Are these worth any money when a custom barrel and stock are put on in a 300 H&H or 375 H&H? I've seen rifles like this fetch 2k all the way to near 4k. Or did the seller just hit the right buyer?

R

Depends on the quality of the work and or the name of the smith. The actions alone bring a pretty penny. By the time you barrel, stock, blue etc....
You may have more in it than anyone is willing to pay.

Seems you are looking for a way to make money off custom rifles?

Go to Guns International and look at the custom guns for sale, they generally sell for less than the replacement cost.

Good point. I build, convert and restore 86 Winchesters, Ruger Single Actions and Colt SAA. Not wanting to make money, just trying to determine if building some in my free time is worth it for me. Of course, there will be a day when I'll sell it and don't want to get killed.

R

Pre 64 H&H Magnum actions are a top choice for a highend build. I can remember back in the good old days, about 25 years ago and back, seeing G&H employees up in our area buying every pre 64 Win 70 H&H action or rifle there was for good money at least once a year.

IMHO,
I don't want to sound like the voice of doom, however, the market is greying out a little. I talked to CSMC last year about a 28 gauge Winchester 21 O/U and they said there were no plans to make anything other than the 20. Further, he said that had they known what they known then what they know now the 21 O/U project would have never gone forward at all. This largely shocked me and I asked if he would mind explaining a bit more. In short, he said that they lose 10 older shooters to attrition and get 1 new shooter interested in that end of the market back. I was surprised at that admission. There was nothing for him to gain by passing it on... That said you COULD be swamped, however, I don't know as the market is there. There are always those lined up for something for nothing...

LRI Inc., Chad Dixon, is setting up a new HAAS 5 axis Milling Machine to blueprint all types of Model 70 actions as we speak(along with other ala-carte work done on the same machining center). A machine that can run at night unattended... I dunno if it is a VMC or HMC Further, he is setting it up at a discount for a Group Buy. He has been doing rolling "Group Buys" since 2013 on Remington 700s and has an excellent reputation aside from being a wee bit of a dick. I am going to wait until he gets the bugs worked out and send him a 51' Model 70 in .30-06 and have him go full bore on receiver work, chamber a new barrel in .270 WCF, .280 Remington, or even .30-06', and bed it in an Echols Legend as a test to see what he can do... I think it is going to be hard for smiths who do each operation with considerable setup time on a manual mill & lathe, to match a $100-200K plus HAAS using gang tooling and multiple actions in the work holding, WHEN & IF, Chad gets the bugs worked out. I don't like him personally, however, he can do EXCELLENT work and I would not bet against him coming or going. I don't think D'Arcy, Penrod, or Heilmann are in any trouble, however, those who occupy the middle ground between excellence and the half-azz, like a board member who comes to mind, are likely to lose work...

That AND look at where the majority of "Custom" rifles are going... Granted this is another FWIW & IMHO, however, the PRS bit has really taken off as huntable land continues to become less available to the public AND guided hunts are too expensive for anything other than gun writers shooting gratis & wealthier clients. I see us, in the long run, winding up with more shooters and fewer hunters. Another situation like Germany which is not good for the long term health of this passion. Shooters, wait for the mother of all gratuitous assertions, are more likely to buy a new custom action than they are something like a Pre-64 of any flavor... Who would have guessed 10 years ago an action called "The Deviant" would be the MUST HAVE if you are going to be taken seriously as a steel sniper... Nothing wrong with it, just not my cup of tea, however, I see more and more of THIS and fewer and fewer rust blued & French Walnut works hunting rifles. Though the market for the true craft will always be there.

Another small issue, and on this I tend to disagree from experience, however, I defer to Mark when it comes to metal work. He prefers New Haven Classic Model 70s. Specifically, and I detest speaking for someone else, he says the "steel is better". I buy the steel argument with the glaring exception of the fire control. The Sear & Trigger SUCK in comparison to Pre-64 tool steel. We are building a .300 H&H/.375 H&H pair to complement the .270 Win, that he & James Tucker(along with ALL engraving by Roger Kerr) built for Allen Day in 2008 or 2009, and I was lucky enough to blunder into... I have one, a NIB very early Classic in .375 H&H, and I'm looking for another for the .300 H&H. Mark said we could use another early Classic Super Grade in .300 Win Mag I have on the shelf, however, I want them to be a true pair built on New Haven Express Actions. I would love to commission James Tucker to stock this pair as well (in addition to Echol's Legends for rough use hunting) as I have never examined a more perfect piece of sculptured walnut. No wonder Westley Richards had him stock their exhibition rifles a few years back. Unreal work.

In short, I dunno if I would go that route unless I was already a known name in the field. Granted I know two younger gentlemen on this site who I sold a Pre-64 barreled action to one and a Magnum Fill Echols Legend to the other for his .300 Wby built on a Pre-64 H&H action. Hence the market still exists. I just don't know if it is as big as it once was... FWIW & IMHO.

Regards, Matt.

Btw, Pre-64Win.com takes the actions apart and sells them by the part. I have ZERO interest in a non-matching numbers rifle. Granted there may be no "matching numbers" specifically, however, I have no interest in a Pre-64 70 H&H, standard, or fwt for that matter, that did not leave the old Winchester Factory together. I had someone on AR offer me a pre-war H&H and frankly, I was interested UNTIL it became clear it was a parts receiver... Others may not care.

Useful insight. Thanks

Matt, I sure won't be the one in your or any others in the way when you consider Mr. Dixon.

Matt makes some valid points, but the flip side is there are more top notch custom rifle makers in this country than ever before. And they are producing the best rifles the world has seen with one possible exception out of Hamburg, Germany. I really do not think hunting opportunities have much effect on this market. I don't have any figures to back it up, but I would wager that most rifles from top notch makers get used very little in the field. But rest assured, if you can afford a David Miller you can find a place to hunt! I think it was Arnold that said, "there is always something to eat if you are at the top of the pyramid."

I've got one up at Rednecks right now, it had it's rear bridge drilled and tapped to 8-40 screws and God knows where it's original barrel is, it is nothing but a fine action to build on as far as I'm concerned, a McMillan Super Grade stock with standard fill is in the works too, should make a fine 7MM Mashburn Super Mag.

I have an old m70 that got Rednecked into a 280 with a McMillan. I'd love to get a big brother for it, but yeah, those Mag actions are pricey.

Maybe a 9.3x62.....458 Win posted a pic some time back of one that tickled me fancy.

A 280 coupled with a 458 would cover coyotes to deer to bull Elk to Ele.

If you are talking H&H magnum action, then yes. Hell yes and I have the pics to prove it:




A lot of reasons to buy an H&H receiver to build a good rifle on...

Butch,
I've read how fond you are of "Mr. Dixon" in the past. To be honest I can't stand him, however, I have been impressed with some of his work. IF he can pull this off, and I don't plan on being in the first, second, or third batch, I am not going to allow a personal issue stand in the way of testing the waters. May very well be famous last words. Might be an accurate huntable Model 70 I don't have to worry about dinging... May save the money and apply it to Mark's bill. Still find it interesting...


easttex,
I think you missed my point on shrinking public land and the ability of the few to pay for anything they want. As I said I think we are going in the same direction of Germany. Less available land largely squeezing out "handshake hunters" and only leaving room for those who can pay to play. I would obviously concur on the average David Miller, D'Arcy Echols, Stephen Heilmann client is NOT going to be stopped by Hunt/trophy fees. That said it depends on what you hunt. A decent elephant hunt can make the Echols Classic Heavy Sporter almost seem reasonable. I was referring to Bubba, whom I can relate to a point, who is used to asking his local farmer for permission to hunt. Those requests are being denied more and more. I know as I am the landowner who has to soft peddle a "No, I am afraid not." into the conversation with someone who used to be welcome. That said I can't afford to have an errant shot hitting the high-end shopping center OR the multi-million dollar homes that cozy up to my property lines. I'm third generation taking care of what was bought, worked out behind a mule and plow, and passed down. I can't afford a screw-up or a whoops...

Btw, would concur on Hartmann & Weiss...

fwiw & imho.

The current and future value of a custom rifle has nothing to do with how many boxes are checked on the list of options. It has everything to do with the attention to detail, reverence to historical builds and tasteful balanced execution.

Those rifles are superb looking. Don't see how anyone could not want to buy one. Love the walnut stock! It's either English or Bastogne for me....

R

They are refered to as 'safe queens' for good reason, often more about bragging rights and name dropping
than regular hunting with them.... same way women love telling they got their rock from Tiffany.

Some love telling readers how many dollar hrs were spent on meticulous inletting and fancy walnut and cosmetics,
but the DGR then cant pass basic function, because it fails to feed a round during an expensive safari.
when that happens,. action brand,grade of walnut, make of barrel, rust blue and makers popularity on a 'click group'
gun forum dont mean schit.

Best thing that ever happened to working life custom rifles in recent decades is the synthetic stock and rifles like the
Echols Legend. Interesting fact about the Legend is that it came about not as a sales pitch, but result of the repeated
practical request of customers, guys like Allen Day took the leap and never looked back at the termite food versions.

That is a beautiful stock. I really love the lines of it. The grip and transition to butt stock, nose, fore end........it all looks perfect. The wood surely adds to it as well.

Is it your work and pattern?

Thanks MM
Yes, the stock and metal work are all done by me. I make all my own patterns from a blank. The older I get, the more I try and put a (very)little of my own flavor on a classic style that's been around for 100 years. Kind of like a great steak. Start with top shelf ingredients and use a tried and tested method. Never fails. Change the recipe too much and it may be trendy for a while, but the novelty will always wear out.

Your work is exquisite.

JRgunmaker that is my kind of rifle. Very nice. I'm a fan of custom built rifles and have several. IMHO a custom job is just that custom for YOU and you alone. Trying to get your money back from a project is doubtful.

JRGunmaker. That's a beautiful rifle. All the rifles on your website are stunners.

Gorgeous...

Very elegant rifle JR it is like a classic sculpture it will never be out of style. Would you mind telling me how you finished the stock. Fine if it is proprietary. Looks like you used alkanet or it is a piece of Francotte Walnut? The color and figure is perfect, beautiful but not overwhelming.

Tejano
The blank is a piece of California grafted English Walnut I got from Dressels. I've used alkanet with some projects like Butch Lambert's Enfield Rigby, & TC1's Mini Mauser but it's much more work than the process I used on the rifle posted above, process shown below.

Seafin Teak Oil was used seal and to fill pores. Starting by soaking stock using a small acid flux brush and keeping the spots that soak up wet for about an hour then wipe and let dry. Then wet sanding about 3 times with 320 then once with 400 &600 with a day in between. The 320 sanding slurry coats are lightly wiped with a standard paper napkin (not paper towel, too absorbent) across the pores leaving just a little haze above the surface of the wood. Looks terrible in morning. 400 & 600 are only used when the pores are filled, then you can wipe to the surface of the wood. There is no buildup of finish, It's at & in the surface, not on it. I don't use any thinner with the TeakOil. It works great right out of the bottle. I decant the finish into those little airplane booze bottles and fill then to the top. My last stock took about one little bottle. Next step is to let the finish set a week or so making sure it doesn't get cold, then I checker it. After checkering I'll fix any dingbats with teak oil&600. Finish the checkering with a tooth brush & Teak Oil keeping it wet until it stops soaking then blotting/brushing dry. Then use a small piece of 3/16" thick felt with rottenstone & Seafin Teak Oil. It kind of evens out everything. Careful not to fill the checkering with any rottenstone. On the rifle posted above, I mixed a little inletting black with teak oil and tooth brushed it into the checkering on the second coat to darken it a little. Another "clear" top coat over the checkering a day later. Then as you noticed I stained the stock. This time I used Solar-Lux NGR American Walnut with some stain retarder and reducer until it was a little darker than I wanted. Then I used Daly's BenMatte for a wipe on & wait ~15 min & wipe off for around 5 or 6 coats. One coat per day. The Daly's BenMatte does not go in the checkering and I tooth brush around the checkering borders each time to make sure it doesn't build up. BenMatte is a GREAT top coat as it doesn't dry so fast and is buttery smooth when wiping it off. Gives it a nice glow.

Easy as a microwave burrito!

I've got a lot of test blocks around the shop form trying different finishing & staining techniques. I'd recommend testing to others. I don't stain very often.

The OP was looking to build in his spare time to come up with something worth selling. I'm hoping he ends up with a rifle so nice it's worth keeping.

JR:

Thank you and very generous of you to share your expertise and methods. I looked at the photo again and that satin sheen finish is amazing. Need to make this a sticky as you didn't leave anything out. Hope my next one comes out at least a little bit as nice as that rifle. Next one is Claro and thinking I'll need a filler or a whole bunch of coats of varnish just to get started on the oil finish.

Tag for later

RE; Left the Win.factory together, .hmmm.....then pulled apart [ all unwanted factory parts offloaded],. then what remains
is modified inside / out and from one end > to the other....thus it becomes nothing like it was 'originally from the factory'.

Some original Pre64 actions are so crappy [from the factory] that some smiths prefer not to use them.
IF one carefully selected action parts from an array of dissembled actions, one could come up with something noticeably better.




Only one exception and only a possible one at that? ...LOL.

The Pre-64 is definitely a great action. But that’s not the question.

Is it worth putting money into one? Sure, if you intend to keep it put whatever into it, if you are going to use it for 40 years and die with it it’s worth whatever you want to put into it.

Are you going to make a profit? IMHO no way. Custom rifles don’t make money. I also think it interesting guys that purchase rifles because ‘they always make money...’. There’s this thing called inflation that’s a real bitch.