What’s the consensus here?

I feel like if this was a real campfire and we had all thousands of us sitting around it... we would be having a (another) super big fistfight over this in like 20 minutes

It would be a fantastic sight to see

When the Nosler ballistic tips first came out, I killed to bulls with a 7 Mag with 140g ballistic tip, seemed like a magic bullet as both hit the ground immediately, one bull never kicked and the other kicked one hind leg twice. Hits were midways of the body length and height wise. Later on, I shot cows with a 243 and 100g partition.

Jud.. I have shot lots of elk with cup and core bullets.. But if I really want an elk, lately I have been shooting Accubonds and some old Partitions in 165 gr. .30 cal.. If I really an not meat hunting and wait for the broadside shot, cup and core will be fine...

I don't know about it being fantastic to watch but the old guys on this website can get worked up about anything. Best elk cartridge, premium bullets, best toaster, best arthritis treatment...friggin anything.

If premium means bullets that are shot into the chest cavity then yes.

What's the definition of a "premium" bullet? Does that change? As in what was premium in 1985 is likely no longer premium.

Remington Core Lokts and Peters C.E.'s worked like a champ forever, but then I got well off enough to buy gun magazines and found out they were inadequate.

Abso

Lutely

Neces

Sary

Ive never so much as bought an elk tag, but when I finally get to elk hunt there is no way I’ll go with anything but the most UBBER of the premiums.

Just had to represent “that guy”

Oh teal! Come on Barnes, nosler partition, accubond, swift a frame, sirocco etc

Needed.....No! But, in many cases preferable.! memtb

Hornady Interlocks are premium when compared to Winchester Power Points

Good question.

Nosler Ballistic Tip?

I wouldn't shoot an elk with anything less than a .460 Wby with a 550gr solid tungsten-carbide platinum-coated bullet.

I'm not trying to pick seriously...

It's premium results not necessarily premium price or construction because I see a Partition as not as 'advanced' in construction/design etc as a TTSX BUT they both offer premium results... Partition being around my whole life and they're the F150 to a TTSX or NAB's Raptor - if that makes sense.

Colostomy bags, crutches, tufts of white hair, and Hurry Canes a flyin'.

😂😂😂

I have killed elk with 220gr RN, Maxiballs, Power Belts,Game Kings and Partitions.I never noticed much difference if I shot them where I was supose to. I suppose if you are one that likes to shoot them stern to stem, shallow raking angles or thru shoulder bones,you might consider them. Tagging an elk never seem all that important to me to consider such shots

I've killed a bunch of elk with Speer Hotcores out of a 270. It knocked them down nicely.

Premium bullets are usually needed in the overbore magnums some guys think are required for elk. If a guy picks a mild, yet suitable cartridge and picks his shots with some basic common sense, just about any bullet of high enough sectional density will work.

Just curious I’ve used bt’s lotsa Hornady interlocks Berger’s partitions 4-5 different broadheads, 4-5 different musket bullets, Winchester power points, rem cor loks and some I’m sure I’m forgetting

Before this thread gets to far out of hand, Judman, put me down for NO.

🤭🤣🤣👍

So - hypothetical - I want to shoot a nice monster bull elk with my 7-08

250 yards and less

What bullet would you say "no" to (non-premium) and "yes" to (premium) in like weights?

Is it really possible to get a "bad" bullet these days?

No.

You just can’t help yourself can you? memtb

Yes and no! Many bullets are rather specialized. The bullet that may be great on whitetails may not be great on elk! Would the whitetail bullet kill the elk, yes.....within pretty narrow parameters! memtb

I don't mean a singularly bad bullet - I mean one that's poor by design. Pulling the next bullet out of the box isn't likely to change the outcome so to speak.

As I ponder this, sgk, and federal fusions. I’m sure there’s more. Grin

Who? This guy?

This Varmint Grenade bullet might not be great for elk: https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/varmint-grenade/

Haha 😂😂

"The bullet remains intact at ultra-high velocities in fast twist barrels, while its highly frangible core fragments violently on impact. Produces instant fragmentation, virtually vaporizing ground squirrels and prairie dogs ..."

Word on the street is this Ol boy has 2 147 elds via 6.5 cm, a few 50 cal musket boolits and been stuck a few times with a bow... local legend, hope someone kills him, got 3-4 years of trail cam pics of him.. amazing animal.

At TODAY'S prices...All Bullets Are Premium...and...uh...Matter!

Simply - NO.

Shot a full size cow elk this season using the the cup-n-core ELD-X. Next season I plan on using the Norma Bond Strike just because.

As I explained to my nephew, if you're on a big ticket elk hunt and it's the last hour of the last day and the rack of your dreams is about to go over the hill, what bullet do you want in the chamber?

Me? Partition.

In a magnum, yes.

In a sane cartridge, no.

Same Ol bull

My 7mm-08 is stoked with 139 LRX's but I'm stuck rolling lead free. If you dont mind lead the 140gr AB and 150GR BT is a great bullet

NO. The 180gr BT out of a 300 mag is my all time favorite elk and everything else bullet. Pure poison out of a magnum.

“Magnum” is just a word. Are you trying to say, instead of what you actually said, that, above a certain velocity, a certain type of bullet is needed?

A .243 Win will fire an 80gr bullet at 3,350 fps or more.

A .300 Win MAGNUM will fire a 200gr bullet at about 2,750 fps.

Are you saying that the 200gr .308 bullet going at 2,750 fps must be “premium,” but the .243 bullet moving at 3,350 fps need not be because it’s coming out of a “sane,” non-MAGNUM, cartridge?

If so, it's likely not very sound thinking.

My 6 ai shoots 80’s at 3650, super magnum!!! Haha

Laffin’, took about 20 minutes longer than I thought.

Looks like the winter doldrums have hit early this year...

😆

And I've already started drinking while my fiance is working out. Got the dry-aged prime rib on the grill at 170 F. Nothing could bring me down--even the disparagement of my fancy magnums.

Sounds like a good night pard. 👍

PS, if you actually (hunt), nothing here should get you down, it is worth a few laughs though!! 😂😂

Oh ya.... 😂😂

Teal, many people kill elk with thin jacket, fast expanding, high weight loss bullets every day of elk season.....they perform fine with “surgically” placed shots, and often with less than perfect placement. They often, due to the aforementioned definitions, fail to penetrate deeply, or may come apart on heavy bone failing to quickly dispatch the animal. In my opinion, unless the hunter is composed enough to pass on many less than ideal shots, the hunter is better served with a bullet of heavier jacket construction, preferably a bonded bullet or better yet a mono bullet.

If the hunter has limited time, or a great deal of money invested in an out of state hunt.....get a premium bullet that shoots good in your rifle! It’s simply good insurance! memtb

Super duper MAGNUM

Couple in the shoulder, 180 interloks, 300 (BEE) for fotis 😂, 35-40 yards. 3300 FPS,

It all depends on where you aim. I wouldn't want to hit shoulder with a Berger in a 243 but would have no hesitation to poke one in the heart or lungs.

No. Consistently took bucks and bulls with Sierra Match Kings from a 7 Mag until folks told me I shouldn't do that. Game never complained though. A coworker knocks a bull down almost every year with a round ball from his .54 muzzle loader. So, location, location, location.

The difference in the cost of most bullets today is not all that great in my mind. Swifts can cost $1 each, standard cup/core about $0.35 each. In theory, the Swift is 3x as much - but given a reasonably accurate rifle/scope combo, a decent load can be found with 100 bullets. So the total cost ranges from ~ $45 for cup/core (including primer/powder) to $115 for Swift. In my mind, that isn't a deciding factor. I spend $600 to $1300 (my favorite - WY "Special" NR elk tag) on my elk tag every year. I'm in my $300 boots, using my NF scoped Kimber Montana, hauling my $900 Kifaru pack. And that doesn't count the other "necessities" in the pack.

The deciding factor for me is the purpose of the bullet in relation to the animal, ranges I'm hunting, and bullet launcher. For elk, I've used everything from a Sierra Game King to the Nosler Partition. When I'm shooting a bullet launcher that launches them 3000 ft/sec and expect elk to show up at 50 yards, I'll default to a bullet that stays together. When I'm dragging my 308, some standard cup/core work just as well.

Short answer: No they aren't required.

Caveat: bullets are the cheapest part of the equation, why pick a bullet based on price? I'll pick them based on intended purpose.

Nice bull.

If you’d been shooting a .308 Win. it would have only taken one.....

Copy that, I got $1000 worth of points in Wyoming and the tag is gonna be another $1200 before the hunt even starts. 😅

That’s for sure.

I’ll say they aren’t required if you match them to the cartridge launcher.

Jud- You know they are REQUIRED! All the hunting shows and Instagram flat bill stars say so. 🤣🤣
Also one persons premium is another’s junk!
I’d say whatever shoots most accurately in a persons rifle is what I’d roll with.

Yep, I know Berger’s kill the shiit outta bulls, lotta folks here think they’re a varmint bullets. Just wondering what the general consensus was after the the “best elk cartridge “ thread.

One could argue the interlock is a more consistent performer. I shot this cow at 340 yards with a 338 win mag and 225 TSX’s. One passed through one suck under the hide on the off side both hit the shoulder.

Hell no...

Ha, all I know is it’s fun hunting them big bastards and I’d imagine we will be old men still going over this. I do like seeing others experiences though.

Never used a Berger on fur yet. I’m working up to it slowly

I have a friend who used to hunt elk with his .308 model 100.. His standard shooting was three or four times in the chest.. He didn't want a bigger gun because it ruined too much meat.. Logical.. All the pros I have talked to said use the biggest you can shoot accurately!!!

I know brother man🤫😅

That actually really surprises me Scotty. Why not??

Nice grocery trip bud. 👍

. memtb



They’re great for coyotes.....but, you can’t sell the fur!

^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yep, I agree. One thing that I'd add is if you aren't using a "premium", use heavy for caliber c&c bullets. I've never had an issue going this route.

I have used various cup and core bullet as well as "premium" bullets. If I were to give an overview it would be simply this:
The smaller and/or less powerful the round the more help a Premium bullet can be. My definition of "premium" is about weight retention not just accuracy. Accuracy is never a bad thing, but for elk I rank accuracy as less important then good terminal performance (expansion with good weight retention)

But any bullet that can break bone and hold together is ok for elk. I have seen many and used some myself that were not so good but others were excellent.

Cup and core bullets I have killed them with:

150 grain Remington RN 270s (excellent)
150 grain Speer Hot Core 7MM (very poor)
175 grain 7MM, Hornady. (very good)
150 and 180 grain 30 cal Winchester Power Points from a 300 Savage, 308s and 30-06 (good and very good)
220 grain RN Hornadys (Very good)
220 grain Sierra RN. (very good or excellent))
225 grain Hornady Spire Point 338s, (Poor for elk. Complete break ups)
170 grain 8MM Hornady SSTs, (poor for elk.)
200 grian Flat Nose 348 on a moose, not an elk, but it held together and did well. One kill only, so not a real good test, but I'll add it anyway.
270 grain Hornady Spire point 375s ( comes apart some, but gave me exist despite the metal flakes in the wound)
270 grain Hornady RN 375s, (very good)
270 grain Winchester Power Points (Excellent. In fact about the best 375 I ever used, and equal to the Premiums)
Winchester 300 grain Sliver Tip 375s (some metal frags in the wounds, but give exits, so I can't complain)
300 grain Sierra BT. (Gave exits but I found the cores inside the ribs, one elk and one moose. Same on both kills. So this one could be called both poor and good. Poor because it came apart but good because about any 300 grain bullet from a 375H&H is deadly just owning to it's size and weight)
416 400 grain Hornady SP. (Works well but didn't seem to expand much. Smaller exit then I expected, but it killed the bull fine)

In addition to those above I have killed elk with the following "premium" bullets.
270s 150 and 160 Grain Nosler Partitions (Excellent)
7MM 160 and 175 Gr Nosler Partitions (Excellent)
7MM 150 grain Barnes X (Excellent)
30 caliber 165, 180 and 200 grain Nosler Partitions. (Excellent)
30 cal Barnes GMX 165 (Excellent)
180 grain Speer 30 cal Grand Slam. (Gave exists but some fragments in the wounds)
8MM 200 grain Nosler Partition. (Excellent)
338 210 grain and 250 grain Nosler Partitions (Very good and Excellent)
285 grain Speer Grand Slam 375. Did ok, but on elk it's basically like a solid giving me exits of about nickel size)
375 300 grain Nosler Partition. (Excellent)

In every case, the above listed "premium" bullets did all I could ask of them. I can't say they did a lot better then some of the best cup and cores, but never did I have a single failure.

Then there are those killed with cast bullets from four 44 magnum handguns, a 454 Casull, and also two 45-70 rifles and round balls from both 58 cal and 62 cal muzzleloaders. All my cast bullets and balls did the job perfectly.



By far the most information I have gathered from over 50+ years of elk hunts is from guiding, packing and butchering elk other then those I killed myself . In the last 1/2 century I have not only killed my own elk, but also helped in various capacities with a LOT more dead elk then I have personally killed. If I were to make a realistic guess I would say my number is around 90, and the ones that I have helped with are probably 6-7 times that many. I have seen them killed with guns from 243s to 50BMG. With handguns from 41 mag to 500 S&W and also with about 25 different arrows and broadheads.
So if I am asked if you "need a premium bullet" in many cases I say NO!.
But in all cases I would also say it won't hurt you to use one either.

OMG, the prime rib was awesome, but my fiance just basically passed out from too much wine already. We were watching the 1980s version of the Bourne Identity. She told me to wake her before midnight. So, I'm back to this thread for a bit.

I was a proud Elk hunter using mostly 150 gr. Speer Hotcors out of my 270 with good success and used the same weight Hotcor in my 30-06 on several Elk before deciding to switch to the 180 gr Hotcor. Shortly after I started using Nosler Partitions in both rifles. Did the Partitions kill any better? Well no but they did penetrate better.

Some of the best elk hunters I know, and I know a couple, Ol gristles, wearing cotton and wool still, straight pile up bulls with 30/06’s, 300 savages, 308’s etc, factory fodder, hang a picnic plate @ 100 and go make meat.... oh how times are changing.... ...😅

In the early 70s I killed a few elk with a 270 win and Remington core lots. I didn't even know what a premium bullet was. Since 96' I've used partitions. For me, partitions are "needed". Others will undoubtedly feel differently.

Partitions are great bullets and have been the gold standard since 1945. I've killed many elk with them and they always work great. I've also killed elk with heavy for caliber sierra gamekings (.338 250gr) and 225gr Hornady interlocks. The one premium I'd love to try is the 175gr LRX in my 300wby. No luck this year, maybe next year. I'm thinking that LRX singing along at 3,250 fps would be ideal..`

Who here doesn’t like premium bullets for elk?

Is an 80 grain ballistic Tip considered premium?

How's it work?

Shhhhh!🤫

To chime in here, to me a premium bullet is a bonded bullet.
Are they necessary for Elk...NO.
The best performing FACTORY bullet I have ever used is the Remington Core Lokt. Cannot fault it from any angle in many calibres. The price of them is very reasonable and that is how I got brass to start loading for myself way back in 1988.
I used them exclusively when I had my first 300WM & 300 Bee, both with the 180gr. I also used them in my 338WM and my Dad’s 35 Whelen. Never had a failure. I shot a large Sambar stag, had a rack on him of 28”x29”, while caping out the brisket, there were 3 nicely mushroomed semi intact Nosler BT’s in there. They must have been shot a fair distance away from a slow gun, cuz they barely went 6”.
The wound had fully healed and had also calloused up from when he was bedding down.
That’s the only time I have recovered fired bullets, but have found arrows on 4 different occasions. Even a branch embedded in a Hinds eye.
Personally, I use premium bullets, but I also shoot long range without premium bullets cuz they expand easier.

Cheers.

This made me laugh! :0)

Me too, it would be a blood bath!!! Haha 😂

If I draw afognak will use my model 70 in a 300 weatherby with 180gr hornady spire points.

Dang Jud, nice bull! Congrats!

👍 hour after that pic was takin, you couldn’t see 10’. Most miserable day of my life, and 3 pards. My Ol man packed our packs and rifle out and waited at the trailhead for us. Killed him 15 minutes after daylight, got to the old man hour after dark.. what a day. I owe the ol sumbitch one...

Here’s the bull the pard and I killed the year before in Whitney creek. Bout a mile from where I killed mine, but on the right side of the canyon!! Haha way nicer weather too!! 270 (BEE), oooops I said it again!! Haha 130 Hornadys interloks, leupold glass.

Put a bullet in the right spot and type, style, etc don’t mean $hit!!!! Happy new year’s to my elk killing brother’s!

Hell ya!! It’s coming!! Wont top my Rosie I killed this year, but I’ll be trying to top my rocky. 👍

That Mountain Home park area? What range that toad shot at?

Both Dayton, mine over on the newby mtn side, directly across from greenfly, his on the greenfly side in Whitney creek. Sheps was 300ish, dead run through timber, shoulder shot... lotsa whiskey drank after both those... grin

Bullets I’ve used range from monos to target bullets.

Meh, doesn’t matter. learn how to kill [bleep] and it’ll work out fine.

A rock or spear will kill one, but I favor Nosler Accubonds and Partitions, as do my partners. Use the best you can afford the others are for practice and jugs of water.

Those were great bulls. Man, I love seeing them whoppers.

I used the 212 ELD this year in my 06. Worked like a champ. Typically I’m a Bitterroot, Partition, Accubond or Scirocco guy for elk though.

The Scenars are kinda the sleeper in the bullet arena. I used the 139 from a 6.5C and the 220 Scenar from my RUM on some deer. Worked like a champ. Didn’t find an elk with the RUM the year I used it.

Premium “ping pong ball”

Nice bull,SLM.

Happy New Year Elks’, hope all is well.

Speaking of masochists that like magnums! 😀

Only for rabbits,SLM.

This ^^

I like this answer, so I'll add to it. Find a bullet that gives you the best accuracy out of your rifle and confidence to place your shot.

It might be a "premium" or it might not.

According to Lewis & Clark's records, during the winter the crew spent at Ft Clatsop, they killed 128 elk, all with flinters. No premiums there. They were trying to dry enough meat for the return trip but it was so wet that they couldn't dry it. Most of it spoiled.
On the return trip, Lewis was shot in the butt by one of the other men who mistook him for an elk in heavy timber. That wasn't a premium, either. Luckily, Lewis wasn't badly hurt but he did spend a couple weeks lying on his belly in a canoe.

Checking back to see if any of those “many” elk were posted yet.

The 175LRX works well at 3350fps out of a 300 ultra. Also does so at 3000 out of a wsm.

I was thinking the same thing!! Haha

This about sums up my thoughts on any bullet/cartridge thread....

No, but it's not like spending money on premium bullets means I can't go elk hunting, so why not?

The question of whether premium bullets are “needed” for elk depends on the circumstances. Most bullets will work most of the time.

That said, I prefer premiums that expand but won’t come apart if hitting bone, whether at spitting distance or my limit of 600 yards.

The smaller the bullet and/or the faster it goes, the more I want a premium bullet.

Yes, they are.
I see too many people judge results on broadside rib shots or moderately quartering away. Miss by a bit and hit bone, or the only shot available and hit bone, or heavily quartering, changes things a lot. Even an elk's stomach full of feed is a formidable obstacle. Even a straight on chest shot is quickly into the vitals without much of an obstacle.

I seen enough well regarded bullets (including well regarded here on the 'fire) hit bone and essentially go "splat", and not penetrate past the first lung. About five years ago, I helped in a 5 hour search of a bull shot with a 180g NBT that hit the shoulder and never made it past the first lung. A one lunged, three legged elk can travel a ways making the recovery dicey, especially if it's in deep timber.

The real test of an elk bullet is up close and on bone. Too many people ponder bullet performance at 400 yds, and spend waaaay too much time agonizing over BC.

Moderate expansion, deep penetration, that's the "trick"........

One gunwriter on here said "Shoot them in the front half". Sage advice. Although sometimes the bullet has to start in a less than optimum spot to reach the front half. That's where the premiums come in.........

And that seems to be the point at which people fail to recognize that they are making a mistake. "Shoot them in the front half" means "shoot them in the front half", not shoot them in the ass, but with a cannon that will also damage the front half.

So, if you had a rifle that didn't shoot your choice of premiums very accurately, but stacked a good garden variety bullet into the bullseye, which would you hunt with?

It really depends on where and how you hunt, as well as on the cartridge you hunt with. Hunting prairie elk requires different bullet considerations than hunting elk in the dark timber. I've hunted elk where the bullet is more likely to "fail" due to getting pushed around by the wind too much or impacting too slow to expand, and I've also hunted elk where the bullet is more likely to fail by not penetrating deep enough on up-close, angling shots including bone. A .45-70 penetrates just fine up close without relying on premium bullets, but I'm in TTSX or LRX mode if carrying a .243" rifle elk or moose hunting.

Actually I have indeed intentionally shot the heaviest bull I've ever killed (well north of 700lbs) with a Texas heart shot. The well beat up Partition ended up just short of the sternum. He traveled about 60yds and was dead by the time I worked my way down the side of the canyon. With a 150g NPT from a 270. Shooting them between the hammies doesn't ruin much meat a'tall and ruins a LOT less meat than shooting them in the shoulder. I grew up where wasting meat with a shoulder shot was a sin. If I have a 360 B&C bull going dead away from me I'll take the shot--my elk loads are up to the task.

There is also the scenario where a wounded critter is still on his feet--regardless if he's mortally wounded and the shooter nor the critter doesn't know it--or if it wasn't a good shot, and the animal is going dead away. Under those circumstances it is more ethical to take the Portuguese Brain Shot rather than wait and the likelihood of not having that perfect opportunity of another broadside shot. For me there is nothing worse than losing a wounded critter.

Also, when heavily quartering away, a shot even a few inches too far back can encounter the stomach, and as mentioned before an elk stomach full of feed can stop a bullet--I've seen it happen several times. My then 17 year old son did just that, the bullet actually skinned the very front of the hind quarter, entering well back of the last rib, through a portion of the stomach, and ended up against the off side shoulder. The 100g NPT out of a 243 traversed through the front half.

I have seen killed and killed a LOT more elk at angles than I have with perfect broadside shots. Elk have a tendency not to cooperate in that fashion.

Moderate expansion, deep penetration, and make sure the bullet traverses the front half, that's the "trick".

Again, you seem to have utterly missed the point of the advice to, "Shoot them in the front half."

Smoke,
I would take the 1 1/2" group premium over the 1/2" group target bullet masquerading as a hunting bullet in a heartbeat. Make that a 2" group for the premiums. There is the fact we have more confidence in a very accurate load. I've struggled with that very choice in the past.

Couple things; Elk are creatures of the timber wherever they naturally occur in the world. I had friend who was a "project" biologist who had studied Siberian tigers in southern Russia for 5 years, and in the course of that study also looked at elk that were tiger prey. He even mentioned that when pressured by human hunting or by tigers elk would retreat to dense timber. Even the Manitoban elk referred to as "plains" elk were historically found not far from the heavily wooded river valleys of the plains, and occurred in the highest densities in the forests of what is now Arkansas, eastern Missouri, up through Minnesota and into Manitoba. Further west those densities declined.

I worked on a elk disturbance study 20 years ago. The telemetry collared cows we "disturbed" were used on a previous study that looked at elk migration patterns with an emphasis on the falll in the southern portion of the White River NF, including the Flat Tops Wilderness. The grad student conducting the study showed me the migration and dispersion of elk beginning with archery, then blackpowder, then each rifle season. The overwhelming majority of elk headed pell mell onto private land and the public land hellhole breaks along the Colorado River.

Yes there are places where a guy can set up shop with his long range rig and have a good chance of killing an elk, but they aren't all that common, and even less common on public land outside of very limited hunting units, and even then the elk get the idea within a day or two of being shot at. I've hunted and killed elk in most of the Rocky Mountain states, the dry side of Oregon, and BC. Wherever I go, whatever I have been told or read, elk are creatures of the timber. That two inch group doesn't mean much at less than 300 yds, and the big majority of elk are encountered at those ranges.

One of these days I'll figure out how to post pics of the "Wall Of Shame" on the gable end of our shop of dead, UNRECOVERED elk found in GMU 61 and 62, all of them within a 30-40 minute hike of our high country place. Many of them were fresh enough to see the bullet entrance and most were shot in the front half. Two of them were fresh enough I've done "bullet necropsies" on. In both cases the bullet went "splat". I have a friend who in the past 3 years has found a 340 and 365 B&C gross unrecovered bulls in GMU61.

No, you missed my point. Whether I arrive in the kitchen through the front door, the back door, or the side door, I still get to eat.........

Many hunters reach an age and a point in their hunting career when taking any available shot to put an elk on the ground isn't a must do thing, including myself. At times, putting the safety back on seems a prudent thing to do.The older I get the fussier I get as to what shots I take.Probably muzzle loader hunting pushed me in that direction, although now days I guess there are even premium bullets for muzzle loaders. The 220 gr round nose C&C moving slow but steady killed a lot of elk, but I also used 180 gr partitions if not in the dark timber.

I agree with Coyote Hunter. The faster you push a bullet ,the more need for a premium bullet. This seemed to be a hard lesson to learn for the folks that started using magum velocities cartridges and C&C bullets,then promptly cried bullet failure. Kiling elk isn't all that hard.

As you can tell from these pics, you don’t want em goin to far after the shot. Miles of what you see behind em..
uncharted 3 desktop wallpaper

Jud,
That thick of a forest exists in Colorado--and Utah-- also. Different vegetation but same effect. And that's where I shot both of my bulls. I go where the elk are, not where the internet tries to dictate.

Cool photos. I've got to watch Roosies in Washington and BC in the past. One of my goals is to bag a Roosevelt. I'd love to get one that has the classic "crowning".

Well, I probably would too but that wasn't the question. 1 1/2 inches is plenty accurate for most shots on elk. Just trying to get at what's more important, ability to place the shot where you want it, or premium bullets.

Personally I don't need a bullet that will plow through two feet of elk to reach the vitals because I'm not taking that shot.

I’m continually baffled by guys that have killed a lot of elk but continue to preach about “dark timber” and the shot that’d get away because of a bullet.

Ever seen a Texas heart shot bull with a Berger? It’ll require a finisher, but you won’t need to do any tracking.

Let me guess, Next up will be target bullets cause too much meat damage on ass shots.

I've taken that shot but not on an elk. It was a Dall ram, my only chance for a shot as it was about to to disappear over a rise, on the last evening I could shoot one. Which was day 9 of a twelve day trip because it was a three-day "hike" out if we were packing a sheep and our gear.

Which is a long way of saying, anyone who wants to give me grief for taking that shot, save the keyboard strokes, I wasn't gonna pass up a my only chance for a shot.

It was 280 yards, the rifle was a .260 Remington, and the bullet was a 123 grain Scenar. Hit the ram in the hip, broke that and the femur and the ram dropped like a rock.

And yep, it did damage some meat but the little "target bullet" performed as well as I could've hoped.

Yep Roosevelt’s are badass, I’ve killed lots of em, got my “crown “ bull couple years ago. Another musket bull.

Casey,

Not sure if I'm reading you right but GMU61 is full of long range shooting opportunities on the late hunt. Truman from Delta killed over 18 bulls last count in GMU62 with his 700ADL 06 out to 400yds iirc.

I don’t think anywhere has the type of vegetation, sheer amount of thick shiit we got with the exception of SE Alaska

Question: were any elk killed before the arrival of premium bullets?

No.

That’s back when everyone pissed any moaned about Schidt Bullets and poor performance so other Bullets were built to piss and moan about their price. It’s a snake eating it’s tail

^^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^[[


Plus, if you kill the first elk you shoot......the hunts over. With standard bullets......ya get to shoot more elk! memtb

MtnHtr,

That 700lb + bull I mentioned? It was GMU61, third season, 1990, and about 15 years later lasered at 480 yds. No rangefinder, no ballistic reticle, no dialing. But I practiced out to 500 yds. That's the exception though, not the rule. I've killed three elk starting from that same spot in GMU61. The other two ended up less than 100 yds.

And I was going to bring this up. There are a LOT of places where I can glass elk, but they are 1000yds, or miles away, or somewhere in-between. By the time a guy makes his way over there and gets to see the elk again they are up close. In the canyon I shot that bull, the other side is so far away my rangefinder won't range it from rim to rim--not my KILO 2000, not my new Leica 2800.

The late seasons on the Plateau are more likely to encounter longish shots because the elk are more likely down in the oakbrush and PJ, but they are also more likely to be on private land. But with the dry, warm falls the past 20 years more times than not they have not been down as low most years (last two falls being an exception).

I wish I could think of the guy's name, but he was out of Delta and in the 80's and 90's when the 4th season was an OTC tag he killed some impressive bulls in GMU 62 west of Delta off the Delta-Nucla Rd. He worked with a friend of mine at the Meadow Gold processing plant.

In the 49 years I've been hunting elk, I've killed two elk 400 yds or more, two elk 300 yds or more. I've killed roughly 25 elk at less than a 100 yds, the rest somewhere in-between. The funny thing is since I started carrying a rangefinder 10+ years ago the only time I've ever used it was pronghorn hunting, and that's only when a rangefinder will reliably laser nonreflective fuzzy brown antelope on fuzzy brown prairie hillsides--which isn't all that often. But the veracity of rangefinders in long range shooting is a whole 'nother subject.

lol....... I think there's a lot of guys who unintentionally subscribe to that school of thought!

Yes they were, and I’d guess there’s more killed every year with standard C&C bullets than premiums today.

Yes.
I've killed plenty of elk back in the day with factory Core-Lokts and Sierras. The advantage to premium bullets are a guy uses less bullets to achieve the same result. In the end the cost per bullet probably evens out between the two........

That also applies to a lot of guys who take 400+ yard shots.

This is where the conversation gets sideways I think.

We have elk country that getting a 50 yard shot is going to be difficult, and we have elk country that is fairly open to wide open and everything in between. What one uses in one area, might not be what one would pick as ideal for the other. I would assume most every state is the same, and people base their opinions on what they see the most. You put me in the jungles of the PNW and I’d be lost for a while on how to kill an elk.

We’ve killed elk with the .243 pretty handily, but not sure I’d use it in the conditions you see up there, conversely, I’d see the .338 a bit much to put up with in the areas we’ve used the .243.

One thing I have noticed is, everyone’s elk spot is thicker, deeper, farther and steeper than the next guys.

Obviously none of this is directed at you, or anyone really.

Yes there is a lot more. The question is do they find the dead elk before I find it a few days or few years later.

My 90 year old dad killed his first elk in 1956 and he still hunts and kills elk today. He has always carried a 30-06 and to my knowledge has always used 180g factory Core-Lokts RN. Starting about 50 years ago he began shooting elk in the neck because they fell down on the spot. Why did he start shooting elk in the neck?--Because he got tired of chasing them and shooting at 'em multiple times. Relying on shooting an elk in the neck every time is not something I would recommend, but nor am I gonna argue with a 90 year old man......

Our experiences are quit a bit different it seems. Have been around quit a few elk kills and have not seen the loss you’ve seen, definitely not saying there is not loss, but not to the extremes you’re implying. Try to spend a lot of time in elk country during the winters and am not seeing the numbers of dead heads you’re seeing either.

Is a 155 Lapua Scenar from a puny little .308 considered a "premium"?

The elk keep tipping over.

Case,

You're pretty much spot on with my experience there. 30/06 150gr GMX, CNS at 308yds off the shooting stix. Saw alot of bulls btw, this was second best I saw.



I'll add I ran into one the Weimer ranch hands afterwards in town and he said they had a tough time filling tags.

SLM,
I have a pair of 243's that have accounted for 14 elk, all of them with 100g NPt's. That combo kills elk as readily as any other cartridge I've seen, although I would think twice about a Portuguese Brain Shot.

And yes, a guy can find elk out in the open but as I wrote previously, elk will head to refuge once they have been pressured. Most hunters today are not prepared to hunt elk up close. The internet doesn't preach it, and equipment seems to dictate something different.

When I first started guiding one outfitter I worked for drew a lot of hunters out of the upper midwest. Those guys were mostly older than me and knew how to still hunt in the timber. As JB mentioned in one of his GG books, as whitetail populations exploded hunters learned to take a stand and let the deer come to them. By the 90's nobody I guided was prepared--mentally or with their equipment--to jump shoot an elk coming or going to the spot where we were going to "hunt". A lot of clients missed a lot of opportunities at elk.

And I don't mean to suggest unrecovered elk are laying everywhere I look. My parents live in GMU 61 from May thru Oct/Nov at 9k ft. Our property is adjacent to NF on two sides. I spend a LOT of time up there hiking and messing around, and that is why I find a lot of dead elk. My buddy who found the 365 bull mentioned previously also has a place up there and he spends a lot of time up there too. I don't find dead elk on the winter range, I usually find the elk in the fall when they have been dead a short time. Indeed, I killed my bear sitting over a unrecovered archery bull a 30 minute walk from the back door of our cabin on Oct 5th. I figured the bull had been dead around 2 weeks when I found him. Could've been a blackpowder kill though.

Now you’ve done it!

Daughter is a fan of the 155 Scenar. I consider it a stunt shooters bullet. I only shoot premiums, like my favorite 6.5 140 Berger VLD.

Cool!!!! Good on you! Nice bull!

I'm close to drawing a 61 tag. Having this raging debate with myself between the 2nd, 3rd or 4th season...........

Well yeah, but two elk over 400 yds out of 46 elk ain't bad. Some days a guy's stealth ain't as strong as other days...........

Another reason I still generally shoot Partitions is when I can have them delivered to my door at half the street price, it makes practicing all summer long more affordable, especially with a college age son who I also happily support his hunting habit............

Having said that, my new 308 is going to be started out with 150g TTSX's for it's elk load. I shall see how this combo works.

Fuqk it, just for conversation and entertainment I say "yes", they're needed for elk.

GO!

Boned or monolithic ?

I’ve been waiting for you brother Ted!!! Haha

You’ve killed lotsa elk, what’s your baby??

What did you run on afognak?

I hate monos....

That Afognak bull died via .308" 200 grain old style Speer grand slam. My absolutely favorite bullet of all time. Pretty much an A frame from what I understand. My stash is getting thin though.

Everything I see gets boned, if possible.
Monos? Meh......

Magnum?🤣

Haha you fuuckin slut!!! 😂

Good 'ol .30 Super.

I have about 50 of them left and saved them for my Yukon mountain griz/mountain caribou hunt that got rolled to next year due to COVID.

I want to cry.....

Screw you guys monos work fine. I’ve killed a few trees in the uintas with grand slams. Flying ash trays, BC of a Buick. 😉

Really though, doesn’t matter just hit the damn things in the kill spot and they die.

I like shooting my stash of 30 supers in my 300 weatherby, improves the hell out of them. Grin

Don’t make it awkward

Awkward situations are all I am good at making.

Especially if brewskis are involved.

Fück partitions!

Here here!

Terminal ballistic research on the internet has a kiwi that must shoot a bazillion ungulates a week weighing over 300 kilograms.

He goes on and on about this subject.

There was a pretty cool thread on the campfire years ago about point blank shots into a bovine leg bone knuckle joint.

The author used a 30/06

Seemed the 200 grain Speer was very disappointing, but the 130 grain Barnes did very well considering.

I think the advice here has been good, bottom line:

Monolithics need velocity to preform. I think 1800 fps?

Cup and cores need sectional density....( mass) for penetration about .250?

Premium bonded ,A frame types need a little of both.

Frangebile bullets may begin to fall short due to the size of elk compared to smaller animals.

My favorite way to hunt elk in in fresh snow, tracking them. I can spend a lot of time disengaged from regular life trying to piece together what them buggers have been up to. So I usually use a Lever action. I got a small cow at 30 yards with a 336 marlin ER 356 cal 220 grain Speer hot cor this year.....damn near could eat to the hole. I think ( as in I know) using a .308, 300 sav, or a 30/06 with lighter bullets would have caused much more tissue damage.


But it's all good 😊........no fight here!

Nothing like 100 answers from a group of people that only 10% have actually killed one elk, let alone a dozen or more.

Did premium bullets exist before 1901?

Were elk killed with bullets before 1901?

PS: I have never killed an elk, but it doesn't mean you can't answer the question.

Depends on what you mean by "very accurately", "premium" and "good".

My rifles seem to be more sensitive to bullet weight than type. In particular I have a 30-06 that won't shoot 150g bullets well but loves 168g. And standard twist rates prohibit my using the heaviest bullets for caliber in various rifles. My 7mm RM doesn't seem to like 120g bullets but loves 140g to 162g.

When loading premiums for hunting, I try to find an inexpensive cup-and-core load that closely mirrors the ballistics of the premiums and use the cheap loads for most of my range work, switching back to the premiums for the last range session or two. I have yet to find a rifle where this does not work or where accuracy of one type is significantly different.

I did have one 30-06. an early Ruger American, that would not shoot any factory loads with suitable accuracy. Never fired a handload in it, but the 7-8 factory loads I tried, standard and premium, all shot about 2-1/2" groups at 100. It got traded as it wasn't acceptable for range work, let alone hunting..

The "premiums" I use in my hunting rifles include Barnes TTSX and LRX, Nosler AB and ABLR, Swift Scirocco II and A-Frame and my remaining North Fork SS, HP and FP bullets. While these have proven to be very accurate in my rifles, I would gladly use them even if it meant giving up a little accuracy compared to "garden variety" bullets.

Your question begs the question "At what range?" Many people hunt where 200 yards is an extraordinarily long shot. A 2MOA rifle is fine for that but I wouldn't take such a rifle hunting where shot opportunities could be well beyond that.

The type of game also matters. I've taken antelope with 95g SST, 100g TTSX, 110g AB, 130g Scirocco-II, 140g AB and North Fork HP, 160g XLC and 220g InterLock FP. The only one that did not work well was the 160g Barnes XLC, which was the first animal I took with that bullet and the last time I used it for hunting. When taking my 338WM elk hunting it gets loaded with 225g AB but I'd gladly use my 225g SST practice loads if I could not find AB to load.

If by "good" you mean thin-skinned bullets like the ELD-X, ELD-M or similar, I might use them on antelope or small deer but they would be far down the list my choices for larger game. Give me a BT, SST. InterLock, or similar instead. Or a premium that shoots "accurately enough" even if not "very accurately".

Coyote Hunter, You could not have said it any better for me, my experiences and feelings are very close to yours. I have sent a lot of Nosler Partitions downrange which has limited some of my experimentation, only because they did the job for me everytime. I have not fired a single factory round in decades and for the most part using powders that have been on the market for years and years. I even have used Speer flat base 180's for practice instead of the Partition, in order to save a few bucks. Finite accuracy is only necessary when you get past a few football fields, and most should not be shooting that far anyway.

If you had a magnum, they’d probably let you you hit it more than once.

She took a dandy!

My first elk died when a 162g Hornady BTSP InterLock hit it in the chest. Range was about 100 yards using my 7mm RM. The bullet centered an onside rib and slipped between the far side ribs. The bullet's weight was 47.7% when recovered, even though the challenge to its integrity wasn't very much. The spike bull went down but required a finisher shot. I was not impressed.

That was the last time I used a standard cup and core bullet in my bolt rifles for more than three decades. The following year I switched to 160g Speer Grand Slam bullets and it took me 20+ years to recover one. When I did, it had destroyed both shoulder joints of a 6x5 bull elk and was peeking out the bone on the far side. The recovered weight of the Grand Slam was 71.7%.

Since then I've only used premiums for my elk and mule deer hunting. And after seeing more results other people have had in the intervening years, I see no reason to change and lots of reasons not to do so.

Because the 162 Hornady is the most accurate bullet in the majority of my 7mm's, I was also conned into trying it on elk. With the same, reaction. Never hunted them again.

That’s a wicked bull.

The 3 biggest bulls I have l killed all went down with 1 shot with a Sierra GK. Two with a 7mag, 160 gr and one with a 180 gr out of an .06.

I am past 50 elk killed. First one with a.308 and a 165 gr Remington Bronze point in 1966. All in between have been with the .308,180 gr GK, 45-70 and 405 gr Remingtons, 30-30 ,170 gr fl pt, 50 cal.maxiball, 50 cal 348 gr Powerbelt, 7mag Remington,7 mag Weatherby (most with 160 gr GK, some with partitions), many with the .06, with either 180gr GK or 220 gr rn, several with the 180 gr partition.

Pick a bullet that is designed for the impact velocities you expect and go elk hunting. If that is on the north side of 2800-2900fps or so, then yea,you probably need a tougher bullet.

I have not seen one bit of difference in how the elk died that I have killed vs what was on the head stamp of the cartridge or the bullets I used. The ones that I did not make perfect shot (there were a few) went a ways, the ones I did, fell over pretty quick
Either the elk are a lot tougher in other areas than where I hunt, or some hunters need to figure out how and where to shoot elk

I don't know. I will never shoot enough elk to determine that. But I have killed elk with 165 Speer hot core from a 30-06 and 225g TTSX in .338 Win Mag. I hit the first better with the 165 Speer and broke both shoulders. The elk made it 50 yards down hill because it was rolling. However, I had a cousin who guided and hunting in the Bob Marshall for 40 years. He much preferred partitions and later Swift A Frames for elk.

My self concious magnumitus subsided when I was about 30. Now I bone everything I can with my short action, without shame. It is hot loaded though. Find pressure and all...

The projectile is premium, no doubt. It has never failed to perform, nor impress the dudes I mean ladies.

I hunted deer and elk with factory Speer Nitrex 165 gr Grand Slams in .308 Win for several years before I acquired other rifles. None failed to do their job when I did mine. Likewise with .35 Whelen 225 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. In the past ten or twelve years, Barnes TTSX and TSX have been 100% effective on big deer and elk with no critters lost or bullets recovered. Never shot anything but paper with Partitions but your mileage may vary. Are premiums required? Probably not, but who GAS?

This is pretty much what I have seen. Saw one bull hit with a .375, and that I will say was pretty impressive.

On the other hand, the most dramatic reaction I’ve ever seen was with a .243. Before everyone gets their panties twisted, I’m not saying the .243 is superior. Until we figure out how to revive them and duplicate the exact scenario/shot, this war will rage on.

You only have to please yourself.

Don’t let the guys that shoot magnums make you feel inadequate.

In most of the elk country we’ve hunted, you can change terrain from 50 yard shots to as far as you dare....by simply crossing a ridge. It’s pretty nice to have one cartridge/rifle that will work well with both! memtb

There was a thread on another forum maybe 12yrs ago started by a guy who switched to a 375H&H exclusively for big bull elk. He was tired of them running off. The poster had photos and shot placement pictures with multiple bulls taken with just one shot each and straight down results. He mostly hunted off horseback so rifle weight was not a big issue. The thread generated alot of controversy as expected. Can't recall which forum it was on??

Agreed, that how I chose what I use.

With any cartridge/caliber .....results can’t always be predicted. All of my elk have been taken with a .375....the majority with my AI. I seen them collapse at the shot, and once, on a broadside, behind the shoulder shot at 50 yards.....continue walking as if missed. I’m certain he didn’t require a second shot, but, he got one.....while I was asking myself how I could’ve missed! memtb

I shot a rag bull with a .375 H&H back in 2011. 260 partition at about 100 yards. He didn't go anywhere but straight down.

That's what happens when you put a bullet in their brainstem. When they catch your wind and spin on a dime, but you don't have the reaction time to let off the trigger accidental head shots are about as lucky as you can get😀.

24 Hour Classic right there...Laffin’.

I should've added he was shooting them square in the shoulders from different angles and had photos of exactly where he was breaking bone.

I suppose it depends on cartridge and impact velocity. As people hunt elk with smaller and smaller cartridges I see the need for premium bullets increasing overall. For older, low velocity stuff ... .30-40 Krag, .300 Savage, .45-70, with heavier bullets and lower velocity, I think standard cup and core is ok, but you wouldn't catch me hunting elk with a .257 Weatherby and 100 grain Sierras for instance where I might use it with 120 grain partitions. Given the overall cost of elk hunting, I see no reason to try to save a couple bucks by using cheap bullets. It seems disrespectful of the animal to use something more likely to fail to deliver a clean kill and disrespectful to myself to use something that increases the chances of a longer pack out even if the critter is equally dead .. eventually.

Tom

Most bullets will work most of the time.

Are premium bullets "needed" in those situations? No.

Will premium bullets sometimes provide the desired results where a standard bullet failed? Yes.

Premiums are cheap insurance for those other times in my view.

How come any bullet failure comes from people digging bullets out of dead n animals?It has been my experience that a goodly portion of those claims of bullet failure ended up being shooter failures.Like a quartering shot when only one lung was clipped. No one ever fesses up to making a poor shot.Nope it was the bullet.If you select the wrong bullet to do the job,it isn't the bullet's fault. Cheap insurance doesn't makeup for poor judgement.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS Rio7

If I'm shooting something well north of 3,000 fps, I would prefer either a bonded, monolithic, or NP or A-Frame, or whatever won't come apart on close shots--on anything larger than a deer. A non-magnum .243 does that. A 200gr .300 magnum generally doesn't. I'm not arguing for hyper-velocity cartridges, but, if you're using them, you might consider something other than a non-bonded C&C--aside from whether it's "premium" or not. A NBT may be a "premium" bullet, but it would not be my first choice for a bullet launched at 3,500 fps against a large animal, even though they would work most of the time.

Our grandkids will still be arguing premium bullets and cartridge choice for elk long after we are dead.

Nothing to argue really, the .308 with a 165 is the clear winner.

Ha. I agree and hope my grandkids love elk hunting enough to argue with your grandkids about what kills elk deader’er!

My future grandson's father already has decided that the 168gr, not the 165gr, .308 is the greatest.

Judman: Consensus here is to use Nosler 165 grain Partions in 30 caliber Rifles and Nosler 160 grain Partitions in 28 caliber (7m/m) Rifles.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Good placement doesn't guarantee desired bullet performance, even if that bullet and load have been used satisfactorily many times previously.

Likewise, cheap insurance does not provide a guarantee - but I do think the premium bullets I use increase the odds of satisfactory performance - regardless of range.

I've shot elk with Core Lokts, Partitions, Interlocks and SST's. The only one I would not use again is the SST. It basically blew up. Hit the bull behind the shoulder and went straight up and hit the bull in the spine at about 150 yards. Killed him but not what I expect on a broadside shot. My favorite elk bullet is the Interlock. These were all 180gr (except 1-165gr Interlock) and fired from a 30-06. Ranges from 50 to 350 yards. 7 or 8 bull sample. Nearly all were shot broadside, behind the shoulder (don't shoot shoulders on purpose) and most walked off like nothing ever happened, then drop over dead within 50 yards.

Common sense is more important than premium bullets. Push any hunting bullet to IT'S recommended velocity and range and almost any bullet will work. Pushing a standard cup in core to 3200-3500 fps won't.

I’ve only killed 14 elk so I’m waaay down the list compared to some of you guys. Based on my experience if the only bullet I had access to was the Remington Core-Lokt I would hunt with confidence.



P

That’s pretty well put pharm... I’d align with that.

Man, it’d suck to lose the good Bullets though

Careful Tmax . Start talking with common sense and some one here will jump on you

You are right 264, and that is why premium bullets were developed!!! I have shot dozens of elk with various rifles 7mm. & 30 Cal. magnums.. I used cup and core bullets.. I was hunting for meat, so shots were taken that were certain.. I have never looked for a trophy elk.. Except one time.. I took partitions then.. When I hunted in Africa I took only partitions.. I shot one wildbeeste in the shoulder on the left side, it was found in the off hip.. A 200 gr. Nosler .30 cal.. I have shot elk with them also.. They never have failed to do as promised.. Do I need them for elk hunting.. Not really I am a meat hunter when I bother to try for them.. So if a good shot is not presented, I pass.. But if I wanted to besure of an animal I would use a premium bullet.. It can drive through at angles that would never fly with a conventional bullet.. Much of this discussion involves what a hunter is trying to do and why.. Yes regular bullets do fine.. Premium bullets are an insurance of getting to the vitals under less than perfect conditions.. Hunters will bullshit you and say they never shoot unless the shot is perfect.. Lots can happen in the field when a great animal presents itself.. I had a friend who was a bow hunter and a good one.. He told me of shooting a huge 6x6 from the front.. He said he knew better but could not resist because it was so big.. Never found it.. He is a good hunter and regretted his poor decision.. If you are serious about you hunt and the animal you are hunting, you should use the best you can buy..

Ok, now that we’ve concluded the .308 Win with a non premium 165/168 gr bullet is the holy grail of elk hunting, let’s argue the important stuff.

8X or 10X? 42 or 32 objective? 8X42 for me.

Kifaru, Stone Glacier, Mystery Ranch or other? Load shelf or bag for meat? Back and forth between SG and Kifaru for me, load shelf.

12X or 15X if using bigger glass? Really liking the 12X more and more.

Chest harness or strap for binoculars? Which of either? Alaska Guide Creations for me.

Can’t really argue boot fit, but Zamberlan for me.

Eta; yes I’m bored.

Laffin.....

Yes on the Alaska guide creations. 👍😂😂

Hell yesssss! I’d run a Savage before I gave mine up!

Can’t very well argue if we’re all agreeing on the AGC? Would like to try a Marsupial though.

Where’s Tiny at, he hates them.

Let’s not get carried away.

I have the agc and marsupial. the agc stays to home.....

Okay okay okay

You in the AGC to bulky camp too?

WTF bro? They're not liberals....I don't hate them. I just don't like having a backpack on my chest, and since you all do like them....by default I don't.
No dic jokes in response to that OK?

AGC quality is outstanding and they completely enclose the binos. I can see why they're popular. It's too bad I don't like their bulk, as I could get them for 25% off through a work discount.

That don't bother me. I like them to ride higher, not hang down around my belt, and the AGC harness is dogshit for that. I did a buckle swap on the AGC so I can use the better harness off the marsupial on it. Or just clip either to the shoulder straps on my pack, and do away with the harness.

The bulk is not an issue if you have a man size chest.

I did have an issue with it loosening through the day and riding low. Did the buckle change and all is good for me now.

Agreed.

Binos hanging down by lower ribs bugs the hell out of me too, but the two pairs of AGC I had seemed to ride up high just fine, right where my FHFs do. That's odd how you had issues. I wonder if you had an older design?

That's not what MOM said, but she does like bulk.

I miss MOM.

What`s so tough about killing an Elk? Granted, I`ve only killed three, and the last bull was some years ago, 175 grn Sierra Pro Hunter out of my 8mm06 AI. The other two were with 154 grn 7mm SP, 7 Rem Mag. Three shots, three bulls. Or was I indeed using "Premium" bullets and didn`t know it?

These new elk are on steroids and PCP. If you shoot them with Sierras, they will run you down and cram your rifle up your ass. Other "non-premiums", they will catch in their mouths and then spit them back at you, killing you instantly. This is life-and-death stuff, man.

Gee, I didn`t know all that. I had better stick to W.T. deer....using "Premium" bullets, of course.

I do not think anyone suggested that premium bullets are “needed” to kill an elk! If so, they are very incorrect. A premium bullet merely offers another level of insurance! Anyone that would suggest that a fragile bullet has an advantage over a premium bullet on anything less than a perfectly placed shot is delusional! memtb

Stick is that you??

It’s harder to find them than it is to kill them.

This........

And allows the opportunity for more difficult angles. Only occasionally have I had elk stand broadside and pose for me.

That is the problem. A lot of people will not pass on those "difficult" shots and end up wounding elk whether using a premium or C&C bullet.The difference between a wounding and a killing shot of a raking angle is a few inches and a wounding shot is just that,no matter what bullet is being used. Funny, I killed elk every year for 30+ years, sometimes two, except 2020 when my knees and health gave out. I can't remember ever taking one of those "difficult" shots. At most, maybe I clipped shoulder when I should have shot maybe 2" further back.There is is no sin to putting the safety back on if a suitable shot does not present itself. A person is not going to starve and more than likely if he or she is good hunter, the elk will turn to offer a better shot if the hunter has patience, or another elk will come along.I get tired of hearing hunters say,"by God I spent a few thousand dollars on his hunt and I am going to take any shot to put an elk down " or " I shoot this super duper magnum with these super penetrating bullets and I can put an elk down if I shoot it in the butt and the bullet will come out it's mouth" or. " I'm not passing on a 350+ bull no matter how it is standing.I don't care about the meat anyways".

Agree completely.

failed bullets? a picture of a failed bullet [ on the right] the rest are premium bullets that were recovered because the angle was severe and the bullet stayed in the elk or moose. the bullet on the right was against the skin of a bull and was healed, no idea how long the bull had carried it before i killed him, but it had to be over a year. it is a 30 cal

Couldn't disagree more SS.

I killed my first elk in 1971. I killed my last two elk a a couple months ago. Both were "difficult" shots that I would never take with a conventional jacketed bullet. My freezer is full of elk meat.

"Nuff said........

For many years hunting forums are full of posts by (no-doubt experienced) hunters, who claim that anyone who uses an above-averaged performance cartridge or anything but the cheapest bullets are just complete dipchits who are looking to shoot an elk in the rectum or something equally stupid.

I bought a truck that is more capable off-road than some cheaper models, and I didn't put the cheapest tires on it. Doesn't mean I'm going to stupidly roll it, rather than use it wisely to be able to go more places.

I don't buy the cheapest tires, and I don't necessarily use the cheapest bullets. It doesn't make my rifle magic, but it also doesn't make me reckless when shooting it.

Thing is, you just don't have enough experience to be nearly the loudest voice in the room... have you even killed an elk? Any elk?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion - but not all opinions are equal.

If "elk" is the only valid measure of effectiveness and with a grand total of ONE elk (180gr TTSX 300 Weatherby@ 330 yards one shot) then my opinion is well below the standard. But if similarly sized and configured animals can be substituted, I've taken about half a dozen of those so I'll offer this: I shot an impala with a 180gr Hornady Interlock quartering towards me at about 80 yards on the point of the shoulder. DRT and recovered the bullet in the offside ham, weighing right at 79gr or so. What if that exact same shot been taken with an elk (sized) animal with the same parameters? Suffice it to say, on my next trip I switched to Partitions that penetrated almost the same, except this time it was a kudu and a wildebeest. I eventually switched to TTSXs with even better performance. I think I'd opt for premiums.

Now for a counterpoint, my uncle too two rifles on his three Safaris back in the late sixties early 70s, a 458 Model 70 and a 270 of the same make using old fashioned Winchester Silvertips. Except for the elephant and buffalo, he took everything else including lion with the 270.

On that point are any of us really wrong Brad. We all have different experiences while hunting and killing elk. I’m all for fellas using what they feel comfortable and efficient with in the field.

No doubt some may not have the vast amount of elk kills to absolutely make concrete assumptions. The one fella uses the same combo for 30+ years to knock down elk and his experience is narrow and the other uses a different rifle for 39 elk and his experience is limited since he only used each rifle/cartridge and bullet once

Nope. Just been on two brief elk hunts, due to work, and am making it my priority going forward.

My voice wasn't loud. I was just pointing out how some, but not all, successful hunters derogate people who use certain components, and claim that people who use them are retards. I've never criticized someone else's choice of bullet to make me seem important, which is some of what's going on.

You ever killed anything this big?:

God damn that’s a big moose. 👍

It's actually an elk with weird antlers.

All I heard when I drew my oryx tag was how tough they were. So I used the ultra premium bonded monolithic tipped blah blah bla Hornady interlock. 😂😂😂

Nice Judman. What rifle/round/bullet did you do that with, and at what range? Just curious about the backstory .

Hornady does work.

Nice SLM. Is that Oryx dead, or is he just sleepy? More details?

Awesome Oryx fellas! Those are too darned cool!

Accubonds do too.

I train them to pose.

/06, 180 Hornady on the first, 165 Accubond on the second. Shot placement was almost identical, but the second one needed another shot in the neck. ( that’s all that was visible)

Drew the tag first year I applied, stallion range on the wsmr. Hunter in the flats for about a hour, dummies flying around shootin like madmen. Pard and I drove up the a mountain range and setup the glass. Pard spotted him couple miles away, made a hunt on him. We popped out at 475-480 yards, bugger already had us pegged. I set up on my sticks as he was goin 1/4’d away. I raked him, just in front of the onside ham, bullet angled up to opposite front shoulder. He didn’t react much but we heard the shwack. He ran a little ways, stopped, stepped up on this rock pinicle like a ibex, all his feet on a rock the size of a 55 gallon drum lid, started swaying and did a nose dive off the rock and fuucking cartwheeled 100 yards or better!! I bout puked, figgered his horns were broke to shiit. Made our way over to him, horns were fine other thansome scuffs. During the tumble one of his horns poked through a hide quarter, pretty gnarly. Super fun hunt, best wild meat I’ve had. Taped out at 36”, heavy bases, old stud bull. Rifle was a browning abolt 338 wm, 3-9 ziess, no turrets, just familiarity with the rifle. Hornady 225”s. Couple months before killed a stud double shovel mtn caribou in bc at 20-25 yards, same rifle/load.

Nice bulls brother. I’d love to do it again

Great account JMan, my buddy used his Whelen on his. Said them bastards are wicked tough as far as absorbing a shot and acting like it is no big deal.

Can’t wait to give em a shot. The meat, as you said is worth the price of admission.

My Grandad asked me years ago to load him a box of those new Barnes TSX bullets for his 30-06. He’d read in some magazines that they were just the ticket for elk and wanted to try them out. He was about 78 years old at the time so I bought a box of 168s and loaded him some up. But at the same time I had to chuckle a little, he’s always shot 165 boat tail factory stuff, first some old WW load, then Federal red box, then Winchester Ballistic silver tips. None of them are especially tough bullets, but all but one elk I ever saw him shoot died of a broken neck. The one he chest shot was a 2 year old heifer and close to 350-400 yards when he was 77. Probably doesn’t matter too much what you use if you can put it in the right spot every time.

Ya he didn’t go out like no biitch!! 😂😂

Soaked up that 225 without a flinch. Suppose he went 50-75 yards. Nice thing about that open country is you can watch em, up here critters take a step or 2 they’re usually outta sight

Yours as well. They are one of my favorite animals to hunt.

Fortunate to be able to be involved in at least one a year most years. Will be on two this year.

They are a tough animal. Not particularly hard to kill IMO, but it can be a long day if you hit one bad.

Hopefully they say the same about us when we go JMan! Ha!!!

SLM, NM is a pretty danged cool place. The range and quality of animals is a darned treasure.

I was 17 going on my first deer hunt with my saved and bought first rifle, a M70 7 Rem. Up till that point I’d used 140 Partitions and H870 and stuff just flopped. Well, I’d read that a moose Bullet should be heavier. Used those stupid original Barnes X’s and it was the worst thing i did. Made solid shots but those things were just too hard. Had it been the little magical 140 PT stuff would’ve been much easier.

Haha no doubt!!

Ya New Mexico is a cool place, wish they weren’t so greedy with tags!!

I’ll never forget, first time I ever seen bars at a cash register. Rolled into soccoro, hit the super 8 got situated. Rolled in to grab some Copenhagen and wild turkey. Damn clerk was standing behind bars!! I said what the hell is this about?? Guy looks at me like I got 2 heads, he says, “mister, you see all the Mexicans and Indians around??” Haha 😂

NM does have some neat stuff to hunt, berets. Like everywhere, it is getting tougher every year to draw though. Pretty sure I’ll get a desert sheep tag this year though.😀

Jud, I agree, New Mexico Council of Guides and Outfitters screwed residents as well as NR DIY hunters when the senate bill on tag allocations passed. I’d like to see the outfitter pool eliminated and a 85/15 split.

All that work with your pet goats has paid off....

I remember years ago Ol George taulman and grizz Montoya were pressing the issue. It’s gettin tough everywhere anymore to get tags.

I totally effed up two years ago. I put in for the dream hunts, figure I might as well try. Well I busted on the draw, then in December they called me 5-6 days before I’d need to be there to hunt that since I said I’d be available for other hunts, well, I should have just ditched work and went and Chased bulls in December. Mark that down as a dummy choice. I could’ve remade the money but I still don’t have one of them great big NM bulls.

Hell yes, I knew them damn things would pay off some day.

Still not sure how you can make the sale and still have them damn things in the back?

I’ll tell you what, Wyoming is really good to us NR’s and even a bit better to us Vets. I tip my hat to them Wyoming folks. They do alright by me and they manage their elk pretty danged well.

Just my opinion though.

I shot my first and biggest bull to date with one of the old smooth sided X bullets out of my 30/06, 180 over IMR4350. I poked him through the ribs as he stood on a nearly vertical canyon wall from 402 yards. He did the HiHo Silver gig, took one step forward behind a juniper and just stood there offering no shot, seemed like an eternity before he folded up and rolled down the mountain.

I was just a teenager and loaded with a Hodgdon manual blindly believing what it claimed for speed. My gun shot best with the starting load and having never heard of a chronograph I figured 2700 was fast enough. Used that load for years and piled up a boxcar’s worth of dead stuff. Got the opportunity to run some over a chrono one day and was surprised to see they averaged 2488! I had been using a long action 300 Savage and didn’t even know it.

Beretzs, do you remember if that was for the depredation hunt on Bosque Del Apache and unit 18.

2 years ago they had some hunts down there and killed some great bulls. A 380 bull was killed off the refuge.

There is a gentleman that sales hunts on here every year that is pretty proud to tell you he was instrumental in getting the 10% outfitter pool and dropping the NR pool to 6%.

That’s funny stuff buddy. Same for me and the 7 Mag. I think Speer said 3200 with 81-82 grains of H 870, but i still don’t know what it made for speed. Long time gone.




It was some thing like that SLM. I honestly can’t remember but I’d pass out with a 380 bull

Ok, so you’ve never killed an elk (even though you post constantly on the elk forum loudly) have done a guided hunt in AK and posted the two dead critters from that trip ad infinitum.

Got it...

That’s too bad. Getting harder and harder to get on them once in a lifetime sorta hunts for the regular guy.

Boy that’s the shiits Scotty, probably never get that chance again

Ya, you should have went.😀

JERKS. you two are going on report!

😂😂

I still have never had a rocky mountain bull elk tag that wasn't a general tag. The Alaskan Rosie was a draw, and I've got plenty of extra cow tags in Wyoming and Montana, but never a rocky bull draw tag .
NM, and especially 16B can suck my ballz.

Hunted AK many times. Give me an example of "loudness" posting, please. Killed bigger stuff than you ever have on multiple occasions. But if I like Y bullet I'm a loser because you think W bullet is enough.

Obfuscate:
intransitive verb
: to be evasive, unclear, or confusing

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obfuscate

BLUF: No, you dont need a premium...but it's not going to hurt either.

Heres my post from a thread about Nosler Ballistic Tips. Its relevant here since we are talking elk if you want to read through it. Mushroomed bullet is the same bullet in both pics and is not related to either hunt. It's a 175g Win factory 7mmRM taken from an elk i shot at 350 yds in the late 80s.

"Sometimes bullets just dont behave the way we think they should.

1991 I shot a bull elk with a 30-40 at 50yds head on center mass in the neck/throat with a 220g Hornady. I found the almost complete jacket (no lead) stuck in a heart valve. Bull died though.

Cant remember the year but i shot a bull elk muzzleloading and found the complete rear end of a 7mm Partition against the hide; center chest. (that was a true Whisky Tango Foxtrot over)


Another year muzzleloading i found a BT bullet jacket (weighed 52g, cant tell the caliber) in a ball of gristle under the spine of a bull elk.


2018 i shot a bull elk with a 165g Hornady BTSP at 175 yds with a 308 Win. When we got to the tracks (lots of show) there were two single drops of blood 15 yards past where i shot it. 50 yards past that, the bull laid down and left a silver dollar sized spot of blood. Then, not one drop of blood in the 500 YARDS we followed that bull which my cousin finished at 30 yards. My bullet hit right at the back rib and angled up to between the 4th and 5th rib. Yes, a little far back but I hit the liver and the lung on the left side. I found a 23g piece of lead in the off side hide; no jacket. Had there not been snow i would have sworn for the rest of my life that i somehow missed that bull which, would have died.

Sometimes bullets just don't behave the we would like. The common thread in my experiences, all are bull elk. Yes, elk die easy...but they can make bullets work awfully hard and leave people talking."

Personally, I have taken 20 elk including 4 bulls. Considering other campmates I have witnessed or heard details of over 50 additional elk. To the OP's question, in a word, no. Placement is more important than a premium bullet. But a premium is never a liability. But I have seen too many elk hung in the meat shed via a cup and core bullet too. Shoot the bullet that is accurate, don't shoot beyond your confidence distance, and place the reticle in the right spot.

That's a fact.

WHY NOT, obviously they are effective. I have only seen one elk shot with a cup and core bullet, and it did not go well. The next 150+ were/have been shot with premium bullets. Again why not???

Hel f a lot f elk were killed before premium bullets, so needed. No. However, elk hunting is an expensive proposition so premium bullets are cheap. Get the good bullet and you won’t be sorry

no

You've seen 150+ rifle shot elk (I presume you're a guide) but only one was shot with a standard C&C bullet?
All those clients through all those years and only one was what I would consider a "normal" hunter, and not a rifle/bullet looney hunter?

Am I reading your post correctly?

I know, right?? Haha

Finally got one to bite😂😂👍

Either that or he finally got someone to bite on his baited post...

That someone being me

Haha

Do you really need a sharp broadhead 2 hunt elk?

Asking for a friend.

When I started elk hunting I used a 30-06 and the 150 gr. Speer flat based spritzer Hotcor, one shot apiece on three elk in a row. All were broadside in the ribs around center right behind the shoulder. All three bullets were either in the far ribs or against the hide. My also young at the time hunting partners were using mostly 150 grain Remington or Winchester factory loads, the cheap stuff. We tried to pick our shots and did well generally. My 4th elk was a pretty nice 6 point and I made the mistake of leading him just a bit too much and hit him in the shoulder, the bullet did get through it but the wound channel was narrow and this elk went a long way before going down. Thank God for snow. And the fact we got a snow machine right next to him. Got pretty cold cleaning him after dark. I switched to 180 gr. Speer Hotcors for a couple of elk making every effort to not hit a shoulder and even making a neck hit which dropped it. I shot another elk in the shoulder in thick timber south of Bondurant. This bullet ended up looking like a 30 caliber wadcutter under the hide on the far side. Another pretty long tracking job and we found this one had crawled up under some willows and chopping that away was a real lesson in hard work. After that I used Partitions on elk in both my 30-06 and a 270. What do you know I started getting some exits. So do you have to use premium bullets no you don't. I will use them on elk if I can every time. I went on to play with 300 Win mag, 7MM Rem mag and a 338 Win mag. I used Hornady 175 gr. interlocks on one elk, a 250 gr. Sierra Gameking on another which turned out to be the most epic elk recovery of my life and rest assured I could not get that done at this stage of life. I used a 200 gr. Partion out of the 300 Win Mag and guess what? Text book hit just behind the shoulder, out the far side and elk went 30 yards downhill. We were able to back the truck up to the hill and after we cleaned him easily slid his big arse into the truck! Perfect bullet performance. I went back to using my 30-06 and shot my 20th elk with it in 2017. Odd thing I used the 270 occasionally and every elk shot with it went down quickly and with no drama. 150 gr. Partitions after I switched from 150 gr. Speer Hotcors but both bullets worked really well. Maybe the 270 was just a lucky rifle.

Actually no..... you simply “need” the new 6.5 pena-more arrows! memtb

I think Bills talking about the elk he’s taken, along with his dad, myself a few of us others that have been hunting together. I think he started hunting elk in the late 50’s or 60’s with his dad and their partners. There’s actually been a few more C&C kills but most of ours in our group has been with Accubonds, Sciroccos, Partitions and Bullets like that. I did use a 212 ELD this fall so that’s a plain C&C as well.

We debate this same exact thing every fall in camp. It’s all good fellas, Bills used 180 Partitions for around 75 elk I think and a smattering of Accubonds and probably some others he’s forgotten about.

So I don’t absolutely say it has to be a bonded super bullet to kill bulls at all, but most of the time I don’t see any downside to it either.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.
I still am a bit apprehensive about the premium/standard bullet ratio with that high of sample, but I do appreciate the response.

I think us, to include me have ran premiums since I started since that is what we were told. So honestly I’m sure other normal cup and cores would work fine if they’re run appropriately. I used the 212 ELD from an 06 and was mighty impressed. But I don’t think that bullet is even close to being stressed at 06 speeds. I think old Bill and his dad started with Partitions after some Sierras out of an 06 didn’t kill a couple elk real well so they switched and he’s ran the same load of 4350 and a 180 PT in a 300 Win longer than I’ve been alive so I don’t argue with how it works.

I learn stuff from you all all the time. These threads are pretty neat to me as some of you all have a lot of elk under your belt so I watch, read and listen.

Thanks again for the additional clarification.
I guess it would also depend on a person's definition of "premium" vs "standard C&C", which I mixed up when responding to elkmen's post.

When I think of "standard C&C" bullets I think of corelocks, powerpoints and some of the cheaper hornady's, etc. that a guy can buy at Walmart in a box of 20 loaded rounds. Bullets such as bergers, ELDMs, Scenars, accubonds, etc. are C&Cs, but are also "premiums", to me at least. Elkmen said he has seen 1 elk killed by C&C out of 150+....do you think he may have meant what I refer to as "standard C&C"? That would still be a stretch in my mind but if he wasn't guiding and they were all in his party than I guess I could buy it.

I have seen elk killed with all of the above and when used as designed and (with some) heavy bone is avoided, they're all perfectly adequate.

He might’ve. He used a plain Jane 162 Hornady BTSP from a 7 Rem on a small bull at 400’ish from what I remember. This was in Wyoming, that bullet just went to pieces on a front leg and required another finisher to kill it. It was a mangler. It did kill the elk, but I’d bet a buck a 160 AB would’ve hammered on thru and done just as good of a job killing the bull.

So yeah, long way around the tent pole I’d say that’s what he is thinking about plain old C&Cs. As far as I know that Hornady and the old Sierras him and his dad were using long before I was alive were the only plain janes.

I’ve got a bunch of pictures from about the last 25 or so elk we’ve taken with our recovered Bullets. I like to dig thru them after they’re taken care of cause I think it’s interesting to see what actually happened to the bullets. We see it all the time on here about what folks “think” happened but without digging around a bit it’s still guessing.

And agree, with the right shot and staying off bone it opens a lot of doors and I’d not stay home if I had to hunt with any (Fed, CorLokts, PPs) you mentioned but like you said, you can’t expect miracles from them either nor probably from the great Bullets, but it is a decent Bet the better Bullets will at least break a near side joint and push into the chest.

Boy, you guys sure should have this figured out by now. These damn modern elk just must me tougher. I make a point to not use premium bullets and every year for the last 30 years a couple elk seem to die around here.

Jim Bridger, Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, they all tried to kill elk but their black powder balls simply bounced off! :-)

Bullet designs have been improved in recent decades and centuries. Doesn't mean the old stuff, like musket balls or various C&Cs, won't work on large game. But the newer stuff is better in terms of reliability and penetration. All kinds of projectiles will kill large game, dating back to 3,000,000 years ago. Buying modern bullets, or not, on many elk hunts is a cost factor that is a fraction of a thousandth of the cost of the hunt.

^^^^^^^^This ^^^^^^^^


In all of this diatribe,I don’t recall anyone suggesting that premium bullets were required to kill an elk...... the premium bullet simply an improved mousetrap! Most of us enjoy modern vehicles, homes with central heat and air conditioning, probably prepare most meals on a modern stove. Very few of us would prefer to leave these modern conveniences behind and live without them. Many of us old bastards likely embrace modern medicines that are keeping us on the grassy side of dirt! A premium bullet is nothing more than a better way to accomplish a task! memtb

True. And a cheap Aeroflot plane likely will get you there without dying, but a Boeing 777 will do the same with more confidence and greater reliability. Costs just a bit more.

DLS, what is your pick for the regular Bullets you use?

I’m not about to regale this group with counts if dead elk, etc. However, several of my serious hunting buddies of 15+ years used factory Hornady Interlocks and various Ballistic Tips and Core Lokts. I even used Speer Nitrex Grand Slams back in the day. Every single one of them are now shooting Barnes TTSX or LRX for mule deer and elk. The only bullets I’ve used in the past 30 years are TBBC and Barnes TSX and TTSX. Shoot the cheapos if you must. Several guys I know still use Norma Oryx and Nosler accubonds with success. If you feel like an atlatl is effective enough, go for it. Or maybe some olde Silvertips......
Happy Trails

The ole timers usually bought what was on the shelf and went hunting.

I'm talking real ole timers:

Some random thoughts regarding this bullet debate.......

I live close to the elk I hunt. So I can spend days scouting, and I spend many more days practicing my marksmanship on the various varmints that Idaho offers, year round. Being retired doesn't hurt!!!

I've invested alot of money in gear and lots of hours staying in shape for the hunting season. I get to my hunting area a few days before the season starts, so I have a very good chance of killing my target bull, on opening day. I can't remember the last year I failed to kill an elk.

I hunt solo.

Elk are the reason I moved to Idaho, years ago.

I utilize the elk I kill for my yearly supply of meat.....along with a few deer.

The only contact you have with the elk, before he is dead, is the bullet. I use larger calibers than most that have posted, and heavy bullets for that caliber....I try for exit holes, no matter the angle. Recoil does not bother me.....I shoot year round...."alot" by most people's standards.

With everything invested in the hunt, time/effort and money, you think I'm using anything other than a premium bullet (even if its not "needed")?

Andy3

I think this discussion gets into a government like deal.

Just throw money at the problem......

Problem is .....most " failures" aka problems regarding elk harvest........

Were not caused by bullet selection....

But certainly not selecting a bullet you are confident in......seems odd.

I've seen quite a few hunters who were confidant in their elk bullet--until they hit bone..........

Hitting an elk in the thick part of the shoulder bone or upper leg bone significantly narrows the bullet choices.

Very hard to argue against CH’s logic.

I recently shot a Red Stag that weighed around 450lbs.I shot it with a 300 Win Mag and a 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip about a 100yards away.My load had a mv at 3100fps.I hit the onside shoulder and left a silver dollar size exit behind the offside shoulder.That bullet held up really well.I think Nosler has come a long way in improving the ballistic tips over the years.They beefed up the jackets and they must use a hard lead for the core.I was impressed by how little the meat was bloodshot around the wound channel.What I've noticed over the years is,if you have a cup and core bullet that has a soft lead core,it will shed a lot of weight and often produces a lot of very bloodshot meat.I don't know when Mule deer did this test but it is an interesting read.Because bullet makers tend to play around with bullets from time to time,I'm sure the results can vary as well. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/rifle-bullet-hardness/

A friend of mine that has killed a LOT of big game animals in several countries told me his favorite elk load was a 165 gr Nosler ballistic tip out of any 30 caliber magnum. In his words, a NBT is a forgiving bullet. It can make a marginal shot a good shot. In the heat of the moment, things can and do go wrong and bullets don't end up where they were supposed to occasionally.

I shoot NBTs when I can because they are accurate. It doesn't take much to stop a heart, but you have to hit it.

I wonder what they used to kill elk before the "premium" bullets came around? Maybe elk have gotten tougher over the years....

"The cost of the bullet is so inconsequential when compared to the rest of the hunt" - a mantra promulgated by the sellers, just like "You get what you pay for".

So, is there really much difference between the AB and the BT? I just looked up the 180gr .308 cal. you mentioned. They have the same sectional density and B.C., different colored tip, and the AB has a thicker jacket at the base and is bonded. I'm not suggesting that the BT doesn't do great things, which, as you have shown, it does, but why not merge them and call it the Nosler Accubonded Ballistic Tip or Nosler X-Bonded Accuballistic Tip or something? Or is there an advantage to the NBT over the AB?

EDIT: I see now, the NBT is much cheaper.

They killed them the same way everyone survived serious infections before antibiotics.

I could be wrong,but I think they use the same copper jacket for the Accubond and Ballistic tip of the same caliber and bullet weight.According to Mule Deer's article,the lead cord hardness was different between the bonded Accubond and the non-bonded Ballistic Tip.See article: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/rifle-bullet-hardness/ The bullet manufactures could make changes to the core and the bullet could perform much different.I was surprised to see the 165gr Hornady he tested had the hardest core of the ones he tested.I used that bullet in my 300 WSM running around 3050fps.I shot four deer with that bullet and none of the bullets exited.The retained weight of the bullet I recovered was 40%.Meat damage was too massive for my liking,so I moved Hornady Interbond which is another very tough bullet.I've only been able to recover one 140gr Accubond from a hog I shot with my 7mag.The retained weight was 60%.I haven't been able to recover any of the beefed up Ballistic Tips because everything exited.I did find a picture of a 165gr recovered from the fifth water jug in a bullet test.It looks good to me.

I have a close friend who lives in Missoula, mt. who has one big game rifle, in 30-06. He kills at least 1 elk per year and has been hunting at least 30 years. He buys whatever is on sale at his local wmt, usually power points or core lokts. He'd say premiums are not needed. However, for the hunter spending thousands, and coming from out of state, I'd say a premium bullet is a good choice considering the other costs associated with the hunt. One might call it cheap insurance.

I'd say your close friend has proven you wrong!

I hunt Elk with a 300 Win mag and a .30-06. My outfitter in Eastern Oregon recommends 185 grain Berger VLD hunting bullets for the 300 and 180 grain Nosler BT's for the .30-06. These have worked for me.

Not if you use a 45-70

Probably not. But it won’t hurt.
I’m all about Ttsx for elk.

Any one who hunts elk with a 45/70 and is consistent in harvest......gets my attention and respect.

This. I prefer Barnes, Hammers, Nosler.

Spend $3k on an out of state elk trip and cut corners on a $19.95 box of ammo makes perfect sense, eh?

That is a load of crap. Any shot taken with a premium bullet that kills well can be matched by well chosen cup and core bullet. Same goes for any shot that wounds and any shot that simply miss's!

I agree with WAM. One could also add the scenario that here in Oregon it typically will take a resident 6 years or more to accumulate enough preference points to draw one of the better units. Some of the really desirable hunts may take 20 or more points. I guess in the end, everyone can hunt with whatever legal weapon and bullet they choose. I don't see why some people get all bent when someone has a different point of view.
Steve

This discussion begins to look like the mask-wearing dilemma. Maybe you "premiums are good insurance" guys should start shooting two or three at a time.

You can tell who has shot elk, and who just shoots bs..

Opinions are like a-holes. Everyone has one, just some are bigger and stinkier than others. Some just think anything posted contrary to their opinion is wrong or just plain stupid. Happy Trails

And.....any junkyard tire that will hold air will get you there! But, a new one may do it a lot safer! memtb

Yep, you should wear three masks, and get an anal swab daily. Just to be safe.

Premiums seem like a good idea in big bear country.

Just stack the deck in your favor man. That is what I do with elk/moose etc.

Actually I begun exercising this philosophy on deer too lately.

Ahhh, these heroes don’t need any premiums for big game or bears. Just kill ‘em with bare hands and a Ka-Bar. Happy Trails

Ahhh, but do they use a premium Ka-Bar?

IDK, were elk killed before premium bullets existed???

Were elk killed before bullets existed?

Depends... Are we talking .375 H&H or .25-06???

Question asked, question answered....

No. Majority of elk I’ve killed have been angling shots. A bullet that penetrates and does it consistently isn’t just a choice.
Both elk I killed this year were shoulder shots into the bigger shoulder joint/ leg bone. A standard cup & core has low odds of reaching the boiler room.

Sometimes no matter how good we think we are the bullet doesn’t always hit where it should. Whether it hits bone or has to travel a ways to reach the vitals a premium is essential.

From my own hunting, to guiding, or with family and friends, I have spent enough time chasing elk hit in the right place with the wrong bullet. Do the the elk and yourself a favor and use a premium........

And it rages on.

Haha, are Hornady interloks or nosler bt’s premium? Let alone any of the musket bullets I’ve used? Haha this [bleep] cracks me up pard.

It’s always good entertainment.

Give me either and I’d happily hunt elk the rest of my life.

I told em 10 pages ago I was joking! 😂😂😂

Joking? This is serious stuff.😀

So, we don't "need" bullets.

No just Cup and core. Call it a Berger Ka-bar!

+1

23 years with a 30-30 170gr corel-lokt. 40 years with a .54 round ball.

Are those premium bullets? Both worked fine but I got close and only took double lung shots. I never felt handicapped.

Most popular cartridge in the last Yellowstone great Elk drive ---- 32-20.

Of course then they got close and knew how to shoot.

I heard it was the .25/35 or .22Hipower..

I read the first few pages and the last few pages but didn’t see an argument against using premium bullets.

Why not? Most people spend more on soda or beer than the difference in “premium bullets”

Though truthfully I have failed to recover two elk after shooting them with premium bullets. I attribute both to dumbassery over bullet selection.

The frontiersmen in the 1800’s had no issues harvesting elk with low velocity muzzleloaders and soft lead bullets...

Funny post.

Well the 150 grain 7MM Nosler Ballistic Tip acts like a premium bullet. Hit em in the ribs with just about any reasonable bullet and you will have an elk.

The first 11 or 12 elk I shot was with a Hornady 180 gr Interlock.All dead,some ran 20 yards or so but all fell to a cup and core bullet so Yea they will kill.
Premium bullets may be better but if there comes a time where bullets become scarce I won't hesitate to use a cup and core bullet.

That’s a darned good point.

I know a bunch of consistent elk killers who don’t even know what a premium bullet is.

I feel like I'm smart to have only used premium bullets on elk (Partitions, original Xs, TSXs, and TTSXs). I don't get to do it much - only every few years Tags come hard in AZ.
But I KNOW I have no business commenting on the efficacy of C&C bullets on elk because I never used one on an elk. I'll trust what those that have say.
After 18 years of applying I drew an AZ antelope tag last year and during my 10-day hunt, got to know a nice man and his son who worked the Fort Rock Ranch. I asked what they used for elk when they hunted there. They said .243 Winchesters. I asked what bullets. "Factory 100 grain Core Lokts" they said. "Shoot 'em behind the shoulder and they go right down" they said... "We never lost one yet."
I believe them 100%. But 200 grains is the lightest bullet I ever shot an elk with (.358 Win). In the 35 Whelen AI I've killed with 225 and 250. I like doing it that way and will probably keep on.
I did take my 6.5x55 on a cow hunt one year with 140 Partitions, and was fully confident in it. But I never got a shot. And I have been working on a good 30-06 load with the 200 Partition at 2700 FPS over RL-26 that I would shoot any elk from any reasonable angle with. Might use it when I draw again some day.

Now I'm just rambling...sorry.

Y'all use what you want and good luck to ya!
Rex

^^^THIS^^^

Large cavitations in the heart region tend to put things down quickly....

After I spent a lot of money on tags, Gear, Rifles, including premium glass! The last thing I'm gonna do is use cheap ammo that I didn't test at the range!!! Now if you want to use cheap ammo, and have tested it at the range at various distances, and are confident in your ammo. Go for it! I've had custom ammo loaded for a few bucks more and tested it at the range and I'm very happy with it! Today, you can get some very good ammo off the shelf, and test it at the range, and knowing your equipment and ammo through testing takes all the guess work out of it!!! Different strokes!

Simple answer----NO Rio7

I really don't think so, but why not use them.

I started elk hunting late in life (28 or so), using .308 Winchester lever guns. For bullets I used 150 grain Winchester Power Points and 165 grain Sierra boattails. Both loads killed elk everytime I hit one.
A couple years later I switched to an '06 and 180 gr Partition and TBBC bullets. I actally believe the Noslers kill a bit more slowly than the cup and cores but my sample on elk is pretty small. TBBC's (originals) are devastating. They don't always shoot well in some rifles so I switch back and forth based on that.

My wife bought me a M70 SS Classic 20 or so years ago and I used it on a few elk and will again when I get over my hip replacement surgeries. After I got it I found it liked TBBC 225 gr Hi-Energy loads. I bought a pile of them.They are devastating.
I started running low but I found a few more on the Campfire so I am set for life. Except for elk I use a handload with 225 grain Hornady I/L. They too are devastating. While I believe I see some more reaction when using the .338, I don't think they drop measureably quicker.

Are premium bullets needed for ELK ? You can twist and turn it any way you want, with any chamber and bullet, the answer is still NO! . Elk are not bullet proof, no matter what you have read or heard. Rio7

No. It's not hard to stop a heart, but you have to hit it.... However, I use premium bullets, when I can because I think they are more accurate.

All one has to do is play by the old school cup and core rules. Heavier bullets at a bit lower impact speeds. That’s how the .30-06/180 became a benchmark.

Again.....CH’s logic is sound.

Where is that lil' guy.......scenarshooter......imparting all his elk hunting wisdom?

Maybe......but premiums aren't that expensive.

Were elk killed before there were premium bullets????

Yea......and you were intelligent until you interacted with smart people.

Where is that lil' fellar, scenarshooter?

He can tell us all about bullet performance.

Awareness isn't a strong suit for you, is it?

Is he enroute to Iowa?

You seem bitter, SKane.

Sucks when the bullies get bullied.

At higher velocities & questionable angles premium bullets might make the difference in a fatal wound and a recovered elk or a slow death & not recovering your elk. Shooting them under 300 yards broadside through the heart/lungs they might be less effective. At 75 yards angling through the shoulder you bet they make a difference. Broken bones & an exit wound are really nice to have in that situation. If you hunt like a bow hunter & take only sure thing shots with your rifle no difference at all. If you take a shot though a hole in the trees & brush that angles through the vitals they are well worth the added cost.

People kill elk with arrows traveling at 250fps or slower, but a bullet traveling a few thousand feet per second doesn’t have a chance unless it’s premium…..

Some bullets bounce off elk

Some bullets hit them right in the heart but the elk runs 100 miles and is never found

Some bullets hit an elk 6 times in the vitals and that elk kept on running, never to be found

All bullets are premium. Hit em where it counts

I am not a premium snob by any means, but I am not sure I would agree with comparing how bullets kill as opposed to how broadheads kill. That's a church girl to hooker comparison (literally?). One kills by shock and destruction, the other kills by internal bleeding: at least that's how they kill when used as designed. Both can be insanely lethal, but their mechanism is vastly different. What are your thoughts on a bullet at 250 FPS?

Only if you're shooting a .243.

If it puts a hole in the right place then it will work. It’s all about a hole through something that matters

+1000

Best answer here

One slices its way through, the other pounds its way through. You can put a deep hole in something and get penetration at 250 fps using razor sharp blades, but not with a bullet.

Archery and rifle can be similar in one way.

I'll put it in equation form, for all you fellow databasers.

Broadhead + heavy bone = bad

Light, frangible bullets + heavy bone = bad

Of course.......those equations to not apply when the weapon is "in the hands of an expert".

All I’m trying to say is with an arrow, a premium bullet, or a blue box federal, you need to put a hole in a vital. Nothing will kill without a hole in an important organ….or artery.

Are you saying that there are non-premium bullets that If placed where an arrow needs to be in order to kill an elk, the bullet won’t kill but the arrow will?

That's a very gnarrly question, especially when it's doubled up..

What I'm saying is, if they're both travelling at 250 fps, "yes."

You two should work in a think tank.

.........serving coffee.

Btw, this was a humorous post, as I’ve killed and seen more elk killed than 99.9% of the folks here, most with bow; musket and cup n core bullets. But carry on, it’s quite enjoyable.👍

But aren't elk armor plated?

That's what I heard before I started hunting them. Since ten have seen them killed with old-fashioned 2-blade broadheads (me) and probably two dozen cartridges from the .22-250 up to the mid-.30's. Amazingly, all those hit in the vitals fell inside 100 yards.

While I hate to disagree with mule deer but I’ve had an older 150 grain Nosler ballistic tip hit and fragment on a bull elks ribs. It died after roughly 500 yards luckily leaving a bloody trail in the snow the whole way. Had a hunting partners bull elk shot through both lungs & broken shoulder walking steadily toward the private ranch before I finished it with a too high spine shot. They aren’t bulletproof but they are tough & sometimes can cover ground with clearly fatal wounds.

Wonder if a 160 grain bullet traveling at 250fps, shot from 30 yards away would indeed penetrate to the heart of an elk if we’ll placed. It wouldn’t open, so it would be like a field point……so possibly I guess.

Would an arrow traveling 3000fps kill an elk at 600 yards?

No, you couldn't hit one at 600 because the vanes would get ripped off and it wouldn't fly straight

I didn't say "fletching" because you need a really good compound bow to get to 3,000 fps.

So after premium is defined we gotta ask the question, before the Nosler Partition showed up did hunters shoot and kill elk every season? I remember the two most respected bullets in Alaska by the guides and hard core hunters I met as a kid in the 60's were the Nosler Partitions and the "old style" Core-Lokt bullets. I wonder how much "bullet failure" was poor shot placement for a variety of reasons, or poor bullet selection for the chosen animal.

A older neighbor of mine successfully hunted elk for many years with garden variety Remington Core-Lokt ammo in his 30-06. He had a classy custom 1903 Springfield, maybe a Griffin & Howe.

Core lokt and powerpoints have killed mountains for elk. I always liked Barnes, but to each their own. I just always stayed away from the Berger’s and other target bullets. Too much fragmentation and I always worried about hunks of metal and lead in the meat. YMMV

TWENTY pages, and still flogging the horse...

These Damn Elk are getting more bullet proof as this thread goes on, maybe we should start treating them like Cape Buffalo. Rio7

Elk threads are always a hoot.

750 GR out of a Barret 50 caliber should do the trick. No reason to go under gunned…

Never had a problem killing them. Just a challenge finding them and getting inside gun range. Happy Trails

I see it this way, the bullet will be the final variable in the killing of an elk. It’s also one of the cheapest variables. As a handloader, say a box of 50 partitions costs $40 and a box of 100 Interlocks costs $40. Depending on how much you shoot for load development and practice, the difference in cost to get your rifle ready and the hunter practiced up might be another $40? Maybe $80? Is $80 too much to pay for more peace of mind that comes with the more predictable performance?

Even if we talk premium vs standard factory ammo, $60 a box vs $30 a box. Is an extra $30 a box not worth it? I think it’s still cheap vs the other variables in a hunt.

No, RIO7.......we're treating them more like Prairie Dogs!!!!

A few posts to get this place rolling again.

Please, take it easy on this common guy.

What column does that go under, in the database?

Senile rambling, maybe?

I bet nobody has said that a 180g Abond @ 3200 FPS is the Slim-Shady for Wapiti

🦫

Check them out on a Rockchuck first.

If it eventually dies.....you're good to go.

I've shot 2 bull elk and I shot both with a 30-06 using 150 gr bronze point ammo. DRT, best elk bullets ever for me. I'd use something different if I ever get the chance to elk hunt again, but you can't argue with success.

i just ordered a Brux barrel that will be a 7 1/2 twist chambered in 257 Weatherby Mag. and if it gets here in time i plan on using 128 gr. Hammer bullets ,i feel that size bullet should work just fine on a bull elk. i have killed bulls with my bow so i see no reason to bring a bigger rifle cartridge to hunt elk.

I flinch too much to be trying them on Rockchucks. I’m only good for one shot. Then I’m ruined.

🦫

Muzzle brake?


Send it to me.....I ain't a 'fraidy.

Have enough brow scar tissue.

One year.....a coyote came in during the late muzzle season......and I mistakenly settled into a varmint-rifle light grasp. The .54 Knight (mounted with Leupold) caught me square in the middle of the forehead.

Tough to walk out with salty blood in the eyes, even when you wipe them.

My in-laws called me Cyclops, all during Christmas.

Nice guy like me, imagine that.

Mike , You Are living proof, you can't fix STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!! Rio7

I did the same with a guys 257 Roy on a yote.

I looked at the smallish sized cartridge when I threw a round in the chamber. Pfft…Not a problem.

Laid it across the hood of his truck, light hold on a dog out in his pasture…Crack - Thump against my face. Blood 🩸

Missed the dog, too.

LOL

🦫

Please try to fix me, RIO7. Off topic......you get that high fence fixed yet?

Don't give up on me, RIO!

We ain't afraid of laughing at ourselves, Beaver.



The ultra-educated internet experts, on the other hand.....a lil' bit different.

Scared to death of some sort of challenge.

If you ever run across somebody worthy of a challenge, tell them about these threads.

It would be fun.

Actually like you, SLM.........in a little brother, big dummy.........sort of way.

I went on my first elk hunt in 1978. A friend asked me if I wanted to go hunting, so I bought a 700ADL 30-06 because it was cheap. I put a cheap scope on it and went to the range to sight it in. I also bought some Federal Premium 150 grain Sierra Game kings. That's a common cup and core bullet as you probably know. I killed a couple dozen elk with that load and then someone told me that elk wear armor plating and that you need premium bullets. So I started using 180 grain Nosler Partitions and eventually went to 180 grain TSX.

Gee I hope that none of those early elk come back to life because I didn't use premium bullets. That would be embarrassing.

Some would have us believe the 150 grain Sierra is inadequate for deer, let alone elk. Nevertheless my father killed many deer one shot each with that bullet on top of 52 grains of 4064 in his 30-06. A 700 ADL by the way.

I’ll bet you don’t even carrying home insurance…….or a spare tire (other than your mid section).

You’d likely laugh at anyone with a plug kit and 12V compressor.

The “hope for the best, prepare for the worst” crowd are all idiots in your eyes, right?

You’re cool, mathman. Smart too!

Your logic is skewed a little because you are comparing having something vs nothing.

Perhaps it would be more comparable to use the analogy of the 12v compressor vs carrying a generator and 20 gal air compressor in the trunk of your car incase you get a flat. now if I had flat tires every day I might opt for the generator and big compressor. if it's a once every other year then the 12v is all I need. FYI if you're having flat tires all the time perhaps the problem lies elsewhere from what you are using to air them up
Same can be said for premium bullets, yeah they'll work great, but if you know your rifle and can use it well it's very rare you'll have to hinge the recovery of your quarry on the type of bullet you are using.

Well, of course my logic was skewed!

A tire is on a truck…..and not a living creature I am trying to quickly kill.

You have all the intelligence of mathman.

So……’works most of the time’ is OK?

Do you work for the Post Office, by chance?

Do 'premium' bullets work ALL the time???

Mikey, where the hell you been?

We’ve missed your uneducated opinions.

Did the wife let you borrow her grocery getter to make a road trip to whip somebody’s ass?

Still trying to find you some gloss brown polish, but between COVID and the LGBTQ community, gloss brown is pretty hard to find right now.

I be back again soon.

You and smokepole……..let the experts know.

Is there any advantage in them, that you can see?

I didn't say "works most of the time" but I can see how someone of your intellect could take it that way. I was under the impression you were advocating to use premium bullets for the off chance the only shot presentation was poor and you had to power through more muscle and bone in order to reach vital organs. I didn't know you depend on premium bullets to make up for poor shooting, although I did allude to it a little in the event that was the case I apologize for not being more obvious. Seeing you are from Iowa it makes perfect sense now. (I typed this really slow to make it easier to read)
I agree, in your case I would definitely use premium bullets if you aren't sure where they are going to hit the animal you are flinging them at.

Holy Cow! Kinda feel like we just got took to the woodshed!

As a bowhunter........I avoid the front shoulder like I do California.

But.......check the comic books.......there are lungs behind those front shoulders.

Broadheads + heavy bone = bad.

Light, frangible bullets + heavy bone = bad.

Things can sometimes happen........especially when a chubster actually has to leave the truck/ATV/UTV. Not having a window pad and having to heave for air can affect things.

But, what does an Iowan really know, anyway?

Was recently informed rifles could not be used for deer in Iowa. Hope we've reached the legal limitations on all those 'irregularities' in the past.

Not employed by the Post Office, then? Another government job perhaps?

If unemployed.......rumor has it the cookbook publishers are hiring.

Well dang, and I always thought the lungs were between the back shoulders.

You're reading the wrong comic books.......and then just looking at the pictures.

Your knowledge of animal physiology is exceeded only by you grasp of Newtonian physics.

Please indicate any of 'me' errors at physics.

Think carefully, very carefully.



Geniuses and experts.....

Waiting!!!!!!

Where is south Texan?

Just when things were getting interesting......physics-wise.

You have to type really slow for Mikey.

That buzzed over his head at mach 2.

I'll never forget the little man......

Like I said, I have that affect on women.

Thank your lucky stars you found one that didn't want to forget the little man.

Most did.....

A guy I used to work with went to South Africa about 8 or 10 years ago on a plains game hunt. He is a great shot and cool headed. He killed 17 head of game (including a 1400lb. Eland) with 19 shots. He used a Blaser 30/06 rented from the PH. His ammo? Regular old plain Jane green and yellow box 165 grain Core-Lokt Remington.

Ron

In my Limited experience ,I don't consider Nosler Partitions a Premium bullet, I use them as a Standard, to compare other bullets to. I have killed elk with Remington corelokts so nothing special is required.

I gave you a day to continue your edits as more clever stuff popped in to your cranium, I understand you are a little slow.

There’s some of us that don’t have to overcompensate for anything. Then there are those that have to overcompensate for everything.

Pretty obvious where you fall.

It's been a few days, I'm missing that crafty wordsmithing and razor sharp wit lol.

I've been missing that since the beginning of this thread......

Given that the ammo is so little the cost of the hunt, no reason to cut cost on the bullet.

This is the key point. Even if you're broke as hell, a handful of bullets in any reasonable caliber are cheap compared to the tag. Then you have other expenses.

Premium bullets - especially high weight retention lead designs - work better and help prevent game loss. They're a good thing and people should use them for large animals including elk.

I don't get this line of thinking: I have done something this way therefore nothing special (here: premium bullet) is needed. Based upon your experience then but what is the sample size of that experience and what were the variables associated with the sample? All broadside shots at undisturbed animals grazing unaware of your presence 100 yards away? Or making tracks away from you through heavy timber? Across a canyon at 400 yards? Can you be more specific?

An F150 is only $2500 less than an F350 and my uncle had to pull a big trailer one time 25 years ago so I’d better have the one ton just in case…..

The argument that even “premium” bullets are inexpensive and therefor should be used is irrelevant in that it assumes “non-premium” bullets are inadequate in the first place. What’s a “premium” bullet anyways, and what does the word have to do with the supposed ideal performance? Is a Matchking a premium bullet? How about a Barnes TTSX, Scenar or a Berger? Do they all share the same desired characteristics that make a premium bullets supposedly successful and cup cores “non-premiums” not successful? Confusing considering many of these bullets aren’t even labeled “premium”. Where I live you can get OTC elk tags, the VAST majority of folks just buy Remington, Federal blue box or Winchester powerpoints and if you ask, many couldn’t tell you what a premium bullet is. What’s on the shelf and inexpensive is most likely going to dictate what they use. I can’t even imagine how many thousands of elk over the years have been killed up here by “non-premium” bullets. On threads like this it’s always those who criticize are the same ones that have never done it, and those who haven’t done it, blame the cartridge or the bullet on failures they never experienced.

I love it when a guy tells me what kind of bullet I should use.

It’s for your own good. If you haven’t been using said bullets then you have been doing it wrong. It’s amazing that anything gets killed these days with all the wrong bullets being used.

You should probably make that a duel wheel in case you ever buy a 45’ gooseneck.

You’re both ignorant of current truck prices…..along with a few thousand other things.

By all means, take your PT Cruisers up for that mountain elk hunt.

If it worked once…..who could ever challenge the validity?

Certainly not someone who has never owned a PT!

Mikey, you keep stepping on your dick. ( you must have really short legs.)

I just might have some real recent experience pricing trucks, but that’s irrelevant in the conversation. The point went over your head at Mach 2.

Made any road trips in the wife’s grocery getter lately? Maybe someday she’ll let you get your own.