Is this a long integral or a short integral front sight? I think it's short integral, but would like to confirm.

I would call that short.

Yes, short.

Thanks, that's on my "what the heck barrel" - 22" 30-30 on a 285xxx 99F. I showed the rifle in the past, but never clarified whether the front sight was short or long integral.

Your gun isn't alone.

Serial number 284,689 on a 99F:



Serial number 285,149 on a 99G:



Then 99G 286,424:



As compared to 99G 289,942:




And 290,107:

Do you know if those are those all 22"?
Also, is this about the time Savage switched to full-threaded? (I'll have to pull mine out and see what it has).

I suspect you’ll find it’s full thread. David’s book says change occurred about 1920. My 2nd variation Model 250-3000, ser. no. 2085XX is full thread.

Yeah, full threaded happened long before in 1919.

I was just showing that the short integral was normal at that serial number range. The 22" barrel on a 30-30 at that serial number range is the interesting part. And while we know the barrel length was listed as 22" first in the 1927 catalog, that doesn't mean that Savage didn't make the change earlier. Heck, the #63 catalog might have come out in mid-1926 as far as I know rather than 1927.

284,639 is 250-3000 so it's a 22".
285,129 is a 300 Savage, so it's a 24".

So it appears as though the change to the long integral sight was right about 286,000. Unless Rick or somebody has more data on 99E/99F/99G in 303/30-30, we'll have to dig more to pin down the change from 20" to 22". This is about a year earlier than I thought.

The #63 catalogs I have lists the 30-30 as 20" for the 99-E, F & G and 22" for the 99-C & D. A Jan 3, 1927 Jobber's price list has them at 22" and no longer has the 99-C or -D listed.

I think catalog # 63 had to come out sometime in late1924. All I have seen still show the Model 1914 pump with later ones having it marked 'replaced with the Model 25' - I don't have an exact date for the introduction of the Model 25 but a Jan 2, 1925 Wholesale price list has it listed. I have one with a rouges gallery cover with an undated price list still having the 1914, another rouges gallery with undated price list with the Model 1925 and a later bear cover #63 with a Model 25 insert page dated Nov 4, 1926.

Thanks for the correction. I even looked it up in the catalogs and still got it wrong. Feeling under the weather today and obviously my brain isn't firing on all cylinders.

Late 24 or early 25 for the first #63's is my guess also. And I have a late #63 grizzly catalog with a January 3, 1927 pricelist having a May 1st update stamp on it for the 1920/26 rifle pricing, so they were still mailing #63 well into 1927.

So we have a conflict in 1927, the catalog they were mailing said the 99E/99F/99G had 20" barrels for the 303/30-30/22HP, but your jobber price list shows 22".

The oddest thing is that the May 1st, 1927 price list does list the 99C and 99D still. Surprised they didn't remove those if they were gone off the jobber's price list.

One should never trust catalogs too much.



If yours is a 22" featherweight barrel, then I agree with Rick. It's quite possibly a barrel that was profiled for a 99G in 250-3000 and they were put on 99F's. You need to get an early 99G in 250-3000 and see if the barrels match up.

99F in 303 at 281,675 with 20" barrel
deerstalker has a 99G in 30-30 at 282,4xx with 20" barrel (I think I got SN right)
99F in 22HP at 284,291 with 20" barrel with short integral sight
99F in 22HP at 285,512 with 20" barrel and short integral sight

Question for the machinists-how did they make the integral front sight on the barrel?

I agree with Rick, but will also throw out the possibility that the Style 6 barrel address may have started earlier than noted in Murray's book. My 99F 285394 30-30 and a 99G 300 286587 I have a pic of both have a Style 6 barrel stamp. Any other Style 6s seen between these and the 295k start noted by Murray for Style 6?

Just photographed a bunch of photos of front sights with a tape measure. My internet which uses cell phone signal is too slow to load the pics. Probably due to all the tourists (terrorists) in town for the Green River Mountain Man Rendevzous. They are starting to want to move here because of how screwed up things are where they live. They of course will want to change things here to what they had at home because they are too stupid to realize that li

Just photographed a bunch of front sights with a tape measure. My internet which uses cell phone signal is too slow to load the pics. Probably due to all the tourists (terrorists) in town for the Green River Mountain Man Rendevzous. They are starting to want to move here because of how screwed up things are where they live. They of course will want to change things here to what they had at home because they are too stupid to realize that the liberal giveaways and restricting rights is what screwed up things where they are coming from.
I'm really having trouble with the internet or my new computer. Don't know which. That's how this got posted twice while I was still working on this post. It went away in the middle of the word liberal.

David, Starlink is in the process of launching low earth orbit satellites to provide high-speed internet to rural areas. They will likely start beta testing later this year and go commercial next year. It will be fast and affordable (likely under $100/mo) and hopefully free of monthly data caps. I'm currently on satellite internet that has a 50GB/month data cap with slow response (ping time over 600ms) and expensive.

Also, you can use Microsoft Paint (stardard with MS Windows) to reduce the file size of pictures which makes it much faster to upload and still retain decent oniline viewing quality. I used Paint to reduce this picture of the barrel (subject of this post) by 25% and it reduced the file size from 3.5 megabytes to 330kilobyites (almost 10 times smaller).

I’ve only seen three types of milled front sights. The most common is the one Savage used starting in the late 20s and lasting through about the late 50s. It’s the dovetail ramp. The other two are what I call split posts. One is the subject sight and the other I don’t have a picture of. But I think it was used only for a little in the early 20s and, to me, it looks like it was put on backwards. Again, sorry I don’t have a picture of the funny looking backwards split front post sight, but that’s my technical term for it.

Does anyone know how Savage milled these sights? I think that would be a fascinating topic for us engineering nerds. A couple months ago I asked this on the Krag Collectors forum. That is I asked how the split front post Krag sight was installed. Turns out Springfield Armory dovetailed a chunk of steel into the barrel blank early in the machining process and then milled it into shape. I don’t see a seam on 99 barrels like you do with Krags, but as they say, “never say never.” Any thoughts?

I think this is a pic of the backward one you refer to:

"I think this is a pic of the backward one you refer to"

And that one was soldered on. The early ones are attached closer to the end of the brl than typical and makes the brl look as if cut off. I think this is all in David's book. Around 1905-1913.

That would be the one.

my 1899H serial #79.7xx has the backward looking sight. It's real close to the muzzle.
The internet is still too slow for me to post pics. If all those tourists weren't busy texting instead of looking at the Rendezvous activities and the scenery I could post some pics. Maybe later tonight.
I may be looking into that starlight thing Keith. I wonder if I'll be able to use it anywhere. About the only good thing about Verizon's MIFI is that I can use it securely anywhere there is a cell signal.

it's working again.
1899H 25-35 20" lightweight barrel, serial #79.7xx

same rifle Lyman #6 folding sight

same rifle front sight

1899H 22 HP 20" lightweight barrel, serial #1239xx has the same sight as 79.7xx
1899H 22 HP 20" lightweight barrel, serial #1657xx

same rifle rear sight

1899 250-3000 22" lightweight barrel, serial #1900xx

same rifle tang sight. this rifle has the same rear sight as 1657xx

1899 250-3000 type 2, serial # 2349xx 22" lightweight barrel

99G 300 24" barrel, serial #2462xx

Gotta go. post more later

99E 22 HP 20" lightweight barrel, serial #2692xx

99G, 303, 20" lightweight barrel, serial #2780xx, last version of the lightweight barrel sight

99G, 300 24" medium weight barrel, serial #2909xx. First version of the medium weight barrel sight.

99K 250-3000 24" medium weight barrel, 2986xx, slightly different than 2909xx

99K 300, 24" medium weight barrel, serial # 3094xx, a really early example of the integral base that uses the dovetailed front sight. This type of base was used until about 1955.

That's my most favoritter one.

David, You got a bunch of guns and only ONE pair of shoes?

Those are the moccasins I wear around the house. My outside footwear is a well worn pair of Justin ropers. They get switched for something warmer in the Winter. Winter lasted about 8 months this time. Boy am I enjoying the warm weather.
I would rather spend money on guns and hot rods than clothes and modern automobiles. My 15 year Dodge 2500 diesel, 6 speed has almost 290,000 miles and should last me the rest of my life.

After viewing David's pics is it a correct observation that for other than the early early "backward sight", for barrels with integral sights, lightweight barrels have short integral and medium barrels have long integral?


Also, this a pic of the earliest raised ramp sight 99 I have seen.

No, the switch from light weight to medium weight with integral front sight happened within the short production run of the Long Integral front sight period.

My 99G, serial #2780xx has a 20" lightweight barrel with a long base. It is #2 in the second post above. I don't think I've seen another one like it. The serial # places it as 1925 production.

Oh, it's a front sight. The title had me going for a second. I didn't know anybody named Long or Short developed an integral. I primarily dealt with Riemann, Darboux, Stieltjes, Lebesgue and Daniell.

I pulled the blade from this front sight for another reason but it does fit in with this thread, I don't know the exact date of the barrel but if the rear sight is original it has a 1914 patent date.

This show the early adjustable height sight insert, the left side of the blade has fine grooves as does the inside left sight slot. The hole for the attaching screw is open at the bottom so the sight can be insert at different heights. I do not know how long this was used.



The name on the patent for adjustable blade is Francis C Chadwick and not assigned to any company, when I found this I did not associate it with Savage, I was not aware of them using this type insert and did not pay much attention to the inventor. This is from 1905, he may not have been working with Savage in 1905, the first Chadwick patent I found assigned to Savage is from 1907, the patent for the 1899 take-down, he also had a couple more.

" I do not know how long this was used."

It changed in 1927 when Savage went to the raised ramp front sight style. The 99-A,B,C,D and H had front sights that were dovetailed in the barrel . After the switch in 1927 only the 99-H stayed the same while all the others went to the ramped style.


" I don't know the exact date of the barrel but if the rear sight is original it has a 1914 patent date."

Given that it is a .250 brl, I would guess it was from around 1914 to mid-1919.

Rick , I was wondering how long they used the height adjustable grooved inserts, the long integral one on a 1920/26 was not grooved if I remember correctly.

Better picture, just got a 'new' camera yesterday with 2x the resolution of my old one, this time I think I got set right.


PS, these were taken with a used camera off eBay, $17.23 shipped with good batteries and there were some cheaper, when the batteries go I'll just throw it out and get another....

I have not removed a long blade from any of my 99's but there is a factory (blackened German silver) on eBay that is grooved. I shouldn't say that all long blades or that the long sight bases were all grooved as I can't say for sure.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Savage-99-...6?hash=item365a0b81b6:g:QIMAAOSwuMFUdcas

Gene, how tall is that sight from bottom to top?

Kieth, the brass blade is 0.286" overall top to bottom and 0.302 long (measured while removed). I think it original to the barrel, both have remnants of old black paint on them.

The bottom of the slot for it is 0.468" from bore center and the top is 0.596" - so the barrel blank had to start out at least 1.193" diameter to have enough material for it (if that's how it was made so no metal had to be added), the barrel is finished to 1.027". I always 'thought' that these were made bu turning the barrel to size front and back of the sight leaving a ring that was then contoured in a shaper, slotter or similar machine.

I have another one that I know is a replacement in a 22 HP barrel with the silver brazed base that is a lot taller at about 0.350" - I think that is a lot taller than needed for that gun, it has enough grooves that it could be shortened. It's just a little longer at 0.313". I also have some inserts hiding somewhere.

Thank you, Gene!