personally, I'd wait for a quality point cut rifled barrel blank.

IMO, there is a reason for the long wait times....high demand for a great and proven product.

This could very well be true,however my first Shilen barrel(24",#2),shoots sub 1/4" groups in my new 6.5 Rem Mag.I'm more than pleased with it.Monashee

No reason, IMHO.

Have all three. They all three shoot great.

I've heard it said that cut filled barrels last longer. I don't shoot enough to comment on that.

I've have, or have had, several Shilens and would buy another without reservation.

If I was building another rifle, I'd go with the recommendation of my smith regarding which maker to use. Things change and yesterday's darling may not be in favor today. Rifle smiths know who's behind on orders, who delivers as promised and who best backs their product. We know what we read and what we've heard. That info is by nature, past performance and not present time reality. .

DF

I only have one Shilen so my experience is limited, but the one I have is a real shooter, 3/4" five shot groups are common and groups over 1" are very uncommon. Its only problem is it's a bit schizophrenic, a hunting rifle that thinks it's a target rifle. BTW it's a 270WIN

Only one Shilen as well, not a high round count rifle, but I have no complaints. It groups the same with 2 different factory loads...that are 50 grains apart in weight.

I will amend my previous post to add, in addition to listening to my smith, I'd give a bunch of credit to a top notch, long range rifleman who has shot enough over the years to render an expert opinion.

DF

I've used them in the past with good luck, but recently talked to two very qualified gunsmiths here in Canada that mention that the recent Shilens are not as good as they used to be and not being staight was the problem.

I stopped a 358Win job in the works that was to have a Shilen bbl.

Good question. I have both.

This is a Shilen button rifled #2 contour below, and I also have a cut rifled Rock #3 on a 308.



The cut rifled barrel is a better barrel; slightly more accurate, easier to clean, less affected by heat,etc. But the difference is probably less than you might imagine.

Here's a group from the Shilen at 300 meters:



And that entire rifle cost about a third of the other......

If I were only building one custom rifle ever, I would go with a cut rifled barrel.

But Shilen make some pretty decent barrels regardless....

My latest build is a 9.3x62 Mauser that Jkob put together using a Shilen blank. I haven't shot it that much and in a round like that, I don't think barrel life will be a major issue. So far, it seems accurate and time will tell.

DF

i've had at least three shilen barrels they all shot great.

Ed

My Krieger and Brux barrels look prettier thru the Hawkeye borescope. My Shilen has very faint tool marks, nothing like Rem and Savage factory barrels, but just not quite in the same league with these cut rifle barrels.

Now, how well a barrel shoots and how pretty it looks thru a borescope often does not correlate. It's an interesting observation, nonetheless.

DF

If there really was a difference, big or small, between a button and cut rifled barrel, there would only be one of them used in competition events.

+1 on competition barrels.

my custom mauser has a shilen barrel and shoots very well. have not cleaned it yet so i will have to see how smooth it really is

used many Shilens and they are Very good...the standard barrels work very well for a hunting rifle while the select matches are one of the best deals for the $$ out there.

check out the BarrelMan for very good pricing on them. heck of a barrel for $255

http://www.thebarrelman.com/


jerry is great to work with BTW

I've got two Shilen barrels. One is a Rem Varmint Countour in 6.5x284. Shoots well, consistantly in the .5 moa realm. The other is a #3 in 25-06 that I hope to have up and running this summer. All that said, I'm building a full custom .308 right now. I ordered my action yesterday and the barrel will be a Krieger or Bartlein, FWIW.

The way I read that he's referring to his cut being the more accurate of the 2 not that they are in general.

I have a handful of Select Match barrels on various rifles. Agreed, they shoot great, and are priced right, especially from TheBarrelman.

I have one in transit right now that will be turned into a 6x47.

I'm totally confident that the groundhogs this summer will be losing their heads over how well it will shoot.

I guess I read that wrong. Now that I read it again, I think you are right.

Thanks all, sounds like Shilen would be a good choice for a hunting rifle that I would like to shoot 3/4 moa or better. If I want to go .5 moa or better, I "might" be better off with a kreiger et al. Fair summary?

This would be for a .260 rem build on a model 70 action for hunting, not competition. Still want it to be accurate.

Not a fair summary. There have been a lot of BR matches won with Shilen Select Match barrels. A shilen is probably capable of more than you can ring out of it, as well as 95% of the rest if us. I am going with a cut rifled barrel for my next build because I've read that they last longer and I plan to shoot the crap out of it, but I have Shilens and Liljas that shott as well as my cut rifled barrel. For a hunting rig like you are talking you will never see a difference.

Don't forget about Hart. Not cut rifled but a great barrel.

DF

Agree with Pat...a Shilen 280 was burned out in about 600 rounds.That was it for me.I'd order a Krieger or Brux.

One of my last Shilens on my PPC I ran a couple thousand rounds through it, then had it re-chambered to a 6x47Imp and only got another 8K through it.

Unfortunately, there's only a couple of guys in 24HR Land that know [bleep] about Benchrest, but I won the 200 yard Light Gun class at the Cactus Classic with that barrel. Quite a feat, considering it's probably the 2nd or 3th largest match in the country. I haven't heard anything about the quality slipping at Shilen.

Bullshitt! I won the NBRSA - IBA- GFY 200,400,500,600 and 1000 Benchrest championship from 1998-2011.

I am a Legend in BR.

There are probably fewer than that who even care.

Nope none at all.
Cut rifle barrels are the new fad.
Anyone saying you could see a difference in accuracy on a sporter weight rifle is talking chit.
Anyone saying you could see a difference in accuracy on a full on bench rifle is talking chit.
Hart and Shilen dominated short range BR for decades before
Keriger and Bartlien came along.
Making a good barrel is about one thing.
Attention to detail.
The process used to make that barrel is irrelevant.
Dober would call it.
Ballistic gack.
He would be right.


dave

I have 3 Shilen barreled, 1 Lilja Barreled, 4 Douglas barreled,& 2 Hart barreled rifles. The only failure I have had was a Krieger barreled.

Just my experiences with Shilen barrels and the background to back it up.

How you choose to use it is up to you....

Anyone who has fitted, chambered, and shot a large variety of barrels KNOWS the method of manufacture has much less to do with performance than does quality control.
I know I have fitted and chambered more Shilen barrels than any other single brand; hundreds, for sure. I have had one which was truly sub-standard and it was replaced. The bores are as straight, on average, as any and the select match are better than most in this regard.
I have also used a whole bunch of Douglas, McGowen, Pac-Nor, and other button- rifled barrels and they have been fine too.
I have also used a lot of various cut-rifled barrels and most have been excellent.
I have seen a few highly- touted barrels which were a disappointment with tool marks, crooked bores, and variations in size.
I have had barrels which were supposedly match-grade, hand-lapped barrels, sent to me to be lapped to remove tool marks and improve performance.
An awful lot of what I read on various message boards, regarding barrels, is pure fantasy or it is speculation and opinion based on a very limited sampling. GD

When it comes to barrels my first choice is Shilen. I'm sure other barrel makers are going to say their barrel are better. I still believe the barrel maker is only the first step in accurate rifles and my opinion the Gunsmith has more to do with a Benchrest winning rifle than the barrel make you choose. Anyone who thinks Shilen is a inferior barrel only needs to look at the Benchrest records over the last 20 years. Shilen is the standard everyone else tries to match.

Would you mind sharing who the smiths were, SC? This is the first I've heard of Shilen slipping recently?

I realize its just a sample of one, but my most recent build has a 1-10 .30 SS SM Shilen in a very light contour. The thing is an absolute, consistent drill and cleans up very well. Course, the smithy had a huge part to play in that, I'm sure...:) Infact, I have enough faith in the combo of Shilen and Mr. Anonymous that a 6MM Remington build, with very similar specs, is in the works.

Some of these posts are comical. I had a Hart barrel a few years ago on my BR rifle. I wasn't happy with it. I gave it to a friend that needed a barrel. It screwed in and headspaced perfectly on his Kelbly Panda action. His first 2-5shot groups were .092 and .087. It was shot in Midland at the Buffalo Shoot. I learned a big lesson, don't bad mouth a barrel maker.
For you that don't know it, Shilen has added an additional Pratt&Whitney deep hole drill and were building a new rifling machine. It may be done now. Now maybe they can supply barrels quicker now because of increased capacity. Ever thought of that?
I have shot barrels from Lilja, Kreiger, Hart, Broughton, Turbo, Douglas, Rock Creek, Bartlien, and Shilen. All of them worked well.
My next BR barrel will be a Shilen 4 groove ratchet 6mm with 13.5 twist. I have a lot of faith in it or I would have bought a different brand. On a BR barrel or even a hunting barrel you buy the best that you can, not the cheaper or fastest delivered. Nothing wrong with that if the cheap fastest is best in your estimation.

PM sent.

Nice when someone with considerable experience comes on and sets the record straight.

Hands down a cut barrel outlasts a button barrel. I've shot way too many of both. At least it holds true in .223 Rem with really warm loads and mostly 90s....

For the minor if any cost difference to a button barrel, I'll never buy any but cut if they come in the setup I want.

It simply makes dollars and cents to go cut with a longer barrel life, and get more out of the cost of setup and chambering costs.

Accuracy wise I don't know that if I compare top line of both, that I have a true opinion, both seem to give pretty good results.

BTW so I don't seem like an internet hero.... my only experience to say the above is I cna't recall the number of barrels shot out in 223, but I did do an ammo count fired once and in competition alone it was something over 300,000 rounds of ammo.

And pretty consistently button tubes failed to hold up the required accuracy around 3500-4500 rounds. And cut often failed around 6500 rounds. Though I did run a Krieger to over 12,000 rounds once, and the last match I won the Gold Leg Medal at the LA state service rifle matches.... it was still holding around MOA at 600 yards...

Jeff

rost495,
I disagree with you. My experience does not show that.

I purchased this Shilen barrel a few weeks ago. Seen the slight curve, but figured it would straighten itself out after the 1st shot.

I know of one old BR smith here in Texas that refused to use Shilen tubes after some bad CS experience with them concerning a barrel that wasn't up to standards. I used what he recomended which was Kreiger but his other 2 choices were Hart and Pac-Nor (which I've heard mixeds reviews of but he stood behind them). I think all makers can send out a bad tube at any given time, it's how they stand behind their product that makes the company.

I think there is more behind the thread and chamber to what you are asking than cut vs button accuracy. Barrel life depends on treatment and cleaning from what I have been told by guys that shoot rifles like I do pistols. Get it hot and keep beating on it and they won't last as long. I have had a few Shilen barrels and just got a quarter bore in the mail a few weeks ago. I will try to keep it long enough to break it in this time. You will be fine as long as the guy running the lathe knows how to make shavings.

I've used about half a dozen Shilens and have never had any issues with them. They all shot great out of the gate, cleaned easily.

My late gunsmith used either Krieger or Shilens for his builds. He was a BR competitior and used Shilens on his own competition stuff. Even had a "world record" posted at one time.

In most professions, folks truly serious about their work don't do things half-azzed or to build garbage. For some reason, most barrel makers seem to fit this category of "serious"....

A really good smith still needs a really good barrel to make magic........

I didn't know Shilen made air gun barrels.

Lol, that was the only crooked barrel
Pic I found on google images.

We can agree to disagree. But 300,000 rounds never showed a differing trend at all. Every last button tube died at least 1000 rounds earlier than every last cut tube. Bad examples included.

And then there was teh one button that died around 2500 rounds of 223, vs the cut that lasted over 12,000 rounds. To be fair both were probably the extreme ends of quality though.

And in the M14 days, every last shooter we shot with that knew anything about anything, always said a douglas dies 1000-1500 rounds quicker than a Krieger.

That being said it may well have something to do with powders, charges, bullet shapes( IE shooting a LOT of VLD stuff over the years vs flat base BR type bullets?) and so on.

I simply have no desire anymore, especially after my last douglas, to ever do button agian.

That being said I do have a shilen on a 6 mm WOA, it was pulled off a 6x45 that had a 1000 or so rounds as I recall, but its only got about 200 rounds down it and hasn't been shot in a few years... its a hunting gun but it was great on accuracy.

If I were to shoot a Shilen these days on a 223, I have NO real doubts accuracy wise as long as its a select one, but I also know that at around 3000 rounds give or take its going to probably be done with. Which isn't an issue for most folks.

PS we do shoot what amounts to timed fire strings in our game, and that may have something to do with it too? Half the shots fired are timed. And the other half, ofter are fired 20-22 rounds in 10 minutes or less depenidng....

BTW there re comments on pac nor...

I shoot them, they are not generally as accurate as my Kriegers or Rocks are. But they provided a barrel in 223 that did what I wanted it to do and no others made same.

My only deal there I knew they wouldn't last that long, and they didn't And I knew I'd get a bummer now and then... and I did... for the cost it wasn't such a bad deal really, just sell it to someone not so picky, but over many Kriegers we had one about circa 96 IIRC, that would do no better than about .75 moa day in and day out at 600 yards and closer. Lived with it till it was relegated to a practice tube. In the same time period we had another Krieger on a juniors gun that I wished I had. I shot a number of 5 shot groups at 600 that were 1.5 inches appx give or take and one that scared 1.25 inches... ( groups that large we measured with a tape for a rough idea. Thats also OD to OD group size)

Jeff

Fullbore, service rifle, and TR shooters have always considered cut rifled barrels to last longer and it is difficult to argue with this. In the short range BR game, the difference is hard to see simply because a barrel which has slipped to 1/4 moa is no good while a 1/4 moa barrel is exceptional in any other game. Different requirements result in different conclusions.
In a hunting rifle, accurate life is likely to be longer than the rifle is going to be shot regardless of manufacturing method. In addition, most gun nuts will be unlikely to keep a rifle long enough to wear out the barrel.
I have noticed that many gunsmith recommendations will vary according to what barrel they are pushing at the time. A maker of cut-rifled barrels will seldom concede that a buttoned barrel can even be acceptable. It seems that all barrelmakers like to blow a little smoke from time to time.
The original poster asked if there was any particular reason to avoid Shilen barrels. I would say "no". I would say the same thing about Douglas, Krieger, Bartlien, Rock, Brux, McGowen, Pac-nor, Smith, Gaillard, Hart, Border, and a host of others. GD

rost495, you obviously are convinced that your's is biggest. Tell me what makes a cutrifled barrel last longer. What makes this happen?

That just cracked me up....don't know why it seemed so funny to me...maybe because I'm in both the group that don't know and the one that don't care. Thanks Bob!

Ok Butch, you don't need to start with smart azz. I never was, or never intended to be smart azz either. If you took it that way, I apologize up front.

I simply put out what I've seen. Its like chronos to me. They don't tell me much other than speeds. They sure don't tell you what your group is going to be. Maybe up close it does, but not out at 300 and beyond.

What I've seen, is what I"ve seen.

There is no need to tell you WHY. Hell I don't know WHY? Really what difference does it make. My mother is the same way though, she has to know why. IMHO why can waste a lot of valuable time and in the end gives you no advantage.

But tell me something, in 300K rounds of shooting 223 in competition, that means I've gone through something like 50 barrels between kids, the wife and I.

And in that 50 barrels I've probably ended up at about 1/3 button and 2/3 cut.

Numbers simply don't lie do they?

You tell me what you think I have wrong and why in your eyes mine is biggest AND I'm wrong?

This was not to be a pissin match. Never intended that but folks get their panties in a wad.

What I can't stand is someone coming along and saying emphatically that what I've seen over that many barrels is a lie. I'm not the only one to see this.

Basically you've just called some of the best highpower shooters in the USA liers.

And FWIW I don't care whos barrel I shoot, or what type it is. I only ask for two things. It to perform to my specs as far as accuracy goes and to get the best life out of it. With Pac Nor I can get one but not the other. But I have to settle for shorter life because I can't get the performance out of other barrel brands for the specific rounds I shot at the time.

Heck I'd love to shoot a cheaper barrel, have it as accurate and last as long as a more expensive one...

as to the answer to the question that I don't care about... the only thing I could guess, that in cutting, both the lands and grooves end up more precise and sharper to start with , and very possibly deeper. I"ve no clue as I noted. I've never researched depth, shape etc.... The answers to that don't win matches.

Jeff

You're right, you have no clue.

Ok then, I, with evidently no damn clue as I must be ignorant and not know what I"m talking about, have given evidence.

You have only said folks that have my opinion are stupid basically.

Give us your take.

You are a smith.

How many cut barrels and how many buttoned barrels have you put on Service/match rifles and what is the round count to death?

That will show the light here and maybe I'll learn something new.

I really figure its a dimensional thing more than anything.

But since you seem to know what goes on and why, enlighten us.

I"m always willing to see the other side.

No one beats the Shilen drum like Butch

You're not willing to see anything. Why would make a cutrifle barrel last longer than a button rifled barrel? Just answer that.

Who was the old fool that said I trumpeted Shilen barrels? I do have a Shilen barrel blank that will be my next BR barrel. Haven't used one in a few years because everybody said they were a little off. I haven't found a cutrifled barrel better yet. My last cutrifled barrel that shot great was a Rock Creek and I use it for my 30BR.

I don't shoot 300,000 rounds a year. I would be a better shooter if I did. I also know nothing about belly shooters. I have never passerd judgement on them either.

you don't read or comprehend at all do you.

300K in my life of competition. That answers a lot right there.

Carry on.

I'm with you Jeff. All the high master shooters that I know that wear out several barrels a year claim that cut rifle barrels last longer with a significantly higher round count. Never heard a claim of better accuracy just longer useable life. All I know have tried enough of both to figure it out the hard way. Hopefully I can rebarrel enough one day to confirm this myself.

Shilen is the only barrel made that airgauges within 3 thousandths. However most gunsmiths can and do [bleep] up perfectly good barrels. In light of that fact it never ceases to amuse me how most seem to fumble around in the dark.....really not even so much as looking for a clue.....mostly because they really haven't even the slightest inclination that there may even be one. Perhaps someone would care to extrapolate just exactly how my gunsmith can get a shilen to shoot 3/4 inch 300 yd groups every time while whoever your [bleep] up Smith is can't seem to squeeze a 1" 100 yd group out of a shilen barrel. Hint!!!
The fix for your perfectly good [bleep] up barrel is to send it to my gunsmith instead of the one you've been useing who's blowing nothing more than a whole lot of smoke up your ass and he'll fix the [bleep] up peace of schit and send it back to you a shooter.

Shod

Interesting, assuming you are addressing me, that my last douglas that isnt' more than about an MOA or just under barrel, was done by the exact same as my last Rock. And the 2 rocks that come from him are under .5 moa.

I have never said that Shilens don't shoot.

I said buttons don't last as long as cut.

but then some are just hot heads, and don't comprehend.

Douglas says its airgauged barrels are less than .0001, at least it says so on their website.

Why is it that barrels seem to get folks as red-azzed as politics and gas prices?

Sounds like Shod has a good gunsmith. That do make a difference in accuracy regardless of the tube chosen.

Shod is just the best shooter in the World...

I don't understand it either. It's very simple... If you don't shoot Brux, you're just an idiot.

John

NOPE!!! I wasn't addressing you sir and I'm not in the slightest mad or feeling hot headed.

Shod

If you don't shoot punched-out 700 take-offs, then GFY... grin

I don't know why they even make buttons anymore.

Thanks buddy! I new you'd be here to back me up.

Hey.....I resemble that remark.. ............

You can bet that when I get a lathe, I'm gonna teach myself how to use it by punching out 700 takeoffs.

Some years back, (like nearly 30 years back) I had a 700 BDL 7mm08 that, once free floated, shot pretty well, consistently in the 3/4" range or a little better. Made the mistake of shooting the donor some years later. This time a .308 700 ADL. Put 10 shots of GMM into a ragged hole. Was much harder to unscrew that tube from that action after that. Most recently, bought a Dick's 700 stainless .243 a couple of years back for dirt cheap during one of their Christmas sales. At the time intended to use the action for my .260 build, but decided to go with a Stiller instead. Of course, I had to shoot it a little before I sent it down the road. shot < 1" with absolute minimal load development. 7828 pushing 95gr VLDs if I recall...

John

I love me a good 700 takeoff... there's a stainless 243 Ackley sitting under my truck seat waiting to be dropped off at my smith's this week and I have absolutely no doubts that it'll bughole what's sitting on my bench.

Getting a lathe, you say?! I'll send you some stuff to practice on... grin

I'm trying to tell ya.


<g>

Won't be tomorrow, but definitely on the to-do list. Gonna have to do something to support my hunting/shooting habit when I retire...

John

lets see service rifle vs benchrest rifle who might know more about REAL accuracy

One explanation I have heard is that the cut rifled barrel does not need to be normalized to the extent that the buttoned barrel does so it is a bit harder (this came from a maker of cut-rifled barrels, mind you). Another explanation was the cutting removed any reamer marks IN THE GROOVES while the button-rifling process simply ironed them out so that the substrate lacked integrity in comparison to the cut barrel. A third explanation was that the slight work hardening of the buttoning process was actually detrimental as gas cutting was worse. All of these explanations are theorectical at best but the belief that cut-rifled barrels have a longer accuracy life is widely held and not without some justification.
As I said before, the required accuracy levels are certainly different in different disciplines but this doesn't necessarily refute this contention. One shooter, the opinions of whom I respected very much, claimed that cut rifled barrels lost there accuracy gradually while buttoned barrels seemed to fail all of a sudden. I can't agree or disagree because I don't have the data to do so.
I personally don't believe there is any difference in barrel life at BR levels or, if there is, it is not significant enough to make any advantage obvious. I do know that one barrel I had which lost it's accuracy life very early was cut rifled (from Bob Sherer) but I have every reason to believe this was an exception. As I said before, if a BR barrel no longer shoots well under .2, it's not of much use for the purpose but it is still perfectly usable as a field rifle barrel. The criteria is different; a lot different. GD

Yep you can get real accuracy out of a gun if you get off your hind feet, sit on yer azz, and use fancy rests so that its a challenge of the gun, not the gun and the shooter.

Grins.

Regardless the bottom line, whatever my accuracy requirements are, the buttoned tubes simply did not hold as long a life span to that requirement.

It may well be different in BR.

As to Greydogs comments on barrel deaths... I heard some similar stuff RE chrome moly vs SS too. I've seen a few issues on abrupt death, but only a few. And all in SS barrels. But thats all I shoot.

But I always heard the CM died slowly and the SS died right now. At least thats IIRC.

Anyway I do recall a death of one SS tube at 300 rapid fire on a 300 yard range... shot a 200-17x rapid fire. Could not shoot a 200 on the prone slow reduced to save my tail. And it was rare at that time to not shoot a 200 wiht at least 50% or more X count...

But I digress.

Tanner says it... this can get pretty hot as a topic and I"m as guilty as any. But only up to the point of what i've actually seen.

Jeff

Really shows your ignorance of the game......

After shooting both, for my money I will buy a cut-rifled barrel for many of the reasons listed above.

Rost495,
Actually, I have seen just the opposite re. the stainless vs Chromoly issue. It has always seemed to me the chromoly had more of a tendency to crater suddenly. It seems like the throat area of a chromoly barrel developes cracking from hot gases to a greater extent than does stainless. Stainless barrels seem to erode quite smoothly and evenly. This relates to one possibility for the longer accurate life (within certain parameters) of a cut barrel. Once a barrels throat area erodes past the condensed surface created by swaging the rifling in, deterioration of the throat is sudden and uneven. Keep in mind, this is a theory I have heard put forth and not one to which I necessarily subscribe.
By the way, real accuracy determination and real data regarding accurate barrel life can only result from a large sampling of barrels fired under controlled conditions. This would mean from a machine rest and in a tunnel. All other evidence is really anecdotal and is a theoretical exercise only. GD

Wound up like I get eh? Can't take a bit of humor there? Grins.

Then my IIRC part was working backwards... like I said its been so long since I heard that theory. And don't really care as I shoot SS and it does what I want it to. Beyond that the thought process is a waste of time vs getting other things done...

Yes you are very true RE testing and such. Though you cannot totally ignore years of firing where its always been evident that the cut outlasts the button in our sports. I"ve had more than a few buttons too...

Come to think of it the only one that lasted a long time and is still on a gun is a black star. But it was "treated" IIRC. I think blackstar our of Houston was button anyway.

Just calling 'em as I see 'em.......

I would and have used button rifled barrels. If I were to use one it wouldnt be a Shilen, Douglas or Pacnor.
Given the minimal cost difference why not use the best? Rock Creek, and Krieger get my money.

Tis a lot more to BR shooting than sitting on a bench pulling a trigger. A lot more than most realize.

And the groups it takes to win these days are unreal to me at times.

Of course you don't have that as they say belly shooting or what I did, position shooting. The positions are unstable enough as it is.

BUT each sport has its requirements that are extremely hard. DIfferent but hard.

Of course I had a buddy that shot BR and came to service rifle and said mastering service was harder than mastering BR shooting. I didn't really agree with him, but it was his comments.

Bottom line any top level sport requires a lot of work one way or another.

And with highpower, its come along the same as BR... the scores required to win are getting higher and higher. The target size was reduced once already many years ago, and I suspect it may be reduced again possibly.

Yup. IMO, those are B grade button barrels. Button barrels from Hart, Broughton, Schneider and Lilja are top of the line.

There are really two reasons Cost and Timing, cost isn't simular. The last two cut rifle barrels I had installed were around $625 all up. About half is the barrel and the other half was smithing.

I use Douglas for the button barrels installed by ITD, less than $400, so there is a good sized price difference.

The second difference is time. I have cut rifles barrels on order, one at 7 months and the other at 4 months, I will still have to receive them and have them installed when they are finally delivered.

ITD supplies and installs a barrel in less than 4 weeks.

I know there are some places that stock cut rifle barrels, but except for a few sporters, most seem to be LR or target barrels. I wish there was a place to buy an off the shelf 25 cal/#2 contour Rock, but if there is I don't know who it is.

ITD will recontour a barrel for ya for minimal charge.

anyone that needs a barrel faster than 6-12 months isn't doing very well at planning ahead IMHO.

If you can get one quick, fine, but we learned a LONG time ago to have a few spare blanks on hand for when your timing and theirs was bad.

Guess what? I agree with that.
You have a PM.

Were you drinking heavily when you wrote this.....really 3 thousands?

Yep.

I have patience and plan ahead, always keeping several tubes in the safe, ready to go. I have had two Douglas barrels and both where the absolute pits as far as keeping clean. They shot pretty mediocre all things considered. Douglas is the absolute last barrel I would use of the three I mentioned.
BTW a Douglas blank costs about $230 and a Rock about $315.I will take the Rock each and every time!

Never had a Broughton, have had Hart (my first retube, 25/06 that was a drill!), Lilja and Schneider.

I could run the Hart and Schneider the rest of my life and neva want for anymore.

Dober

I had a 30 cal Broughton and it was a drill. Broughtons contours are on the porky side though.

where can I get a rock blank for $215?

BTW one reason I have heard that cut tubes last long is the grooves are cut deeper than button tubes. Seems buttons are limited in how deep they can cut a groove.

That was a typo. It should have been $315.

Hart #2 is for me a darn good contour

Dober

I have a 28 inch Hart #3 SS 6.5 MM 1&8 Twist , that i have been saving to re-barrel my 264 Win Mag with if it ever needs it.

That would be a darn good one!

Dober

I've got Rock & Bartlien. My Broughton .243 shoots 70gr BK's into 1 cluster even on my bad days of shooting.

I've used more Shilen blanks for my custom rifles than any other brand. I've always had great luck with them. Accurate, easy to clean, decent price and wait time. There are a lot of great barrel makers out there. I personally consider Shilen one of them.

Best of luck.

I am in the process of building my 6 th custom , and have a number 3 Shilen .257, 1-10 twist to make my new 25-06. I have 5 other shilens that seem just fine to me, but I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject. One consistent thing I seem to hear is that there are some fine barrels made, and some not so fine gunsmiths. I keep using Shilen because they are the easiest to get at the best price, and they all shoot better than I do. One thing I alway keep in mind is that once I leave a controlled bench rest shooting situation vs a hunting set up just about any barrel shoots better than me! I live in the PNW and let's of guys are running Pacnor and I'm hearing more about the folks over in Arlington WA. A Lot as well. Happy shooting, goodshot

Got to disagree with you on this ,Jeff

To the origional topic I have no problem with Shilen barrel's and have used many of them. I think its silly they have different grades but just buy the select match and most likely it will be a great barrel.

+1, that's why I'll never buy a Shilen.

Only way to get the accuracy Guarantee from Mr. Forbes at NULA, is with a Douglas....
Im thinking he builds a few rifles and shoots a bit....

dave

I don't see the logic.

Its difficult to see logic when there isn't any captain.

Shod

Unless there was a significant price difference between the "grades", I can't see why someone would buy a second tier barrel especially when you consider all the costs involved for a rebarrel job these days.

Thats fine and dandy. I still wont purchase another.

So you've never dinged out a 600 yard or such group off the bench, noting your chrono readings, got all excited because its all single digit stuff mostly... really nice readings and such, a few shots exactly the same, only to drive down there and find that your group is well over MOA?

I certainly have seen that often enough.

What the chrono tells me is MV area for a few reasons I want to know that. Safety is one. Another is am I fast enough to be viable with this load?

Beyond that the ONLY way I work with groups is what the holes in the paper tell me.

No I don't get bugholes with higher n heck numbers but the numbers do lie at times. Enough so that I finally decided the only way to prove a load is shoot it at distance.

BTW been having a nice long discussion via PM with Butch. Learned quite a bit through that on some issues and was nice to learn about the isonite type treatings too in the course of that conversation.

I agree fully; the proof is on the paper. I also use the chronograph to satisfy curiosity as much as anything else. I have NEVER chronographed a load for any of the BR rifles. I do chrono the "F" class guns just to confirm that I'm in the velocity ballpark. GD

Shilen has 2 grades of Stainless steel barrels. Match grade and select match grade. The difference is the select match bore and groove diameter have to be .0001 max difference. Match grade is .0001-.0003 from end to end. I would never pay the difference for a select match over the match grade for a hunting rifle. . The only difference in the CM barrels are lapped or not lapped.
I don't understand why the choices make any difference if you know what you are ordering.
As far as chronographing, I find my rifles shoot better at certain speeds. If I change powder or bullets[same weight] I try to attain the same speed that worked before. It usually doesn't let me down. Not a speed freak anymore, just dependable accuracy.

Quick Reply- not to just you butch.

I think the op would be more than happy with the Shilen for a hunting rifle. If he is asking here, he really doesn't care about splitting a fly's wing at 600m.
I see some of the same factless held beliefs with guys who run drag, circle track, and road racing when it comes to motors. Drag cars are tuned to run for finite amounts of time, at the best of their capability. Anything less is a turd. Circle track and road racers just need it to run hard and close to the same numbers, lap after lap, week after week. Doesn't make one any less or any more than the other, just what the driver/crew chief expext of them.
Same goes for belly and butt shooters.

I shoot quite often at 1000 yards and beyond, if a load does not have single digit SD numbers it is unacceptable at these ranges. what might work at 600 yards with high SD numbers is disaster if you double the distance.

Butch and Jeff,
A topic you guys brought up earlier in this thread about cut rifled barrels lasting longer than button rifled barrels....this topic was discussed many times this past year on the benchrest circuit I was shooting in.
Most of the shooters were in agreement that current barrel steel among all the top barrel makers is of poorer quality today than it was say 5 years ago.
For example I have a 5 year old Krieger barrel 1-14" twist chambered in 6ppc that died at about 2000 rounds, the one I bought last year puked at 1200. Some claimed Bartlein and several others doing the same thing.
One of the best shooting barrels I saw last year was a Hart that Dan Dowling had that lasted the season

+1

Yes, I totally agree, BUT if you were to take the very best numbers you have IE singles on SD, they may not equal your best group.

1000 and beyond even 900 IMHO, is like stepping into another world that many never venture into.

But to simply load until you find the best IE lowest numbers may not always give you the best results.

Granted the further out you go, the more drop from shot to shot becomes important, hence the desire for the single digit SDs.

I'm putting a #1 Stainless Krieger on my next lightweight 250AI. Oops, I meant a #7, they don't go lighter than that in stainless. Silly [bleep].

Now that's a cheery bit of info. If that's the case with custom barrels, gawd knows what the factories are using for mass production.

Paul

Which is interesing because the last years,more than 5 tthough, factory guns have become more and more accurate off the shelf...


Curiously, I don't see that the accuracy was different???? Just barrel life?

But IMHO there have have always been blips like this. I just hope its not an indicator of the future. And God knows I"d pay even more for a barrel if I knew it would last longer.

I know a friend had a Schneider some years ago that was put on a 223 bolt gun and he never shot hot loads in it, and that one was dead for highpower requirements in 1700 rounds or even less as I recall.

Didn't Crucible die a couple years ago? I believe the barrel makers are scrambling to find good steel.

Lol.....

It is a proven fact that the slow the rifle twist you can get by with the longer the barrel will last.

Haha!

My 35 Whelen carries a Shilen barrel; #4 contour, stainless, 25" long. It routinely shoots factory ammo with 225 grain Trophy Bonded bullets into 3/4" at 100 meters. Also, I've been able to get 225 grain Ballistic Tips in handloads into 5/8" at the same distance. Certainly not a target rifle, but then she kicks back at 'cha a bit more than most target rifles do too. I like Shilen barrels.

I have three rifles with Match select Shilens and they shoot great.

25-06AI
7mm-08
260

Recently built a 280AI with a Benchmark barrel and it outshoots the Shilens hands down. Easier to clean and temp doesn't affect it as much. Just a tad cheaper.

The last couple of barrels I have used were Shilen match grade. They shoot every bit as good as the $300+ barrels that I have previously used. I have used Schneider this past year as well. They didn't shoot any better than my Shilens. I really like the ratchet rifling that they have.

I won't, however, use a button rifle barrel on a contour smaller than #4. I have found on HUNTING rifles, that a cut rifled barrel in smaller contours has a tendency to shoot different bullets to the same point of impact at 100 yards and don't seem to wander as much when they heat up. From #4 on up I haven't noticed enough difference to worry about it.

As for the barrels listed, I wouldn't use a Hart or a Lilja if they were given to me on a dare. There- I've said it. Barrel makers tend to be arrogant and these two are by far the worst I have encountered.

And I have two #1 contoured Stainless Kriegers. I talked them into it because I told them I hunt where it's hot. They are both pretty good barrels but not earth shattering.

Seems like when a top name bench shooter does well with a particular piece of equipment, the masses can't get out of each others way fast enough to see who can get their head up his arse furthest. I think that is why you see one barrel brand dominate for a few years and then someone else finds better snake oil and all of a sudden, brand X is not good enough anymore.

One thing is for sure, when building a hunting a rifle, worrying whether to by a Rock or a Shilen or a Krieger or whatever is the least of your troubles- they are ALL better than what a typical hunting rifle can ever shoot. Switching barrel brands is not going to change a thing. Just like Butch, I won't use a select match for a hunting rifle; that's like putting super unleaded in your Yugo- not going to make it run any better.

That about sums it up right there.