So we've read before about how Charles Newton emphatically did NOT believe the 22HP was a moose (or tiger) cartridge, but rather a woodchuck cartridge that would work fine with an occasional perfect shot at a whitetail or black bear.

But how about the 250-3000? Was it a "big game" cartridge? What was the opinion a few years after it was introduced?

Well.. here's Charles Cottar answering some detractors with his opinion on the 250-3000, from a 1922 issue of Outdoor Life.

https://frontierpartisans.com/17060/american-frontiersman-african-dynasty/

I love the part about "Not every man who comes to this country to shoot lions is a rifle shot, and many have little real inclination to hunt big game. They are carried away by the romance of the thing..."

Good link!

Staying on the "250-3000 African" theme - it would appear a mystery is revealed in that posted link.

The shooter of the Savage 1920 rifle is seemingly identified as Mike Cottar:

Somebody got a little defensive.

On the man-cave wall, the stuff that dreams are made of:



Early Savage 1920 250-3000 with a broken stock, muzzle turned for a suppressor.

I'd say he got ticked off for being called a liar, rather than just being defensive. The man didn't just write about stuff.. he actually did it.

Another classic with Cottar in it.

Weird.. image isn't showing up. Very odd... Gorilla Ad

I'm thinking this should become a new competitive event at the Olympics! What a great picture. A classic old Indian cycle and a 1920 Savage.

Or an event at Rendezvous! Joe Brady has a Harley, and we all have .250's! (Sadly, no gorillas or lions to be found in Pennsylvania.)

IMO: plains game for sure with a .250-3000, dangerous beasts that can eat or stomp you, not so much.

Interesting time in history.
Sportsman had been using spitzer bullets for ~25 years.
Newton experimented with many more bullets & calibers from 22 Newton 90 gr. bullet to 40 Newton 300 gr. bullet and lots in between.
Pretty sure he understood and continued to understand the relationships of bullet size, speed and power. Also killing game vs. stinging game...just like us.

No thank you.

Outdoor Life editor responding to Charles Cottar's letter. Apparently a number of folks questioning Cottar's tales of using the 250-3000.

I like this response..

This stuff reminds me of the seemingly age old argument about what caliber for what game. I have a cousin who, when a teenager, shot two deer with a 22LR. Also one of the record whitetails was taken with a 25-20. Can it be done? Of course it can. Does that make either of those rounds a good deer cartridge? No it doesn't, at least in my opinion. Every good shooter has an off day, gets affected by environmental conditions, etc. and can end up missing or worse crippling or causing a slow painful death for an animal.

Also when this stuff was written, wouldn't they have been shooting 87gr bullets? I wouldn't even shoot a whitetail with one of those, unless I had to, let alone dangerous game.

Remember that smokeless powders and small bore guns had only been around 30 years or so by the time of this article. It was very much an argument about what cartridges were suitable for what game.

Would I have wanted to go with a 250-3000 in 1915 to shoot lions? Probably not.. but there weren't a ton of better options. A 30-30? 32-40? 25-35? 38-55? Ehhh.. it was early days. When did the Winchester 1895 become available in 30-06? That'd probably have been my choice prior to the 300 Savage being introduced.

Here's the preceding letter from Fry in which he argues that only the old large bore guns are suitable for Africa.

Rory, Thank you for finding and bringing those articles to us. That history is lost to the new generations. I read Ruark as a boy in the 50's, his hunts with Mike Cottar and his ways with words describing Africa. I liked the part where Charles Cottar said he shot Askins trophys, I read that years ago somewhere but here it is from the horse's mouth. Thanks again.

Mike

I remember seeing old advertisements for the Ruger 44 semi auto rifle with a guy posing with a dead gorilla

The old 87gr Speer Hot Cors flatten deer. My old man used them for several years in 25-06 before switching to 100gr Nosler Solid bases because they were easier to find.

Did you read all of what I said?

Saying a 25-20 and a 250 loaded with an 87 grainer are in the same class is sorta like saying a steam locomotive and a space shuttle are the same thing.

Hmm... I'm unclear about what we're talking about now. I was referring to 250S with 87gr bullets, not 25-20.

I know what you had meant for loads, I guess I could have written that clearer.

I had meant an 87gr 250 load is nowhere near the same class as any 25-20 load.

I posted comments on the Africa forum referencing this, but suffice it to say, speed DOES indeed kill...but bullet construction is essnetial (ask Sir Edward Gray's brother using a 280 on a lion). My uncle took TWO lion in the late 60s in Mozambique using a 270 and 130gr Winchester Silvertips. I think we are coming around to using lighter calibers with the introduction of modern bonded or bullets like the TTSX (my favorite) but they need speed. Also, there is a lot of evidence out there that Cats are very sensitive to high velocity, so there is that. Still, I don't think I'd ever use a 250 Savage on a lion, leopard maybe..Anyway, great read and great thread.

I don't think I'd ever use a 250 on dangerous game, either, but I wouldn't hesitate to plug deer with the 87 grainers.

The TTSX are probably my favorite bullet, as well. They've worked well in every single cartridge I've tried them in. Haven't used any of my 99s on deer yet, but the 250 and 300 both have TTSX loads (80 and 130gr respectively) ready to go in the event.

The Nosler 110 ETip designed for 300 Blackout works well in the 303 Savage, but they've turned into unobtanium so I just recently worked up a 140 Monoflex load for that as a substitute. I don't know how the terminal performance with those is yet, but the accuracy is definitely there.

Once CA passed that lead ban, I envision mandated monos for hunting as becoming an inevitablilty eventually, so I figured I'd get ahead of the curve and have myself stocked up on monos with good loads for every rifle I own well in advance.

It comes down to bullet construction. Those earliest 87 gr. bullets these guys were using weren't much to write home about, but evidently did ok. I wouldn't compare them to modern bullets though - we have the edge in that regard.. Today's 87 Speer is darned good proven bullet that kills with alacrity. What's an extra 13 grains in a 100 grain bullet gonna do? Whittle a tiny piece of lead down to 13 grains and look at it and get back to me.

The Speer Hot Cor is just a damn good bullet. Don't matter the caliber or weight.

I'm old school and a big fan of partitions, but that ain't no shade on Hot Cors.

I killed a big bull elk with 180 grain Hot Cors about 10 years ago and the first one went all the way through the elk and broke his off leg between the shoulder and elbow on its way out. The second one went through his chest and hung up in the hide on the other side which I proudly cut out and still have it today. I weighed it once and if memory serves me right it was around 150 grains. Range was in the low 400s.

Impressive performance, I wouldn't expect anything less from an 87 grain 257 Hot Cor shot at deer size animals.

Said 30 caliber Hot Cor after travelling through an 800 lb animal.

Devastating....

Can't beat that with a stick!