Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Calling JB (Mule Deer)

Very educational posts JB. Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed assessment. Learned a lot here in VT.

Of course Bergers don't penetrate as deeply as more conventional bullets. If penetration were the only (or even major) criteria for big game bullets, then we'd all be using solids.

But the interior damage on animals from Berger's far more violent than the photo indicates (take a look at the stag's heart again), and bullets do NOT have to exit to kill well. In fact, as I mentioned earlier bullets that lose more weight tend to kill quicker, because of more damage to internal organs.

No, nothing would survive either bullet--but none of the New Zealand animals did either, and they dropped quicker than when shot with conventional bullets, even those that also have a reputation for killing quicker than average, such as Hornady Interlocks and Nosler Ballistic Tips.

I keep detailed notes on all my big game kills, and those of hunting partners--including how far animals taken with heart-lung shots travel before falling. Since that trip in 2007 the animals shot with Bergers have traveled post-shot less than any other bullet, and Bergers also have the highest percentage of instant drops with lung shots. Next are lead-cores of various designs, while animals shot similarly with "monolithics" average the farthest, around 2-1/2 times as far as with Bergers.

Like many hunters you're judging Berger bullets by conventional standards--which includes your opinion of ideal bullet performance. While I have my favorites among big game bullets, all of them work in different ways--including some monolithics.

My job involves testing all the bullets possible, both in media and the field, so I try to look at their performance objectively, and explain the differences. Which is what I did here--because that's what Joe asked me to answer.

JB, OUTSTANDING POST.
Spoken from experience and proof, not just opinion,
Thanks

Most educational thread. Thanks to all that have contributed. I had jumped to erroneous assumptions about Bergers without having taken time to actually learn how they are designed. I might give 'em a try.

JB, I remember your writing about the Bergers quite a while ago. Bought the first edition of Rifle Bullets For The Hunter, with all those great signatures inside. Great book, very informative and useful even though the copyright is 2006. My three mule deer in 2008, 2009 all fell instantly to the 115 grain Berger VLD's from my 25-06 rifle at about 175, 230, and 400 yards. In each case I saw what you described: small entrance hole and massive internal damage.

I recovered only one of those, it had broken both shoulder blades on a young muley buck at 175 yards and the bullet was found under the off-side skin. It was pretty ragged, but almost a mushroom shape to just the jacket. Sadly I left the bullet on a rock and packed the deer out, up to my truck.

I like to mess with different bullets though, so after that it was quite a while before I used Bergers again for hunting. My 2021 muley at 350 yards was taken with Berger's 180 grain Elite Hunter and my 30-06 rifle. It too had the same results, instant drop and massive damage inside the chest cavity.

I'm certainly impressed with their lethality on mule deer. Probably ought to get around to shooting something bigger with them someday.



Regards, Guy

Appreciate this thread, thank you to JB and others

That's where I'm guilty, never shot anything bigger that a mulie with a berger. Biggest bodied one was probably a 280 to 290 pound deer on the hoof. Shot one one day standing on a point where two canyons met, bullet went in and exited into the opposite side of the canyon, seen the dirt fly. Deer took off. Buddy thought I missed as the deer ran like his ass was on fire. Made it to the other side halfway up and flipped over dead. Shot was laced right behind the shoulder into the lungs.
Shot a doe last year at about 600. Hit right in the shoulder. Deer jumped up in the air and hobbled about 20 yards and laid down. Walked back to the truck, put my stuff up and got a knife. In about a 30 minute time frame, I walked up to the deer laying down looking at me. I went back to get my rifle, came back and she was dead. Bullet went in, smashed the tar out of the shoulder upon entry, then did not exit. Big deal, but the trauma wasn't very extensive. Good enough to incapacitate a 100 pound doe though. I used a 6.5x300 weatherby with 156 elite hunters. Lots of powder and horsepower there. Heavy, high BC bullet. Least me wondering.

Shot another doe at about 250, right behind the shoulder, right at dark. Deer ran about 200 yards and made it to some trees. Went another 100 yards with no blood trail to speak of until I luckily stumbled on her laying in some cedars. Bullet went in and out with little damage. So, maybe my experience with high capacity cartridges and bergers is a fluke, but I'm done with them in big, fast cartridges. Now with all that being said, I've shot a box of 500 berger 140 hunting vlds out of a 6.5x06 at coyotes and deer, and they hammered. I was running them at 2900 out of a stainless shilen 1:8 select match. Liked that load. Bergers got scarce or hard to get there for a while and I grabbed a box of interlocks and to my actual surprise, I liked them better. Many animals, mostly deer and coyotes have been taken by myself with various calibers and bullets. I too, speak from experience. Each person likes different things. That's why there is a variety of things available that each person can take advantage of.

They work until they don't. I had multiple bullets fail in a row. I documented it and sent pictures of the recovered bullets which didn't open whatsoever to berger and got done sorry about how some percentage of bullets will fail. I've never seen or heard of problems with accubonds or eld-ms.

Here's 2 of the 5 I had fail. I can't find pictures of the 1 other I recovered. 2 made pass through with 0 expansion and the animals were killed with other guns.

I have never used the Elite Hunters, and all of the Bergers I used were made when Walt still owned the company.

The original Hunting VLD was the bullet previously called the Match VLD, which some hunters had used in the field and reported very good results. Walt decided to run some field tests, and they worked very well, both in the U.S. and places such as New Zealand. So the name was changed to the Hunting VLD, and they started putting them in orange boxes used today.

At the same time they developed a thicker-jacketed bullet for target shooting, called (naturally enough) Target VLDs--because as some barrels started to erode the thinner jackets of the Match/Hunting VLDs didn't hold up. This seemed counter-intuitive to many hunters, but the thinner jacket models expanded more easily, the reason they worked so well. In fact, one of my friends in Texas claimed that he'd been using the heavier-jacketed Target VLDs for hunting whitetails, out of a .308 Winchester--which I questioned. He contacted me again shortly afterward, saying I was right: What he'd been using were Match VLDs, not Target VLDs--but the somewhat similar meanings of the two words had him confused.

Have no idea whether the present Berger Company decided to thicken the jackets of the Elite Hunters, or even the Hunting VLDs. But the Match VLDs and Hunting VLDs I've been using (all made before Walt sold the company) expanded readily. The VLDs that Dioni is showing next to the yellow plastic boxes might be the Target VLDs with the heavier jackets, but can't tell because all of the labels aren't visible. But the Hunting VLDs have been packaged in orange boxes since before 2010.

I noticed the yellow boxes too. Orange boxes is all I ever used.

They're orange boxes but the label is yellow. 168 classic hunters. Had to zoom in a bunch because I couldn't get the resolution low enough to post it otherwise.

Thanks for the additional info.

This is a point to consider when selecting a handgun bullet for defensive purposes.

Ya'll read that last sentence over and over then read the entire post again. This is why I consider JB the ONLY modern gun writer even close to O'Connor, Petzal is only on small step below.