Got a 1915 22hp g about a year ago, Emailed back and forth with gnoahh for some tips to get started reloading for it. The first 20 shots or so, some of the 70 grain Hornadys were tumbling through the target. Shot better with the 65 grain buffalo bullets. Prior to the first shot I cleaned the bore with hope's ten passes, looks a little rough but as I said the shots were mostly straight thru, except for 3 or 4 of the 70 grain Hornady.. So over the winter I went at the bore to try to get it to pristine. Tried wipe out, let it soak for anywhere from 15 minutes to overnight, cleaned up quite a bite but it's still a little rough in the grooves.The lands are clean looking, just a lot of build-up in the grooves. OK, tried Kroil, letting it soak up to three days in a plugged barrel. it gets minimally better but its not pristine, yet. Local gun shop guy sees a big difference, but agrees it's not the best. Went to my other gun guy, who used to work for Remington and he looks at it and says the build-up is caused by the old gunpowders used in the early part of the century. He says drill it and resleeve to 224. about 400 smackers.
I stumble around and go back to Hoppes, Kroil, wipeout, brake fluid, carb cleaner, and almost anything else I can think of, it seems to be marginally better but now more bullets tumble than not.
Just for shi** and giggles, a.224 bullet will drop right through the barrel, .228s won't start in the barrel without some tapping to go thru and have slight rifling marks on them when tappd out, I've tried to get a decent picture of the barrel but no luck with my phone camera.
Anybody got any ideas?

IMHO all that cleaning is not going to do anything positive. If you’re unhappy with it, sell it and look for another.

I agree, if you're not "enjoying the hunt" for an effective load, then you might want to start your search for a proven shooter. Gnoahhh is a vast resource of knowledge and experience, so You're on the right road there. I'd try the 55g or 60g BA bullets, then start experimenting with cast bullets, before giving up

My 250 and 22HP have flyers after I clean the barrel. But, it only takes 2-3 shots and everything tightens back up, no tumblers. All I've shot through mine so far are the 71 gr Norma's, with reformed 30-30 brass, no tumblers. I shot a nice 8 point WV mountain deer with it this year. I seem to remember someone else having trouble with the Hornady's, but could be mistaken.

Interesting, I would agree with poconojack on the cleaning. I think that is actually making the situation worse. I just tried fitting a calipered diameter .223 bullet in the muzzle of my 22 hi power. It will not push beyond the ogive with heavy thumb pressure. Out of curiosity, what distance were you getting the tumbling at?

Eric

If a .224 bullet falls in the bore you gotcherseff some problems amigo!

I would have suggested fire lapping..... but this little tid bit makes that a moot point. Like urinating into a stiff headwind. Cut your losses And take PoconoJacks advise.

I would try the 70gr bullets from Schroeder bullets out of Commiefornia. They mic at .227. Most .228’s or .227’s mic at .226 or under. And they are the right length for the 22hp. Send me a pm and i will send you a few. I will send you a few of the 65gr cast bullets i use for plinking also.

Joe

First off, that isn't "buildup caused by gunpowder from a century ago" whoever said that may have worked for Remington, but what did he do there? Security guard, accountant, company president? I'll bet a dollar to a donut hole it is cupro-nickel* fouling from old timey bullets. That stuff is pure nasty to remove from a barrel and I'm not surprised that none of those home remedies touched it much. The old timers used Stronger Ammonia, the pure killer stuff, to dissolve their cupro-nickel fouling but that stuff is nigh impossible for mere mortals to lay their hands on anymore. (The drill was to plug the bore, fill it with ammonia, let sit 10-15 minutes, dump it out and immediately flush with hot water and then oil the bejapers out of it.) If you can actually lay hands on some, for God's sake don't do it indoors, and wear a respirator. I ignored my own advice once and the stuff knocked me out cold (I did it in the bathroom). My then-wife dragged me out by my feet and revived me. But I got the cupro-nickel fouling out of that Springfield barrel.

Get some modern copper fouling remover like Barnes CR-10 or Sweet's 7.62 Solvent or any other solvent with a high ammonia content, follow directions to a T, and you'll make progress getting the bore cleaned. It'll probably still take a while though. That fouling is some kind of tenacious. (No wonder the world switched to gilding metal for bullet jackets.)

As for the "expert's" advice re: reaming the bore and lining with a .224 liner- good luck finding a knowledgeable smith to do it. Protocol has it that it's a no-no to line a bore for a higher pressure cartridge like this one. I would walk away from any smith that said he would do it.

Could be the bore was accidentally made a skinch overize to begin with. Remember these were built back in the days of analog machinery operated by humans, so anything is possible. It could also exacerbate bullet metal fouling- hot gasses torching past the sides of the bullet and melting the jackets. Were it me, after I had the bore all spic-and-span and it proved to really be oversize, I would secure a 60 grain bullet mold that produced oversize bullets (may need to go the custom route) and be happy with it as a cast bullet shooter forever after. Unless you have a source for .23 caliber jacketed bullets in your hip pocket.

No small wonder the Hornady 70 grain spire points shot poorly. They are too long to be reliably stabilized in the 1-12" twists of our guns. (Exceptions are oddball twisted guns, note the comment about 100+ year old machinery above, and where the bullets are fired- they'll work better at higher elevations than they will at sea level due to thinner air. Air temperature and humidity plays a role too.) I maintain that a Savage .22HP shooter that gets decent accuracy when shooting Hornady 70's would undoubtedly get outstanding accuracy if he switched to shorter bullets.

* cupro-nickel bullet jackets were made of an alloy of copper and nickel, heavy on the nickel, unlike modern gilding metal which is essentially copper with a bit of zinc added- any more zinc added and it would be called "brass".

100+ year old powders weren't any worse than modern powders as far as fouling buildup goes. The old guys dealt with it with a lot of snake oil solutions all of which worked to one degree or another, but remember also they were dealing with poisonous primers that we are immune from. The protocol for cleaning a gun back then was to flush/swab the chlorate salts deposited by those primers in the bore with hot water, soapy or not, and then wiping dry and oiling.

if you cast, try paper patching a few to see if you still tumble or keyhole. you may need a slightly larger expander button to get the patched bullet seated, though if you use one wrap of onion skin paper you should be good to go.
jm2cents worth

That's a good idea. I never thought of that. Been meaning to try paper patching cast bullets in rifles for decades but never got around to it. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and all that.

the lesson here is DON'T listen to anyone but the campfire guys, as per the answers...

A 22HP should have a .220” bore and .008” grooves. Maybe .221” & .007”... Either way, If a .224” bulletin slides right thru, the bore has significant wear.

Cast bullets might be best answer, at a guess. Gnoahh is the go-to guy.

played with patched just enough to be interested. helped with a '76 in 40/65

Trade it for a 250 or 300

Problem solved....

...what many of us are thinking.

Another option to try is to find a buddy that powder coats and try powder coating some of the cast bullets; it will add diameter to the bullet. Sometimes they do get too large in diameter for the throat and chambering becomes an issue.

Gary, I thought I heard the Horandy's were too long, should I send him some of my Norma's to give a try? They shoot well in mine.

First off, it makes sense to me that a .224 would slide thru the barrel of a .228 barrel gun. Gary, I will try to find some Barnes CR-10 or Sweet's 7.62 Solvent, that may help. As I said, the barrel is much better now that it was when I started, but it is far from "pristine" and I really don't expect it to ever be perfect, it's a hundred years old, I would question those of you who say the barrel is shot, as the lands are very clearly seen, and as mentioned they do show on a .228 bullet when pushed through the barrel. It's the build-up in the grooves I'm chasing. Joe if you can, I'll try some of those bullets you mentioned.
Selling it is an option, but I'm a stubborn cuss and would like to get it to shoot a little more consistently. I am looking for a 250 99, have been for 3 years but they're pretty rare here in the north country, I've seen one and the guy want 1700 for it...out of my range, I own shooters not collectors. I have also a 1913 303 g, a 1922 30-30 g, a 300 from 1950 and a 243 from 1964, all decent shooter grade, want a 250 and when shows up foe less than 700 I'll probably buy it. But I really want to enjoy this 22 hp. I should add, all shots are at 50 or 25 yards so far, and even with the tumbling the bullets are in a 6-8 inch circle. now I'm off to find some CR 10 or sweets, thanks for the help guys.
And, I should add for Gary, I've tried the shortened 70 grain jig you sent along and it seems to help with the tumbling but they do still tumble.

Like Calhoun said, a HP barrel has .220-.221 bore diameter, and grooves are typically .004 deep, x 2 (opposite each other) = .008, so there's the .228 groove diameter. Remember bore diameter = the naked smooth bore before the rifling grooves are cut. Groove diameter is what drives bullet diameter (at least with jacketed bullets).

Something's definitely rotten in Denmark here as no way should a .224 bullet drop through a .22HP barrel. I wish I could see this thing for myself! Hold off doing anything else until you get the bore cleaned as much as possible. It might end up that no .228 bullet of any weight or length will shoot ok out of it. If that's the case then it's either bye-bye gun barrel or go the custom bullet route.

.224 bulllet drops through - Could it a have been re-bored to a 22-.243 for 22-.250? I thnk the lands on a .243 are .237ish

243 is too long for the action, so almost surely not. It'd have been a single shot with massive work to the internals (Right, Loggah? ).

Another possible path forward.... rebore to 25-35.

What I meant was keeping the 22hp case but expand the case neck to take a .243 bullet. Re-bore the barrel and the neck portion of the chamber to accommodate a .243 bullet. I think .243 bullets run from about 55 grain to 120 or so. Maybe not possible? Like the discussion of making a 35-300.

Well, a 25-35 is a necked down 30-30. A 22HP is a necked down 25-35. It's possible somebody wildcatted it to a 243-22HP, but then the .228" bullets would slide right through.

Since a 22HP is a necked down 25-35, reboring to a 25-35 "should be" easy. Others can speak to difficulty of going from rimmed to rimless chamberings with the 99 internals. I have no experience in that.

What does a fired case neck measure on the outside? Might give a clue?

I went to the SAAMI website to compare case dimensions between the HP and .25-35. They list .25-35 but no HP so I couldn't do a direct comparison. But, since when I form HP's out of .25's the shoulder is so far back as to be not touched by the HP sizing die (those of you who've done this know what I'm saying, re: that kind of weird subtle "double shoulder" that gets left behind but which gets snapped out upon the first firing). That tells me that the the .25 has a longer neck and a tiny bit shorter shoulder than the HP, such that a .25-35 reamer wouldn't quite clean up a .22 HP chamber. I think because of that, Keith's idea of a 6mm High Power or a .25 High Power makes more sense. (Simply re-bore and ream the neck/throat, but boy-o-boy keep that scheit straight in line with the original chamber while doing it.

I don't know for a fact, I'm kinda thinking out loud here as I'm not where my reference books are that could give me the .22HP cartridge drawings.

Perhaps a better approach would be to ream/rifle the bore to 6mm, .25, or 6.5mm, and create a wildcat based on necking down a regular old .30-30. That would surely clean up the old chamber (don't call me Shirley). Maybe call it the .25 Savage M1899 Creedmoor.

Here you go Gary. Don't know how accrurate these are. Based on the drawing the shoulder of the 25-35 starts 0.020" below the start of the shoulder of the 22HP... hence the small part of the shoulder of the 25-35 that does not get worked by the 22HP sizier. Neck of 25-35 is longer than neck of 22HP. Also, if you do the math, the length of the 22HP shoulder is 0.218 and the 25-35 is 0.190. The shoulder of the 22HP ends at 1.616; the 25-35 at 1.568.

Additional Edit: Note that the shoulder of a 30-30 ends at 1.563 (compared to the 22HP 1.616), so a 30-30 reamer would not cleanup all of the 22HP chamber either. A 7-30 Waters' shoulder ends (start of neck) at 1.733", so it might be worth a closer look.

Thanks, Keith. My gut instinct was right- a .25-35 reamer won't clean up a .22HP chamber. .25 High Power Creedmoor anyone?!

Yep, won’t go. I’d suggest naming it the 25 Newton, but there probably already is such a thing.

Well, there was a .256 Newton, but it was a 6.5mm on the '06 case. A fearsome beast well ahead of its time.

Seems like 6.5x30-30AI would be a good choice. It's been done before, maybe not in 22HP convervsion. I know I sure like my contender in 7-30 waters, which is basicallhy a 7mmx30-30.

I think Bullberry make the 6.5 Bullberry and 6.5 Bullberry Improved, that I believe are 6.5x30-30 and 6.5x30-30AI and have load data available.

I sure like the way you fellers think.

OK, I understand the "real" barrel dimensions better now, thanx Calhoun, so I guess what I'm really gonna have to do is either find another 22 hp barrel(good luck with that idea). I kinda like the idea of a .243 bullet, like Keith suggested, but a problem would be suitable brass. What I'm getting from all this is that the 22 hp barrel is nfg, There is another idea, how about a 25-35? Thing is, I paid a lot for this gun, more than any of my others, and I can't, in good conscious sell it to somebody knowing it's basically unshootable.

Don't hit the panic button until you have the bore cleaned up as well as it can be.

Reference our discussion re: .25-35 conversion above. Changing the gun to .25-35 is a capital idea but would require a new barrel. (The existing rotor and cartridge guide would work ok for that too.) The other option in that regard would be a wildcat, as discussed above too. Either option wouldn't be cheap, but neither would it require a second mortgage on the house. If you end up going in either direction contact ctw here on the forum- he can fix you up.

Going with oversize bullets in the original bore, if it has usable rifling after it's finally cleaned, would be the cheapest route of all. But say goodbye to ever using factory ammo of any flavor.

You have brass that you fired in the rifle, take some measurements like CTW recommended so you can see what you are dealing with.

Who knows, I might have a 22HP barrel out there....

I just checked and yes I have a 22HP barrel with a great bore, outside lost it's blue a few decades ago.

Is it period correct? Interrupted 1/4 turn threads? got any pictures? Most important...what do you need to get for it? leave me a message, thanx

Maybe push a lead sinker through the bore and measure it when it pops out. It sure sounds like you have a 6mm rebore. Then get CTW to spin you up a new 219 zipper barrel for it. Use the same brass with .224 pills

OK guys, here's the latest, shot 15 rounds today, 7 buffalo lead 65gr, 8 hornady 70 gr @ .228.the fired cases with the lead bullet measured .257 at the case mouth, the Hornady measures between .256 and .260. Then I pushed through a .32 caliber lead ball which came out measuring .227-.228.What do you guys think now?

I think it's a 22HP, maybe with a few thousandths wore down in the bore.

The Hornady's can be problematic in old Savage 22HP's for stabilization. They work in some, they don't in others.

How did the bullets work on paper? Hit dead on, or sideways, or ??

One of the problems that was hard for me to get a grip on, is it's not the exact weight that makes them tumble, it's the length. The 70 Hornady is longer and pointier than the 71 Norma. The Norma is kind of squat. The ROT will stabilize the squat Norma, but not the Hornady. There is only 1 gr difference in weight, but the length is the killer. I'll try and get you some of those Norma's tomorrow. I have to work Saturday. If I don't get them off tomorrow I'll be busy till Monday or Tuesday.

Boox i sent you a pm.

Try a copper remover. I have a 99F in .243 from 1966 and the barrel had never been cleaned well as far as I could tell. It looked dark and nasty. I got some Sweet's 762 and some Tetra copper remover and did a series of liberally soaking for 20 minutes, Bronze brush 4 or 5 times, and clean patches for about every evening for a week, alternating between the two. I did about 4 sessions a night. The crud that came out was impressive. After every evening session, I'd run really hot water thru it to kill the ammonia, dry it and then Hoppes. At the end of the week, I could see a shiny bore like it is supposed to look. You know when to stop after the black and green sludge stops coming out. It changed the POI so much I had to sight in the scope again. In your case, after you get it cleaned...if you can...you might want to slug your bore to see what diameter it really is.

Sorry I've been working alot and haven't followed up.

here's a picture at 25 yards...forget it.. the real link is below,
thanx 99 guy...

Link doesn't work.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/geictbh1m15o9yd/20190517_070920.jpg?dl=0

SELL IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never saw a target like that.

The sideways silhouettes remind me of the time I tried to shoot 117gr roundnose .257" out of an old 250-3000.

You're going to need shorter bullets. Not lighter, necessarily, but shorter.

The slugging of the barrel showed .228, right? That .257 you mentioned is the OD of the case neck, right? Jeez, I wish I were looking over your shoulder in person!!

The easy route is to sell it. But, then it becomes someone else's headache. The moral dilemma is "do I lick the problem or do I foist it off on someone else?" Not knowing your predilections (or the state of your pocketbook), were it me I would take it as a challenge and do whatever it takes to make the old girl shoot again, even if it meant a complete makeover as discussed earlier. Would you let your dear old Mom shiver in an unheated shack or would you build her a warm house?

Next try the shortest lightest .228's that Buffalo offers. If that doesn't work then you are fortunate to have a grossly oversize bore- but, your report of .228 groove diameter is baffling.

The last time I saw a target like that was when I shot an Enfield No.1MkIII with a pristine bore- said pristine bore being darn near .320 groove diameter. The .311 bullets I sent through it keyholed all over the place. Finding some .318 bullets fixed the problem and it would then ring the 200 yard gong every time.

yes, and yes...And I agree, It is a challenge I want to overcome, although a barrel replacement is in the works, I wish I was in maryland so you could see it. BTW, some of those were bullets put through your jig.

Boox I'm not convinced a different barrel will improve your situation but this one is here if you need it. It would most likely need to be fitted by a gunsmith. Be patient, working long hours....

not to worry, I got some sweets and it seems to be working after a few 10-15 minute soaks

Yours will be fine get the right bullets.