I always thought it would be neat to use black powder in an "old" lever actioned rifle on a deer hunt. Any particular problems that would prevent me using a 94 winchester or even a marlin 336 with black powder for the occasional hunt and would it be better to use cast bullets as opposed to regular jacketed bullets with the lower velocity I would expect?
Lots of experience reloading, none at all with black powder, or the cartridges mentioned for that matter!

The only reason I havent used BP for mordern shells is the
cleaning problem on modern rifles. I had a H&R BP rifle and the powder leakage into the receiver would jam the firing pin in about 15 shots. I beleive it would ruin a lever action in a year or 2. you simply can not eliminate the problem. a regular muzzle loader is easy to clean compared to say a marlin lever.JMO

I shot a few one time in a 30-30 loaded with pyrodex. It was not all that dirty but again I just shot a few. I loaded the case as full as I could and compressed it. In fact I vibrated a couple to settle it as much as I could. I loaded 170 grain sierra 30-30 bullets and I am not where my records are but it was slow. I asked either here or on the old shooters web site and the consensus was that I could not get enough pyrodex in a 30-30 case to be dangerous. I could have used them to kill deer at medium to short range. miles

The cartridges mentioned were not originally loaded with BP. Could certainly be done but the same velocity could be had with reduced smokeless loads. Cleaning would be a bother in lever guns, but not impossible...was done for decades in the old Winchester guns. Single shots would be easier of course and cartridges such as the .38-55 more practical.

I did that for fun many years ago, but that was long before I started keeping notes on my reloading, so I can't tell you exactly how I did it. Like Hurbert said, with real blackpowder, you are going to have a big cleaning job on your hands.

Back during that same time period, I also loaded up a bunch of 12 guage BP shells and shot them at a country club skeet range. I was invited not to bring anymore of them when our group got back to the club house looking like ole Bricktop.

Not the same class of cartridge, but Chip Mate, who is at the top of the lever action silhouette game, possibly the top shooter, shoots a .44-40 using black powder. Not 100% certain of the chambering, but pretty sure of the caliber. He uses a fairly simple method of managing fouling during a match. If my memory serves me, I'm thinking his rifle is a Henry replica, as it doesn't have a forearm. Pretty cool to watch this tall lanky cowboy type beat the heck out of shooters with modern Marlins (like me).

Paul

Yep, that's definitely a Henry.

I'm guessing you would get about 1200 to 1400 fps with a standard weight bullet in any of those calibers with BP, so you would have the ballistic equivalent of a .357 Magnum revolver. Should work OK for deer up to 100 yards if you do your part.

Those cartridges can be loaded with bp, the result may be less than stellar. I have not loaded the 32 special, but the difference between it and the 32-40 are very slight, and the 32-40 is known historically as one of the more accurate match shooting cartridges.
The 35 remington I load with smokeless and haven't ever had the urge to shoot it with black.
The 30-30 will benefit greatly by adding one of the lubed felt wads for a 31cal cap and ball revolver on top of the powder.
I would suggest if you try any of those 3 to use 3f blackpowder, fill the case to just short of the mouth and then use a Lyman "M" die to compress the wad and powder to just short of the base of the neck. Don't use any more crimp on the bullet than it takes to take the flare out of the case mouth.
Cleaning up after firing blackpowder is not as hard as those on the internet that haven't done it, always seem prone to make it out to be.
Start by opening the action and pointing the ejection port down So when you push the patches down the barrel they fall to the floor/ground). Then blow a few deep moist breaths down the barrel. Then push a dry patch down the bore with a jag on the end of your cleaning rod. Follow that with a damp patch (just water works fine) followed by a couple of dry patches, and repeat until the patches come out clean. At this point you may need to use your favored lead mining technigue if your patches show grey streaks or splotches.
Liberal coat the bore and the inside of the action with your favored bore cleaner. put the gun up until the next outing, don't forget to wipe the oil out of the bore before shooting.
cleaning the cases, deprime the cases, drop into a coffee can with about 1/4 inch of simple green in the bottom, when all the cases are deprimed and in the can fill with water until all the cases are covered. Shake the can for a little bit. Then flush with cold water until the water comes out of the can clear. Spread cases with mouths down to dry, when dry put them into the tumbler and make them sparkly again. If you're not going out in public and don't care if you have grubby looking cases skip the tumbler part.

I know some folks don't like bore snakes, but here it seems to be a good option to pull the BP residue out through the muzzle, if you have an action that does not allow a conventional cleaning rod. Now how you clean the snake afterwards...that may be interesting...

Or variations on that theme. Note my comment above about Chip's method. With black powder, there is a difference between managing fouling, and cleaning, albeit with similarities. Fouling management involves keeping fouling uniformly soft, and not allowing excessive buildup, during a shooting session or match. Cleaning means total removal of firing residue and protection of the bore.

I agree with my friend Ranch13, it isn't nearly as difficult as some make it out to be.

Paul

That is about what I remember with my pyrodex tests. I was simply trying to get an idea what would work in a worst case scenario and a person needed to kill some meat. I do remember deciding that I could kill deer but would need to get close. miles

I'm not sure how you'ld ever get one of those boresnakes clean enough to use again after 1 pass down a bp fouled barrel.
Maybe one of the Otis things where you could change the patch would be alright.

Chip's method: Piece of weed trimmer line, pointed at one end, melt a blob to stop the patch at the other. Lifetime supply for pennies.

Your choice of cleaning juice.

Paul

That is fine for the bore but what about the receiver ? if you don't think those cartridges don't leak powder then you haven't fired many. they are of a lower pressure than a smokeless powder load and do not seal the chamber as good, so there is more leakeage.been there done that.

Bullspit.

????

Yeh means you're talking out your ass about things you don't have a clue about.

you want to shoot black powder go ahead.I have done it and will not put a black powder cartridge in any modern firearm unless it is easy to dissamble. the trap door is an easiest to clean I had 3 of them and fired black powder in them.. PS. I have done things dumb azzes like you only dream about.

Good advise...blackpowder is a damm mess in a levergun.

Stupid statements by more folk with no experience. Par for the 24hr course, of course.

why am I being attacked, I am only sharing lessons I have learned in my 65 years of hunting and shooting. I guess some people have nothing more to do in their boring lifes.

If you have to ask, I'll tell you why. Because you are espousing a bunch of garbage that is not only untrue but it further propagates lies and mythology that damage several different sports and shooting activities. Please simply stick to what you know, which is obviously not blackpowder cartridge rifles.

What gets passed around on this forum as gospel is just nauseating.

I can't make it any clearer than that.

I am withdrawing all my statemnts, there are no way to talk to a fool. I have checked
his other posts and now know what a dipchit I am involved with. He thrives on calling people names on the innernet.

Surely you could do better than that. IF you knew what you were talking about. But you don't. the fact is that many people do it on a regular basis without the slightest problem. So, you connect the dots. They can and do, you can't and don't. You ain't got a clue. That's how it works.

People are fasinated by blackpowder. It's ok in guns that aren't hard to clean. That's not the case with leverguns. The crud turns into acid when mixed with humidity. It's a pain to completely disassemble a 336 receiver. I've only been at this for nearly 50 years. A novice will say it's ok because they are a novice. Don't do it....

*Wanders off muttering*
Remind self to tell all those BP CAS shooters that their guns are going to dissolve from the acid in the BP residue.

any comments I made is for the average shooter not a competior.
The average shooter will not clean his firearms properly, I have bought guns that never saw a black powder load that were so gummed up they simply would not operate.the competion shooters will take care of their guns and probably never have a problem, use common sense and stop muttering.

Sadly, not cleaning is not cleaning. Lever guns clean easily, and Marlins in particular come apart so simply it is ridiculous. Even average shooters can do it. Guys like Swamp are far far below average so that explains his problems with wiping down a 336 but anyone with normal coordination and intelligence can do it blindfolded.

I believe Chip Mate said he cleans the action of his Henry only once per year. And it sees a lot more shooting that the average person's rifle for certain. These guns are not hard to operate with black and they will not dissolve into a pile of rusty dust at a moment's notice.

and frankly, I am finding that they shoot a lot better with black too.

Actually you'll find average shooters clean their firearms, it's the idiots that don't.

see brents comments regarding swampy

If fifty years of any experience were all that wonderful, the world would be run by us grey beards, and it isn't, fortunately. Plenty of young fools just become old fools. Wisdom doesn't come automatically.

Paul

Shooters don't need to clean their firearms if they avoid blackpowder. If you don't have a life then you have hours to properly clean a gun that wasn't designed to use blackpowder in.

If you had a brain, you could strip, clean and reassemble a Marlin rifle in about 5 minutes. But you have to have a brain. Guess you missed out.

PS. They were designed to shoot black powder. Another issue you missed for lack of a brain.

Not properly...nor can you. It's very clear you have no idea what you're talking about. That's nothing new....novice....sheesh!

The 336 was not designed to shoot blackpowder.

The 336 is a round bolt version of the 93/94 etc. It comes apart exactly the same way. And cleans exactly the same way.

and not only can I, I did as recently as yesterday.

I'd love to see some pics of your rifles swampy, taken with a bore scope, just to see these miracle non cleaning rifles and the condition of the bores.
Would probably explain a lot about your shooting.


p.s. did it hurt when your mama dropped you on your head?

I've fixed dozens of rifles just by getting their owners to stop cleaning them. They went from 1.5 MOA to .5 MOA in no time. A novice will clean his rifle everytime because it used to be necessary. Once a year is plenty these days. I received an email from Iraq from about 50 Scout Snipers agreeing with my never try to hunt with a clean rifle comments. The 336 isn't designed to shoot blackpowder in. It's nothing like a 93/94.

Yep, sure you did, cause every sniper fires fouling shots before lining up on a muzzie.

Do you know what company of Henry rifle this Chip Mate is shooting?

I see Uberti is selling Henry rifles for about $1300.

It is a Uberti

Thanks.

He appears to be shooting the case colored one is that correct?

That I can't say for sure but it sure looks like it.

Uberti makes a decent rifle that's for sure.
Their revolvers aren't bad either and I'd love them to make an entry level 1911

Again thanks.

That is intriguing, a Henry shooting .44-40 black powder. I see Uberti are not cheap any more. Price is right up there with a Shiloh Sharps rifle.

ummmm.....riiigghhhttt.....

He may have a point.

I had a Marlin 1894 Cowboy with 24" barrel and Ballard rifling, the caliber was .44 mag. I shot only factory smokeless ammo. A friend on mine who had one just like mine except in .45 Colt told me not to really clean the rifle as I would not be able to hit the side of a barn standing in the barn.

I found out he was right. I would remover the bolt and clean it and wipe the down the bolt face but I never really cleaned the barrel. I would just use an oil patch down the barrel followed by dry patches to remove the loose residue but that was it. If I cleaned the barrel by removing all the copper with a brush and bore cleaner until the barrel shined I could not put any rounds on a man size target at 25 yards. As long as the barrel was dirty the rifle shot reasonable well.

I talked with one of our police snipers out at our range one time who had just come back from a sniper school who said the schools sniper rifles were never cleaned until after all the classes were done for the year. Bolts were cleaned and dry patches run down the barrels to remove the loose stuff but that was it. The school claimed to many rifle were ruined from to much cleaning and by cleaning I mean the extreme cleaning that many of us were taught to do.

Sinclair says the same thing, the best way to ruin a top barrel is to scrub the barrel spotless clean on a regular basis.

I no longer scrub my barrels. I use Kroil oil to clean the barrels getting out the loose stuff and leave everything else as is. I only scrub the barrel spotless if the barrel starts to lose accuracy because what the heck have I got to lose. Take this for whatever it's worth.

"He may have a point."

Yup, a [bleep] pointed HEAD.

GTC

Just because you're a novice doesn't mean you can't learn. I've offered to help you with your shooting problems and the offer stands.

I don't beleive a word of not being able to hit a man sized target at 25 yds. plain BS. I can hit a man sized target with a rifle at 25 yds without any sights even if you cleaned the hell out of it. don't beleive me? scrub your rifle and let me shoot at you at 25 yds with no sights.

I shot CAS for years. I used a Uberti 1873 in 44-40. It's probably the cleanest round to use with BP, because the thin case expands better to seal it.

You still need to clean though. It's part of owning a gun.

You can't, I sold the damn thing!

If I still had it I'd clean the thing and let you take the first shot and would be reasonable safe you couldn't hit me.

Seriously, the more scrubbing you did the worse it got. Eventually, I just left the barrel dirty and it shot reasonably well.

Swampy's track record of idiotic posts leaves him with little credibility, even when he occasionally says something that might have some merit. Like the boy who cried wolf. That said, an optimal cleaning regimen depends on several factors, including the type of ammo and the status of the bore, as well as the accuracy requirements of the type of shooting. For example, a gilt-edged benchrest barrel would require a different cleaning regimen than a surplus military rifle. I believe there is general agreement that a perfectly clean and dry bore is not best, being prone to metal fouling with the first shot. Lead bullet barrels, including .22 rf, seems to do best with some degree of seasoning. However, even .22 benchrest shooters clean their bores at certain intervals. Back in the '80s, Lones Wigger said he cleaned after every box of .22 ammo. Some of the old time .22 bullseye shooters never cleaned a bore, but that school seems to have had its day.

Oh yeah, here's another recent gem from Mr. Minute-of-Angle, from a recent post on a .45-70 Marlin:

"Without a scope it's a 25 yard gun." Priceless!

Paul

I clean, well actually Ingwe's team cleans, my Ruger/Kidd match bench rest .22lr about every 500 rounds. The rifle, clean or dirty, shoots far better than I can shoot.

One thing that makes me nervous going the black powder route is that I'm not very good at cleaning. I mean, cleaning is a chore I try to avoid as much as possible. I think I'm going to have to change my strips if I decide to shoot black powder.

Benchrest .22 shooters are now cleaning as often as every target (about 25 shots).

DD, cleaning a blackpowder rifle is so easy it is ridiculous. It just takes a little bit of instruction, patches, water and some gun oil.

Unless you get lead fouling, but metal fouling can be an issue with any type of rifle.

I agree, the difficulty of cleaning BP guns is a myth.

IMO, nothing is as bad as trying to get copper fouling out of a barrel.

Paul

I use Kroil oil on my .308 Win. stuff works good because it's penatrating oil. It penatrates the barrel steel and I have found that metal and even powder fouling is almost no- existance. I wonder if Kroil oil could be used on a black powder barrel after the water treatment. Sinclair put me onto the Kroil oil.

I have not used Kroil but I would suggest no. Not as a rust-preventative. But there are lots of good oils to use. Personally I use NAFTA AT fluid after cleaning my rifles.

For reasons I can't explain and which may or may not be valid, many BP shooters don't like to have petroleum based products in their bores. Ballistol is popular, and some use bullet lube. There are probably many things that will work OK. It ain't high tech.

Paul

Ballistol is the hot tip, and you can dilute it with water.

Possibly, but why would you? I've tried mixing it with water for wiping solution, and it acts somewhat like water soluble oil, but it didn't seem as uniform as typical WS oil.

I sure wouldn't put water in it if I were going to use it as a bore preservative, or any other application to prevent rusting.

Paul

You dilute it for cleaning. You use it straight for protection.

It's also diluted, and used for a patch lube on muzzleloaders.

That's my take on it.

I still prefer NAPA WS oil for wiping solution for BPCRs, but Ballistol solution would work, especially if you didn't want to bother with multiple products. I just found that it didn't go into solution as readily as the WS oil. Shooters use all kinds of "juices" for wiping. Brent uses plain water, and you can't argue with the accuracy he is achieving.

Paul

Plain water works fine. I use a little Ballistol, because I like to clean with really hot water. That can give flash rusting, but it's not an issue with some Ballistol in the water.

We all get into habits, and that's how I like to do it. It's hardly the only way.

The biggest thing about using Kroil is to get it and all traces of it out of the barrel before firing the next shot, or it'll strip lead worse than what you had when you started.

Wrong , Don,.....

read the label, that chit is bloody TOXIC,....anything that "penetrates Steel" (which is b.S. and Hype)

All this jive azzed hype about our rifles dissolving from BP residues is being spread around by a KNOWN troll / moron,......

and supplemented by greenhorns.

I'm one of the "No Petroleum" camp, at least here in the Desert SW. TC 1000 and my regular bullet lube seem to protect my barrels and actions just bloody FINE.

The N.W. Coast of B.C. is a different proposition,.....

Bottom line,like Brent D said this [bleep]' IDIOT Swampy, and a coupla' others is spooking people off of good sport, and they know chit from bean dip about what they're putting down / "talking About".

WTF does that azzwhole even POST here ? last I looked it IS a BPCR site.

GTC

I'd like to hear the post that had "Merit", Mister.

The guy's a jack off, and a toxic idiot, that writes here for some weird trollish gratification.

He's a 'Re-enactor" and wouldn't make a pimple on a dedicated BPCR shooter's azz.

GTC

Thanks for the info. Scrap it Clyde.

Thanks for the tip.

Thanks for the tip and I'll try and remember if I go this route.

Well, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt considering my poor memory, but since you called me on it, I can't think of a single example.

You summed him up pretty well.

Paul

I tried it for BP and as Ranch13 said - I had a leading problem. After eliminating the Kroil - the leading stopped.

Interesting.

So what is the broader principle here? Is it specific to Kroil or a certain class of lubricants? Bore too "clean", an absence of seasoning?

Paul

Paul you can visit with Steve Rhodes about it, but I think it's because the stuff is slick enough it lets the bullet skip, thru the barrel instead of sliding smoothly.

Not sure. Only thing I know is my leading stopped when I quit using Kroil.

Ranch, with due respect to Steve, I'm not sure anybody really knows for certain what happens inside the bore. Without laboratory facilities, most of what we do is speculation. Intuitively, I wouldn't think that Kroil is particularly slick, it viscosity is certainly on the low side. I do know that some shooters prelube their bores before firing after cleaning. Some use bullet lube, perhaps in combo with something else.

Besides, I don't want to bother Steve right now. He's working on a rifle of mine, and I want him to keep at it.

Paul

Well Paul, best I can tell you is from my own experience with the stuff, is that if I don't use something to get it out of the bore, then the leading will come right back with a vengance. If I follow up Kroil with something like turpentine (which I tend to use more to remove leading than anything else these days) then leading won't happen again until something goes awry such as blowing a patch , or not using good fouling control with a greaser.
The old deadguys that wrote the reloading instructions in the Sharps and Remington catalogs told us not to use to much lube on the patch or the bore as it would cause the patch to skip in the rifling and cause poor shooting.

Well I can see that if I go this BPCR route my thinking has to change from high speed copper bullets to low speed lead bullets.

Of course, about the time I decide to go this route lead will be banned in the US.

Do what I'm starting to do, Tim,

Gather enough lead to be able to shoot non-stop for fifty or so years.

Since I shoot on my own property, I will probably get away with it.

Ed

If I live another fifty years I won't need any lead except to shoot myself. I'd be a 115 years old!

As to property, move to Montana will ya, so I have a place to shoot.

with 500 gr bullets swallowing a pound of lead for every 14 cast, a fella is either going to have to have a pile about the size of the mogollon rim, or not shoot very much to last that long.

I'm going to try to stock up enough to run a moto-cross or monster truck track on top of the pile.

Should last me a few days.

Ed

Tim,

When I hit the Powerball lottery I'll buy a place where we can shoot to our heart's content.

Ed

BPCR has nothing to do with gunking up a 336 Marlin and rusting it to the point it won't function in a month or 2. Blackpower may be fine in big bore single shot rifles and for folks that have a day or so to disasseble and clean them as soon as possible after spending a day shooting them. With smokeless you don't have to clean them at all.

Completely true....if you can't see what you're shooting at past 25 yards. Even if you can, past 75 yards is unfair to the animal.

Somehow it worked out for this guy.

And these guys
http://44henryrifle.webs.com/civilwarusage.htm

If you are shooting on your own property, with an earthen backstop, you should be able to reclaim a large amount of that to reuse. miles

That's what I did,sort of. Shoot alot of 22 and pistol off my deck. Took a shipping pallet and built a 2' high 3' x 3' box on top of it with 2x4 corners and a poly tarp liner. Filled it with fine concrete sand and faced the frt of it with rr ties. Occaisionally you need new ties on it. Once a year you sieve the sand, get back your lead and rebuild the setup.It's safe and saves my lead to be recast. I have a swinging target in frt for 22 use or use a paper target with a cardboard backer for group shooting or sighting in. At 100+ yds I move to the pasture and use a cutbank down in the draw as a backstop. The biggest savings of course is my TIME and gas when I want to shoot. Magnum Man

You're an idiot, spreading falsehoods, or trying to, amongst those who KNOW better.

GTC

He is a self-admitted troll, whom you pegged accurately the other day:

"The guy's a jack off, and a toxic idiot, that writes here for some weird trollish gratification."

He has admitted stirring up the crap here just because this is a mostly unmonitored site, and he does it just because he can.

He has no shame, and does not deserve to share the company of sportsmen and riflemen. Best to ignore him, however tempting it is to call him out.

Paul

Ya know Swampy, I have actually never posted in the bowhunting forum here at 24HourCampfire. That's because I have very little experience to share, and no interest in it, at least at the moment, so I have no questions about that sport.

Since you have no knowledge to share, nor interest in actually shooting BPCR - the esssence of this forum - how about if you just shoo away?

[quote=milespattonIf you are shooting on your own property, with an earthen backstop, you should be able to reclaim a large amount of that to reuse. miles [/quote]

Depends on what you're shooting at for a target. Shooting steel about all you get back is the "dimes" unless you miss alot and can find the bullets. You can get some from the dirtbank behind a paper target if you dig deep enough.

Your very nice Tex, I'd like to go to Florida and park that golf cart on his neck, and set the brake. LOL

Gunner

Are you implying that I share that company here?

Just trying to unspeard yours. There's no reason to encourage a novice to ruin their firearm.

Thousands of shooters in CAS use BP in lever guns. If a novice chooses to use BP in his lever gun he has to accept the responsibility to keep it clean. It's not the BP that will ruin the gun. It's the owner.

I would never discourage anyone from using BP. I think it's the most fun powder you can shoot, and a big part of our history. It should never go away.

All that's fine and understood. In CAS it's necessary. You gain nothing in the cartridges and firearms we are talking about except poor performance and an extensive clean up session.

Sort of the same challenge of hunting with a muzzleloader.

I once went hunting for deer with my CAS 1873 44-40. It brought me back to when that's what they had to use. I knew it's limitations, and it made the hunt different. More fun. I knew I had to get the deer within almost bow range, and I loved the challenge.

Clean up?? Shot hundreds of BP 45/70 through my 1895SS and the receiver is VERY RARELY powder fouled. Barrel cleaning as usual for BP ammo. No biggy and the 45/70 round w/420 gr gg slug is quite accurate and plenty powerful enuff that I'd use it for 200 yds at deer. Good sights are the key.

I'm not implying anything, azzhole, I'm saying that clearly you are not a member of that company.

I can't figure out whether you are dumber than a box of rocks, or delusional, or both.

The community of serious BPCRs shooters is relatively small, and several of the regulars here are well-known, including winners of major competitions, gunsmiths, and published authors in firearms journals. They have earned the title of rifleman.

You, on the other hand, have offered nothing in the way of qualifications, other than your empty claims of expertise, and junior high level insults, including accusations of lying, which you wouldn't dare make if you weren't hiding behind a computer screen. You are like somebody who plays miniature golf passing judgment on and claiming to be the equal of professional golfers.

As crossfire put it, you wouldn't make a pimple on the azz of a real BPCR shooter.

Have you no shame, sir, have you no shame?

Paul

If nobody plays with Swampy, he'll have to play with himself.

....continue to play with himself

I keep the company of those I respect. That's less than 5 people. I don't offer false advise to those who don't any know better. I see no reason to try to get a novice to ruin his firearm. I guess you think that's ok?

Well, that explains everything. Since everyone here knows better, you are happy to offer false advise. Just to stir up the pot I guess.

Go bother your friends.

You assume too much.

The only person who has posted advice likely to damage guns is you, and you have been repeatedly called on it.

I doubt anybody here GAS whether you respect them or not. That you claim to not respect the well-established experience and expertise of this assemblage says volumes about you.

In over 10 years on the Campfire and over 6700 posts, you could count on one hand and have fingers left over the times I have been confrontional or uncivil to anybody. I'm not bucking for sainthood, it's just the way I choose to be, but I don't tolerate either me or my friends being called liars.

Congratulations. Now go away and stamp your silly little boots.

Paul

He would still be playing with himself if he could but he lost his magnifying glass and tweezers.

I'll stick around to help those who might consider shooting blackpowder in guns that are designed to use it. There's just no good reason to do it.

A Marlin 336 comes apart really easy to clean.

Way easier that the lever guns that are made to shoot BP.

If you're willing to completely disassemble it down to the last screw to get the acidic mixture out it's a piece of cake. A few grains of Unique will give the same velocity with no cleaning at all ever.

wrong forum Swampy. Get lost

You are just a stupid mofo that wouldn't know deep annealing cartridge brass from one of your "re-enactor" buddy's member deep in your fundament.

Define (or try to) "deep annealing", and how it plays into gas blowback..... you idiotic corn holer.

ya' WON'T,....pronto,....go google it, and play with yer' [bleep]' costumes.
GTC

I use about 8 patches total in a 60 shot match, 1 between relays and 3-4 with ballistol and water to clean, followed by 2 or 3 with Kroil to look for lead. I also leave the Kroil in the barrel to protect. Befor I shoot the next match, I use 2 dry patches to remove the Kroil, seldom get any lead. The action gets wiped down with the last Kroil patch, the block seldom comes out of the rifle(shiloh). Probobly pushing 8-10,000 rounds through it, still not corroded and still shoots great! Some just want to make something out of nothing. Black powder is easy to cleanup.

Paul, you've givin' rocks a bad name. Spent some time analyzing rocks awhile and found they mostly know their limitations and remain silent unless you've been doin' peyote or something similar.

You can do anything you want to with your brass. It won't keep the crud from filling up the action, and coating all the metal inside and out.

So that's the problem, your mama fired of a BPCR round in your ear and filled your head with crud.

Just trying to keep the novices from ruining their leverguns. I'm not selling or pushing anything as some here do.

"Don't be so humble - you are not that great."
- Golda Meir (1898-1978)

Not tring to be great...just trying to prevent goobers from misleading those who don't know any better, and save a few firearms from ruination.

You need to give a novice more credit.

Obviously you failed. You are the only novice here and you still continue to do dumb things.

Meaning no disrespect, Gentlemen (Swampy excluded) but why are you responding to this troll at all?

As a fart in church, it brings momentary discomfort, but then dissipates and is just a rude memory, so should ANYTHING he posts.

Just my $0.02

Ed

Ed, your spot on. Just hard to pass up sometimes. But I shall practice restraint a bit better.

I always dial my azzwhole setting over to the "Farts smell like little white Mints" setting before farting in church.

Jeez, Man,...you're really RUDE, aren't you ?

Go read your azzwhole owner's manual, play with your settings,....and than get back to us .

Oh,..GFY, Swampy.

You never HAD a setting, other than smelly and rank,...

No, you ladies need to quit offering poor advise.

"The fundamental cause of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)

"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
- Bjarne Stroustrup

"Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain."
- Friedrich von Schiller (1759-1805)

"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959)

One of the first things a new shooter should learn is how to clean their gun. You really have no point, but i'm learning that you love to argue when you have no point.

I wonder what new shooters used to do in the old days when there was nothing buy BP?

True words. I like old Lord Russell. I have a book of his top essays.

In the old days they didn't have 336 Marlins or any of the smokeless cartridges mentioned. Most of the guns they did have were ruined in a few short years. Muzzleloaders had their barrels freshed onece a year. That's why early (18th century) guns now have such huge bores.

"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)

"Write drunk; edit sober."
- Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961)

Speak from personal experience, not just about what you've read about in books. If you do (and read) like myself for 40 years you can have an opinion.

"Half this game is ninety percent mental."
- Yogi Berra

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know."
- Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

Lots of original 1873 Winchesters exist today. 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 BP guns. Very complicated to take apart compared to the 336 Marlin. I can take the 336 completely apart is less than 5 min.

So that's why we have .50, .54, .58 caliber Hawkins. Here I thought it was because the Pennsylvania Rifle did not have enough horse power to kill Grizzles, buffalos, and elk.

Ya mean my .45 will grow up someday? Dang....had no clue.

Yup, it might grow up to be a .54 someday.

BTW: you have been on a roll with those quotes of yours lately. I've been chuckling to myself quite a bit on this forum.

No you can't. You might get the bolt out in 5 minutes. It takes more than an hour to completely disassembe a 336. The you have to completely clean the 70+ parts, lube them, and reassemble. 1/2 days work.

It's really clear you girls don't have a clue.

The dead speak of you in chorus:

"His ignorance is encyclopedic"
- Abba Eban (1915-2002)

"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
- Henry Ford (1863-1947)

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

"If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance."
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

"Many a man's reputation would not know his character if they met on the street."
- Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

One screw to remove the lever, and the bolt slide out. That takes you 5 minutes? It takes me 30seconds, or less. No wonder it takes you an hour to take it apart.

You've obviously never taken a 336 apart.

Never owned a 336, but do have a pre '35 vintage Marlin 94 which I can completely disassemble in about 5 minutes save for sight removal and removal of the firing pin. Not sayin' I want to do that on a regular basis, but it's about as simple as dirt.

My Win 94 is not quite that easy, but gimme 10 minutes and I can hand you a box of parts.

"The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it."
- Mark Twain's Notebook

"Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid."
- Mark Twain, Following the Equator, Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar

"If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."
- Mark Twain, Notebook, 1894

I'm talking about everything in the receiver. Very easy. Why would I want to take the mag tube apart every time? Even so, it wouldn't add much time to it.

The point is, it doesn't take long to clean it. It's just part of owning a gun.

Reloading is what takes a long time. Not cleaning the gun.

Unique would produce the same results but you don't have to clean ever. With smokeless It doesn't have to be part of owning a gun. Reloading is much simpler/faster too.

Were you shooting black powder when you shot that "8 year old" deer in the azz? If not, did the Unique assist you in any way? Do you clean your guns prior to getting off your golf cart?

You're missing the point. Shooting BP is a 336 Marlin 30-30 isn't because it's better. It's fun, and it's a challenge.

As a muzzleloader. You should understand that.


edit...I forgot. You shoot smokeless in your ML. Maybe you don't understand?

"I have a hobby. I have the world's largest collection of sea shells. I keep it scattered on beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen some of it." - Steven Wright

I don't use blackpowder or Unique in a .30-06. I've never shot a deer anywhere other than the heart. I don't clean my barrels. I do wipe the outside down with Breakfree CLP. I use BH209 in my muzzleloaders so I don't have to clean them.

'Unique'

Look you stupid mofo, this is a BPCR forum,.....go the [bleep] away,

.......you got some kinda' goddam DISEASE, or something ?

Stupid question , that .

GTC

You're knowledge of anatomy is, apparently, on par with your expertise on BP.......

The heart is now located in the azz of a deer. You'll excuse me if I continue shooting them in the front shoulder.

George

You better have a conversation with Western Powder. They'll tell you BH 209 is corrosive.

I must have bought one of your old CF guns. I had my gunsmith look it over, and he said he never saw rifling so gummed up. It didn't shoot for crap! Which is rare for a Rem 700. After scrubbing the barrel for 2 hours I finally got it clean. Shot MOA then.

You NEVER clean your muzzle loader? You never ever?

BlackHorn 209 is awesome.

Yes, Greg, I am REALLY rude! I interject myself into conversations that I should really stay out of and call my brethren accountable for fanning the flames of eternal stupidity.

I got the idea from changing the settings on my patented "Azzhole-O-Matic" attitude adjustment device, and followed the settings of a well known curmudgeon Border Rat whom I call Friend!

Y'all carry on, particularly the "DD Twins", who have it nailed!

Ed

It must be awesome. I have found even white powder has to be cleaned once in a while to make things work right. I guess Black Horn 209 makes all other white and black powder obsolete!

What is white powder?

Jesus wept...

So am I. I can't believe what i'm reading from Swamp.

"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."
- Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

"Digital Dan The Quote Man"
-MauserHunter (1942-2xxx)

I'm working on an automatic "Idiot Detection" mode for my auto butt setting program.

In the presence of REAL idiots, it will shift from 'Little white Mint Farts" over to "Really RANK Chili Farts", without any manual input.

...........still in R&D,......and nothing you want to have in place on a first date, or a visit with old friends.

GTC

And You're a [bleep]' idiot,

(stamps foot),.....Shoo !

GTC

"It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with confidence, stands a good chance to deceive."
- Following the Equator

You haven't got the cajones to keep your own posts current, you loudmouthed cretin

Link: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...66820/Re_1863_Sharps_Carbine#Post6366820

show some CLASS, and put THAT show back up,.....

Don't anybody hold their breath, waiting.

again,....this is a BPCR SITE,....[bleep] off, with your jivey white powder ranting.

[bleep] off and DIE

GTC

I have no idea what you are talking about. That makes 2 of us.

When you can get it to "Moose Stew with Greek Yogurt for dessert and a beer chaser" fart, let me know. That will be necessary for some old Sourdoughs I know.

Ed

Good Gawd, that sounds, er, smells, uh....OMG!

It is known as the "Nuclear Option" or an alternate WMD, depending on which end you are on, giving or receiving.

Now that we've hijacked the thread, I'll turn it back over to the OP...

I was intrigued by the thought of BP for these old cartridges and began doing some reading.
It seems that there was some thought by Winchester put into reloading the .32 Special with BP as that was a common event back then. There was mention of the .32 being more suited to reloading with BP than the .30WCF as the bore was large enough to withstand more fouling.(?!?)

I also found mention about Marlin's Microgroove rifling being found suitable for cast bullets. No mention of hardness, velocities, or other details.

Ed

You might want to read the last page of this thread. It talks about cleaning BH 209.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...6523035/7/recoil_of_smokeless_muzzleload

This is why I figure BlackHorn 209 would be the last black powder substitute I'd used for black powder. It sounds more like smokeless powder masquerading as black powder plus BlackHorn 209 is used to promote Montana Extreme products.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/general-cleaning/

BH is a detuned smokeless powder. It's the only BP sub that has to be cleaned with smokeless solvents. All the rest are can be cleaned with soap and water, or just water if you like.

I guess to be a BP sub all it needs to do is measure in volume the same as BP with similar power.

It's biggest advantage is no swabbing between shots with no loss in accuracy. You can take 100 shots with no swabbing, and the 100th shot will load as easily as the first. It's also very consistent, and collect no moisture.

Hardly what BP, or subs should do, but there it is.

That's kind of what I thought. Heck, if a guy is going to shoot the old timey calibers out of old timey firearms using a BP substitute than use a BP substitute not a watered down white powder substitute.

BH 209 is used mostly in modern inline muzzleloaders. It takes a 209 primer to fire it off.

....whatever the [bleep] THAT means.

I wish you guys would take this " BP Substitute" chit and [bleep] right off.

There ARE other Forums on this place for discussing these interminably STUPID inanities

BH209 is non-corrosive. All other subs (and blackpowder) are highly corrosive.

"I worship the quicksand he walks in."
- Art Buchwald

Just setting the record straight on subs.

I have the old Fart on ignore so I usually don't have any idea of what he said.

I figured you were just setting the record straight. I look at the so-called BP substitutes especially from Hodgdon as just another type of BP. Back in the day, there were dozens of different BP with different qualities. Everybody�s mileage will certainly very.

It's not like subs aren't used in BPCR. So, are we off topic?

APDDSN0864,

The rifling of .32 Specials is also 1-16", much slower than the .30-30's 1-12, which also helps when shooting black powder.

One of the reasons for making the .32 more BP friendly than the .30-30 is that a lot of people didn't want to fool with smokeless reloading in its early years, since some shooters blew up rifles due to not understanding the difference between BP and smokeless. Also, black powder was a LOT cheaper than smokeless for many years, unlike today.

Several years ago I loaded black powder in a Winchester Model 94 .32 Special made in 1952. I tried it both with 170-grain jacketed bullets and a cast SAECO 170 designed for the .32-40. The load was a full case of Goex FFF, and it shot pretty well, though to a very different point of impact than smokeless loads, due to a muzzle velocity of about 1400 fps. The first .32 Special 94's often had flip-up sights (either rear or front) to compensate for the difference in POI.

No if you read the NRA rules the only sub allowed is Pyrodex. I don't recall seeing anybody even near the highscores in any class using the stuff.
I'm also guessing you're not shooting the Colo state sillouette championships at Watkins today, and we probably won't see you on the roster for the Creedmoor at Byers tommorrow?

No you won't, but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The only LR shooting i've done is at CAS events.

I'm mostly a hunter, but have a lot of years with Swiss powder. My favorite BP.

Nothing done in CAS even comes close to long range, most of the "long range" targets shot in the single action squib society world are what those of us in bpcr shoot at from offhand position.
I'm still waiting for someone somewhere to use one of the "subs" to at least place in even the "gong" matches....
Might out to trot out to the CRC tommorrow morning and watch the boys go to work on the Creedmoor range. You could learn something...

One more point for your consideration, when you mentioned you've shot more blackpowder than Oops ever will.... For every 4 of your CAS rounds you might come up to the same amount as one of his beloved 45-100 rounds, of which I would hate to think about how many thousands of those he sent down range when he was fully involved with bpcr sillouettes and target rifle.....

I sense some condescending attitude here, and that's putting it lightly. Sort of reminds me of fly fisherman that use bamboo rods. I'm one of those without the attitude.

It's all shooting, and nobody is better than anybody else.

I'm not going to even bother addressing any of your points. I came on this sub forum to help. Not get talked down to.

Yes, and a [bleep]' idiot, to boot, apparently.

Don,....remember when "Big Jim" and I teamed up for that "Great Black Powder shoot Off" series of articles ? ( a few others here will too,.....)

Page after page of SD's, ES's, and all linked to charge weights ?
Swiss, Goex, Schuetzen, and elephant ?

HUNDREDs of pounds of powder got burnt, doing that, and literally TONS of lead were consumed / recovered.
Now some SASS type is beaking off about "Experience" based on weight?

"Mauser Hunter" can go pound sand where the [bleep]' Sun don't shine, ....and ALL of these azzwholes oughta take this "BP Substitute" chit elsewhere.

GTC

Please do not "Bother"

azzwhole

GTC

Minute of Volkswagon Bus accuracy requirements springs immediately to mind.

GTC

Where do these idiots come from?

36,490 posts, and not one of them worth reading.

You must be a teenager.

Before you sharpy.

I can say with pretty near absolute certainty that you will never see me near any of that because I don't compete in anything anymore. My primary concern is to find BP or a substitute that is safe and available to me where I live. If I can buy BP at a reasonable price where I live so be it, if not I�ll go with a Pyrodex substitute like RS or RS Select.

I feel the same way which is why I have him on ignore.

I came to this forum, because I had an interest in BPCR. I was going to start a thread about it, but I wanted to hang out a bit to see how things went.

They'll be happy to know i've lost interest after seeing the attitudes here. Way to represent your sport guys.

I don�t think it�s just BPCR, I think it�s that way with most shooting sports. BPCR seems worse because most BPCR forums are concerned with either serious competition or big game hunting. With big game hunting, what you use seems less important but with serious competition it�s as much about the rules as it is about the competition itself. Competition tends toward an elite class of shooters and the rules of the competition further that means to an end of the elite class of shooters. Don�t get me wrong here; rules of safety are necessary for safe operations anytime you get a bunch of people together with loaded firearms but most rules of competition are designed to create an elite class of shooters. Besides the old age issues, I don�t compete anymore because I hate rules and I do not find competition fun at all. I guess I�m too old and jaded.

And then you get upset because they want to talk about black powder. Go figure. miles

Just a quick reminder here bubba. You are the one that came in here blastin gas about subs. Then you proceed to tell someone who has probably fired more pounds of bp of all brands than you can imagine, a few years ago was before he dropped out of the bpcr circles was known as one of the top rifle builders, that he has no bp experience. Then you tell us you're experience is limited to CAS long range? And then proceed to tell us that you have no interest in attending 2 major bcpr matches within an hour of your hovel....
Now you tell us that subs are allowed in bpcr, but when confronted with the rules , you "sense a condescending attitue" ... well I wonder why that might be...

[quote=Mauser_HunterI came to this forum, because I had an interest in BPCR. I was going to start a thread about it, but I wanted to hang out a bit to see how things went.

They'll be happy to know i've lost interest after seeing the attitudes here. Way to represent your sport guys. [/quote]

Talk about switchin horse in the middle of the stream, up until this point you were holding yourself out as someone with much more experience than any one else.
Now you tell us you came here because you had an interest in it?

You shxthead, here you go again slapping someone down who he and his wife shot for Goex for years and years,,,,,,
You really ought to know who some of these folks are and what their experiences are before you jump on your highhorse....

Having relied mostly on the words of others to suggest my disdain for some of the skewed conversation here in the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle forum perhaps a novel change of pace is in order. (?)

An opinion: The forum title mostly describes the topic. There are ample alternatives for other discussion.

Another opinion: Anyone fearing BP, regardless of reason is simply misinformed and probably embracing myths put forth by Doctors of Urban Legend. It is an easy clean up, as safe as YOU are, and very reliable in performance.

Yet a third opinion: Moving into this topic thinking one can spread a load of pasture pie without correction or challenge is silly. Most of the steady contributors have forgotten more than I'll ever know about the art and science of BP and the guns that use it. They probably aren't going to be too concerned whether one suffers MPH syndrome as a result.

#4 opinion: Subs suck. I know too many that misunderstand the reason for their creation. Mostly it stems from shipping and storage regulations for retail distributors but there was the myth that they are easier to clean up and less corrosive than BP. Horsechitt. BH209 is the first I'm aware of that may have achieved that to some degree, but having pronounced a few inline barrels DOA when owners approached me for "a little help" with rotted barrels they forgot to clean "for a little while", the truth is easy enough to see. Lot of folks are not unlike lemmings; too damn lazy to measure the pool depth before jumping into the deep end. Never ends well.

Last opininon: Dude, I think your perception about "elite class of shooters" is far divorced from reality. I had occasion last year to attend the NRC shoot in Cody as a competitor. The many different matches shot all had equipment rules. You have a simple choice there, meet the requirements or don't shoot. I had the gear to shoot two of the matches, both using ML target guns. I found the small mob in attendance to be perfectly helpful gentlemen. They were ALL serious competitors and included the likes of Steve Garbe, Kenny Wasserberger, Mike Otterberg, Jack Odor among others.

Some of it looked like this:













[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Trip/IMG_0904.jpg[/img]

I'm not seeing "elite" here. This was the second organized shooting competition I've participated in with rifles in my life. Placed 3d against a dozen or so with the slug rifle at 200 yards and 2d in picket class using a gun and scope in the neighborhood of 130 years old. I am so flippin' far from elite I need binoculars to see it. There is so much I don't know about BP and casting bullets it is absurd, but I'm willing to listen to the wisdom of experience, even from some here that are as friendly as a saguaro cactus.

There wasn't a single kernel of substitute BP within 50 miles.

There is no sin in pursuit of excellence. To do less is to waste a small bit of your life, one little piece at a time.

"Do you speak BPCR?" - Dan (1949-)



"We have art to save ourselves from the truth."
- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)

PS: I have since picked up the tools to get me in the door for two other matches and have high hopes of doing that next year out in Cody.

.40-.38-55



.25-20 SS

First, who the hell stole my derby? Just kidding but that does look just like my one of my derbies.

Second, my apologies, as I might have spoken with my azz instead of my mouth. The only competition I have done has been bull�s-eye pistol 40 plus years ago. While everyone was nice if you didn�t have thousands of dollars� worth of pistols and equipment you weren�t competitive. Every year it seemed to get worse especially with all the rule changes. Even with the government picking up some of the tab it got to the point where I could not afford it. It seemed only the wealthy elite could afford to compete and us mere mortals, well, we weren�t supposed to be there. It left a sour taste in my mouth.

Third, I should have said nothing about BPCR especially about competition. I do belong to a couple of BPCR forums and it does seem that serious competition and big game hunting are the only purpose for BPCR. No one seems to discuss recreational shooting with BPCR. I�m a recreational shooter and while I know that BP is the powder of choice I can�t see what harm there is in using Hodgdon substitute powder as long as one follows the directions on its use. After all, Hodgdon has been making their substitute for a long time and I�m sure if it was not a reasonable good product the product would have died on the vine a long time ago. The above is why I thought that BPCR competitors were an elite lot.

And last but not lease, I�m sorry for putting my foot in my mouth but I�m wondering if a recreational shooter should belong to BPCR forums? I will have to think about this.

The guy in the derby is Jim. Hell of a nice fella and a lot of fun to shoot with.
bpcr is recreational shooting.

Yes they should!!! Whether a competitor or not, the fellas who have the most experience are fantastic when it comes to helping new BPCR riflemen find their legs. Whether to compete, hunt orjust plain have fun they are the coolest bunch to learn from one could imagine.

Well, going back to your first post, I thought it was a valid question, well answered for the most part. Somewhere along the way the thread took an excursion out to Mars it seems.

Ignoring all the hoopla on this, it boils down to a fairly simple analysis from where I sit. If you want to load small capacity CF cartridges with a sub, go right ahead. You're not going to see any benefit whatsoever. Pyrodex smells like burnt socks. Rest of them smell like Rosie O'Donnell. I don't see a functional difference between smokeless and BH209 but you'll have lower velocity. You can buy lever guns chambered for classic BP cartridges that are current production. Hunt with them, plink with them, or hold up the Overland Stagecoach if you want.

The .25-20 SS pictured above will serve two purposes for me. Competition and the killing of a bunch of hogs, one at a time. Both are recreation to me, but pork eats better than paper. It will be loaded with Swiss BP and cast bullets from an Ideal 257383 mould.

First off. I came to this thread defending BP. Not subs. The topic was shooting BP in a 30-30 lever gun. Something i've done a lot of. It was Swamp who was against it.

I don't want to read the whole thread again, but I don't think I brought up subs.

I also never said i had more experience than anybody in BPCR. I said i've probably shot more BP. You guys aren't the only ones who use it. Years of shooting CAS, and BP ML shoots, plus hunting burns some powder. I've been retired since 99, and have everyday to shoot. Being single, I don't need to answer to anybody, so I put all my time in my hobbies.

I'm well aware of the discipline it takes to be competitive in shooting competitions. I made a living in the 70's trap shooting.

I didn't start this damn thread, and I didn't keep it going either. Just because I set some things straight about subs, doesn't mean I promote it. Anybody that knows me in real life knows i'd rather shoot BP than anything else.

However, if you jump on me and insult me. I'm going to respond on the same level.

I'm not going to put you all in the same group, but you've got some real jerks on this forum who wouldn't last 30 seconds on a forum with mods.

I, for one, am perfectly fine with no moderators - telling me what I can read, or write.

OK, I haven't read all of your, and lame DD's post.

The two of you go get a room,.....

Do the 'Real jerks' on one another.

This AIN'T a "Forum with mods" you two bit poser, and lame azzed WHINY corksocker.

Blow me,....you filthy alligator freak !

I need moderation, and excess at one filthy stinkin' BP event.

Tell Garbe I said that,.....the dirty Meschershmidt crazed azzwhole.

Tell that Wyoming Cowboy to kiss my Az azz, too.

In a general sense,....[bleep] the whole rest and lot of ya'

Hold my beer,.....watch this,...

GTC

I needed that. LMAO!

Did I ever tell you about the time I ran over a crocodile down in the Keys? Yep, a 6 footer fell prey to my Honda Civic about Oh-Dark-Thirty on the way to work. Dang if that didn't make a lot of racket!

The press was aghast that a listed species had been ruthlessly slaughtered. I was aghast at the repair bill...fuggin' lizards.

Whatever kid.

A HONDA CIVIC!!!!!! HOLY CHIT!!!!! That would like hitting an elk!!!!

Now you know why I have him on ignore. I never want to get that grumpy as an old man. What a jerk.

Thank you, John!

The source I found with the most info on loading the .32 Special with BP on is the Feb 2007 edition of Handloader (#247) where Gil Sengal referenced an original Winchester catalog.
That catalog spoke to the .32 Special being more forgiving with BP and the article mentioned that Winchester offered load data and tools for loading the .32 Special with BP as most handloaders did not understand the difference between volume measuring and weight measuring and would attempt to volume load the new, relatively unknown, smokeless powders the same as with BP and subsequently damage the firearms and/or cause injury.

As to your experiment with the .32 Special and BP, was the report of the shot more of a "boom" than a "crack"?
Did using BP instead of smokeless change the amount (if any) of bullet fouling? Curiosity raises it's head once again.

Ed

Along the same lines ED, I see on different BP forums that people are weighting each load on a scale esecially if they have an electronic scale, yet the BP manuals say by volume only. What gives with that?

When you find a scale that reads out in volumes let me know I'ld like to purchase one.
Even back in 1878 the Sharps catalog stressed the importance of weighing charges and gave conversion tables to convert appothycaries to grains.
The great fake shxt pyrodex confused the dogcrap out of folks, as it was intended to be used on a volume for weight of grains of black powder. IE if you set a powder measure to weigh 70 grs of 2f blackpowder to make the switch to pyrodex you simply used the same measure setting. In the early days of pyrodex Hogdons did include charts to show what grains weight of blackpowder would weigh in pyrodex.
Pre lawyer days at the Lyman/Ideal corporation they made great effort to be sure and tell the owner of the Lyman 55 powder measure that the graduations on the slides was regulated for grains weight of blackpowder...
So in the interm there became alsort of gunwriter experts that didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground but got paid for writing articles plumb full of flat ass wrong info such as measuring bp by volume.....And everybody knows gunwriters are never wrong....

It sure is confusing.

Weight vs volume for BP isn't all that confusing. Find a volume load the gun runs with and weigh it. Do it a couple three or four times and note the variation in weight. At that point you have a reference point for weighed loads as one searches for the Holy Grail with that particular gun AND powder granulation AND brand. Different brands of BP have different levels of energy. As example, it is said that Swiss powder generates about 10% more energy per volume than say, Goex. I don't know that's true or not but guess it is more energetic to some degree than Goex. My guns think so anyway. A 60 grain charge of Swiss 1-1/2 FG by volume weighs in around the mid 60 grain range as I recall. 65 grains by volume puts you over the 70 weighed grain threshold.

Weighing is something that competitors shooting long range routinely do.

OTOH, BP converts only about half of it's volume to energy. That's where all the smoke and fouling come from. Since the relative energy production is low per volume, small variations in charge mass are not as critical as with smokeless powder because pressure variations are not so pronounced.

Don't let your gun smell like Rosie O'Donnell.

Dan if you pour 2f swiss into a little pile on a sheet of paper and then pour a pile of Goex 3f right beside it... You'll notice the two are almost identicle in powder kernel size, same with 1.5 swiss and Goex 2.... That's where all this stuff about swiss being more energetic came from, but when you start comparing equal sized powder the table gets leveled a tad...

So that's only necessary for competition. From what I've read using a volume measure is all one needs if competition isn't on the menu. For my needs I don't intend to weight each and every load. I don't care if the group isn't the tightest on record. Or am I missing something here.

Thanks Ranch. I don't have all the different grades and brands to compare, but what you say rings true. Use Swiss 1.5 in the big bore target iron and Goex 3f in the .45 flint....weighed and volume in that order.

Dude, the flintlock is for hunting mostly but will run about 2" or slightly larger 5 shot groups at 50 yds; offhand. 45 gr by volume works dandy with that application.

If you have a good measure and powder horn you can pour some extremely consitant powder charges. It sort of sets folks back when they weight what their volume measure pours out into a scale.

It took me a little bit to figure out that those European powders were sized "metric" Once I got to treating the 2f like goex 3f things came around pretty good, but I don't like that hard red clay crap fouling Swiss leaves behind. Dang stuff is way over priced and over rated. I like Schuetzen more than Swiss, but KIK has the whole dang bunch beat.

By your own declaration, you are too old, and it's too late to think about growing your own food.

"Grumpy old man" ?

Post a picture of yourself,...you mouthy dickhead.

Double dog DARE ya'

GTC

Marcus Antonius:

And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.

Julius Caesar Act 3, scene 1, 270�275

KIK, that's the one the Capital Sports has right now. I spelled the workd wrong. The big man at Capital Sports says he's been using that for some time and really likes it.

Well KIK is one I've not tried and when I work my way thru the supply of Swiss I'll give it a run. Never heard anything but good about KIK. The red fouling you refer to with Swiss is a puzzle to me. I've heard the complaint a number of times but have yet to experience such malfeasance. Might be the loads I run are fairly mild? Dunno about that. All my comparative experience is Swiss, Goex and Elephant from some time ago. Swiss wins the race for me in the target guns, hands down. I don't see anything particularly queer about Goex but it does foul a little more than Swiss.

On the consistency of volume charges, they can be consistent, I agree with that. A string of 60 gr.(vol.) charges I threw awhile back had a weight spread of about 1.7 grains for 10 charges. Probably that could be narrowed down a bit with practice, but the method works lacking other alternatives. It was good enough for 3d in the Polecat Porter match last year. I got beat by the Harsh Brothers and that ain't no sin. 20 shots, time rules, 200 yards w/ wind running about 8 o'clock @ a puffy 10-20 mph.

Dan the thing about the red hard fouling in Swiss, I think has to do with our dry climate here. Those that shoot the stuff in the more arid climates use a pretty agressive fouling control to keep the gun running. Those of you that seldom see humidity below 30% get along with the stuff just fine without special hoops to jump thru as far as fouling control.

Humidity is never in short supply down here.

That begs the question of using more lube to help soften the fouling or to help keep it soft. A softer lube in grease-groove bullets or a lube disc (cookie) under a paper-patched bullet perhaps?

I've been trying to pay attention...

This spring, we have no shortage of humidity in East Texas, so I don't think I'll have the issue of hard fouling.

Ed

That's interesting concerning humidity. In the months I'm likely to shoot, July, August, September it is usually bone dry in my area of Montana. Even with a lubed bullet, a grease cookie might not be a bad idea.

Tim,
From my meager knowledge of BP history, scales were never carried by the ordinary shooter when BP was the only thing they had to shoot. As DD and Ranch13 have noted, the long-range shooters weigh their charges to insure the greatest consistency, which is always the name of the game when shooting at long range and you have to hit what you aim at, either animal or paper.

BP lends itself to volume measuring due to it's inefficiency, but smokeless is quite sensitive to changes in charge amounts, so it must be weighed. Of course, there are exceptions, BH209 and Trail Boss being two that come to mind.

BP is an area I am just getting to know more intimately since Greg, E.T. have turned me to the "Dark Side", with Brent and Paul39, and now Ranch13, adding to my interest.

I've been shooting BP in my side-lock muzzleloaders for almost twenty years now and thought I knew something about it until I "found" BPCR.

The advice you've been given about weighing your volume-measured charges to get an idea of their actual weight is a good one that I intend to also follow.

I have been "stuck" using GOEX because that is all I could get locally. Now that even that source has dried up, I will be ordering online and am looking forward to trying KIK.

PM me or give me a call sometime and we can talk handloading, BP, or just the price of tea in China.

Ed

Use SPG lube in the .40 slug rifle, so maybe that's why I found no issues out in Cody. Or was in Black Magic? The Shadow knows...

Sounds good and I might take you up on it in the near future.

I have an electronic scale and I will check loads from time to time but I use the Lee dipper system and I don't intend to weight each and every charge of anything. Even if I used a hopper charging system I would only spot weight charges to make sure nothing has gone a rye. Heck, progressive loaders don�t weight every charge. Now if I was competing for big money and every shot had a dollar sign attached to it well that would be a different kettle of fish.

Good thing you didn't say the Green Lantern or you would have been in deep do do.

This thread should probably be allowed to die, but with respect to the OP's question and for the interest of the order I'll offer this, concerning annealing and blow back.

These .40-82 cases were fired in a match this weekend, and the pic taken within minutes of firing. Note all the nasty BP fouling on the cases - NOT! None back in the action either.

I'm not sure just what factors contribute to a good seal and how much. Like Cross mentioned, I anneal my Starline cases before initial sizing and these days after each firing. Many BPCR competitors do the same, and some claim that it makes a difference in accuracy as well as contributing to good case obturation and sealing. Chamber design and tolerances probably play a part too. However, Brent doesn't anneal his cases - ever, and he doesn't have any problems.

Point is, the fears of black powder fouling getting back in your action seem overblown, or somebody isn't doing things correctly.

Paul