Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin Talk +P loads for 45-70

Back on Marlin Talk there was quite a bit of talk about various high pressure (40,000ish CUP) loads for the 45-70.

I may be wrong but it almost seems that many folks are rather casual about the amount of stress they subject their 1895s to.

In looking at one of the recent Hodgdon books I noticed something that might suggest caution in using some of the heavy loads.

The example was their own H4198 with a 350 jacketed bullet. They show 39,+++ CUPS with 54 grains, suitable for the Marlin, etc and then show just two grains more, 56 grains for 50,000 CUPs in the Ruger #1. That's roughly a 25% pressure jump for less than 4% increase in the charge. I know that 40,000 is often accepted by many as an acceptable pressure level in this gun and some even seem to think it okay to go a bit beyond. It is examples such as this one that make Marlin's (SAAMI) 28,000 CUP maximum seem more logical. Do what you like with yours - I'm just throwing it out as food for thought.

I guess I don't understand. Who is suggesting that the maximum load or velocity for the 45-70 in Marlin 1895 in the Hodgdon data be exceeded? Why would the prudent person do so? Why is the Marlin 1895 45-70 any different than any other rifle/cartridge combination when it comes to following accepted reloading practices and published load data?

My opinion is the 40,000 CUP loads are legitimate loads in the Modern Marlin,but having said that,I use and shoot only hunting loads that are of Max or close to it.That being one or two or so is all that is being shot out of my Guide Gun per year with a Premium Jacketed Bullet.All the rest are far below a Max pressure when just shooting for fun.Everyone said the Puma .454 levergun wouldn't stand up to the SAAMI 65,000 PSI loads and as far as I know,it has and many have tried to see with Max loads and havn't had any problems.

Just my opinion.

It just raises the point that some of these loads appear to be at a point where the pressure curves can jump sharply due to various factors. In this case there are two different guns being used (which is always the case when using any published loads: their's and your's.) We can't know exactly what all the differences are between the two guns they used but we do know that these loads are both over the pressure recommended by the manufacterer of the 1895. Working at a level that is already max or, arguably above, would seem to suggest a bit of extra care be taken in using these loads. That's all. It's no different than using any load in any gun where you have pressure curves that begin to rise sharply. In most cases we don't have published data to compare that shows that though and in most cases the loads are within the pressure spec being called for by the gun's manufacterer. I like Hodgdon powders. I like their data. There is the obvious possibility that they might want to "showcase" their products, however, which doesn't hurt anything as long as one follows careful handloading procedures. In the case of cartridges operating at these pressures one is not going to see the usual signs of excessive pressure until they have far exceeded for guns of this strength. That probably isn't going to get an experienced and careful handloader into trouble but it might easily catch a person of lesser experience off guard.

I guess the question begs asking, " At what point is it okay or not to extrapolate the data?" (The data tested used the 350 Hornady RN bullet - would another 350 grain bullet be okay to use if you all else [primer, bullet intrusion into case, distance of bullet from lands, etc] were as nearly identical as possible and one stopped at the velocity they show in an identical length barrel?) There are so many factors which can affect pressure and so little room when you have a load that can so easily jump 10,000 CUPs. Where do you draw the line? I think I recall you have worked extensively with various loadings in your 1895. Maybe you can offer some of your insight here....

I personally only use data backed by a test barrel.One example being Rick Jaimeson's testing the .450 Marlin with bullet's not used by the factory loadings,then shot thru the .450 Guide Gun.Know guessing because he took the work out of it useing both and chronographing both.

Even at 40,000 CUP there is a safety factor built in.Some load to the mid 40's and sell it and havn't been to court yet for it.Other's publish it over the internet(responsible sites).Some have tested the action and claim it's good to 50,000 and Marlin is making the .475 Linebaugh listed at 55,000 PSI in the same action.Who know's?

I will stick with 40,000 just for Hunting loads and leave the guessing to those that really know.

Best of luck.

I guess I still don't get it. To jump the 10,000 CUP increment one would have to exceed the published load by 2 grains of powder. You exceed the maximum published load for any rifle/cartridge combination by 2 grains and things will undoubtedly get exciting. Again, what is the problem if one follows accepted reloading practices and published data?

Your example of substituting components is easily answered by following the accepted practice of reducing the starting charge by 5-8% and working up back toward the maximum watching for signs of excessive pressure or velocity. I can't make sure everyone that attempts reloading is not going to run into trouble. I can, however, stress the importance of following accepted reloading practices and published load data, and using a little common sense. Beyond that everyone is on their own.

Thanks to Klickitat for pointing out that the relationship between powder and pressure isn't always linear! He's right on and it needs repeating> A TINY INCREASE IN POWDER CAN CREATE A GREAT INCREASE IN PRESSURE.
Somebody out there maybe wants to gamble their eyesight, face or hands, but like Yogi Berra said " Include me out"

I saw the leftovers of one gun blown up at shotgun pressures- wan't pretty, and the surgery needed to patch the damaged hand wasn't pretty either.

Art in Wyoming (just my 2 cents)

If you follow published Data and don't substitute componant's and use a Chronograph-That won't happen.There is a margin of error built into every load.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

All it takes is an extra turn on the Lee FC die, or different primers, or hot weather, or different brass, etc. and you find yourself in the 50K psi range. What's funny is that you don't gain a thing by pushing the cartridge/rifle this way.

What evidence can you produce that this is so? If one uses a chronograph, and follows appropriate procedures and published load data it is unlikely to happen. With a heavier crimp, different primers, different brass or hot weather if one works up from toward the published maximum and stops if either the prescribed maximum charge or the published maximum velocity is reached it is unlikely one would even get close to 50,000 psi.

DLA-I e-mailed Lee Precision about there crimp die and pressure after hereing on the Marlin forum how a heavy crimp increases pressure.There reply was,there is only so much energy in a given load.Like the load in question(Marlin Talk)It was under published max in powder charge but velocity made it a max load.Velocity is the key to being safe and not being 50,000 CUP.Granted with H-4198, 2.5 grains of powder takes you from 39,400 CUP to 49,100 CUP and velocity goes from 2002 fps to 2108 fps.That is where the use of a Chronograph is a must to be safe.The Chrono is one of the most important tool's there is to keep your loads in the safe zone.



You don't gain a thing?Really.Here is a comparison of a .308 bullet in the .308-.06 and .300 Win Mag.Same bullet,different velocities.180 grain Nosler by federal



308 Win--2620 fps--2743 energy

30-06 Spr.--2700 fps--2913 energy

300 Win Mag--2960 fps--3502 energy.



Same .308 bullet at different velocities.Seems to me you gain alot especially for the longer shot's.



45-70 300 grain Nosler and Factory 300 Partition Gold from Larry Weishuhun and Rick Jaimeson both in Guide Gun,Rick's is in the .450 Marlin.



45-70 Factory 300 grain Partition Gold.

1826 fps--2223 energy



.450 Marlin Handload with 300 grain Nosler

2333 fps--3626 energy



1400 ft lbs of energy is alot to be gained,I think.



Just my opinion.Jayco.

If you are running at 40K psi with H4198, it takes very little to hit 50K psi. Given the non-linearity between pressure and velocity, you'll never catch this with your chronograph.

That is why I chastize folks for pushing their levergun this hard.

DLA-Using H-4198 - 2.5 grains of powder goes from 39,400 CUP to 49,100 CUP.In Velocity it goes from 2002 fps(39,400 CUP) to 2108 fps(49,100 CUP)

I think I can catch that on my chronograph.2,002 fps is a max for the 45-70 Levergun(24 inch barrel) and if you work up slowly you will see on your chrono increases and not to go past this mark.

2.5 grains of powder gives slightly over 100 fps in velocity and about 10,000 CUP in pressure.With a chronograph and good data and of course common sense,there should be know problem in achieving a max load.

Any good Chronograph will tell you if your over 2002 fps period.So I think the chrono will catch it.

Just my opinion you stubborn OLD fart. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Glad I'm not getting any older or stubborner,must be the climate over there in Oregon,I see Bestlever going off the edge also.

Take care.Jayco.

If anyone doubts that there are those who will exceed published data I offer these *internet* examples that show more than a few who do.

***NONE OF THE FOLLOWING SHOULD TAKEN AS RECOMMENDATIONS***

These are from Midway's reviews of the Hornady 350 grain FN:


�

Reviews displayed for:
Hornady InterLock Bullets 45 Caliber (458 Diameter) 350 Grain Flat Point Box of 50

� Jeffrey Auton of North Pole, AK
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/27/2002
Review:
Excellent bullet for the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. I use Reloader 7 at [color:"red"] 51.8[/color] grains and this bullet, Federal M210GM and Federal Nickle Cases and apply a crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die. [color:"red"]VEL.=2000 FPS+[/color] and less than 1" at 100 yard groups. Works great on Moose and Bear up here in Alaska.
�
� Gary Bennett of Desloge, MO
� Rating:
Date Posted:�5/8/2002
Review:
An excellent bullet for the "souped-up" 45-70 Government. I load them to about [color:"red"]1950 fps[/color] and get excellent accuracy from my Marlin 1895 Guide Gun!

�
� Gary Bennett of Desloge, MO
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/7/2003
Review:
This is my favorite hunting bullet in the 45-70 government cartridge. Pushed to 1900-2000fps it drops deer like a bolt of lightening.
�
� Larry Townsend of San Jose, CA
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/10/2003
Review:
I use these exclusively in a 1895SS (not stainless) with a good charge of IMR 3031 in new Win. brass and get better than [color:"red"]2000 fps[/color] and with the 1.5 to 5 Leupold I get no flyers for 5 round 5/8" groups at 100 yards. Wild boar hate them. Awesome isn't a good enough word for these.

�
� Michael McCourry of Conway, SC
� Rating:
Date Posted:�2/12/2003
Review:
This is the bullet for 45/70. Currently I run this bullet at or around [color:"red"]1950 fps[/color] from my guide guns. I have taken several animals with this bullet including moose. I have also used it in 458 WIn Mag and 458 Lott. Performance between 1600-2400 fps is great with no bullet failures. Very accurate in all rifles.

�
� Benjamin Merrell of Fairbanks, AK
� Rating:
Date Posted:�5/5/2003
Review:
I can tell you that living in Alaska there is no shortage of moose. With a 45-70 Guide Gun, this bullet and 45.3gr of IMR 4198 at [color:"red"]1950fps[/color]. This can be your critter getter! I promise!

Many of the loads recommendations made above are apparently, or obviously (the RL-7 load), above Hornady's own published data which includes loads up to 40,000 CUPs. Hornady lists nothing faster than 1900 fps when fired from a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel. Many of the Midway reviews were obtained with the 18 1/2" Guide Guns. Some people obviously load these guns hard, certainly over the 28,000 CUPs adopted by SAAMI and almost certainly also beyond the 40,000 CUPs which are accepted by some reputable sources.

Klikitarick-I hate to disagree with you as I don't know you.But not all data is documented as Hodgdon is.First off the .450 Marlin factory ammuniton was tested at 41,900 PSI and 2028 fps in the Guide Gun.As you know the SAAMI pressure for the .450 is 43,500 PSI.So all the loads you listed are under maximum pressure.RL-7 is famous for higher velocity and less pressure in the 45-70.The 45-70 and .450 Marlin are two pea's in a pod when loaded with the same bullet and powder except the .450 Marlin has less case capacity.The Winchester 45-70 brass hold's seven more grains of powder than the .450 Marlin brass when filled to the brim. Some loads tested in a test barrel from Rick Jaimeson with the 350 Hornady out of the guide gun.

58 grains of vvn-133- 2052 fps with 41,400 PSI.
58 grains of aa -2520-2041 fps with 40,200 PSI

Speer 350 grain
67 grains of aa-2520-2063 fps with 42,000 PSI
51 grains of H-4198-2025 fps with 40,400 PSI

The examples you listed were all within the 43,500 PSI or 40,000 CUP.Not all manuals are the same.Hodgdon's is the only one I would use to load a max charge as there's are documented according to Jackfish.

I bought two boxes of Buffalo Bore's 350 grain Speer when I got my 45-70.It chrono's out of my guide gun at 2114 fps.I don't know if it's the same lot,but It's posted at 39,500 CUP.Within the limit's of the modern 45-70 according to Hornady who was the first I know of to put it out the modern 45-70 can handle 40,000 CUP in 1980.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

From looking at the charges and the velocities it looks like all of those loads are likely consistent with published data. Nice try though. You are obviously limiting the sources you are referring to. Hornady does not say any of its loads are 40,000 CUP. They only say they are held to a 40,000 CUP maximum. As a matter of fact, few, if any, of Hornady's 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895 exceed 35,000 CUP.

It's kind of interesting that Hornady, who has been credited by some (Hodgdon and others) as giving the unofficial approval of strength (40,000 cups) to the modern 1895 Marlin 45-70, is now getting called into question on whether any of their loads actually get there. To quote the Hornady handbook, volume 1, sixth edition, for the 1895 Marlin: �Pressures here are held to 40,000 c.u.p. maximum.� They don�t say for certain, probably with some good reason which or even if any of the listed loads actually get there (40,000 cup). However, it would seem silly for anyone to suggest that they might and then quote only loads that were much less. It would hardly be the best light in which to showcase their product(s). It would also seem silly for Hodgdon to credit Hornady for recognizing that limit if at least some of them weren't. And whether the published loads are 40,000 or not, simply looking as some the data presented in the reviews suggests, at least, that there are more than a few folks who hot-rod this gun - or something. The last load even shows one of Hornady's own max recipes (45.3 grains IMR 4198) which gives them 1900 fps in their 22" barreled test gun while the velocity quoted is from a barrel shorter by 3 1/2." While all of the velocities shown in Midway�s reviews may be just imaginative, it would suggest at the very least that little concern is shown for issues of safety when the velocities for the short barrel exceed the velocities of the longer barrel. That, anyway, violates one of the rules that has been paraded regarding the reading of pressure with the chronograph, "Stop when published velocity is obtained whether or not the powder weight is identical and assuming all other things are identical." I had the Hornady manual handy; I didn't intentionally single it out but since it was available and the bullet was their's (and they seem to be regarded, at least by some, as the original publishers of 40,000 cup data), their's was the one I compared to.


I certainly think it would be foolhardy to assume that Hornady�s loads are most likely less than 40,000 cup - since they don�t actually say one way or the other - and can therefore be bumped up a bit. As I noted in my initial post Hodgdon lists their H4198 maximum loading for two different strength 45-70s and shows only two grains of powder (with the same bullet, same OAL) and a pressure difference of over 10,000 cup. That, from everything I know and have read, suggests that one is very close to a point of potential danger with the particular load components. The situation may or may not be the same for the other propellants. Nevertheless, the modern 1895 Marlin, while obviously strong, is no modernbolt action. It just doesn�t have room for the kind of carefree disregard for strength limits that some seem to suggest.

I know there are folks who are careful and responsible and others who intend to be. Then there are those who don�t know better or seem to care less. I don�t know if you can and are willing to shed additional light on the subject or not but it seems that wisdom would suggest more prudence than what some suggest.

Everyone has to take it upon themselves to evaluate and decide how to use the information they encounter on the internet. You have decided that there is load information provided by some that is suspect. I won't argue that. However, to suggest that it is dangerous to use load data for the Marlin 1895 45-70 that is documented to be limited to 40,000 CUP is stretching it a bit too far.

Klikitarick-I really don't see the problem here.It is proven and even documented the modern 45-70 can safely handle 40,000 CUP.If you choose not to go there,then don't.There are some who choose to do it and do it safely,so let's let them do it.There certainly is a margin of error built into it because the action has been tested way above 40,000 CUP without failure.The one's that failed were in the 70,000 category where know man want's to be.40,000 CUP is max.With a chronograph it can be reached easily without hitting the 50,000 you talk of frequently.Wild West guns has tested the action to 50,000 with know failure and yes there are some that load to the mid 40's even factory without a law suit yet.If your not comfy with it,so be it.But other's are and can get the most out of there gun without harming it or thereselves.

To each there own on this one.Good luck.Jayco.

Only 2 individuals in your examples from MidwayUSA give charge information. I would not think anyone with any sense would use those values without checking them against other sources to verify they are valid. That said, the Marlin 1895G 45-70 with the 350 grain Hornady FP is very capable of achieving 2080 fps with safe loads. Of course, it depends on the individual rifle, the source of the published load and the components used. But to automatically assume all those loads are unsafe cannot be supported without more information. Sure, one should err on the safe side and actually find out if these claims are possible, but I would not dismiss them out of hand.