358 rotary magazine 99 in 99CD wood, serial number JW007. Got to think it's an R&D gun, just not sure what they were trying to do here.
Now, the 99CD was offered from '75-'80. The mystery 99F's in 358 that occasionally show up date to 1974. Possibly there's a relation between the two? Maybe considering a 99FD as well as a 99CD, or upgraded 99DL? No medallion in the stock or on the pistol grip, so in that regard the stock is identical to the 1975 99CD.
I don't have a picture of the serial number, though I can see that there's something stamped on the bottom of the receiver. So I'd guess it's underneath. Hmm, not normal for 1969+ 99's.
![[Linked Image from cdn.rockislandauction.com]](https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/1039/61-b-4.jpg)
The 99-358 (Brush Gun) came out in 1976. Maybe... this was a prototype for that? It had the finger groove forearm, the recoil pad, early ones even had a monte carlo stock. Would just have to lose the pistol grip and cheek piece.
This looks like a job for Ron Coburn.
I like the 007 part!
Can you tell if there is a medallion in the right toe or grip cap? Barrel markings might be of help/interest.
Too early for Ron, he came in a decade or so after this. Callahan would have been there, but I don't think R&D was his department at that time.
And screwed up the serial number.... JW700, not JW007.
Can you tell if there is a medallion in the right toe or grip cap? Barrel markings might be of help/interest.
No medallion in the stock or on the pistol grip, so in that regard the stock is identical to the 1975 99CD.
I'm not sure the barrel has any stamps on it. The 358 isn't stamped in the normal place, guessing it might be on top?
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1039/61/two-savage-model-99-lever-action-rifles
Someone like me would look at this piece and think it was something someone cobbled together. I love reading this information. Thanks guys
Someone like me would look at this piece and think it was something someone cobbled together. I love reading this information. Thanks guys
We'd all be thinking that as well, except for the serial number. There's still the chance that the stock was just added later and had nothing to do with the action.
It's not a hard gun to look at like some of the others from the same period were...
Someone like me would look at this piece and think it was something someone cobbled together.
Someone = Savage Arms.
Roe Clark had a pieced together 75th Anniversary model, numbers of octagonal barrels from the anniversary models have appeared on other rifles.
Savage did this as one offs, survival or who knows what, but they did it. They don't fit squarely into known model/variations today or even what Savage advertised.
Or, someone down stream created it.??
I dunno, but the white spacers are red flags to me. JMO.
There is a medallion on the grip cap. Go to full sceen on the linked auction photos; can be seen on a couple of the photos.
Interesting in general for sure, but a little late to be interesting to me. It is unusual.
Back in the late 1980;'s and early 1990's 99CD wood wasn't hard to come by. I have a few sets set aside and used one on a 99 varmint rifle parts gun in 250-3000 that features a 99EG receiver and a recycled Ruger 77V 25-06 barrel.
Keith pointed out that there may be a medallion on the pistol grip cap, and that the rifle has a gold trigger which was generally discontinued in 1970.
Kudos to Keith.
That actually might explain what the gun is... gold trigger means 1970 or earlier. No barrel boss means 1970 or later, because all 358's in the 60's had barrel bosses (99F, 99DL). So.. maybe a R&D gun to try the new barrel profile, or just to take pictures. Stock added 1975 or later, or by an owner (as Jeff says, stocks are out there).
I don't get R&D guns. Make a special gun just for photo shoots? Yeah maybe, because of great wood on it, but why the special serial number?
When I think of R&D I think new cartridge or something. I like the idea that they threw them off the top of the building or ran over them with trucks too. Makes more sense.
Rory, auction says it is a 22" barrel, so that rules out one of those Westfield 24" 358 barrels we've seen on some of those 70s F-like rifles.
I kind of figured that when you spotted the gold trigger. That'd be much earlier than the 1974.. but it's another stake through that thought's heart.
And maybe it's not an R&D gun at all... maybe it was just made by an employee with the initials JW and employee ID number 700.
My brother has RD 358, maybe he will chime in.
my RD278 (prototype CD) has the same buttstock with the white spacers on the pg and buttstock. but the edges of the pg are rounded not like the rifle pictured which has square edges on the PG. my rifle has a blued trigger.
my rd 358 brush gun has ser # 358 1 in shorter but stock slimmer and raised comb straight grip barrel address savage arms westfield mass usa . caliber stamped back by receiver. David where did you acquire that prototype CD ? LOL cant wait for the new book. also lettered by callahan
I got it from Loggah's brother Dick when I was visiting them for pics and info for my first book. I'm a bigger fan of the earlier rifles but my wife will have to dispose of that one after I'm in the grave.
David topnotch99 is aka loggahs brother Dick . hope everthing is going well. including your issues with the publisher.
I'll try to remember your handle Dick. Thanks for selling it to me. It's a nice one.
Went to a great home. I think Loggah is still a little pissssed . not on here much setting home bored dealing with the VIRUS !!!
not on here much setting home bored dealing with the VIRUS !!!
Good time to think up and ask some questions about Savages..
Like why was 1899 production so low in 1916 (2000 rifles?), but then climbed in 1917(6000+ rifles?)? It shut down in 1918.. but was WWI the reason in 1916? Economy?
How many were produced in 1915? If it was 8,000 then you have your answer for the dip in 1916.
From serial number ranges..
1913 - 17,000+
1914 - almost 16,000
1915 - almost 16,000
1916 - about 2,000
1917 - about 6,000
If 1916 was due to war production for Euro countries, I'd have expected 1917 to stay down.
Perhaps in anticipation of the war, they were assembling all parts on hand so they could sell completed guns out of inventory during the war?
Could be. However, no 1899's appear to have been shipped during 1918. Some 99's were shipped during WWII, supposedly put together with leftover parts. Savage could do this because they stayed ahead of schedule on producing war material.
Looks like it was likely due to ramping up Lewis machinegun sales to Canada. They must have caught up by 1917 and managed to hire some folks for doing civilian arms production - and then in later 1917 the US military started ordering Lewis machineguns and everything got shut down until 1919.
In regards to a query from the US Ordnance Department:
Under date of December 28, 1915, after another inquiry, Mr. Greene (sales manager) wrote:
"We acknowledge your letter of the 23d, in which you ask if we can furnish you with one Savage Lewis machine gun. We are, of course, most anxious to furnish the Department not only with one Savage-Lewis gun, but with a considerable quantity, but at the present moment our output is all engaged, deliveries just now being due the Department of Militia and Defense at Ottawa, and we do not feel at liberty to divert even one gun from the contract deliveries."
In response to another effort of the Department, Mr. A. A. Borie, president of the Savage Arms Company, wrote under date of January 27, 1916:
"I regret to inform you that such a sale at the present time is impossible on account of other commitments made by this company. We trust, however, in the near future to be able to deliver a Lewis machine gun to the Department for the purpose of test by the Department, and will notify you in regard to this as soon as possible."
Looks like it was likely due to ramping up Lewis machinegun sales to Canada. They must have caught up by 1917 and managed to hire some folks for doing civilian arms production - and then in later 1917 the US military started ordering Lewis machineguns and everything got shut down until 1919.
In regards to a query from the US Ordnance Department:
Under date of December 28, 1915, after another inquiry, Mr. Greene (sales manager) wrote:
"We acknowledge your letter of the 23d, in which you ask if we can furnish you with one Savage Lewis machine gun. We are, of course, most anxious to furnish the Department not only with one Savage-Lewis gun, but with a considerable quantity, but at the present moment our output is all engaged, deliveries just now being due the Department of Militia and Defense at Ottawa, and we do not feel at liberty to divert even one gun from the contract deliveries."
In response to another effort of the Department, Mr. A. A. Borie, president of the Savage Arms Company, wrote under date of January 27, 1916:
"I regret to inform you that such a sale at the present time is impossible on account of other commitments made by this company. We trust, however, in the near future to be able to deliver a Lewis machine gun to the Department for the purpose of test by the Department, and will notify you in regard to this as soon as possible."
This doesn't sound very patriotic. What was Savage doing, holding out for more money?
This doesn't sound very patriotic. What was Savage doing, holding out for more money?
No it was politics as you may guess.
Short story: The inventor Isacc Newton Lewis was turned down by U.S. officials so he went across the pond to Belgium where the gun was adapted and became known as the Belgium Rattlesnake ~1914.
The U.S. woke up eventually, Savage got a contract, etc.
This doesn't sound very patriotic. What was Savage doing, holding out for more money?
Savage needed to decide between fulfilling their contracts for Lewis guns in 303 British, or taking resources away from that to modify and create the tooling to create a Lewis gun in 30-06. Considering the US Army had for 5 years been refusing to buy the Lewis machinegun and indeed insulted it every time they evaluated it, screwing up the existing contract for an army that was actively engaged in war (the US wasn't in the war at that point) would have been really stupid.
The US Army had evaluated the Lewis gun in 1912, they didn't want it. It wasn't until Britain was handing out Lewis guns at the squad level that the US Army realized they had a ridiculously low stock of machineguns if we went to war. The US Army didn't even think machineguns were needed that much in war until the trench warfare in WWI showed them how critical they were.
The US Navy was the first to buy Savage Arms Lewis guns for the Marines... but even then, the Marines didn't get to use them as they were taken away after landing in Europe.
In 1916, (at the urging of Edward B. Cole, the “father” of Marine Corps machine guns) the U.S. Navy decided to adopt the Lewis light machine gun, which was then being manufactured for the British by the Savage Arms Co. in Utica, N.Y. An American invention, but produced and used overseas because of a long-standing feud between its inventor, Col. Isaac N. Lewis, and Gen. William Crozier, the U.S. Army’s Chief of Ordnance, the new American version of the bipod-mounted, shoulder-fired machine gun was, like the ’03 Springfield rifle, chambered in .30-’06 Sprg. Firing 47 rounds out of its distinctive top-mounted drum magazine, the air-cooled Lewis gun quickly became a favorite of Marines training at Quantico, and handcarts were developed (again by Cole) to carry the guns into battle.
However, after landing in France, the Marines’ Lewis guns were taken away from them and replaced with the questionable French Chauchat automatic rifle and the Hotchkiss heavy machine gun. Although, at the time, the Marines were furious at this the turn of events, in hindsight, the change is understandable. Maintaining a supply of replacement parts for Lewis guns would have been more than difficult for the single brigade of Marines within an Army division, and that division being one of at least 40 divisions within the Services of Supply for the entire American Expeditionary Forces. Moreover, Lewis guns were badly needed by the fledgling U.S. Air Service in France, and the Marines’ Lewis guns were used to arm observation biplanes.
Great info! I hate politics. We jarheads are always on the bottom. Our superiors in the 70's said we did the mostest with the leastest.
I think it's safe to say that Col. Isaac N. Lewis and Gen. William Crozier pretty much hated each other. Some speculation that Crozier was jealous of Lewis having his name on a firearm and determined to keep the guns out of the US military.
Lewis dragged Crozier through the mud after Crozier said in 1916 that the Lewis gun couldn't be adapted to fire "American" (30-06") ammunition. Lewis retorted that Crozier knew that was a flat out lie, because Crozier himself had fired the test guns in 1912 and they were in 30-06.
Does anyone happen to know who purchased that pair of guns at the rock Island auction?
I have an unfired 99-358 that looks the same, but mine has a straight stock.
Lots of stuff was put togeather by and for the workers there.
Since this gun popped up on Gunbroker and I was taking a look at it and reading the past posts does the cut checkering date the stock? I am not implying stock and gun the same age but just curious when the last of the cut checkering stocks were turned out.
It dates the stock. The stock is from a 99CD (cheek piece tells us that), which was made from 1975 to 1980. Unfortunately we don’t positively know if the stock was fitted in that timeframe, or if a leftover stock was put on later.
Lots of stuff was put togeather by and for the workers there.
Sounds like you may have some first hand knowledge in this area.
What da ya know?
I live in the next town over, and have known a few people that worked there. Guys could pick wood and sights and things for their guns, and bring in their own guns for repair ,they have always been encouraged to buy guns and shoot. They are a good sponser to the club I belong to, Easthampton Fish & Game, and employees shoot trap there on Wednesday afternoons. they also do a lot of testing on our rifle range, and I have talked to a few guys testing scopes for the combo packages. When I worked at the distributor Camfour right next door in the 70's and 80's, Bob Greenleaf from R&D used to come in with purchase orders for all kinds of odds and ends. I remember when he came to pick up 375W ammo in both grain weights to test feeding when they were getting ready to produce the 99 375. So when you find a gun with Lyman, or Marbles sights instead of Williams, it may have come from R&D to a employee's custom gun.
I live in the next town over, and have known a few people that worked there. Guys could pick wood and sights and things for their guns, and bring in their own guns for repair ,they have always been encouraged to buy guns and shoot. They are a good sponser to the club I belong to, Easthampton Fish & Game, and employees shoot trap there on Wednesday afternoons. they also do a lot of testing on our rifle range, and I have talked to a few guys testing scopes for the combo packages. When I worked at the distributor Camfour right next door in the 70's and 80's, Bob Greenleaf from R&D used to come in with purchase orders for all kinds of odds and ends. I remember when he came to pick up 375W ammo in both grain weights to test feeding when they were getting ready to produce the 99 375. So when you find a gun with Lyman, or Marbles sights instead of Williams, it may have come from R&D to a employee's custom gun.
Thank you for the reply.
It seems at times when an "oddball" rifle appears folks are trying to figure out what Savage offered and when, what model or variation it is or is it special order.
Confirming "employee builds" of rifles isn't necessarily another category, but with that in mind I wouldn't spend too much time trying to pigeonhole an "oddball" into one of the above categories.
Or maybe "employee builds" is a category. ??
![[Linked Image from gunsamerica.com]](https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/5212/972690910/wm_3639234.jpg)