Well, got my first number searches back. Just as they said, it provides what's only on the ledger line. No interpretation.

No major surprises, except that a 1901 SR was recorded as having pistol grip but not $5 checkering - but it does. A very early 1899 showed an interesting entry that the gun was sold to one company by another. That's interesting. Usually the ledger would only record the company it was shipped to. I wonder if they misinterpreted a return and second sale?

Anyway, here's a sample of what you get. I lettered a 1920 1899A SR which has an intriguing brand/stamp/marking on the side panel (16 Co), and it's confirmed as an SR by the 22" barrel with shotgun buttplate.

That specific gun is interesting.. it's a well used SR that's been d&t, but it has an intriguing "16 Co" brand/stamp on the side panel. Gray rat that shoots 1" groups easily. Gotta love it. So now I know a bit more in that it was originally shipped to Kansas City, which was the home of Townley Hardware - but that's all. It's very possible it was a ranch gun (the SR's catalogued name was Saddle Gun, after all), and the "16 Co" meant something to them.

The Savage Factory Records indicate who the gun was sold to, Winchester Factory Records usually indicate an Order number.

What might a fella expect to see if requesting factory letters on 99’s from 1933 – 1958 ?

Savage pistols from 1910-11 and 1920 ?

I have a 1904 Boys rifle from 1904 I’d like to letter also . I was told it was at the Worlds Fair either at the Ozarks shooting gallery or displayed at the booth . I'd like to find out for sure .

On 1899's : After 1937 will be a crap shoot. There's a gap after November, 1937 where you'll probably only get a ship date - no model, no cartridge, no destination. Then in the early 40's they might be able to confirm model and chambering - but not sure. They stop lettering at 1946, we aren't sure what happened to the records for the Chicopee Falls guns.

They'll do pistols up to SN 259,472. You'll be told what's in the ledger. No idea what that might be.

They will also 1904's up to 192,231 - you'll be told what's in the ledger. Again, no idea what that might be, but I would expect it to be similar to 1899's for accepted date, ship date, destination. Might have a note in there about expo, won't know until you letter it.

I've seen ledger pages that denote 1899 rifles as shipped to "New York Exposition" so there is a possibility a Model 1904 could show as shipped to St. Louis Expo.
edit: However, I think it was the Model 1903 slide action that was the gallery gun at Hunting in the Ozarks.

I thought rifles from about 371,200 to 400,000 could not be lettered at all. So there is ship date info for all of them them in that range?

From my Callahan letter: "The last listed serial number, just prior to the gap is 371200. That rifle was made in November, 1937. After this, Savage devoted practically the entire plant to WWII contracts. Because of the intensity of this work, the limited sporting arms production was done as conveniently and as simply as possible. This of course meant that the serial records also were simplified by only listing the shipping order number only in most cases."

So there is a ledger entry, but it only has a shipping order number. If they can find the shipping order, they can tell you a ship date. Even if they can't find it, they can probably give you a date range. Like my 1945 rifle, all he was able to say was it shipped in mid-1945. I can't make any promises for what Cody might do in that case, obviously.

Well, I'll add on the Cody factory letter that I got back. Matches the rifle, except the ledger apparently doesn't note that it's a half-octagon rifle.

Notice they don't confirm it's a 303 Savage? That's because early ledgers don't record if it's a 303 Savage - that was presumed to be the default. They only record if it's something other than 303 Savage. I think this is something that Callahan would have interpreted for us, but Cody doesn't. Nice to have the barrel confirmed as 24". It's not logged as a "Leader Grade" because it's about a 8-12 months too early for a Leader Grade. but it has the same features.

Another interesting thing is that it has the second style "B" checkering that is the flame checkering, but the first style "B" that has simpler fleur-de-lis by the side panels continues to show up in 1903 and is what's shown in the 1903 catalogs. Seems like they had two "B" checkering styles for a year or so in 1903.

Loggah has a similar rifle with all the features except engraving that was accepted 4 months earlier than this. Apparently Tue was backlogged.

Mr. Padgham must have been a Dapper Dan kind of guy! Nice 1899.

I was hoping to get to Cody this week but the weather is looking dicey again. That letter isn't bad except that it doesn't mention the half octagon. My conversation with them is that they don't understand a lot of the abbreviations. Maybe that's why the barrel type was omitted. I will also talk to them about the caliber thing.

It's totally possible it's just logged wrong in the book. They are seeing that it's logged as "Round", they wouldn't include that line if they didn't see an R in the ledger. And they also correctly told me an early 1899C with shotgun buttplate was logged as half-octagon.

with Savage never say never

The ledger entries are what they are. I'm at about a 50% rate on letters/searches with one or more features weren't logged. One missing A3 checkering, another missing half-octagon barrel, another missing engraving/checkering/fancy wood.

When I get into doing searches on more normal guns, obviously fewer things will be missing.

Jessica Bennet/Records Specialist lettered a Winchester for me about 10 years ago. Had some email chatter thereafter. The record specialists at Cody have been very knowledgeable and helpful. They seemed like historians interested in what they do. They just need training. Probably a series of training sessions. No one could explain or comprehend Savage Arms or the ledgers in one sitting.
David, I hope you are meeting with Records Specialist when you do get to Cody.
They seem like good students of the game.
Who knows? Maybe in 5-10 years they'll be up to snuff.
Good luck!

Cody takes their mission very seriously.

Did I miss something where they are obviously not up to snuff? Just curious. They are quite clear that they are only going to report what's recorded in the ledger, they will not fill in blanks or try to interpret anything not recorded.

I can reverse engineer what this line looks like.

Line 1: "Type: Rifle"
It's in the Savage 1895/1899/99 ledgers, thus it's a rifle
Line 2: "Barrel Type: Round"
There's an R on the line
Line 3: "Barrel length: 24 inches"
There's a 24" on the line
Line 4: “Pistol grip stock”
There’s a “P/G” or “Pistol Grip” on the line.
Line 5: "Fancy American Walnut"
There's a "Fan. Amer. Wal." or something very close written on the line
Line 6:"Engraved B"
There's a "Eng. B" or something very close written on the line
Line 7: "Checkered B"
There's a "Ckd. B" or something very close written on the line
Line 8-10: Date accepted/shipped/sold to is pretty clear.


Based on this one, I'd say they are as up to snuff as Savage Arms ever got. Truthfully, probably better than Savage Arms ever got.

Originally it was assumed to be a blued, straight grip, solid frame rifle with crescent butt, walnut stock, 26" brl and in .303 Savage caliber unless otherwise noted.

Yep, and a FWT entry automatically means it has a hard rubber buttplate unless noted, and a 250 entry prior to 1921 automatically means it's a takedown and checkered and pistol grip, and I presume if it's logged as "Leader" that they won't list B engraving and B checkering and fancy American walnut.

I don't believe Cody will ever fill in the "automatic" things. They don't want to, they consider their job as just relaying what's in the ledger.

In one of my searches they did on winchester years ago they had the rifle as solid frame when it was a takedown!!! someone screwed up.

For someone not schooled in Savage Levers the Cody letter/search might leave many questions unanswered.

Absolutely agree there.


Does Winchester ledgers have the same reputation as Savage ledgers for being... not totally complete?

Yes, but i believe there more legible then the cluttered savage ones.

1) The comment ""obviously not up to snuff" was made by you. Not me.
2) I don't need/want you to reverse engineer anything. I would like context associated with a letter. Like Roe & JTC did. And Cody can do that with some schooling.
3) If Cody is up to snuff, then why did they contact David and ask for his input?

The point of the message is that the ledgers are for 1895, 1899, 99, pistols, .22's, bolts, shotguns and probably more.
Possessing the ledgers does not make Cody experts. Understanding them does. And this will take time and effort from Cody, David and others.

I think we agree that education/schooling of Cody is in order.
Don't care what the definition of snuff is.

Roe didn't always do "context", many of his letters were before Murray coined the 1899 model names and so his letters often just report what's in the ledger. I do think he'd fill in the "303 Savage" and "26 inch barrel" in the letter when it was empty in the ledger, but that was usually all.

Here's a Roe Clark letter for a very similar rifle. The only additional context he put in that probably wasn't in the ledger that I can see is that it was in 303 Savage.

I'll be meeting with Jessi the historian and Danny the curator.
People aren't born with info already in their heads. They need to learn from others who have more knowledge on the subject and to study the subject if possible. When I was in school back in the dark ages we had teachers or professors who gave us the book learning and we went on field trips to see what they were teaching us.
The last time I was at the museum they didn't have much of a variety of Savages. If they could visit Doug Foglio or Dave Trauth and spend days with their rifles and the ledgers side by side they could become experts. They were studying the Collector's Guide so that was a step in the right direction but they need more input than the collector's guide gives on the subject. If my new book was out they would have more facts to help them.
I'll be using my inventory list and the info I've gathered researching my new book to help explain the ledgers to them. I'll also tell them they are welcome to come here to my house to study my collection.

It's always good to teach new people about Savage's, I'm sure they'll enjoy it.

But they told me last fall, they told me this spring - they aren't going to do anything on searches and letters except tell people what's in the ledger. That's all they do on any ledger entry from any manufacturer. So it will be interesting to see if you can make any headway on telling them to start filling in stuff that's not recorded.