John you stated in the thread, ".30'06 didn't impress me":
"But have also used plenty of Bergers. If you use them enough to understand how they work, and place them accordingly, on average they have killed big game quicker than any other bullet used, including Interlocks and Ballistic Tips."
Could you expound on this please?

Berger Berger Hunting VLDs typically penetrate a couple inches before they start expanding, while most bullets start expanding as soon as they hit hide. This means HVLDs typically get through the ribs, or even the shoulder blade, before they open--and when they do open, they expand violently, often coming just about completely apart, resulting in massive damage to the internal organs. This results in very quick kills, and also a higher percentage of instant drops from behind-the-shoulder shots than any other bullet I've used, or seen used.

But unless very heavy, they don't penetrate deeply on angling shots.

Might post a photo later.

Accubond and interlock. Skip the berger. Got a 6.5x300 that shoots a 156 extremely good. Not so great while hunting. In and out. I gave that bullet about 20 kills worth of a chance. Load up some interlocks and it hit them like lightning and flattens them. My experience. Mule deer gets it. Shoot a dang interlock or accubond and walk to where they stood. I did get a little better performance in the 06 with a berger, but the interlock performed better for me. They are the most consistent bullet I've ever used.

Joe,

Coyote10 didn't comprehend my point. In fact, dunno what he means by "In and out," unless he means bullets are more effective when they exit. I have not found this to be true, and in fact have yet to encounter an expanding big game bullet that always exits.

Generally those that result in more internal damage kill quicker--and those that lose some weight tend to do that. Here's an example of the internal damage Bergers do, the reason they kill so quickly.

This New Zealand red stag was about the size of the typical 5x5 elk. The rifle is my Ultra Light Arms .30-06, and the bullet the 168 Berger Hunting VLD loaded to around 2850 fps. The stag was bedded, broadside, on a hillside across a canyon about 250 yards away. The bullet landed just behind the shoulder. At the shot the stag didn't even try to rise, just tipped its head back, then rolled downhill a little. The other photo is of what the bullet did to the heart: It was essentially turned into a thin flap.

Have seen this sort of thing--both the very quick kill, and massive internal damage--happen over and over again with various Berger Hunting VLDs from .25 to .30 caliber, on far more than 20 animals. Do I think they're the best hunting bullet ever? No, but I don't think ANY bullet is the best hunting bullet ever. There are a bunch of good ones these days, which work in various ways--but they all work, if you understand how they differ in performance.

Amen

Coyote10 didn't comprehend my point. In fact, dunno what he means by "In and out"

Have seen this sort of thing--both the very quick kill, and massive internal damage--happen over and over again with various Berger Hunting VLDs from .25 to .30 caliber, on far more than 20 animals. Do I think they're the best hunting bullet ever? No, but I don't think ANY bullet is the best hunting bullet ever. There are a bunch of good ones these days, which work in various ways--but they all work, if you understand how they differ in performance.

Hard to argue with success. But I'm not here to argue with anyone, just share experiences. My experience, is I get better results with certain bullets than others, and I certainly understand how they work. I have killed 20 animals (deer) in one week with various bullets. Believe me, I know. And by in and out, I mean in and out with little damage and hands and knees blood trailing just to find I popped both lungs and the the deer ran until it was expired. I know that's how it's supposed to work, but I'm talking little hole in, little internal damage, and little hole out. Only seen that with hunting vlds. When I shoot them with the interlock, the shock and hemorrhaging is massive. With that said, I think after countless kills over the years, I've came to the conclusion on which bullet I'm closing my bolt on.

And as far as penetrating a couple inches before opening up like a berger is supposed to, a boring old flat based interlock will do that out of an 06 every single time. I comprehend my friend. Those massive trauma vld experiences usually result in a hit bone somewhere along the line. But like I said before, thats what I prefer. My opinion only.

“But unless very heavy, they don't penetrate deeply on angling shots.”


JB, please clarify for me, “but unless very heavy” Heavier than typical Whitetail, Muley, etc?

Reason I ask is, I’m almost out of my old standby, 180 gr Partitions (and can’t find any) but I have an ample supply of 168 gr VLDs for 30.06 and an Elk/Muley hunt combo coming up. Do I stay away from quartering shots on a Muley but okay on an elk w VLDs???

Far be it from me to put words in MD's mouth, but i believe he meant "unless the VLD bullet is very heavy, it won't penetrate deeply on angling shots".

^^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^ memtb

John:
As point of comparison, have you used Lapua Scenar bullets? If so, how does their performance and mode of action differ, if any, from that of the VLD ?

Well that may work for me as I have 185VLDs, if that qualifies as “very heavy”?!?!

Just me, but the 220 Scenars from a 30 Nosler/300 RUM and the 139's from a 6.5 Creed and 6.5 PRC have acted more like a Ballistic Tip or semi tough cup and core bullet (normal entrances, 1.5"-2" exits on deer and bear). Sorry, I have 0 experience with the Bergers to compare them to.

Yeah, it is your opinion only. The soft-nosed or plastic-tipped expanding bullets I have tested in various kinds of media and animals (including plenty of Interlocks) have started expanding immediately upon contacting hide--and usually fully expand before the bullet penetrates its own length. Very few conventional big game bullets are longer than about 1-1/2 inches. So if you're talking about how it takes Interlocks a couple inches to START to expand, then you don't know what you're talking about. It may take them a couple inches to completely expand, but that is NOT the same thing.

The reason Bergers don't start to expand until well AFTER they hit hide is the nose--which isn't actually a hollow-point. Instead the tip is usually closed so much, it's impossible to stick a sewing needle through the hole. The inside of the jacket behind the tip is hollow, meaning there's an air-space of at least 1/4" in front of the lead core, and often more. As a result, the very sharp (and closed) tip punches through the skin and first couple inches of whatever's behind it--whether muscle, lung tissue, ribs or even somewhat heavier bone--like a knitting needle. This often results in an entry hole so tiny that the hair must be parted to find it--the reason the photo of the red stag doesn't show an obvious entrance hole behind its shoulder--and that's the side I shot.

Unless a Berger hits extremely heavy bone right behind the hide, it takes a couple inches for the sharp point to collapse. It does NOT "mushroom" outward like typical soft-point, plastic-tipped or hollow-point bullet, but collapses like an empty aluminum can being crushed. At that point the bullet often disintegrates into shreds of lead and jacket, the "shrapnel" that causes the massive internal damage. Though sometimes, if the bullet's velocity has dropped enough, occasionally the rear of the core will be found inside the rear of the jacket--which is what most hunters consider "appropriate" expansion.

In 2007 several companions and I went to New Zealand to thoroughly field-test Berger VLDs on the often over-abundant non-native animals that infest the islands. The Bergers used ranged from 115-grain .25s to 185-grain .30s, and the cartridges included the .257 Roberts, .264 Winchester Magnum, .30-06 and .300 Winchester Magnum. They were tested on feral goats and sheep, plus fallow deer and red deer at ranges out to over 550 yards, and the ONLY bullet recovered that had any core remaining in the rear of the jacket was a 140-grain 6.5mm on a mature billy goat taken at around 500 yards. Even then, the lead-filled "shank" was only at most 1/4" long--and the goat didn't fall nearly as quickly as those where the bullet "disintegrated."

In fact when we first started hunting it took a while to get a handle on how fast the Bergers killed on typical broadside, behind-the-shoulder rib shots. This was because the bullets often hit the spine or part of the shoulder. But eventually my wife managed to make a "pure" rib shot on a big billy goat at 200 yards with the 115-grain .25 VLD. The goat was standing on a steep hillside, and at the shot collapsed and rolled down the hill, apparently immediately dead.

We then carefully necropsied the goat--which first required finding the entrance hole, which was so tiny it could have been made by a knitting needle. The hole through the rib behind the skin was a little bigger, but still not more than .25". Only when we opened the chest cavity was there any damage of the kind usually found with expanding bullets--which as with the red stag was massive.
This performance was consistent thoughout the testing--including one fallow deer female my wife took with a head-shot, as requested by the lodge's cook. The entrance hole was was tiny, even though skull-bone was right underneath the hide, but the exit hole was around an inch in diameter.

This matches the results from various kinds of test media--including clear ballistic gelation, which reveals exactly how and when bullets expand during slow-motion video. The results were also the same in the wax Test Tube, which retains the shape of the wound channel. I may show post some Test Tube photos here, which compare the wound channels of "standard" bullets with Bergers.

All together we took more animals with than Bergers than the 20 you've taken. And all of us have used Bergers elsewhere, again considerably.

I've never recovered a berger that retained lead in the jacket, shoot your berger my friend, I'm glad you found something you like. I did with an interlock and accubond. It's all about what fits each person's need. And the 20 animals were in one week of hunting. I lost count on the deer taken with various bullets over the years. Those 20 were with a 6.5 156 elite hunter and they weren't so elite in my experience.

Here's a photo of two Test Tubes, showing the difference in how a soft-point bullet expands, and a Berger expands. The top Test Tube was shot with a soft-point bullet, and the bottom one with a Berger of the same diameter and weight. Its obvious that the soft-point started expanding immediately upon hitting the wax, and the Berger didn't start to open until it had penetrated some.

John, I for one would certainly enjoy seeing those photos! One question, how was the meat damage with the Bergers? Especially thinking bloodshot meat. Thanks

Edit, oops, se the pictures. Thanks!

You beat my posting of the photos by a little!

One of the interesting things about Bergers is that unless you shoot them into the thicker muscles, there's just about no meat damage around the entrance hole--or the exit hole, IF they exit. (They often don't.)

A good example is a pronghorn buck I took at a lasered 162 yards with the 6.5 140-grain VLD, from a 6.5-06. Eileen and I like pronghorn as much as any wild game, but often some shoulder meat is lost even when a typical expanding bullet lands behind the shoulders. I've even seen it happen with Barnes TTSXs at closer ranges, and monolithics generally damage noticeably less meat than lead-cores.

But in this instance I placed the Berger about a hands-width behind the shoulder, and not only was there the typical Berger knitting-needle hole through the ribs, but the bullet exited, leaving about a 1" hole in the far ribs. The knitting-needle and 1" hole through the ribs were the extent of the "meat damage," with nothing blood-shot.

Great information

Have been looking for some Berger 270 cal 170gr to try in my 1:8 I have coming. Have not found any yet.

In a 1:10 twist 270 WCF, what Berger would you suggest for deer/antelope size game?

Thats an impressive test and good to have a visual. But look how the berger stopped and the soft point kept on going. But as fas as design, looks like the berger lived up to it. But it's clear that the soft point out did it in that particular test. Larger wound channel, larger exit, and better penetration. At the end of the day, nothing is surviving that.

Very educational posts JB. Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed assessment. Learned a lot here in VT.

Of course Bergers don't penetrate as deeply as more conventional bullets. If penetration were the only (or even major) criteria for big game bullets, then we'd all be using solids.

But the interior damage on animals from Berger's far more violent than the photo indicates (take a look at the stag's heart again), and bullets do NOT have to exit to kill well. In fact, as I mentioned earlier bullets that lose more weight tend to kill quicker, because of more damage to internal organs.

No, nothing would survive either bullet--but none of the New Zealand animals did either, and they dropped quicker than when shot with conventional bullets, even those that also have a reputation for killing quicker than average, such as Hornady Interlocks and Nosler Ballistic Tips.

I keep detailed notes on all my big game kills, and those of hunting partners--including how far animals taken with heart-lung shots travel before falling. Since that trip in 2007 the animals shot with Bergers have traveled post-shot less than any other bullet, and Bergers also have the highest percentage of instant drops with lung shots. Next are lead-cores of various designs, while animals shot similarly with "monolithics" average the farthest, around 2-1/2 times as far as with Bergers.

Like many hunters you're judging Berger bullets by conventional standards--which includes your opinion of ideal bullet performance. While I have my favorites among big game bullets, all of them work in different ways--including some monolithics.

My job involves testing all the bullets possible, both in media and the field, so I try to look at their performance objectively, and explain the differences. Which is what I did here--because that's what Joe asked me to answer.

JB, OUTSTANDING POST.
Spoken from experience and proof, not just opinion,
Thanks

Most educational thread. Thanks to all that have contributed. I had jumped to erroneous assumptions about Bergers without having taken time to actually learn how they are designed. I might give 'em a try.

JB, I remember your writing about the Bergers quite a while ago. Bought the first edition of Rifle Bullets For The Hunter, with all those great signatures inside. Great book, very informative and useful even though the copyright is 2006. My three mule deer in 2008, 2009 all fell instantly to the 115 grain Berger VLD's from my 25-06 rifle at about 175, 230, and 400 yards. In each case I saw what you described: small entrance hole and massive internal damage.

I recovered only one of those, it had broken both shoulder blades on a young muley buck at 175 yards and the bullet was found under the off-side skin. It was pretty ragged, but almost a mushroom shape to just the jacket. Sadly I left the bullet on a rock and packed the deer out, up to my truck.

I like to mess with different bullets though, so after that it was quite a while before I used Bergers again for hunting. My 2021 muley at 350 yards was taken with Berger's 180 grain Elite Hunter and my 30-06 rifle. It too had the same results, instant drop and massive damage inside the chest cavity.

I'm certainly impressed with their lethality on mule deer. Probably ought to get around to shooting something bigger with them someday.



Regards, Guy

Appreciate this thread, thank you to JB and others

That's where I'm guilty, never shot anything bigger that a mulie with a berger. Biggest bodied one was probably a 280 to 290 pound deer on the hoof. Shot one one day standing on a point where two canyons met, bullet went in and exited into the opposite side of the canyon, seen the dirt fly. Deer took off. Buddy thought I missed as the deer ran like his ass was on fire. Made it to the other side halfway up and flipped over dead. Shot was laced right behind the shoulder into the lungs.
Shot a doe last year at about 600. Hit right in the shoulder. Deer jumped up in the air and hobbled about 20 yards and laid down. Walked back to the truck, put my stuff up and got a knife. In about a 30 minute time frame, I walked up to the deer laying down looking at me. I went back to get my rifle, came back and she was dead. Bullet went in, smashed the tar out of the shoulder upon entry, then did not exit. Big deal, but the trauma wasn't very extensive. Good enough to incapacitate a 100 pound doe though. I used a 6.5x300 weatherby with 156 elite hunters. Lots of powder and horsepower there. Heavy, high BC bullet. Least me wondering.

Shot another doe at about 250, right behind the shoulder, right at dark. Deer ran about 200 yards and made it to some trees. Went another 100 yards with no blood trail to speak of until I luckily stumbled on her laying in some cedars. Bullet went in and out with little damage. So, maybe my experience with high capacity cartridges and bergers is a fluke, but I'm done with them in big, fast cartridges. Now with all that being said, I've shot a box of 500 berger 140 hunting vlds out of a 6.5x06 at coyotes and deer, and they hammered. I was running them at 2900 out of a stainless shilen 1:8 select match. Liked that load. Bergers got scarce or hard to get there for a while and I grabbed a box of interlocks and to my actual surprise, I liked them better. Many animals, mostly deer and coyotes have been taken by myself with various calibers and bullets. I too, speak from experience. Each person likes different things. That's why there is a variety of things available that each person can take advantage of.

They work until they don't. I had multiple bullets fail in a row. I documented it and sent pictures of the recovered bullets which didn't open whatsoever to berger and got done sorry about how some percentage of bullets will fail. I've never seen or heard of problems with accubonds or eld-ms.

Here's 2 of the 5 I had fail. I can't find pictures of the 1 other I recovered. 2 made pass through with 0 expansion and the animals were killed with other guns.

I have never used the Elite Hunters, and all of the Bergers I used were made when Walt still owned the company.

The original Hunting VLD was the bullet previously called the Match VLD, which some hunters had used in the field and reported very good results. Walt decided to run some field tests, and they worked very well, both in the U.S. and places such as New Zealand. So the name was changed to the Hunting VLD, and they started putting them in orange boxes used today.

At the same time they developed a thicker-jacketed bullet for target shooting, called (naturally enough) Target VLDs--because as some barrels started to erode the thinner jackets of the Match/Hunting VLDs didn't hold up. This seemed counter-intuitive to many hunters, but the thinner jacket models expanded more easily, the reason they worked so well. In fact, one of my friends in Texas claimed that he'd been using the heavier-jacketed Target VLDs for hunting whitetails, out of a .308 Winchester--which I questioned. He contacted me again shortly afterward, saying I was right: What he'd been using were Match VLDs, not Target VLDs--but the somewhat similar meanings of the two words had him confused.

Have no idea whether the present Berger Company decided to thicken the jackets of the Elite Hunters, or even the Hunting VLDs. But the Match VLDs and Hunting VLDs I've been using (all made before Walt sold the company) expanded readily. The VLDs that Dioni is showing next to the yellow plastic boxes might be the Target VLDs with the heavier jackets, but can't tell because all of the labels aren't visible. But the Hunting VLDs have been packaged in orange boxes since before 2010.

I noticed the yellow boxes too. Orange boxes is all I ever used.

They're orange boxes but the label is yellow. 168 classic hunters. Had to zoom in a bunch because I couldn't get the resolution low enough to post it otherwise.

Thanks for the additional info.

This is a point to consider when selecting a handgun bullet for defensive purposes.

Ya'll read that last sentence over and over then read the entire post again. This is why I consider JB the ONLY modern gun writer even close to O'Connor, Petzal is only on small step below.