I had a thread going about the .338 Federal.

Chrome posted this.......

I hunted one last year.

A Ruger 77 Stainless Steel Hawkeye. It would put 180 Nosler Ballistic Tips inside an inch at 100 yards. Was getting 2,740 fps.

I shot a doe (double lung shot) at 60 yards, she made a mad dash for 50 yards then crashed.
Was thinking more power than I need and sold it to a pard that hunts elk on a regular basis.

I shot a doe last week in the same area as the one taken with the .338 Federal. She was poked in the brisket with a 45 grain Barnes XLT out of a .223 and dropped DRT.

Then Steelhead came back with........

I'd much rather shoot deer with a 223AI than with a 338 Federal or it's ilk.

The above example is something I've seen over and over again.

What is happening here???


Is a whitetail just not enough to open up a bigger bullet???

bullits that it

Maybe Steelhead is just cranky and doesn't like those funky Federals?

I'd not worry much. To me it's rare that pure lung hits yield many DRT's anyway. Load up some 200 gr Hornady's and go kill some deer.

Little and fast, assuming good construction, impresses deer much more than big and slow.

Not a difficult concept to follow.

This arguement is like the old golf saying.

Drive for show, put for dough

Fast has benefits, but with big and slow you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Now if you can figure out how to make soup out of blood shot meat.

DRT doesn't make the deer taste better

Really, so how many have you shot with a little X bullet? Again more guessing.

Worth a read....

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/30-06-day.html

Shot'em with everything from a 54 cal Muzzle loader to bow including 243's

Kind of hard to drive a ford focus when I've got the pick up in the driveway - same thing with rifles.

Funny thing about personal pref. - Tell ya what - video tape some deer shot with a 223 vs. 06, show some meat damage in the shots from both and if it's a better performer I'll give it a shot.

I do know I haven't had a non-pass through on my 338 fed and 30-06 on deer - but that has some to do with the shooter as well.

Spot

It don't offend me any if a deer runs 50 yards, all I've ever said is that I've seen more drop right now with little and fast.

This year was another example, helped track a guys doe he shot with a 30/06 and 180's. Had a few of use with lights and finally found her about 175 yards away. Perfect shot, but it didn't impress her much for awhile.

The 10 point I shot with the 6mm/223 went maybe 20 yards. But to be fair I didn't plug that deer in the running gear as I typically do.


I do know I've only caught 1 223 bullet, and it's not the bullet I typically use.


It don't have to be a 223, throw an 85gr X at almost 3400 fps into the running gear and see stuff drop.

Outside CNS you can never count on a drop, but I've never found one running a 150 yards after the shot to be more preferable over one that drops there.

I have to agree with you that faster drops them more quickly than slow.

I also like shooting lighter bullets more than heavies
I may need to try the 223 tsx combo, most of the lighter stuff I've shot was with lead bullets, and that can be messy.

Tracking game is part of the deal for the most part, it isn't easy all the time - and newb's have a hard time doing it.

TSX break the rules so I'd be ok shooting a deer wtih a 223 tsx.

If an double lung arrow shot takes them down, I'm sure a 223 will do it.

Spot

Ive used them both...alot...and I usually do shoot them through the heart/lungs rather than in the front running gear.Overall my experience says little and fast and they drop over quicker, often within 30 yards. Big and slow and they will usually go 50-100 yards.


" Often" and "usually" are the operative words there...but generally ( also operative word) speaking....little and fast.....

Here is a classic Keith vs O'Connor debate ...In my younger yrs I was a believer in the big and slow mentality but as I get older, sub 30's driven faster are the way I go. I've also come to the conclusion that put one in the boiler room and it dies no matter what(within reason). I'm not a user of the Barnes X bullets but it looks as that may change and need to experiment during the off season. These are ones that look like the small and fast camp love and do it w/o excessive meat loss.

Can you imaging if the Barnes X bullets were around during the 40's and 50's where the fued may have gone....

Steely,
The 85 x at 3400, which cartridge??? I have a 243 that are going to try some of these.

I've killed an awful lot of deer over the past 35 years and I've used a wide variety of cartridges and bullets. Including everything from .222, .223., .22-250 and .243 on the small/fast side, to 12 and 20 ga. slugs and .50 caliber lead conicals from a muzzleloader on the big/slow side. In my experience, "putting one through the running gear" with anything will usually drop a deer immediately so long as the bullet has enough integrity to break bone and penetrate. The Barnes fans here prove nothing when they drop deer immediately and repeatedly with this shot placement. I've done the same many times over with 170 gr. .30-30 core-lokts, shotgun slugs and .50 cal. maxi balls. With lung shots "fast" tends to drop them a little quicker on average than "slow" providing you use a bullet that tends toward rapid expansion. The "big and slow" bullets/cartridges are very dependable killers though, and do tend to produce good blood trails. A few extra yards of tracking doesn't bother me.

What about big and fast?

Any distance parameters for a gut shot?

Big and fast will almost always sometimes work......

Thanks for the link-Good stuff.

Lot's of great articles on this site.

I may be something of a luddite but long ago I found that a heavy for calibre bullet at a respectable velocity --if your hunting bullet is going over 3000fps, you need to add some weight of metal-- will kill stuff very dead. And so I've never gotten into the "let's see what I can do with this tiny bullet" craze. If I had ever had to track a deer or elk 150 yards, maybe I'd give it a try.

Will agree on many counts...the only thing Ive shot more deer with than my 7x57 with 162s or 175s ( at a whopping 2600 fps..)was a .223...they both put venison in the freezer...and for that matter, I always liked the way a .375 H&H with 300 grainers worked..on anything..

pretty tough to argue with steelhead on this one. I have seen him pose with a lifetime supply of big dead deer always seems to have some obnoxiously colored rifle without a claw extractor and the smallest dang case you could AI.

my testing shows the 257 roy is flat amazing for making stuff fall down dead.

Small and fast and small and average gets my vote...

5.56X45's hand loaded with 64 gr Power Points have worked great for me so far. Once blew a buck's heart to mush with a 12 ga slug at 25 yards and had to track him 1/4 mile. He had thrashed out a place the size of my living room and was still thrashing when I found him. I've got a 308, 280 Rem, 7 mauser, 303 Brit, 243, 30-30, 50 cal muzzle loader, several shotguns, and a 06 that I can deer hunt with. I started using the AR 3 years ago, because it's legal here and I wanted to see what it would do. It's a lot easier to carry all day, and it gets the job done. The 53 ge TSX works well too, but the 64 Power Points aren't as spendy, and are a bit more accurate for me. It's a lot of fun, and I haven't lost one yet. I wouldn't use it for long range, but most shots here are under 200 yards.

The longest I've had deer run was with heavy caliber cartridges. Mainly due to there heavy contruction not opening up on small southern whitetail.

The longest have come at the hands of .358 Win, .350 Rem mag and 30-06. I generaly aim for the arm pit so as to save the front shoulders. A bullet built for large deer and elk do not expand properly on 125 lb. dear.

Smaller cartridges using the proper bullet is more efficient for the job. I dont need the recoil or report....

Interesting, but I've never had a problem with a 30-05 put any size deer down and quickly

But not as quick as a 223AI, in my experience and these coming from a guy who's only hunting rifle for many years was a 30/06.


85's are in a 250AI

It's not 'let me see what I can do with this little cartridge'. They flat out work, period, no trick shooting involved as has been shown again and again and again and again.


Old dogs a slow to change it seems, but fear shouldn't drive ones life.

An Axiom of Big Stick's in order of importance. Placement,bullet, cartridge.
Small better than big? I guess apples to apples it can be when big affects shot placement because of recoil, rifle weight, or muzzle blast.
Deer are easy to kill but if a trophy is the quest I am going to go with a fair sized cartridge I can shoot with a bullet that is going to expand and penetrate.

Given the speed I'm able to get from 90 grain Sierras out of my 250 Savage, I'm seriously considering going to the 80 gr. TTSX for hunting next year.

I'm thinking 3300 is well within reach.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with small.

I agree, that's why I switched to the 250AI for bear....

....and I built my 22-250AI.(grin)

"Deer hunting" covers quite a gamut.
Thinking if I ever was out after some of those big mule deer on the high plains with Scenarshooter I likely take my 7WSM 0r 260 on the small side.

If the new generations of Whitetails get so tough I can't knock them down with my 250 Savage and 87gr HotCors or the new generations of Mule Deer get so tough I can't knock them down with my 257 Roberts and 100gr Partitions, I will get out my 7x57 and knock them back a few generations with a 154 Hornady Interlock.

Even on a guided hunt for big deer and where ranges may be long?
Don't get me wrong. I have no issue with the 233 or even a Hornet for deer hunting. Deer pretty much drop right there regardless what I shoot them with ,big or small. Fast or slow.

I'm pretty sure some form of 25 caliber rifle would go with me.

If we start getting those tough ones on my lease I'll get the 150 TSX going warp nine out of my 300 Wby., that ought to handle it.

Never shot a Deer with a .223 anything, but I have little doubt they will work in the brisket as Rich calls it. I also agree with Steelhead that they will go less distance when hit there vs some of the more traditional cartridges.

My concern is how they work if things don't go according to plan and you are playing catch up. Very few are perfect all the time. I know how the traditional offerings work and I see no reason to handicap myself if I'm not perfect on the first go.

Now that I am recovering from magnum fever my 25-06 is my go to gun for whitetails and hogs. My kid brother is more in steelheads camp since he has switched to a 22-250 for deer and has been happy with it.

I almost always punch bone either going in or going out or both. I've yet to recover or seen a 62gr TSX, 75gr Swift or 70gr TSX caught by a deer from any angle.

You would recover one if you lightened up to the 53 grainer

I have now gotten two back...out of 23 deer...BOTH were the high shoulder shot, both broke both shoulders and went through spine...both found under the hide on the offside...both still weigh 53 grains...

I believe you, but I shot a Buck this year at around 40yards, from above, facing, just above where the neck meets the shoulder. .308W-130gr ttsx. I looked, but couldn't find where it came out. Didn't hit spine anywhere along the back. Damned if I know where it ended up, because I also didn't find it on gutting. Stomach was not hit. ????

[quote= Once blew a buck's heart to mush with a 12 ga slug at 25 yards and had to track him 1/4 mile. He had thrashed out a place the size of my living room and was still thrashing when I found him. [/quote]--- That is amazing-- Web

Never had the pleasure to be on a guided hunt for big deer - only DIY. On mule deer hunts where the ranges can be long, I always shorten up the distance or don't take the shot. I am realistic about my long range shooting abilities and never would consider I am in that class of shooters here on the fire. Having said that, in regards to big Mule deer I have never felt undergunned with a 257 Roberts and 100gr Nosler Partitions.

---battue--- My son shot a 7 pt 135 lb buck this year almost exactly the same way you did. It was about a 100 yard shot in heavy brush. The .308--180gr RN Interlock entered the bucks lower neck. The perfect mushroomed projectile was found just under the skin at the hind quarter. Web

It's also very rare and he might have to shoot several hundred more deer before it ever happened again. I've only had two deer go more than 100 yards in my life after taking a good hit through the heart/lungs with anythging and I've probably killed over 200 by now. One of those was a doe that I plugged broadside through the lungs from only 30 yards with a 12 gauge foster slug. I could see the slug hit and I could see blood pouring out the hole in her side as I watched in amazement while she ran all the way across a 250 yard wide field before collapsing. Prior to witnessing that performance I would have thought someone a liar if they told me a lung shot deer could ever travel that far after taking a slug through the lungs. I will say that I also have no illusions that this was something that can only happen with a big, slow projectile either, as the second time I witnessed a very similar performance was with a .270 and 150 gr. Hornady interlock @ 2900 fps.

I've had more deer fall dead faster with my .243AI + 85g TSX's than anything else I've used on deer sized game ... and that range is from the .223 up to the .30-06.

I too have come to the conclusion that a very fast moving, well constructed bullet is the best of all the options ... and that caliber size has very little to do with anything. The bullet is either good enough to do the necessary damage, or it's not. After that, there really is no difference ... at least not to me.

Now, gimme my .243AI and get outta my way ... (grin)

Years ago I ran into a guy who told me about shooting a deer with a 22-250............I think it was............said the deer dropped straight away!


Someone also said that A deer is basically a glorified groundhog.......might some truth to that!

I think on shots that take out the running gear, size and speed really doesn't matter. Same to be said for CNS shots like the neck shot I'm a fan of.

For behind the shoulder lung or heart type shots I "THINK" but don't "KNOW" that speed is the better stopper.

If i'm hunting where I absolutely don't want to track a deer the CNS or high shoulder shot is the one I take. If in a open field where them running 100yds is not big deal than behind the shoulder it is.

Fear???? The point is why fix what ain't broke.

270

No, it's fear. Thank Christ we don't all come from a group of 'don't fix what ain't broke' else we'd all still be living in a cave and driving a buggy.

The only folks I hear that cliche from are those that don't know either how something works or are lazy.

To me, this is an ideal kill and what you get 90% of the time with a double lung shot regardless of what they are shot with. The deer lives long enough to bleed out which is going to make the meat taste better. As a meat hunter, this is important to me. So, I guess I better avoid one of those 22 caliber death rays.....they kill too darn fast

I drive a older model Ford F150 4WD 4.6 liter gas pickup. My neighbor, Lonn, is driving a 2010 Dodge Ram 2500 with a 5.7 liter Hemi V8. I know how his truck works so I am relieved to know I am not lazy.

Web,

The funny thing was internal damage pretty much ended at the diaphragm. Lungs were tore-up, but past that things were clean. In the scope I could see that the Deer just fell down and rolled over on its side.

I had a good haul to get out, so I didn't spend a lot of time looking other than to notice it didn't come out in the hams or belly. The lower chest is where I'm guessing it left and I just missed it.


That Deer I had processed by another since I wanted some sticks and rolls made up for family and friends for Christmas presents. I asked them to look for the bullet and when I picked it up they said they also couldn't find the bullet or an exit. 130ttsx bullets just don't disappear so I'm thinking it came out the front third and again I just missed it.

A Doe I shot later in the week-two shots-and both exits were obvious.

battue--- What you said about your buck is almost exactly what happened to my sons buck. In the photo you can see where the .308 entered the neck ( red spot)and was recovered near the hind quarter on the same side as the entry. I've shot deer with factory 8/mm 170gr RN and .308 RN. and 6/mm. I prefer the 170-180 gr RN in .308 or 8 m/m. --Web

I hope people on here don't read this and actually start shooting them in the brisket on purpose. Some of the worst tracking job I have ever done was on deer shot low in the brisket. miles

Gee, didn't know I'd been living a life of fear. Glad you straightened me out. What's your next stupid remark?

That's my thinking and experience as well.

While a small/fast might produce more satisfying results for the instant gratification crowd, I find that if you are unlucky enough to make a less than perfect hit, you will eventually recover more that were hit with the larger bullet. If the small/fast doesn't give you the DRT bang flop that you want, you are more likely to lose that deer in the end than the one hit the same way with a larger heavier round.

The constant need to ridicule others who disagree is a SURE sign of fear.

I don't know if 35 Whelen is small or big, I call it a medium bore.
Anyhow I bought it for use as an elk, bear, moose and deer rifle.
So far it has never let me down on anything I have shot to include woodchuck, porcupines, and coyotes. (I'm still trying to get an elk and a moose)
I honestly don't think I need anything else except a 22 rimfire, to practice with and maybe a few prairie dog rifles.
Anyhow I say mediums rock! I wouldn't mind a .338 Federal for my next rifle if I needed another one.
whelennut

I agree, I was thinking more along the lines of in front of the ribs.

Kettle? Thinking it's more to do with idiocy.

Tough to fix stupid, ignorant one can work with though.

If it ain't broke don't fix it is such a STUPID cliche.

yup ... just as stupid as those who tell someone else not to worry about their problems because there's always someone out there with worse problems than yours. If that were the case, then there would only be about one person on the planet at any given moment with something "legitimate" to worry about ...

I might try the same thing with my 257 Roberts.

Wondering if that would also be a fur friendly bullet for yotes?

Web,

My description needs improvement. I guess I should have said in the neck next to the "lower shoulder". He was below me, but looking up. The shot was actually in the neck where it meets the chest.

battue-- A photo is worth a 1000 words. Very Very nice Buck. Web

Yes it is hard to fix stupid but it, like sarcastic and rude, can sometimes be covered up by keeping your mouth shut when you really don't have anything to say.

................The "SAME" animal shot in the "SAME" place, can react differently when the exact same bullet at the same velocity is used.

With that said and imho, how fast an animal drops, or how many yards afterwards it runs before dropping, will depend on how extensive the internal damage is.

How extensive the internal damage is, will depend on what any given bullet does after impact and what it does proceeding through the animal.

A larger bore with more bullet penetration, doesn`t always mean a faster drop. On hogs for example, I`ve seen the internal damage that a 225 gr bullet can do from a 375 and then compared that damage to say the 30 cal 168-175 gr VLDs. Guess what! There is more internal damage using the VLDs. Does that mean that a big hog cannot be dropped instantly with a 375? Nope, not at all!

But the one thing I believe to be quite evident is this; the more extensive internal damage that is done to the vitals, the faster the game will drop "a greater" percentage of the time.

A reasonable and proper bore diameter should be used for the game hunted, but for the most part, it is all in the type of bullet used.

Outside a direct hit to the CNS nothing is 100% predictable.
Even that has it's possibilities for a not so quick result.

..............You`re right. But! What one can do though, is play for the higher percentages in achieving more DRT possibilities.

One thing that can never be measured or predicted is each individual deer's will to live. That in it's self will determine how far it runs more than anything (besides a CNS hit). I live in KS and I have seen big deer fall and small does run when hit with the same medicine. Flame suit on.

Yes Sir!
That's why practicing placement is the critical first step.
If one can not place "big" then "small-er" appears be the better choice.
Placing "big" just might improve the odds considerably.
"Big" is pretty subjective to the individual shooter too.

Why not try to increase the odds in your favor by using the most you can handle?
If a .223 is the most a person can handle then so be it.
Bring your flashlight!
whelennut

I killed a nice Doe on Nov 19th using my 1917 Savage model 1899 in 22 Hi Power. .227" 70 grain Hornady at 2800 ft/sec. Hit her behind the right shoulder exited in front of the left shoulder at the base of the neck. She was knocked down with the impact, she kicked wildley for a few seconds, and then got up and pogo sticked jumped two or three times and fell over dead. I have also had quick kills with my 250-3000 Savage. Some of my longest tracks have been with my 308 Mauser shooting 180 grain slugs and hitting deer through the lungs or heart. I always shoot behind the front leg or at the base of the neck depending on cover and angle of the shot. Neck shots can be tricky since you need to hit the spine and a quick head move as you squeeze the trigger can result in either a missed or wounded deer.

I don't see that that is really required in any situation other than life and death encounters with dangerous game or combat.

I can say that one's being able to "handle" one rifle or chambering does not automatically result in one's being able to "handle" something "smaller."
Just too many variables.

Maybe finding what brings CONFIDENCE with trustworthy results is best.
That can be VERY subjective.