Back on Marlin Talk there was quite a bit of talk about various high pressure (40,000ish CUP) loads for the 45-70.

I may be wrong but it almost seems that many folks are rather casual about the amount of stress they subject their 1895s to.

In looking at one of the recent Hodgdon books I noticed something that might suggest caution in using some of the heavy loads.

The example was their own H4198 with a 350 jacketed bullet. They show 39,+++ CUPS with 54 grains, suitable for the Marlin, etc and then show just two grains more, 56 grains for 50,000 CUPs in the Ruger #1. That's roughly a 25% pressure jump for less than 4% increase in the charge. I know that 40,000 is often accepted by many as an acceptable pressure level in this gun and some even seem to think it okay to go a bit beyond. It is examples such as this one that make Marlin's (SAAMI) 28,000 CUP maximum seem more logical. Do what you like with yours - I'm just throwing it out as food for thought.

I guess I don't understand. Who is suggesting that the maximum load or velocity for the 45-70 in Marlin 1895 in the Hodgdon data be exceeded? Why would the prudent person do so? Why is the Marlin 1895 45-70 any different than any other rifle/cartridge combination when it comes to following accepted reloading practices and published load data?

My opinion is the 40,000 CUP loads are legitimate loads in the Modern Marlin,but having said that,I use and shoot only hunting loads that are of Max or close to it.That being one or two or so is all that is being shot out of my Guide Gun per year with a Premium Jacketed Bullet.All the rest are far below a Max pressure when just shooting for fun.Everyone said the Puma .454 levergun wouldn't stand up to the SAAMI 65,000 PSI loads and as far as I know,it has and many have tried to see with Max loads and havn't had any problems.

Just my opinion.

It just raises the point that some of these loads appear to be at a point where the pressure curves can jump sharply due to various factors. In this case there are two different guns being used (which is always the case when using any published loads: their's and your's.) We can't know exactly what all the differences are between the two guns they used but we do know that these loads are both over the pressure recommended by the manufacterer of the 1895. Working at a level that is already max or, arguably above, would seem to suggest a bit of extra care be taken in using these loads. That's all. It's no different than using any load in any gun where you have pressure curves that begin to rise sharply. In most cases we don't have published data to compare that shows that though and in most cases the loads are within the pressure spec being called for by the gun's manufacterer. I like Hodgdon powders. I like their data. There is the obvious possibility that they might want to "showcase" their products, however, which doesn't hurt anything as long as one follows careful handloading procedures. In the case of cartridges operating at these pressures one is not going to see the usual signs of excessive pressure until they have far exceeded for guns of this strength. That probably isn't going to get an experienced and careful handloader into trouble but it might easily catch a person of lesser experience off guard.

I guess the question begs asking, " At what point is it okay or not to extrapolate the data?" (The data tested used the 350 Hornady RN bullet - would another 350 grain bullet be okay to use if you all else [primer, bullet intrusion into case, distance of bullet from lands, etc] were as nearly identical as possible and one stopped at the velocity they show in an identical length barrel?) There are so many factors which can affect pressure and so little room when you have a load that can so easily jump 10,000 CUPs. Where do you draw the line? I think I recall you have worked extensively with various loadings in your 1895. Maybe you can offer some of your insight here....

I personally only use data backed by a test barrel.One example being Rick Jaimeson's testing the .450 Marlin with bullet's not used by the factory loadings,then shot thru the .450 Guide Gun.Know guessing because he took the work out of it useing both and chronographing both.

Even at 40,000 CUP there is a safety factor built in.Some load to the mid 40's and sell it and havn't been to court yet for it.Other's publish it over the internet(responsible sites).Some have tested the action and claim it's good to 50,000 and Marlin is making the .475 Linebaugh listed at 55,000 PSI in the same action.Who know's?

I will stick with 40,000 just for Hunting loads and leave the guessing to those that really know.

Best of luck.

I guess I still don't get it. To jump the 10,000 CUP increment one would have to exceed the published load by 2 grains of powder. You exceed the maximum published load for any rifle/cartridge combination by 2 grains and things will undoubtedly get exciting. Again, what is the problem if one follows accepted reloading practices and published data?

Your example of substituting components is easily answered by following the accepted practice of reducing the starting charge by 5-8% and working up back toward the maximum watching for signs of excessive pressure or velocity. I can't make sure everyone that attempts reloading is not going to run into trouble. I can, however, stress the importance of following accepted reloading practices and published load data, and using a little common sense. Beyond that everyone is on their own.

Thanks to Klickitat for pointing out that the relationship between powder and pressure isn't always linear! He's right on and it needs repeating> A TINY INCREASE IN POWDER CAN CREATE A GREAT INCREASE IN PRESSURE.
Somebody out there maybe wants to gamble their eyesight, face or hands, but like Yogi Berra said " Include me out"

I saw the leftovers of one gun blown up at shotgun pressures- wan't pretty, and the surgery needed to patch the damaged hand wasn't pretty either.

Art in Wyoming (just my 2 cents)

If you follow published Data and don't substitute componant's and use a Chronograph-That won't happen.There is a margin of error built into every load.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

All it takes is an extra turn on the Lee FC die, or different primers, or hot weather, or different brass, etc. and you find yourself in the 50K psi range. What's funny is that you don't gain a thing by pushing the cartridge/rifle this way.

What evidence can you produce that this is so? If one uses a chronograph, and follows appropriate procedures and published load data it is unlikely to happen. With a heavier crimp, different primers, different brass or hot weather if one works up from toward the published maximum and stops if either the prescribed maximum charge or the published maximum velocity is reached it is unlikely one would even get close to 50,000 psi.

DLA-I e-mailed Lee Precision about there crimp die and pressure after hereing on the Marlin forum how a heavy crimp increases pressure.There reply was,there is only so much energy in a given load.Like the load in question(Marlin Talk)It was under published max in powder charge but velocity made it a max load.Velocity is the key to being safe and not being 50,000 CUP.Granted with H-4198, 2.5 grains of powder takes you from 39,400 CUP to 49,100 CUP and velocity goes from 2002 fps to 2108 fps.That is where the use of a Chronograph is a must to be safe.The Chrono is one of the most important tool's there is to keep your loads in the safe zone.



You don't gain a thing?Really.Here is a comparison of a .308 bullet in the .308-.06 and .300 Win Mag.Same bullet,different velocities.180 grain Nosler by federal



308 Win--2620 fps--2743 energy

30-06 Spr.--2700 fps--2913 energy

300 Win Mag--2960 fps--3502 energy.



Same .308 bullet at different velocities.Seems to me you gain alot especially for the longer shot's.



45-70 300 grain Nosler and Factory 300 Partition Gold from Larry Weishuhun and Rick Jaimeson both in Guide Gun,Rick's is in the .450 Marlin.



45-70 Factory 300 grain Partition Gold.

1826 fps--2223 energy



.450 Marlin Handload with 300 grain Nosler

2333 fps--3626 energy



1400 ft lbs of energy is alot to be gained,I think.



Just my opinion.Jayco.

If you are running at 40K psi with H4198, it takes very little to hit 50K psi. Given the non-linearity between pressure and velocity, you'll never catch this with your chronograph.

That is why I chastize folks for pushing their levergun this hard.

DLA-Using H-4198 - 2.5 grains of powder goes from 39,400 CUP to 49,100 CUP.In Velocity it goes from 2002 fps(39,400 CUP) to 2108 fps(49,100 CUP)

I think I can catch that on my chronograph.2,002 fps is a max for the 45-70 Levergun(24 inch barrel) and if you work up slowly you will see on your chrono increases and not to go past this mark.

2.5 grains of powder gives slightly over 100 fps in velocity and about 10,000 CUP in pressure.With a chronograph and good data and of course common sense,there should be know problem in achieving a max load.

Any good Chronograph will tell you if your over 2002 fps period.So I think the chrono will catch it.

Just my opinion you stubborn OLD fart. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Glad I'm not getting any older or stubborner,must be the climate over there in Oregon,I see Bestlever going off the edge also.

Take care.Jayco.

If anyone doubts that there are those who will exceed published data I offer these *internet* examples that show more than a few who do.

***NONE OF THE FOLLOWING SHOULD TAKEN AS RECOMMENDATIONS***

These are from Midway's reviews of the Hornady 350 grain FN:


�

Reviews displayed for:
Hornady InterLock Bullets 45 Caliber (458 Diameter) 350 Grain Flat Point Box of 50

� Jeffrey Auton of North Pole, AK
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/27/2002
Review:
Excellent bullet for the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. I use Reloader 7 at [color:"red"] 51.8[/color] grains and this bullet, Federal M210GM and Federal Nickle Cases and apply a crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die. [color:"red"]VEL.=2000 FPS+[/color] and less than 1" at 100 yard groups. Works great on Moose and Bear up here in Alaska.
�
� Gary Bennett of Desloge, MO
� Rating:
Date Posted:�5/8/2002
Review:
An excellent bullet for the "souped-up" 45-70 Government. I load them to about [color:"red"]1950 fps[/color] and get excellent accuracy from my Marlin 1895 Guide Gun!

�
� Gary Bennett of Desloge, MO
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/7/2003
Review:
This is my favorite hunting bullet in the 45-70 government cartridge. Pushed to 1900-2000fps it drops deer like a bolt of lightening.
�
� Larry Townsend of San Jose, CA
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/10/2003
Review:
I use these exclusively in a 1895SS (not stainless) with a good charge of IMR 3031 in new Win. brass and get better than [color:"red"]2000 fps[/color] and with the 1.5 to 5 Leupold I get no flyers for 5 round 5/8" groups at 100 yards. Wild boar hate them. Awesome isn't a good enough word for these.

�
� Michael McCourry of Conway, SC
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/12/2003
Review:
This is the bullet for 45/70. Currently I run this bullet at or around [color:"red"]1950 fps[/color] from my guide guns. I have taken several animals with this bullet including moose. I have also used it in 458 WIn Mag and 458 Lott. Performance between 1600-2400 fps is great with no bullet failures. Very accurate in all rifles.

�
� Benjamin Merrell of Fairbanks, AK
� Rating:
Date Posted:�5/5/2003
Review:
I can tell you that living in Alaska there is no shortage of moose. With a 45-70 Guide Gun, this bullet and 45.3gr of IMR 4198 at [color:"red"]1950fps[/color]. This can be your critter getter! I promise!

Many of the loads recommendations made above are apparently, or obviously (the RL-7 load), above Hornady's own published data which includes loads up to 40,000 CUPs. Hornady lists nothing faster than 1900 fps when fired from a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel. Many of the Midway reviews were obtained with the 18 1/2" Guide Guns. Some people obviously load these guns hard, certainly over the 28,000 CUPs adopted by SAAMI and almost certainly also beyond the 40,000 CUPs which are accepted by some reputable sources.

Klikitarick-I hate to disagree with you as I don't know you.But not all data is documented as Hodgdon is.First off the .450 Marlin factory ammuniton was tested at 41,900 PSI and 2028 fps in the Guide Gun.As you know the SAAMI pressure for the .450 is 43,500 PSI.So all the loads you listed are under maximum pressure.RL-7 is famous for higher velocity and less pressure in the 45-70.The 45-70 and .450 Marlin are two pea's in a pod when loaded with the same bullet and powder except the .450 Marlin has less case capacity.The Winchester 45-70 brass hold's seven more grains of powder than the .450 Marlin brass when filled to the brim. Some loads tested in a test barrel from Rick Jaimeson with the 350 Hornady out of the guide gun.

58 grains of vvn-133- 2052 fps with 41,400 PSI.
58 grains of aa -2520-2041 fps with 40,200 PSI

Speer 350 grain
67 grains of aa-2520-2063 fps with 42,000 PSI
51 grains of H-4198-2025 fps with 40,400 PSI

The examples you listed were all within the 43,500 PSI or 40,000 CUP.Not all manuals are the same.Hodgdon's is the only one I would use to load a max charge as there's are documented according to Jackfish.

I bought two boxes of Buffalo Bore's 350 grain Speer when I got my 45-70.It chrono's out of my guide gun at 2114 fps.I don't know if it's the same lot,but It's posted at 39,500 CUP.Within the limit's of the modern 45-70 according to Hornady who was the first I know of to put it out the modern 45-70 can handle 40,000 CUP in 1980.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

From looking at the charges and the velocities it looks like all of those loads are likely consistent with published data. Nice try though. You are obviously limiting the sources you are referring to. Hornady does not say any of its loads are 40,000 CUP. They only say they are held to a 40,000 CUP maximum. As a matter of fact, few, if any, of Hornady's 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895 exceed 35,000 CUP.

It's kind of interesting that Hornady, who has been credited by some (Hodgdon and others) as giving the unofficial approval of strength (40,000 cups) to the modern 1895 Marlin 45-70, is now getting called into question on whether any of their loads actually get there. To quote the Hornady handbook, volume 1, sixth edition, for the 1895 Marlin: �Pressures here are held to 40,000 c.u.p. maximum.� They don�t say for certain, probably with some good reason which or even if any of the listed loads actually get there (40,000 cup). However, it would seem silly for anyone to suggest that they might and then quote only loads that were much less. It would hardly be the best light in which to showcase their product(s). It would also seem silly for Hodgdon to credit Hornady for recognizing that limit if at least some of them weren't. And whether the published loads are 40,000 or not, simply looking as some the data presented in the reviews suggests, at least, that there are more than a few folks who hot-rod this gun - or something. The last load even shows one of Hornady's own max recipes (45.3 grains IMR 4198) which gives them 1900 fps in their 22" barreled test gun while the velocity quoted is from a barrel shorter by 3 1/2." While all of the velocities shown in Midway�s reviews may be just imaginative, it would suggest at the very least that little concern is shown for issues of safety when the velocities for the short barrel exceed the velocities of the longer barrel. That, anyway, violates one of the rules that has been paraded regarding the reading of pressure with the chronograph, "Stop when published velocity is obtained whether or not the powder weight is identical and assuming all other things are identical." I had the Hornady manual handy; I didn't intentionally single it out but since it was available and the bullet was their's (and they seem to be regarded, at least by some, as the original publishers of 40,000 cup data), their's was the one I compared to.


I certainly think it would be foolhardy to assume that Hornady�s loads are most likely less than 40,000 cup - since they don�t actually say one way or the other - and can therefore be bumped up a bit. As I noted in my initial post Hodgdon lists their H4198 maximum loading for two different strength 45-70s and shows only two grains of powder (with the same bullet, same OAL) and a pressure difference of over 10,000 cup. That, from everything I know and have read, suggests that one is very close to a point of potential danger with the particular load components. The situation may or may not be the same for the other propellants. Nevertheless, the modern 1895 Marlin, while obviously strong, is no modernbolt action. It just doesn�t have room for the kind of carefree disregard for strength limits that some seem to suggest.

I know there are folks who are careful and responsible and others who intend to be. Then there are those who don�t know better or seem to care less. I don�t know if you can and are willing to shed additional light on the subject or not but it seems that wisdom would suggest more prudence than what some suggest.

Everyone has to take it upon themselves to evaluate and decide how to use the information they encounter on the internet. You have decided that there is load information provided by some that is suspect. I won't argue that. However, to suggest that it is dangerous to use load data for the Marlin 1895 45-70 that is documented to be limited to 40,000 CUP is stretching it a bit too far.

Klikitarick-I really don't see the problem here.It is proven and even documented the modern 45-70 can safely handle 40,000 CUP.If you choose not to go there,then don't.There are some who choose to do it and do it safely,so let's let them do it.There certainly is a margin of error built into it because the action has been tested way above 40,000 CUP without failure.The one's that failed were in the 70,000 category where know man want's to be.40,000 CUP is max.With a chronograph it can be reached easily without hitting the 50,000 you talk of frequently.Wild West guns has tested the action to 50,000 with know failure and yes there are some that load to the mid 40's even factory without a law suit yet.If your not comfy with it,so be it.But other's are and can get the most out of there gun without harming it or thereselves.

To each there own on this one.Good luck.Jayco.

Only 2 individuals in your examples from MidwayUSA give charge information. I would not think anyone with any sense would use those values without checking them against other sources to verify they are valid. That said, the Marlin 1895G 45-70 with the 350 grain Hornady FP is very capable of achieving 2080 fps with safe loads. Of course, it depends on the individual rifle, the source of the published load and the components used. But to automatically assume all those loads are unsafe cannot be supported without more information. Sure, one should err on the safe side and actually find out if these claims are possible, but I would not dismiss them out of hand.

You make my point very well.



There is none.



Really? Where? I only doubt it myself because I haven't seen any published data that will. That doesn't mean that there isn't some out there. I just haven't seen it. If you know please share.


As far as I know there is no way to know that you are within the 40,000 cup limit with the published Hodgdon loads without actually measuring the pressure. Of course if you have the same rifle they used and the same barrel length you might use a chronograph to estimate similar conditions but even the chrono won't do the trick if the barrel is the 18 1/2" Guide version. And to refer back to one of the points in my original post:



This refers to two grains of powder, two different guns, but a very steep pressure increase. Just why cannot be determined but it is an accepted admonition even with stronger rifles to use caution when the pressure curve begins to make abrupt changes such as that. While their data reflects two different rifles and wouldn't automatically be the same in a single gun it does, at least, suggest that the propellent used may have this tendency in this cartridge.

And to assume, as some seem to, that is possible to get a certain velocity (with their own handloads) because one can buy ammo that gets there is pointless as well. Without know exactly what components are being used commercially as well as any special methods they use, one cannot 'copy' a certain loading without pressure measuring equipment.

I don't doubt the strength of the Marlin. The early modern version I lost years ago produced plenty of power. I don't doubt that my current carbine version will serve as well and I don't mind working it to its potential. I just want to it to be as safe and reliable as the rest of the guns I own. And I really don't care what anyone else does to their 1895 except that it would be a great disservice to Marlin and a stain on the reputation of a great rifle if a bunch of these guns began to show up on the used gun racks in questionable condition.

Here's a few tested loads in the .450 Marlin Guide Gun with different bullets and pressure tested.

All in a 18.5 inch Barrel.

Barnes 250 gr X-Bullet-2383 fps at 41,700 PSI
Barnes 300 gr X-Bullet-2100 fps at 41,400 PSI
Nosler 300 gr Part-2333 fps at 40,600 PSI
Sierra 300 gr SP-2328 fps at 41,500 PSI

Hornady 350 gr Interlock-2052 fps at 41,400 PSI
Speer 350 gr FNSP-2063 fps at 42,000 PSI

Speer 400 gr FN-1856 fps at 40,500 PSI
Swift 400 gr A-Frame-1928 fps at 40,900 PSI

Hornady Factory 350 gr Ammo-2028 fps at 41,900 PSI.

All in the Guide Gun and pressure checked by a test barrel and the SAAMI max for the .450 Marlin is 43,500 PSI.So as you can see in the 350 grain loads that 2063 fps out of the Guide Gun is still under the SAAMI max.

Brian Pierce tested the .450 Marlin and the 45-70 Guide Gun,s on his chrono at 15 Degree's with the 450 Marlin factory ammo doing 1917 fps and Buffalo Bores 350 Grain 45-70 at 2,010 fps.Almost 100 fps faster than the .450 Marlin Factory ammo in 15 degree Idaho weather.This lot of 45-70 ammo was pressure checked at Hodgdon at 39,500 CUP.

So in my opinion even with different bullet's the velocities are well within the limit's of 43,500 PSI or 40,000 CUP.

There are a lot more examples with a test barrel that show these velocities are achievable,but I don't want to spend the whole night trying to copy them.
Jayco.

Klikitarick-This was a reply from Hodgdon powder reguarding a load using three different componant's than listed in the Hodgdon manual and was called into question by the user,so he e-mailed to be sure.A 300 grain Nosler at 2282 fps out of the Guide Gun.Here is the responce from Hodgdon about different componant's and there load data and velocities.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your loads should be just fine and certainly within the operating limits of your rifleYou may be running slightly higher pressures than our test data due to the use of the nickel plated brass and factory crimp. Nickel plating of brass does decrease the capacity of the brass by a tiny fraction and the factory crimp does a better job of retaining the bullet than a standard roll crimp. The increase in pressure over our results would be minor.



Some folks would point to the velocity you are getting and say that your pressures must be high to get this level of performance from your short barrel. There can be several explanations for this. Variation in chamber, throat, bore, different primers, brass, bullets and, of course, the test equipment can all cause changes in resultant velocity/pressure. As I am certain you are aware, pressure is not linear with velocity. And, as is commonly known, we shoot SAAMI test barrels with minimum chamber, bore, throat dimensions which means that, on average, consumer firearms will get lower pressure with the same loads due to increased chamber size and easy of bullet passage in the bore.



The bottom line here is that you are getting no signs of pressure that would indicate any problems. There is no research that would indicate your brass would give significantly higher pressures than the same brand of brass without plating. There is no research suggesting that there are significant differences in pressure caused by changing brands of large rifle primers. You are not experiencing any type of indication which would lead us to conclude that you have any problem at all using this load in your rifle.



Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see there was know cause for concern.
Jayco.

Hodgdon #27
45-70 Government Marlin 1895
350 grain Hornady RN
Winchester brass
CCI 200 primers
54 grains H4198 MAXIMUM
2191 fps in a 24" barrel
In most Marlin 1895G rifles this load will certainly exceed 1950 fps or even 2000 fps, and will most likely achieve 2050 to 2080 fps. And yes a chronograph is very useful in working up a load in an 18.5" barrel that is published from a 24" barrel. And more common sense than fear, as well.

You continue to grasp at straws. There is no way of really knowing you are within the 60,000 PSI limit that SAAMI establishes for the 30-06 SPRG either without measuring the pressure. That sure hasn't stopped people from working up and using published maximum loads for the 30-06. That is a red herring.

Your quote of a 25% increase in pressure with a 4% increase in the charge assumes that someone would exceed a published load for the Marlin 1895. No one here is suggesting that would be done except you. So it is a red herring as well.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the Hodgdon 45-70 data for the Marlin 1895, whether it has a 24 inch barrel or an 18.5" one. Adapting load data to individual rifles and components is a very real part of reloading and it is done all the time. And done safely by the vast and overwhelming majority of those who do it. You can't control what any one person is going to do. But it is just plain wrong to suggest that a 350 grain 45-70 load achieving over 2000 fps in the Guide Gun is necessarily dangerous.

The Marlin 1895s that have been properly used with 40,000 CUP loads are not the ones that are going to end up on the gun racks in questionable condition.

Here is the comparison of 350 grain .458 bullets shot in a 24 inch test barrel and then the 18.5 inch Guide gun.



2216 fps to 2052 fps-164 fps difference.VVN-133 W/350 Hornady-41,400 PSI

2170 fps to 2041 fps-129 fps difference.AA2015 W/350 Hornady-40,200 PSI

2235 fps to 2063 fps-172 fps differenceAA2520 W/350 Speer-42,000 PSI

2153 fps to 2025 fps-128 fps difference.H-4198 W/350 Speer-40,100 PSI



Or an average of 148 fps difference from the 24 inch barrel to the 18.5 inch barrel and all within the pressures of the .450 or 45-70.

Logcutter,

Thanks for the info on that. While I know that can be useful I would like to see the credible published sources for some of these 2000+ fps Guide Gun loads for the 45-70. I realize that the same loads developed in a smaller case (450) will likely show less pressure and velocity out of the slightly larger case (45-70). Can it be done without extrapolating? In other words, is there published data that reflects similar possibilities? As you undoubtedly know reading pressure signs at 40,000 is not that same as reading them at higher pressures so knowing before you get far beyond that point seems prudent.


Jackfish,

While you might believe that I am �grasping at straws� that is not my intention. I would just like to get some clarity since the issue (heavy loading the 1895) seems to be fairly common. If this is indeed as simple and safe as some make it out to be including, I think, yourself, then data should be relatively easy to produce. I am aware of the Hodgdon data you quote. That is the same source I quoted in my initial post at the top of this thread. I have gone over this before but I�m not sure you�re getting at what I�m saying in regard to that load. Maybe I haven�t been clear on this point so I�ll try again. Hodgdon lists, as you and I have both quoted, 54.0 grains MAXIMUM of H4198 for 39,X00 CUPs in the 1895. They also show a MAXIMUM load for the Ruger #1 of 56.0 grains same powder, same primer, same case, same bullet, same OAL, same barrel length, but those additional two grains show an increase of pressure up to 50,000 cup in the Ruger rifle. I AM NOT suggesting that that might be a useful load for the Marlin. All I�m saying is that it appears to be a load which could easily be very close to a sharp pressure curve increase. In some guns that pressure may spike at a somewhat lesser loading than the 54.0 grain maximum while others may take more. Since the Marlin rifle is not as strong as a good bolt action it is not possible by an ordinary means I am aware of to tell if you have reached or gone beyond the pressures published there. True, people load the 30-06 and many other higher pressure cartridges in stronger guns right up to the maximums listed but those stronger guns can contain higher excess pressures than can the Marlin. The cartridge case itself and other factors warn of excesses at the higher pressures that cannot be known at excessive lesser pressures that a Marlin might be subject to.

As I�m sure you know, the advice in any good handloading manual is to work a load up watching for signs which might indicate pressures beyond what is acceptable. While most published loads seem to be fine in most rifles, there are exceptions. Those acceptions are rare enough that it is tempting to assume that the manuals are intentionally conservative for various reasons. Yet, if you have ever had a gun that has, for some reason, been intolerant of normal published loads you will look at this issue quite differently I�m sure. Since there are fewer pressure signs at the lower pressures that the Marlin can safely contain the need for solid data is very important in my opinion. This is reinforced by the fact that loading to 40,000 cups is considerably over the 28,000 cups approved by the manufacterer of the gun. And while the gun does have a widely accepted reputation for strength greater than 28,000 cups the higher levels do obviously decrease the safety margin which the gun can contain over and above the higher limit.

The issue is not nearly as difficult to understand as it is to try to explain. You have, for the most part, been a decent and civil respondant to my queries and I appreciate that. It does seem, however, that you are trying to avoid the issue to some extent. I do believe you know those aren�t �red herring� as you call them. I believe this issue is real. While maybe not impossible, I am not convinced that the 2000+ velocities are easily obtained in the 18 1/2� barreled Marlin 45-70. There is an apparent dearth of data to support it anyway. And I suspect that the gun is frequently abused by those who attempt to do it without doing their homework. I was hoping you or someone else might produce sources for more than the single published load which I already have (and has the potential difficulties previously outlined.)


Logcutter,

Thanks for that last data as well. Would you mind revealing the source?

Klikitarick-I too am quite suspect of loads that are near a max charge,as we should be.I take absolutely know data reguardless who it is from unless there is pressure data with it.There is a lot of it on the internet and from some notible people who some might just take there word for it.Not me.When I work up a Hunting load,I use the chrono and other factor's to determine when I am close to max.The classic signs don't show up at 40,000 as you know.But with the chrono and case expantion which increases consistanly with increases in powder charge and recoil,one can get pretty close with the chrono being the first line of defense. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The article was from Rick Jaimeson and the .450 Marlin.I have the magazine article which goes into detail more with charts etc.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/ShootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=40

Have a good one.Jayco.

Klikitarik,



The clarity you seek is exactly what you continue to obfuscate. You exhibit your bias by saying �heavy loading the 1895.� Would you say working up and using loads within the safe operating pressure of the 30-06 is �heavy loading� the 30-06? I don�t think so. But for some reason when referring to working up and using loads within the safe operating pressure of the 45-70 in the Marlin 1895 it is proposed something disastrous will occur. It is simple and safe and the data to support it has been produced. Hodgdon currently is the only source that documents pressure barrel tested loads to 40,000 CUP for the Marlin 1895 45-70. That is enough for me, but obviously not enough for you. Other sources say they limit 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895 to 35,000 or 40,000 CUP but do not document the pressure of those loads. The Hodgdon data suggests that that with a powder of proper burning characteristics the 350 grain bullet can be safely driven over 2000 fps in the Marlin 1895G. Without pressure testing similar loads for IMR4198, Reloder 7, Vihtavuori N133, Accurate Arms XMR-2015, ADI AR2207, IMR 3031, Norma N-200, and Norma N-201 the additional published information is not yet available. However, the Hodgdon data is repeatable and therefore valid. I get 2150 fps with that load out of my 22� barreled 1895. I�ve been shooting that rifle since 1977 and within the last ten years it has seen a steady diet of maximum loads with the 405 grain Remington JSP. I don�t consider it �heavy loading� anymore than I would consider loading a 139 grain bullet to 3150 fps in a 280 Remington Ackley Improved a �heavy� load. A maximum load within the safe operating pressure of a cartrudge/rifle combination is just that, the maximum load that can be used over the expected service life of the rifle. It is a load that allows the rifle to withstand the stress of firing and return to stasis without undue wear or affect on servicability. The hyperfear exhibited over the 45-70 by some segments of the industry and shooting community is based on a long history of complicated factors. However, the facts bear out that the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is at least 40,000 CUP and there is no more danger achieving that level than there is in reaching maximum loads for any other cartridge/rifle combination.



You have been plenty clear about your confusion over the characteristics of and potential use of 45-70 loads intended for the Marlin 1895 and the Ruger #1. First, you suggest that the Hodgdon maximum load of 54 grains of H4198 used in some rifles will reach dangerous pressure levels due to individual characteristics. This may be true, but it is the case with every other cartridge/rifle combination. You seem to be proposing that the Marlin 1895 45-70 is somehow different, I contend it is not any different than any other carrtidge/rifle combination that we use maximum load information for. All of the techniques, procedures and cautions are generally the same for the use of published maximum load data for any cartridge/rifle combination. There is nothing inherently different with the Marlin 1895 45-70. The limit developed for it is based on the same considerations that are used to develop the limits for any other cartridge/rifle combination. Second, you claim that there is some kind of pressure spike because of a change in charge not intended for the Marlin 1895 creates a larger increase in pressure. It is not unusual for relatively fast powders to exhibit larger increases in pressure as the loading density increases. To assume that that will necessarily occur at a lower loading density is not correct no matter the individual characteristics of the rifle. It is irrelevant that the Marlin 1895 is not a �good bolt action�, as pointed out before the limits developed for it are based on the same considerations as for any other cartridge/rifle combination. It is all relative, and does not suggest that the Marlin 1895 is any more prone to fail when working around maximum pressures than doing the same thing with a �good bolt action.� A bolt action is certainly stronger than the Marlin 1895 but they are not necessarily designed to contain higher excess pressure. A proof load for either is a prescribed percentage of excess and does not mean the Marlin 1895 will fail sooner than the bolt action given relative increases in pressure. The cartridge case of the 45-70 certainly can indicate excessive pressure in the Marlin 1895 as well as those cartridges used in a bolt action. Extraction, case lengthening and pressure ring expansion can be just as reliable in the Marlin 1895 45-70 as extraction, primer condition and pressure ring expansion is in a bolt action.



The best tool we have in absence of pressure testing equipment to consistently work up maximum loads for any cartridge/rifle combination is the chronograph used in conjunction with published data. Velocity in excess of the published maximum velocity is a very reliable sign that one has gone too far. It is not difficult to estimate the expected velocity for loads in rifles of different barrel lengths. There are more than enough indicators that become evident in the Marlin 1895 45-70 to become aware that one might possess an exception. There are not necessarily fewer pressure signs with the Marlin 1895, but there are adequate pressure signs.



This has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. Marlin is a member of SAAMI and must promote SAAMI standards. The SAAMI pressure specification for the 45-70 is based on the vast number of older weaker rifles in circulation. However, the standard does not even protect them as many older Springfield Trapdoors should not be subjected to more than 19,000 to 21,000 CUP. Marlin�s support of 28,000 PSI for the Marlin 1895 is institutional, not technical. Essentially the same rifle is industry standard loaded to over 40,000 CUP in at least two instances. There is no more decrease in safety margin loading the Marlin 1895 to 40,000 CUP than there is loading any other cartridge/rifle cartridge combination within its safe operating pressure. That argument is another of your red herrings.



I still believe many of your arguments are red herrings. They are really not relevant to the issue at hand. It is not anymore dangerous to work up to and use a published maximum load following accepted reloading practices for the Marlin 1895 45-70 than it is to do so in any other cartridge/rifle combination. The non-issue you promote is not borne out by the facts. There is sufficient information to show that the Marlin 1895G can indeed achieve 2000 fps with a 350 grain bullet, even if you refuse to believe it or believe it has to be dangerous. I don�t doubt there are many people who have pushed the Marlin 1895 over the limit and continue to do so at their peril. I remember well T/C Kid and his iterations on the Big Bore Lever Rifle forum on Marlin Talk. But anyone who follows accepted reloading practices and uses Hodgdon #27 data for the Marlin 1895 45-70 are not in that group.



Again, the potential difficulties you refer to exist for the reloading of any cartridge/rifle combination and the Marlin 1895 is not somehow inherently different or more prone to mishap than any other.

Greetings Gents
You need to go on over tho Leverguns.com site and see the post by Jim Taylor and Buck Elliott about this topic.
http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2060

If the link dosen't take you there, go to the General Discussion and then to page two. The topic title is Strongest Lever Action. I must read.

30-30 Man

Wow, very impressive for a armchair hunter. Maybee we should change your handle to BLOWfish after writing that book <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Are you going to contribute something worthwhile to the debate or just spew more of your inane drivel? Man, I must have really bruised ya. Poor thing!

3030man-Hey thanks.That was some good reading from people that really know .Some good testing and results that I have never seen before.
Thanks again.Jayco.

Everyone's been over this before and ran in into the ground. If you want a 45-70 there are lots of manuals and loads that will make your gun shoot from mild to mean but if you want a 700 nitro express, just buy one and don't waste everyones time trying to "take it to the max" in a gun that wasn't designed for it. I have an old Krag that shoots fine with ordinary reloading manul loads. If I wanted a 300 Weatherby Mag I sure wouldn't see if I could stuff a bunch more powder in the Krag and hold it all together with duct tape!

Tired of it in the U.P., Krag

I think the equation is +P45/70=450M but I could be wrong and that is backwards. It might be 450M=+P45/70. In any advent I whole heartily agree with Krag. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phil

This thread has been quiet for awhile but I have read it with great interest.

This is one mans opinion and rational for limiting the Marlin 45-70 to 40,000 psi.

http://www.real-guns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

I think the African hunting talking heads over at AR would say that the .458" 300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point has a woefully inadequate sectional density for a dangerous game load. A .458" 450 grain bullet (.306 sectional density) launched 2125 fps would yield 4500 fpe, however, those same talking heads would say that it was still inadequate by not reaching the minimum 2150 fps desired for a DGR.

Every thing is in the numbers even if proven wrong.We all know the 45-70 or the 454-475-500 some pistol calibers can kill the big 5 while others that meet the criteria have failed in performance.I personally wouldn't take the 300 Nosler or the 45-70 to africa even if they met the criteria.There are better choices out there for Africa.

That's what the joke is about.If a .450 Marlin could meet the criteria with a bullet designed for 45-70 velocities then something is wrotten in Denmark.Never been a big believer in SD-TKO-Energy etc.

Just my opinion and I don't bring it up over there.Jayco.

I hear ya on that one.

The reason thepresure is going up with so litle increase in powder is because 4198 is so fast burning. Use rel. 7 or varget or ww-748. You can get max velocitys with much less presure.