i have 4 30-30's so why do i need a 303?
not trying to denigrate the 303 just trying to get you guys to enable my addiction.

1. 303 is a Savage caliber not a Winchester caliber.

2. How can you complete the "Slam" with 4 30-30's and no 303's?

3. 303 is just WAY cooler than the 30-30.

OK you convinced me! just call me easy!
now to convince the wife "that old thing? i've had it for ages!"
what model should i look for?

Your favorite pre war model.

303's are fairly common in most models and don't bring the premium the 30-30's and 250's do.

If you don't reload ammunition isn't that hard to find if you know where to look for it.

1. 303 is THE original Savage caliber. If you got an 1895 you would have no choice of caliber.

2. 303 case can support the heavy 190 grain bullets. Too bad no one makes a good 190 gr jacketed RN!

3. As 99 guy said, they are common in the early 1899 models, and relatively inexpensive compared to the readily available calibers.

4. It would be hard to collect one each of the 1899 or pre-war 99 models if you did not buy 303's

5. It is easy to load for and obtain components and dies

What's not to love?

Its got the KOOL factor going for it! ask any of the old timers they claim the 190 grain bullets Hit Harder!

over the last 50 years i have established a bass ackward way of buying new guns with chamberings that i don't have.
i find a set of reloading dies for a cartridge/arm i don't have and proceed from there.
today i got a set of 303 savage dies, several boxes of vintage 303 ammo and 5 boxes of fired brass that looks 1x fired.
looks like i am in the market for a 303.

Old timers were convinced the 303 with 190's killed better than the 30-30 with 170's. Heard my grandfather and his older brothers discuss this topic many times when I was comin up. They were guides in the Adirondack camps in the 20's and 30's and saw 100's of deer and bear killed.

Was it true?

Who knows...?

I would get the latest 303 you can find. My 303 hunter is a Spiegel made in 1939. It wears a stith.

I can say with great certainty that it can drop an 8 point buck immediately at 120 yards.

Others here have taken elk.

Do you need any other reason other than that?

You’ll have a legitimate reason to buy the ammo next time you see it.

Look for 99E. Love it. Or an A. Or a B. Or a C. or

Hmmm. So can the .30-30. It's all I've used for deer hunting in .30-30's and .303's since forever it seems. The solution to the problem of no 190 grain bullets for the .303 is to make your own, like this one:



Virtually free- made with scrounged wheelweights- and accurate as any jacketed bullet I ever shot out of a .303 or .30-30, and it's a killer-diller:



My only advise to Deerstalker: get the .303. (And if you do I'll slip you some of these Magic Beans as a reward.)

Gary, appreciate the offer. what is that mold maker and number? i have a mold that throws a bullet looks alot like that but depending on alloy i think its 200g+/-.
i haven't cast any 30's for a few years other then 130's for the 7.62x39. moved a couple years ago and most of my molds are still packed.
what powder does the 303 with the 190's like?
been busy listing a couple guns to fund a 303.

It's an old custom Saeco mold, no number. An old friend of mine, Sid Musselman who was a charter member of the Cast Bullet Association, designed it specifically for his and Frank Marshall's use as a deer/bear bullet in their .30-30's, and Saeco made it for him. (Sid's use was in a Remington M788, Frank's in a Savage 340.) Serendipitously they also found it to be silly accurate in their cast bullet benchrest guns. Shortly before Sid died in 1980 he asked me if I would like to have it. It's weird to assign nostalgic qualities to a bullet mold, but I do this one. It works great in every .30 rifle I've shot it out of, and exceptionally so in more than a couple over the years.

My memory fails me as to Sid's favorite .30-30 hunting load, but I do remember Frank Marshall's hunting load: a case full of Surplus 4831 (pretty much H-4831 today) up to the base of the bullet with a little compression. (It helps me that he wrote often of that load in the journals.) You can't possibly get enough of that powder in the small .30-30/.303 case to get in trouble. Frank killed a train load of Blue Ridge, VA deer with that load and his open sighted 340, and a couple black bears.

"The Load" for me is 28.0 grains 3031, in both .303 and .30-30, a load I settled on in my first round of experiments with it way back then. It's right up there pressure-wise but has proven ok in every rifle I've used it in. Excellent case life and no flattened primers (I know, I know). I have automatically gone straight to that load without working up to it when starting with a new rifle. (But, and it's a big but, they have all been bolt guns and Savage lever guns. I would be a little more cautious if faced with a rattly old half worn out M94 Winchester.) Chronographed velocity, out of a Winchester M54 24" barrel is 2030 fps. I'll guess it would be more like 1900 fps out of a 20" M1899 barrel, which is right in line with the old 190 grain .303 factory load.

makes me want to fire up the pot and burn some flux. i am way behind in my casting. last session was 500 405g 458's. that makes the lead supply shrink fast.

Ha ha, sure does!

Also, you could go with a 170-grain Lyman 311041 flat nose or round nose 311291 bullet.

...what you really need is a 300 Savage, that solves all the ballistic debates. Or just trade one of the 30-30's for a 303, that saves the marriage.

If you want it, that means you need it!!!!

I have several and my favorite is my 1926 T/D, with a lightfoot mount and weaver K4.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the original selling points of the 300 was it’s vastly improved performance over the 30-30 in a lever gun. On the same note, I also wouldn’t be surprised if Savage happened to have left their own proprietary 303 out of that conversation. On those lines though I have wondered if Savage pretty much gave up on the 303 after they came out with the 300 as they certainly didn’t find it in their heart to chamber it in the Super Sporter when it was introduced in 1928. If the 303 was a competitive product in the marketplace then I think Savage would have used it in 40/45. Of the two cartridges, I prefer the 303 over the 30-30 because of its longer neck. The 30-30 seems to be an inherently accurate round and the longer neck of the 303 would only improve this aspect of performance in this class of cartridge. Anyone happen to know the sales figures of the 303 in the 99 compared to the 300 after the latter was introduced?

JeffG, i have the 300 savage. just need/want a 303.
i have parted with some 99s in the past and have regretted each one.
S99VG, i have both those molds , just need the energy to fire them up.
Joe , i have a 1926 TD in 30-30 so one in 303 would be sweet.

I think the 1/16" or so of added neck length of the .303 over the .30-30 is a non-starter. In terms of aligning the bullet with the bore they're both more than adequate. In terms of keeping the base of the bullet confined within the neck so as not to intrude into the powder space, what's more important IMO is the depth of the throat which determines seating depth, in the quest for ultimate accuracy- OAL for magazine feeding notwithstanding. I've never had to seat my above mentioned heavy bullet below the neck in any.30-30 or .303, and have enjoyed flawless feeding through a variety of magazines, rotary, tube, and box. That's not to say that other throats and magazine lengths wouldn't dictate deeper seating, but in those instances having the bullet base dangling into the powder space is no big deal anyway, IMO.

Gary - I'm certainly not trying to split hairs here and by no measure would trash talk the 30-30 on the basis of neck length. It's just something I've noticed and if I had to make a call on it one way or the other I'd say the same thing again. Though this conversation may be interesting to have with techno-geeks who get into fine, fine, fine details of one aspect of technology over another - but again that's not me. As far as answering the question of "should I get a 303?" I have to quote what David Carradine/King Fu said years ago in a commercial. "If pizza makes you happy then you should have pizza." Life is short - have pizza!

It's the original caliber and ya ain't got one yet.
It's just classic

I found some Hawke 190 grain soft points. They are suited ideally for the .303 Savage. They are not cheap but for hunting with a .303 I don't believe the cost would be a deciding factor. They are another option to 190 grain cast bullets.

Darryl

Jeff- sometimes I feel the same way. But often it's the minutiae that is the most compelling too. Take for example the interest many here have in learning the subtle differences between same model Savages, serial numbers, sights, etc. It's all good. Personally what interests me the most with any rifle is what makes them tick, what makes for average accuracy versus sterling accuracy. (In the end a rifle's ability to shoot accurately trumps its ability to look good otherwise what's the point of a rifle?)

Side note: As I'm typing this, two blocks from my window they just fired a 21 gun salute with 105mm howitzers, MD National Guard, MD Governor's Inauguration. It's cool having your windows rattled in such a manner, followed by a flyover by A-10 Warthogs flown by the Air National Guard. Proud to be an American!!

Oh geez yea. Sometimes I think the minutiae discussed on this forum about the 99 nears the infinite. But this would be the place one would expect to find that sort of thing less we call ourselves the Savage Plinkers Forum! 105-mm howitzers, cool. I have a neighbor I wouldn’t mind unleashing one or two of those babies on.

the minutiae is what educates the likes of me. keep it coming.

So are you getting the 303? Personally I think you should have that pizza, if you catch my drift.

Sold all my 30-30's a number of years back to get 303's, just liked them "better" as it's a Savage design. Have picked up a couple since then, but still like the 303's. Heck, buying another 303 today.

It's a disease...

Ain't nothing wrong with that affliction!

I would make this argument:

Everybody has certain parameters that make guns (or baseball cards or cars or women or whatever) interesting to them.

What is one's definition of shooting accurately? Every rifle I have ever bought was, to me at least, a hunting rifle designed for one purpose, to kill game.

What is the practical difference in most hunting situations between a gun that shoot's 1.5 moa or .5 moa? To me, the prettier gun gets to hunt.

I remember "sighting in" when I was a young lad too young to even hunt and just tagging along. Somebody would take their pocket knife and make a blaze on a beach or spruce tree and every body would back up an appropriate distance (25-30 steps or so) and shoot offhand (usually one shot) at the mark with their open sighted Winchesters, Remingtons and Savages. If they hit the tree within 3 or 4 inches of the mark they were "sighted in" and we went hunting.

Didn't many deer get past them guys I can tell you.

Not trying to say the inherent accuracy of a rifle isn't important, and I understand that to some guys it's just fun to go through the exercise of wringing the best out of a guns ability. I get it.

But just sayin sometimes it can be easy to over complicate the task to be performed.

Just me...

No, it is NOT just you. That is EXACTLY what everyone in my family did just prior to opening day of deer season. There were probably 15 or so of us. Now they are all gone except for me. If it wasn't for my wife and son to keep me going,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well, you get the idea.

easy ... you don't have one; that's why you need one. I can't think of a more fulfilling way to bring home venison than with a vintage 303 Savage.

For some reason I get more satisfaction in shooting a deer with a 303 than with a 30-30, maybe just the unusual cartridge factor.

Mike

just sold a henry 22 to my neighbor so the funds are building! Pizza!

Cool!

OK, I'm convinced! Now, I just have to find one.

The earlier actions may not be as strong. And I think the spring like action of the firearm closing and locking up tight diminish as the firearm gets used.

But I prefer hands down the pencil thin barrels carbine length. I also seem to shoot pistol grips a little more accurately.

But aesthetics wise the F or E look coolest, feel the best 2 me.

But............I also have a model B 1899 s in rifle butt stock, and one in shotgun butt , non takedowns octagons, that I never seem to want to sell.

Another appeal of owning a .303 is the "what the hell is that" reaction at the rifle range. The marching to the beat of a different drummer attitude, if you will. Truth be told there is no earthly difference in efficiency whatsoever between it and the .30-30. It boils down to desire.

If a rank newbie asked me to recommend one over the other in two identical rifles he was looking at and if to him nostalgia/Savage lunacy weren't a factor, I would tell him to go with the .30-30 by all means. .30-30 ammo is everywhere, .303 ammo not so much (and the same for brass for reloading). That, mind you, is purely a pragmatic approach. Rifle/Savage loonies keep moving, nothing for you in that sentiment!

you guy's have me in a sweat to find one now. and the deal i had going on the henry fell through. maybe i can sell an AR.

So for years the 303 was the “red headed stepchild” to just about everything, including practically every discontinued cartridge ever made. I have a TD F I got about 20-years ago because nobody wanted anything to do with “that obsolete” cartridge. I’ve been a fan for a long time but are we now elevating the 303 to cult status like the 250-3000 and the recently rising in popularity 22HP?

Some 303's are just plain nice to gaze upon !

Should be wrapped in plastic, to protect it from drool!

Beautiful.

Nah, the 303 is what it is, the first Savage cartridge, a very serviceable cartridge, so every collector needs one. Just as they need a 22HP, 250, and 300. You need those 4 for the Savage Slam. The only one I don't have yet is a deer with the 303. I'd say the 22HP and 250 can be more Cultish. I only have 11-12 1899/99's and 5 of them are 250's. I think to the rest of the world it's still the red headed step child . To us, it's just the correct cartridge.

Got deer with the 303 and 300, antelope with the 250. Nothing with a 22HP yet. Some day I'll take one out for does.

Except ones like that one!^^^^^^^^^

These might be helpful. Sorry about the rotated images. If you download them they are readable.

PM me, might just have a duplicate 99 in 303 for trade. What cha got for trade?

Also the 75th Anniversary model 95 was available in 30-30, a blast to hunt with. A modern one but nice and fun to boot.

pm to you Harley

Ya gotta love the old Lyman reloading manuals!

75th Anniversay in 308 only. They stopped selling 99’s in 30-30 right at WW2. Just FYI.

i have numbers 1 through current . something else my wife calls clutter

I like the factory duplication load for 22.5-grains of IMR 4227 and the 193-grain 311334. 1934 FPS.

Awesome manuals thanks!

My point I was trying to make was this.

With the 303 savage ammo rare, buying a vintage 303 carbine/ rifle will more than likely be less " used" than a 30/30 of the same age.

Did someone say old Lyman manual.

I've been a believer in Lyman manuals for a long time, but sometimes in some of those old manuals they leave me scratching my head. Lump 170 and 180 grain under one heading and claim the the same velocity for both with the same charges? Extrapolation/guesswork filled a lot of the holes they hadn't the time/budget (or inclination) to actually research, I suppose.

Stop it, stop it! Just came home from an auction preview. Two beautiful 1899A's in .303. I don't need encouragement. Wife wants a new downstairs bathroom. Oh, man, I will be a wreck at the auction. Of course I could stay home and not bid but what is the fun in that. .Some body jump in here and tell us all how much .303 savages suck.
.

If you can get your mitts on any 190 gr. Silvertips made for the .303 they are IMPRESSIVE killers...

.
If you can find them, you can't afford to shoot them. Wish I could find some for reloading.

Oh well, Nebraska, Kansas; 170, 180-grain bullets - uh, what's the big difference?! Close enough (just kidding of course)

Because I have one and they are more than KOOL ! Vintage 1905 26" Octagon

Listen to the man. He's old enough to have been killing stuff since they were called Flinttips.

Looks like 8-10 grains of Unique with 173gr cast, gas-checked bullet would make a fun, cheap plinking load. I've got an unopened 8lb-er of Unique.
Also, wonder why with the cast, Lyman moved up to the faster powders (2400 and IMR 4227)

I was in grammar school when the 99 first caught my eye. It belonged to the father of a buddy. His father has passed away but I still know Pete and he still has that EG in 300. That was back in the late 60s and in all those years I never heard the 303 celebrated as much as it has been on this thread. Cool, very cool. Keep it up!

That's because the 12 of us, in the whole wide world, that really love them, are all here!

unless you dirty dozen all have deep pockets Joe, there must be more that love them as they aren't being given away on Gunbroker etc.....at least any with good condition.

Because a generation ago people still believed that fast(er) powders were totally necessary for cast bullet accuracy. With small-ish capacity cases like the .303 and .30-30, medium and slow burning powders are adapted quite nicely to cast bullet shooting, a fact not generally conceded before several pioneers made it their business to debunk that wive's tale. Not so true with larger cartridges like the '06 where small quantities of slow burners would induce dangerous episodes and normal charges of those powders would spit the bullets into the bore with horrendous results in the areas of leading and accuracy. So to keep cast bullets running at or below their limits of elasticity, faster powders are required in larger cases. That, Dear Hearts, is why the .30-30 and similar cartridges make for ideal cast bullet shooters.

Came across a 99C in 303 about a year ago, had to have it....

Since acquiring the 303 I've loaded several powders with my 195 gr gas check including Unique which gave the best Chrono string of all but have settled on 21.0 grs of 4227 for its better accuracy..Velocity from the 26" bbl is 1410 plenty IMO without pushing the envelope...I'm sizing .311 as the bore slugged .310..and read where all 303 bore dia are.308 must have a bastard child !

38-55 and 303

Wow, as of now you have 1,864 convinces going in this thread. I would have been convinced about 1,863 of them ago!

71 posts and counting

Great thread....

The 303 Savage works great with a cast bullet. Took this 6-pointer in November with a 173 grain gas-checked bullet at 100 yards. Started to cast last summer and my goal was to take a buck with a bullet that I cast. 1920 1899H or 99F ... whichever it is

See, easy peasy!! Good going, Keith!

Hey, that deer's leakin'!

Midway USA just got some 190 gr Barnes .308 FP's for $29.99/box of 50, a little cheaper than the Hawke's

Hmmm. Good to know. Are they rated to perform at sedate .303 velocities?

A quick look at the Barnes site shows the bullets under "Originals". Catalog #30360 190 grain flat point for the .30-30 Winchester. So I think they would suit the .303 just fine. They are a good looking bullet. How they perform i.e. jacket thickness who knows.

Darryl

If any body wants some silver tips. PM me. I bought a whole bunch of them. I doubt I will use them either.

I think they are mostly 180 grains. I got to lovin on the FTX 160 s so I think I should send them down the road.

The silver tips I mean.

By the way.

That deer looks very nice!

If by "Originals" they mean the bullets by which Barnes earned their reputation back in the day then I bet they work just fine. I shot up a sh*tload of those old pure copper jacket/dead soft lead core bullets in various calibers back when a LGS went out of business and I bought all of them in 7mm and .30 that he had. I lamented the fact that Barnes virtually eliminated them from their line up, but life goes on and the TSX flavor is an excellent successor.

I'm sorely tempted to give those 190 Originals a whirl, but for the fact that every barrel I would shoot them out of is dedicated to cast lead only. Perhaps I need another .303 tube with which to dedicate to jacketed only- thanks for the enabling!

I went to Barnes' web site and sure enough, there they were. By god, any of you guys who handload for your .303's and don't shoot cast that would be a bullet to make a bee line for, in my opinion.

Thanks madtrapper for calling attention to them. I thought Barnes had completely eliminated Originals in .30 caliber. Man oh man!

So I guess the question now is, are you going to need 1863 “convinces” to make a move on another 303? Probably not and be sure to let us know what the new beauty is when you get it!

Midway has the Barnes 30360 for 30-bucks a box. Looks the the 303 could really be back on line with that baby!

Gary I've got an extra 303 tube here if you want one.

Hmmmm.

Hmmm, so how might you figure that bullet working in a 30-40 Krag?

If it feeds, it would be the cat's meow. Bullet shape can sometimes trip up a Krag's ability to feed. I've owned 'em that would feed RN's but not spitzers. Flat nose? Crap shoot. Don't ask me why, it just is.

Somebody ought to try that bullet in a .300. Boy howdy wouldn't that make for a real woods thumper?

Thanks for the heads up on the 190 gr Barnes .308 for the 30-30. These are going to be fun.

In terms of why you should buy a .303 Savage 99, there is only one correct answer: "It would be rude not to."

A few years ago I bought a refinished .303 99 Carbine Take Down on Gunbroker that collectors would cry over. The stock was nicely refinished with the little Marbles stock compass intact and working, an outstanding re-blue that looks like the old Smith & Wesson infinitely deep bluing, drilled & tapped for a scope, Lyman Tang Sight, Marbles fold down leaf sight and front bead sight, and what looks like a brand new barrel blued to match the rest of the rifle with a very, very tight fit and bore is as new. Best trigger of any 99 I have and all of the internal parts are polished and blued also. This rifle functions perfectly and is so smooth it is unbelievable. Someone spent a lot of time on this and it was clearly a labor of love even though they ruined the collector value. Probably some kid inherited it and sold it for nothing to the tiny remote PA gun shop I bought it from. It did not sell at the $400 reserve and I kept making much lower offers over a year on it until the owner gave in. The price I paid for this rifle in relationship to the quality and function makes it the best value I have ever gotten.

Off all the 99's I own, this one speaks of 100% pure vintage class. It is the best looking rifle I own. And when you pick the rifle up, shoulder it, and handle it you know that you own a legend.

Buying brass is not an issue. I have not found a load I can settle on and I think the one I worked up to is too hot and it is not near as accurate as my other 99's are. I'll have some fun with the Barnes 190's now.

Most of the hunting I do involves shots less than 100 yards, and typically a lot less than that. When I shoulder this rifle and it just points naturally and the Lyman Peep instantly lines up with the sight on the target, I wonder why I even bother with rifle scopes for the distances I shoot.

[quote=FSJeeper "It would be rude not to."

[/quote]


I like that! The best reason yet!

That Barnes bullet is way cool. BUT I just purchased 100 Hawk 190's. I guess I will have to hunt a lot of deer and moose to use up the Hawks and then move to the Barnes.

Darryl

I like that! The best reason yet![/quote]

You beat me to it Gary. As a matter of fact I’m thinking about making it a personal motto. “Why do I want/need a 303?” Because...(or as Paul Harvey used to put it, “and now you know the rest of the story”)