So, on the recommendation of some savvy souls here, I got a bunch of new 25-35 brass, ran a couple through my resizer die and ended up with the attached. I'm a little concerned with what appears to be a "ring" at the top of the shoulder. Being a "newbie" I figured you wizened savage mentors could offer your opinion as to continue and use them, or do I have a problem here? The case seems to chamber fine as is in the rifle, but as I said, being a NEWBIE I am not sure of what I'm seeing. Running a S&B 5.62 x 52R case after bullet pull didn't produce said effect. Opinions?

Thanks!

Blitz

Looks fine. That will go away after firing.

What he said. 'Tis perfectly normal because the .25-35 shoulder region is smaller than the .22 HP and can't be opened out in a sizing die.

Hint: now is the time to adjust the die to give good headspace for the cartridge's initial firing. Set up the die so that small secondary shoulder is far enough forward so as to make the bolt a little tiny bit stiff to close on it. What that does is simply making the cartridge headspace on the shoulder (the small secondary shoulder you're creating) instead of the rim. The benefit to that is it minimizes the case stretching upon firing and may well help promote better case life.

yeah, what they said, "that's normal, it will go away on the first firing". Make sure it will chamber, you might need to push it even further. Check your overall brass length after resizing, and after each firing. Keep your case length tight and consistent for best brass life.

I have discovered that moving brass around into new shapes often squeezes the extra brass up into the neck length. After you have needed to trim the brass length more than twice, your risk of case head separation goes way up, toss it.

Or, save that brass that's been fired a couple times for use with namby-pamby low velocity plinker loads for another shot or two. 6-8 grains Unique and a 60 grain cast bullet doesn't generate much pressure at all and is more fun for busting empty beer cans than watching Nancy Pelosi cross a busy expressway blindfolded. On second thought...

I'm going with the second thought!

...send it to Gary

Don't send it to me! I have more HP brass than Carter's got Little Liver Pills!

Do what you want. Machs nix to me. I'm just saying that I, and the cast bullet guys I've hobnobbed with for 40 years, routinely save cases that are dodgy for 50,000psi loads for a couple more firings of mouse-fart loads.

Besides, if someone is cranking up the pressure in his loads such that he's only getting a couple shots per case, IMO he needs to re-assess his needs. There's no earthly reason to run full tilt with every pull of the trigger. It's no less manly to shoot mid-range loads than full power loads. A wise man told me once that a bullet only needs enough velocity to make it to the target and put a hole in the paper.

I found this on this forum posted by Ron. I think this is a good place to start:

Savage Model 99
20-inch barrel
Twist: 1-12
Groove Diameter: .229

Cartridge Specifications:
Bullet Diameter: .228 inches
Maximum Case Length: 2.050 inches
Trim-to-Length: 2.040 inches
Maximum Overall Length (with Bullet): 2.510 inches

Test Components:
Cases: Winchester
Primers: Winchester 120
Jacketed Bullets: Winchester 70 grain


NOTE: Variations in groove diameters are something encountered in rifles chambered for this cartridge. Most barrels have a groove diameter of .228” while a small percentage are found with a larger groove of .229". Jacketed bullets of .228" diameter work well when used in a standard groove (.228") barrel. For oversize barrels, we recommend the use of case lead alloy bullets which will expand to groove diameter.



70 Grain Jacketed Bullet

IMR3031 starting load: 24.0 grains = a Muzzle Velocity of 2433 feet/per/second
Maximum Load: 27.0 grains. MV = 2777 fps

IMR4895 starting load: 25.0 grains = a MV of 2400 fps
Maximum Load: 28.0 grains = a MV of 2754 fps

IMR4320 starting load: 27.0 grains = a MV of 2652 fps
Maximum Load: 30.0 grains = a MV of 2840 fps


ACCURACY LOAD: 25.3 grains of IMR3031 = a MV of 2604 fps

FACTORY DUPLICATION LOAD: 25.5 grains of IMR3031 = a MV of 2624 fps

NOTE: THESE MAXIMUM LOADS MAY BE DANGEROUS IN YOUR RIFLE. YOU SHOULD WORK UP TO THESE MAXIMUM LOADS CAREFULLY.


I'm just looking for the bullets to make round holes and not keyholes and go where I aim mostly. Not looking for big bang moments.

Blitz

I've experienced that re-formed brass will be good for 6,8,10 reloads with 22HP (or the 219Z, which is where most of my experience comes from). I'm using case trim length as a gauge of how much the brass MIGHT be stretching. Standard reloading protocol I know, I'm just more conscious of it when using re-formed brass.

I'm reassured by checking for that case length after each of my firings. When I find that I need to trim it again, it gives me an early warning that the brass is stretching. Brass life is probably shorter using re-formed 30-30, I get folds in the shoulder, that usually end up as splits. I imagine you could reload brass forever using your low power tincan plinking loads.

I dont reload ,,,just read about it ;-) That said ......How do you determine SAAMI CUP pressures ? Can they be determined from velocity of each reloading specs ?

Finally got my super accurate Mitutoyo calipers today and started measuring brass. The Norma and S$B cases with no bullets measure about 2.041", the reformed 25-35 cases re coming in at 2.036, a little short of the 2.04" trim to length.

Is this a problem? I'm a little confused at this point.

Thanks,

Blitz

Not to worry. Shoot 'em!

Better than "trimming required". They will get longer with future reloading.

Since this is my first attempt at reloading anything, I wanted to be sure I wasn't going to make an UNFORTUNATE newbie mistake and have my first reload do bad things. I found plenty of info for trim to length, but nothing to indicate a minimum case length. Just a maximum.

Thanks to all!

Blitz

You're good to go! Your 2.036" brass will expand toward the 2.040" SAAMI length with each firring. Check Your case length after each firring and keep track of the changes. This will give you solid statistics to gauge your brass life-span.

Brass will expand to fill the chamber when firred, it will typically flow forward with the internal expansion. When your brass is trimmed to something less than the chamber/SAAMI length, the brass will flow/expand into the empty chamber neck space.

Now, to add a little more "WTF?" to the conversation.

I used an overall length gauge to measure my HP 22 for optimal case length. I did this twice. I got 2.724" from bolt face to where the bullet engages the lands in the barrel for overall bullet length. They say to subtract .010 to .025 for optimal bullet length. That puts me at 2.7" OAL.

That is almost .2" more than the listed OAL of 2.510".

Do I have a problem? I will try to measure it using the empty case with bullet method next and see if it's repeatable.

Why am I getting a bad feeling about this?

Blitz

If they feed through the magazine no problem. COL is just a general length to insure feeding and chambering in all firearms. Load some dummy rounds - no primer or powder- to to the length you wish and see if they cycle through the magazine and chambers. If it doesn't just seat the bullet deeper until it does.

Mike

Best OAL will be specific to your rifle. Load your chosen bullet to spec length, find your best powder/charge weight. Then, if you just want to burn up powder and bullets, play with the OAL seat depth for tweeking improvements. For hunting ammo OAL is best figured for ease-of-feed as Mike offered.

I load mine at 2.55 and they cycle fine.

Joe

And now a little more of "WTF?"

I went to reload an unfired S&B case that I had pulled the bullet and powder from and ran through my RCBS HP22 resizing die with a Reeds .228 70 gr. bullet.

The case crumpled just before the shoulder, and the bullet never seated. Bad brass?

I pulled the resizing pin from the die and it measures .225. The bullet measured .228.

I found some articles that say .003" is excessive when seating bullets.

I will try one of the resized 25-35 brass cases and see what happens.

Been one of those weeks...

Blitz

Both cases buckled when trying to seat the bullet. I can actually see where the bullet stopped in the 25-35 case, as there is a ring where it has expanded.

I guess the .225 sizer isn't going to cut it. Any place to get a .227 sizer?

Or did RCBS screw up and give me the wrong expander in the HP22 die?

The die is labeled HP 22.

Indeed it would seem they installed an undersized expander plug.

First off, I want to thank all of you "Savages" for the great advice.

Now, for a little Mea Culpa with a side of crow for the Newbie.

Seems in my haste to make cartridges, I got some bad advice somewhere, not from here, I'm thinking them you-tuber's. Anyway, my fault, not theirs.

I was setting the bullet seating die, the same way as the sizing die. Thread it in till it touches the ram, then another 1/4 turn in.

Supposed to be 1 turn OUT. This puts the crimp above the case. Because I went IN I was crushing the case against the crimp.

I guess there's a REASON RCBS puts a picture by picture fold out poster in with their presses. After reading that, and a little face palm, I am now happily making cartridges with .228" bullets. Got some 60 and 70 grainers from Reeds, over 25.3 gr. of IMR 3031.

If and WHEN the range opens, I'm going to do a little comparison between them and the S&B and Norma cartridges.

I warned ya I was a NEWBIE!

Blitz.

Good show!! I committed more egregious blunders than that when I started. 50+ years now and I'm still learning!

I like pictures and if I had things my way all textbooks would have the text removed and replaced with pictures!

Give RCBS a call. They used to have the greatest customer service on the planet. I assume they still do.

I sent them an email explaining that the expander ball measures .225" and I need to seat .228" bullets. They are sending a new expander ball free of charge.

But it was operator error, not a failure of equipment.

I put a nickle between the shell holder and the face of the seating die. Back the seating rod back until it doesn't contact the bullet. THEN with the bullet in place at the case mouth turn the seater in till it contacts the bullet. Turn it n moving the bullet a little at a time and measuring each time until you get the seating depth/ overall length desired. Once you do this and develop the habit it will become second nature.

Hornady told me the same thing, but it never showed up. Hopefully RCBS will do you right.

I'm pretty sure RCBS will. I've broken couple of things over the years and called to ask if I could buy that part and they always sent it for free. Great company with customer service that excellent. I have die sets from when they put the year on them from the 70's still going strong.

Yeah, but after thinking about it some more, .225 isn't really terribly out of line for an expander for .227-.228 diameter bullets. A couple thousandth interference fit is pretty normal. I guess I should dig out my .22HP Redding dies and mic that expander.

I don't know if you mentioned this or not but I was just wondering if you chamferred the case mouth after trimming?

Rcbs has excellent customer service. Years ago I got my RCII out of storage and the ram was seized. I called them and they sent me a new one in 3 days for the cost of shipping. That press hadn't been made in a long time. They have also sent me a new expander ball for my .30-30 dies totally free of charge. It almost makes me want to start buying RCBS dies instead of Redding.

The cases where fine AFTER I set the seating die as laid out in the RCBS pictorial instruction. I had set the die IN a turn instead of OUT a turn. This was crushing the case in the die.

Like I said a NEWBIE OPERATOR ERROR!

Live and learn. When you fail, you learn how NOT to do it.

I loaded 10 cases tonight, 5 with S&B brass, 25.3 gr. IMR 3031 under a 60 gr. Reeds bullet and 5 reformed 25-35 same charge 70 gr. Reeds.

Tomorrow I'm going to do 5 and 5 with with Reloader 7.

Again, thanks for ALL your input.

Be well,

Blitz

So now that my reloading education is off to a roaring start, here's what I got ready for if and when the range opens:

S&B brass, pulled .224 bullets.
5 rounds - 60 gr. Reeds .228 jacketed over 25.3 gr. IMR 3031
5 rounds - 60 gr. Reeds .228 jacketed over 25.3 gr. Reloader 7

WInchester 25-35 reformed
5 rounds - 70 gr. Reeds .228 over 25.3 gr. IMR 3031
5 rounds - 70 gr. Reeds .228 jacketed over 25.3 gr. Reloader 7

IMR 3031 data was from forum member Ron in previous postings as an "accuracy" load.
Reloader 7 was another member, who is earlier in this thread.

As a baseline I will be also shooting:
5 rounds S&B 5.6x52R
5 rounds Norma 5.6x52R

I suspect the S&B and Norma, being smaller bullets will keyhole like in the past. I know the S&B keyhole, never shot any Norma.

I'll keep you all posted!

And of course PICTURES!

Blitz

Those powder charges are pretty warm in my experience. I wouldn't load any more like that until I saw how they did. With 3031 I like 23-24 grains with 70 grain bullets. Just a few grains less powder generates better case life and in my experience better accuracy.

my worst was having more than 1 powder on the table and using the wrong one

I pulled the charges from searches here at the 24. They seemed to be middle of the road charges. The S&B and Norma bullets had 26.4 gr. of powder in them ,which I thought was a lot.

I was going to load up some with lesser charges also just for data. Last time I shot the HP22 was with S&B and at 25 yards the bullets were hitting the paper sideways and with terrible accuracy. I have a laser bore sight to dial in the scope, then we'll go from there. Be nice to have the gun make round holes instead of oblong ones, and have the projectile go where I was aiming!

Our Imperial Guvna just dictated that "non essential" businesses will be closed until May 20th.

The public outcry and backlash is incredible, with some threats made.

I can't wait till the range is open. I'm chompin' at the bit now!

Blitz

We backed down to 23 grains of 3031 with Norma and Hornady's (probably on Gary's advice). I was surprised that my rifle shot the Hornady's to the same point of aim as the Norma's at 50 yards. Still need to see what they do at 100. I can prove that 23 grains kill deer, right now!

Nice going Joe! I see your taking care of my almost rifle Lol, did you look thru the scope or use the peep sight on the buck?

Not tellin! HA. Actually, he walked out of the far side of the field and came straight at me. Stopped to take a breather. Some one else had shot him in the rear leg and he was hurting. Used tang sight at about 40 yards. Wednesday I sent the Malcolm scope to Iron Sights to have it rebuilt and the dent taken out. I talked to the owner and he said $130 for all work with less than a 3 month turn around. Sending my Noske in to him next.

Glad to hear what sounds like a good report on Iron Sight. They were getting slammed the last time I brought them up. I'm sure you'll let us know how that goes?

Nice that your getting the old scope rebuilt! what powder with it be then its done ? Plus its a Cool old Savage!