...in two easy steps.

My friend John called me a minute ago and sent me the photo of his beloved 99R in 300.





We went to the range today and he tried to feed a cartridge into the chamber and it didn't make it all the way in, about an 1/8" short, and it jammed up. This was on his fifth shot, all single loaded into the chamber straight from the ammo box. Same batch he'd been firing in this rifle and others for years with no length problems. Yes, handloads.

Since he didn't have any way to clear the chamber he moved on to other guns and figured he'd deal with it later. We fired another 30 or more rounds of the same ammo today in other 300's with no trouble.

When he got home he shoved a cleaning rod down the bore and tried to push it out. No go. When that didn't work he tapped the rod with a wooden mallet and the result is what you see here. The action was open. The cleaning rod wedged in the bore (he said it looked "noodled"/micro bends) and didn't allow the bullet to exit the muzzle. Everything blew out the open action and out the bottom. He has a piece of something in his hand and is shell shocked but otherwise unhurt.

Only thing we can figure is he compressed the primer cup from above with the tapping action of the mallet driving the bullet down in the case and she went ka-blewy. I've not had a cartridge stick in the chamber like that so I'm at a loss to explain why he had one fail to fully enter the chamber. Could he have gotten debris from the last shot fired in the chamber or throat? ? He must have really tried to horse it in to get it so tightly wedged.

Anyway, if you want to blow up a Savage in two easy steps, tightly wedge a cartridge in the chamber and then tap on the bullet with a cleaning rod and a mallet.

Which brings us to the question, how would you recommend a live round be cleared? Like I said, I've never had a round fail to enter, so it's not something I've ever thought about.

Ouch!

I had that happen once when I had a handload that was neck sized only in one gun and tried to put it in another gun. The chambers did not match. Not even close.

$30 to the gunsmith to remove it, if I remember right.

He told me he used hydraulic pressure to push it out. Don't know if that's the "normal" way or not. He said he'd had to do it often.

Wow. I'm glad you're friend is ok.

I wonder if putting the rifle in a deep freeze for awhile would help. That's the only way I can think of to shrink the metal. Might be enough to get it loose, or might not work at all.

I was wondering if the plastic tip came off the Barnes bullet on the way into the chamber and jammed everything up???

We handload his ammo at my house so I know we don't have a neck sizing die for the 300. All Savage lever gun brass gets full length resized. But we're not ruling out a case problem yet.

Other than th stock being [bleep] up, is the rifle damaged?

Hmmm. Glad your buddy wasn't seriously injured. There's the fact that a benchrest shooter was killed a few years ago when doing the same trick- the cleaning rod pierced her.

Your possible explanation of a kernel of powder piercing the flash hole sounds kind of plausible. One farfetched idea that struck me was could've the striker bounced a little inside the bolt from the impact of the hammering, just enough to detonate the primer?

Another thought: disassemble the bolt and see what's going on inside it. Broken firing pin?

As to what may have caused the jam, I'm clueless beyond what's been suggested. Dirt/debris?

I would examine that action with a very critical eye before putting it back into service. It experienced enough violence to push the bolt back and out to bust the stock and shed the cutoff, such that stuff in general may be tweaked.

Do you have access to a borescope with which to take an intimate look at the chamber/throat? Could be though that any foreign object that could've caused the jam would've been dislodged in the explosion.

Ouch. Glad he's alright.

-Jake

Glad he is alright! That is a freak accident for sure. Reminds us all to be careful

I get an occasional stuck live round come up the driveway, I fashioned a tool steel awl from a small long round file. Slowly and gingerly twist the awl on the live primer cup until a small hole pierces the primer, which is then flooded with penetrating oil to 'kill' the primer. Then proceed as normally to remove the stuck case.

WOW!
Thanks for sharing and I'm glad your friend is alright. Certainly a great reminder to be extra careful!

Bearrr264 blew up a Savage 99 that someone had rechambered from 300 to 308. I remember that several "experts" wrote that it couldn't happen that way, but the results looked a lot like the picture, except that both sides of the stock were blown out.

Roy, so the bolt was almost closed (1/8" still to go) and he could not lever the bolt back, so the bolt as still up against the base of the cartridge?

Is there a way to get the bolt back off the cartridge when the a cartridge is stuck like that?

WOW!

In the last few years i have noticed bullet creep in some of my reloads. I never attempt to chamber a round that has resistance . Hate spilled powder in the action and such. I did have a stuck round on a ar that i couldnt morter loose. Gingerly drove the bullet into the case and then poured oil into the muzzle , left it over night and drove it out the next day.
If in the R the bullet had crept forward , jammed in the rifiling, and some smut got into the extractor cut, that ould lock up the thing like fort knox.
What touched it off i dont know and never want to find out first hand! Possible a spark from the rod if steel, glad he still has his fingers.

Wow,
if the bolt was up (I'm a little unclear on this) then I suspect the cartridge could have been hammered into the firing pin. Given the force of the hit also tripped the trigger.

Strange stuff happens but in the case of firearms it can be deadly. Glad the shock only was to the stock and senses and not the body.

Nobody has ever removed live primers from brass?

Eventually you'll get one to go off by exerting enough pressure from the inside as you push it out. Wear eye protection.

I have removed stuck rounds before using a rod to push the live round out of the open breech and never considered this possiblity.

Thank you for the heads up.

I just had another thought. If you remember from high school physics class, a rapidly compressed column of air gets hot. I wonder if maybe the act of hammering on that bullet created enough of that phenomenon to get hot enough ignite the powder? Just wondering.

That was my thinking as well.

True confession time, pertaining to heat (and not much of it relatively speaking) detonating a cartridge.

Long ago in a galaxy far away, I was in the basement pulling bullets out of some old .25-20 Single Shot cartridges to salvage the brass to make R2 Lovell's out of them. All went swimmingly until I got to the very last one which refused to budge. Sooo, I got the bright idea of drilling a tiny hole down through the tip of the jacketed bullet with the idea of running a tiny Easy-Out in to twist it free. I know, I know. With the cartridge held snugly in a chuck, I didn't get maybe barely through the bullet with the bit, when BANG! The case ruptured like a banana peel, the primer went God knows where, and mysteriously the bullet disappeared too. Never found it. Thankfully not a mark on me, but I had some 'splainin' to do with the wife.

Heat was the only possible explanation because the bit didn't go barely beyond the bullet base, certainly not deep enough to engage the primer. That ruptured case remains in view on my loading bench to this day 40 years later as a constant reminder to not be a dumbass.

Yes?? this is the impression i had too. that the extractor was engaged on the rim, then that might explain the bolt/lever being stuck in nearly-cocked position with the case not quite chambered?? I might have tried yanking the lever open, even at the risk of wrecking the extractor, the firing pin would have been moving away from the primer with every action.

Still glad it turned out for the best with your friend, that's the bottom line in all of this.., too close to serious for me.

I just had a similar jam last Friday without the KaBoom. 358 Brush Gun and handloads with the 200 gr Hornady spire point and a compressed powder charge. 2nd round of the day, when I pulled the trigger, I got 'click'. Figured it was a misfire, waited a minute and tried to eject the round. The lever dropped a little but then it wouldn't move. I could close it but couldn't open it very far at all.

Took the gun home, took off the stock and looked closely. The back of the bolt was dropping out of engagement with the rear of the receiver so I grabbed a straight blade screw driver and there was enough clearance at the front of the bolt to insert it between the bolt and the front of the receiver and gently pry the bolt backwards.

The case came back minus the bullet which dumped the powder into the magazine. The bullet was stuck in the rifling bad enough I had to use a light tap on the cleaning rod with a hammer to get it out, couldn't do it with just my hand. I held the rifle upside down and used a can of compressed air to blow the powder out of the magazine.

The bullet had marks from the rifling on it. I measured the other 16 rounds in the box, all were a touch under the OAL limit. I'm guessing bullet creep from the compressed powder charge caused that one round to be too long. But I've loaded to that length for a couple of years now, with no problems. I used to seat the bullets deeper and never had any problems then either.

I was at the range on Tuesday, everything worked just the way it is supposed to. Anyhow, glad the other guy is OK. Glad I'm OK too!

Dale

I talked to John today. He said he dug some plastic out of his finger. Jag or bullet tip I don't know.

To answer some questions-

The bolt was open when he tapped on the cartridge.

He did get very aggressive with the lever trying to get it closed. It was wedged in there tight, somehow, against whatever it was.

He was single loading them, so no bullet creep.

I haven't seen the rifle, so I don't know how badly it's damaged. He thinks the rotor is bent.

Anything I missed?

If the bullet was rapidly driven farther into the case of a already compressed load the pressure in the case would have risen exponentially possibly causing the primer or the powder or both to detonate.

Member when we were kids and used to hit the the whole roll of pop gun caps with a hammer?

Ker-Pow.

The bolt was open, not up against the cartridge. I assume he pulled the lever back down hard enough the extractor was able to pull over the rim of the cartridge. How else could he get it open? Maybe the extractor never engaged, I really don't know. I've not studied that.

Gary, as far as things being tweaked and all, I'd retire that gun if it was mine, just on general principle. How in the world could anyone ascertain what damage may have been done, and why risk it? Just buy another one, they're plentiful. He just loves this one in particular because he got his biggest blacktail ever with it. You guys may remember this photo of me with his 99R and buck. We spotted him about 600 yards away and I guided John to within about 60 yards and the R made a good shot. He was a dandy.

You're a brave man.

Dale K's comment on the brush gun is interesting. I tried to load some heavy for caliber, probably 250 grain, pointed bullets for my brush gun and the powder was compressed to the point that it was pushing the bullet back out as soon as I took them out of the reloading press. I went to something lighter but wasn't getting good accuracy. Some day I'll try some other loads. I want to sell the gun but won't let it go till I know the bad accuracy was the loads and not something wrong with the rifle. This incident is scary. I've pushed a few stuck bullets out with a cleaning rod.

The fact that the bolt was open certainly saved him from serious injury or possibly worse. If the bolt had been closed the force of the explosion would have had only way way to escape.

Up the barrel.

But then again how would you get the live round out with the bolt closed?

I'm just happy for your buddy he wasn't seriously injured.
I know I'm the odd duck here, but that is one reason I do not shoot reloads.
My buddy has been reloading for years. He loves it and appears quite good at it. He's very detail oriented.
He got a new rifle a number of years ago and brought it and his hand loads to Montana Deer and Elk hunting. He went to unload his rifle one morning to get back in the truck and the bullet stayed in the chamber and dumped powder in the action. No cleaning rod in the truck and he was done for the day. Apparently the OAL was a hair+ too long.
I loaned him a handful of my factory loads and he was good to go the next day........

I would dispute those 4 words.

If someone would like to point out the flaw in the reloading program I would be very grateful so it could be avoided in the future.

He had a cartridge fail to chamber by, in his words, about an 1/8". I'm not seeing an 1/8" as a reloading procedural problem. Ammunition is built in batches, not one a day over the course of months, with the dies constantly being reset between single loadings, thereby introducing the potential for operator error.

The dies are set, a batch is produced at those settings. As mentioned, this batch of ammunition was being used in three different 300 Savages that day. I helped him sight in his sons and grandfathers 300's while he sighted in this 99R. He had already fired several rounds when he had this one fail to chamber. He took it home and blew the gun up at home.

If it has to do with the reloads, I need to understand how. Of course we considered the possibility, but so far can't make a connection.

Maybe *more crimp on the bullet would have prevented the bullet from pushing into the case? Maybe that's the answer?

Apparently!
He "blew it".

Yep, the more I think about it, the more that makes sense. A heavily crimped bullet would completely eliminate the possibility of primer ignition from compression of the powder column inside the case.

What do you all think of that?

The initial problem was why it didn't chamber all the way.

Likely problems: case wasn't properly resized down, the bullet was extended too far forward, or there was something in the chamber. I'd say #1/#2 are most likely based on watching a lot of guys shoot at the range. Never seen anybody with something in the chamber.. seen a number of bad reloads.

The actual explosion I still think was most likely from the force of pounding on the bullet. I don't think more crimping would help for a bullet that's seriously jammed in, brass is soft enough to push in with enough force.


Prime 200 empty cases. Then start depriming them. See if any go off from pressure pushing down on the primer.

I'm betting that cartridge had its bullet seated way too far out and it jammed solidly into the leade when he tried to chamber it. Most likely cause: inadvertently short stroking the press handle. The fact that he couldn't subsequently eject the cartridge says that bullet fit in those cartridges was/is pretty darn tight, so crimping would've been superfluous (and would be in future with the same lot of brass/bullets). Normally in a situation like that the bullet stays put- jammed into the leade- and the case pulls away from it when ejection is attempted, unless like now it was inordinately tight in the case neck.

Any cartridges left over from that batch? If so, maybe it's time to start pulling bullets to see if I'm all wet with this conjecture. Mic the neck wall thicknesses and inside diameter of necks (maybe after running a couple back through the sizing die to get a true pre-seating measurement), and compare to the bullets y'all were using. You only need a couple thousandths interference fit to secure a bullet in a case neck.

Compressed powder charge that could've pushed the bullet back out of the case too far? It happens. But then the case would've shucked itself off the bullet upon attempting ejection.

It would seem you guys experienced a perfect storm of small things that added up to a catastrophe. Just what each of those small things were remain a mystery.

Me neither. Unless they were shooting in the middle of a sand storm, not likely.

While I know this can happen, I don't think it happened in this case. If the bullet was stuck in the lands and the bolt was open, hammering it out wouldn't have pressed the bullet into the case. Seems like the case itself was wedge in the chamber somehow with the bullet free and able to move.



Agreed. We'll probably never know.

How about case length?

An 1/8" too long? Never. Not. Ever. Brass is trimmed in batches as well.




Picture this. Cartridges side by side in one of those plastic ammo boxes, 50 per. A sea of pretty brass and blue tips sticking up. Except for that one. It's an 1/8" taller than the rest. And we didn't notice it when we loaded it, or subsequently at any time the box was opened.

Uh, no.

Are you saying the hot drill bit ignited the powder? Only other explanation would be the rotary movement of the bit somehow interacting with the gunpowder in such a way to ignite it. Don't know exactly how gunpowder works. Who wants to experiment with a hammer and drill? LOL

This is how I interpret it too.

The most likely debris to me would be the blue tip off the bullet. I know Hornady had this problem for awhile, I don't know if Barnes did or not.

Since he was single loading, would it be possible that the extractor didn’t get over the rim so that the bolt pushed the cartridge into the chamber at an angle and jammed things up?

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To apply to be on the show, send in three end flaps off of Remington Corelokt .300 ammo boxes and an essay on "How I Plan to get a 400 Pound Bear Three Miles Back to the Trailhead. Alone."

Hosted by: Rick99 (he can't be bribed)

Sponsored by: Gnoahhh's Ammunition. "It Usually Works"

What he says about the compressed powder pushing the bullet back out is what I believe my problem was, just took longer to develop. And only seems to have been in one case. Maybe a thinner neck put less tension on bullet, I don't know. But I do know it's the first time I had this problem in over 40 years of reloading.

When you do get around to loading for your brush gun again, give TAC or Reloder 7 a whirl, they both fit into the case pretty well and leave room. I'm currently using IMR 4320, I understand it is discontinued so when my supply is gone, that's probably the route I will take.

Dale

I have been reading this thread for what seems to be DAYS. I just keep shaking my head wondering 2 things. The first thing is what the hell does this have to do with Savage "collecting". This being the least of concern. The other thing is, I as well, have been reloading for well OVER 40 years. I use an RCBS Rockchucker press and all of my components are also RCBS with the exception of a set of Lee dies for 38-55 and a set of Redding dies for 7mm-08, 22 Sav HP, 444 Marlin and 45-70.

I full length size EVERYTHING. I also chamfer EVERY case mouth. I ONLY load flat base bullets. I never load hot loads for any caliber. During the bullet seating process, I can tell INSTANTLY if I missed a chamfer or if the neck is not reduced properly. I can just feel it.

When I am on the bench, only one load at a time goes into the gun. If I try chambering a round and I feel ANY resistance, I STOP and set the round aside. The only way I can see this incident happening is that force was applied in an effort to fire this round. The extractor engaged the rim and enough force could not be applied from the lever to get it out of the chamber.

That being said, I would NEVER hammer on a live round from any direction, NOR would I I use a sharp tool to dig at a live primer that is the source of ignition to a cartridge loaded with powder and a stuck round in a chamber.

I understand how frustration sets in, and thoughts run wild, but this is a perfect example ( with a happy ending) of how NOT to do things.

I am certain everyone that handles a gun has had at least one accidental discharge, but this was for the most part, not an accident.

Again, I am sorry if I offended anyone.

If we talked about nothing but pure "collecting" (and define "collecting" by-the-by)), there would be nothing but the sound of crickets chirping here for days/weeks on end. We've discussed all aspects of 99's ad nauseum and need to branch out a bit to keep the camaraderie going. This forum long ago morphed into more than just discussion about a narrow field of gunnery.

Why limit yourself to only flat based jacketed bullets? There's a whole world of choices out there. I for one choose the bullet that best meets the occasion, be it flat based cup-and-core, boat tail, monolithic, or cast lead. Narrow devotion to a singular approach is anathema to me. My gear is a bewildering assortment of equipment from many manufacturers- selection thereof based on what is best for the task at hand. The common thread at my bench is a devotion to anal retentive routine when loading, no matter the components and tools being used.

Sure, we've all had close calls of some sort. The thing is did we learn from them? Tossing around ideas, spitballing possible causes/solutions, getting to the bottom of an issue, etc. is one way how we humans learn to avoid having similar issues. No man is an island.

Everyone has a different outlook. Mine simply has a freewheeling aspect, with a healthy dose of open-mindedness mixed in, mixed with a sense of humor about the human condition.

John's not here to be offended. Hopefully you read the part about it weren't the Fireball blowin up Savages, or am I guilty by association?

The reloading really isn't the story, and I'm not sure what RCBS and flat based bullets have to do with anything. Chamfering case mouths is standard protocol. I don't know why John tried to horse the cartridge into the chamber. I promise you he won't be doing it again. Nor will he be tap tap tapping on a stuck round with a cleaning rod and a mallet.

I just posted it as an FYI, for which several members were thankful, while you apartently are just bewildered. I too have been loading for 40 YEARS, without incident. Again, it's not about the reloading, it's the tap tap tap ke-blewy that I find perplexing. In total agreement about NOT drilling into a live primer!

I thought it was a good discussion and a good thread.

Nuff said.

Me too! And I'm not saying any more.

Any chance a primed .308 case may have been accidently picked up by mistake and loaded and this was reason case got stuck going into chamber? A .308 case is .144" longer than a .300 Savage case, close to estimated .125"( 1/8"). Not sure how much leverage is needed to get a .308 case stuck in a .300 Savage chamber, I've seen some pretty determined people when it comes to goofing things up. A lever gun may actually provide more leverage to get a .308 struck in a .300 chamber than about any other type firearm.Same case head, you may not even notice it while seating bullet.

Was there enough of the case head found to identify cartridge designation one way or the other or are we not allowed to discuss this anymore? Still kind of curious one way or the other.

It gives me the willies (not the Jeep) .



Its ok . We'll provide them with a safe space and a therapy dog . And if that's not enough , we'll get them some Thorazine .

Waaalllllll-I typed in a comment several days ago, had it all done, went to review for my normal gaffs, but somehow deleted the whole thing. Thought I'm not going to sit and redo now. My comment was one that happened to me and have heard of others doing also. When I first started loading for 250 Savage in a Ruger 77 bolt gun, the bullets I was using were some with a channel lure. Have read you can if wanted put a slight crimp on them to hold the bullet still during recoil. After I got the lot of 50 rounds loaded, wiped, and boxed, it was several days before I had a chance to shoot em. The first dozen or so went smooth and were pretty accurate at 50 and 100 yds. I finally ran across one that wouldn't let the bolt close all the way, maybe a 1/4" of the rear of the brass showing. Ejected it, set aside, shot some more, ran across another one that wouldn't chamber, ejected it, and continued to shoot the remaining rounds. I found five that all failed to insert fully-all but the last approx 1/4". The powder charge was a middle of the road from Hornady's newest book.

Checking them real close and using a micrometer, I discovered that the mouth of the brass where I had crimped them was bulged slightly, not enough to really wave a red flag at your eyeballs but there. When I first started seating the bullets and then went back to crimp, I recalled that the first handful I thought maybe had to much crimp had been applied and backed off the die. I later pulled the bullets and resized the brass, trimmed, put powder back in and reseated bullets in a later load session. Those five shot fine.

Said all this to say this, is it possible that the mouth of the cartridge in question bulged a bit during the seating of the bullets. Wonder if the bullet was crimped during seating and was bulged? Possible that the cartridge in question had a overall length a bit longer than the rest and the bullet when seating bulged the upper neck area a bit when the bullet was seated. Wonder if when resizing , the neck expander didn't do its job and the case neck just didn't get expanded to its proper diameter and was a tad under, making a tighter fit for the bullet, putting a bulge on it which caused it to jam once the upper end of the round reached the upper end in the chamber? Who knows, Murphy's Laws are always possible with everything. The five 250 Savage rounds that I messed up on all extracted with no problem, but one was stuck in the chamber a bit more and required a little more 'Ooomph' to bring the bolt back. Could this had happened to the round that got stuck, a slightly bulged upper neck area caused the round to really stick? Just my thoughts. Who knows why it detonated????? Glad no serious injury.

Fireball2: I have had VERY little to do with savage 99 Rifles I just wanted to post and relay how thankful I am your friend was not hurt any more than he was!
And I agree with SS396 - be careful and seek "professional advice" when uncertain.
Now I am NOT being critical of your friend at all - but I would not even THINK ABOUT pounding on a partially chambered LIVE round with hammer and metal rod!
OMG!
Again I am thankful his balls weren't blown off.
Thanks for sharing.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

This is a good topic. I just removed a live round from my ar with a brass cleaning rod. It came out very easily with hand pressure, and I never gave it a second thought. Never figured it could go off as I was on the bullet, not the primer. I am not a reloader, but have shot for over 40 years, and this is the first time I have had this happen. Glad your buddy is ok. Glad I am ok too! Lesson learned, guns are dangerous! Handle with caution.

Speculation, short stroke resizing leaving area near the case head too large. This area was jammed into the chamber from first and repeated unsuccessful attempts to close action. Might be a tight fit considering the OP says they were shooting multiple rifles chambered in 300Sav. From this I have to assume reloads were also from a variety of rifles with slightly different chambers.

The round being lodged so tight in the chamber would require some sharp blows from the muzzle end to free. If the round was still held by the bolt inertia from the blows may have pushed the firing pin spring back just enough to allow it to come forward and ignite the primer. The blows may have also pushed the primer out of the pocket slightly resulting in a close relationship between bolt face and primer.

Pure speculation. Just an idea. I’ve recently encountered similar feeding issues neck sizing brass from the same rifle. Bolt hangs up close to getting into battery. Difficult to reverse and get round back out. Haven’t had to drive any out from the muzzle but they where tight! I’m FL sizing for the rifle now.

Very interesting thread for me, I’ve learned from reading through what has been presented.

The bolt was open.

Missed that reading through the thread I guess. Oh well, good thread anyway. Made me think through the process’s of reloading and shooting. Good mental exercises.