going to coloardo on a elk hunt would the .308 win be enough ?

any bets how long this thread gets? I think we're boared with the discussion and it only gets 3 pages long.

Nosler partitions... shot placement...

I have to preface this with "I have zero experience with elk".

I did shoot a fairly large whitetail this year with a 150 grain TSX on top of 46 grains of Varget. The bullet went in behind one shoulder and stopped in the offside shoulder (I guess).

There was only one hole in the deer/hide. Until then, I thought sure it would penetrate enough for an elk. shot was 70 yards. i load everything "just in case" I get to go elk hunting I'll be ready.

This is a one time example, just trying to provide factual occurence for your digestion. All the bucks I've shot with .308 have died, but, within the last 3 years I've had failure to exit on 2 bucks. the other round was a 165 Hornady BTSP. YMMV.

just trying to give examples of actual game performance, not energy tables that look the "almost" the same. I bought a bigger gun (.300 RSAUM) FWIW. good luck

Yes. Plenty.

I have only killed 15 elk, so take my advice with a grain of salt. A good thirty caliber bullet through the vitals at a reasonable range will have no problems.

well put. i was only trying to share...

No slam intended, I promise. Too many people think elk wear kevlar. A .308 caliber projectile with an impact velocity of 2200 fps doesn't know if it was shot from a .300 Savage or a .300 Weatherby.

I have seen a few hundred elk killed through the years and would rather have a client with a 308 that can shoot it well, than one with a magnum cal. that is afraid of the gun and does not practice. Your .308 with 165 gr or 180 gr. bullets will work great. Sight in dead on at 200 yds, but know where the gun is shooting to 300 to 350 yds. Practice with your 308 and have a good elk hunt. Daryl.

For the sake of argument (eh, why not?) the .308 might not be the best suited for long shots at really bad angles. There, I said it.

For going out and taking an elk at a reasonable distance when presented with anything resembling a good shot; get a nice and steady hold, remember to squeeze and not jerk the trigger, send a quality projectile into the anatomically correct area and go collect said critter. The .308 will do fine for this purpose.

That last paragraph pretty well sums it up!

By the way, even though this same question is asked and answered around here at least 10 times per year, I've shot several elk with 308s. All died and ate quite well, as long as the procedure described in the last paragraph above is strictly followed.

as i have posted before, i have a bud in missoula, mt. who kills elk every year (and he has taken at least 23) with his 308 and 180 gr corelokts. your rifle is up to the task. good hunting.

ive had 13 elk killed this year, by hunters 12 with 308 1 with 270, all were 200 yrd + shots all hunters were ladys, dont worry about your 308, it'll work.by the way they were all 1 shot kills.

High fence?

25000 acres high fence, all 1 pasture,

I once shot a cow elk with a 308 and 165 trophy bonded bear claws. She laughed and walked it off.





Oh wait, actually she tipped over backwards DRT. The bear claw exited too.

165 gr Hornady bt interloc Blr 308, 245 yds, dead elk ,happy elk shooter.

I've seen elk shake off 308 rounds like bee stings.

Seriously, I visit this forum once and a while...it's the same thing over and over. Like listening to a broken record or watching the same movie.

If the whimpy cartridges (.270 win...25-06...280...7-08...30-06...260...243...etc) will do it. Well, I say no more.

YES, YES, YES! Topic should be banned! A modern 308 is superior to a 30-40 Krag or a pre WW II 30-06. Any idea how many 1000s of Elk were killed by them?
Stick a 168 TSX a CCI 250 and as much Varget as you dare it it and it will go through both shoulders of an Elk and keep on flying.

Of course you can, but I've never done it. I have killed them with a .30-06 and a .270 Win.

I really can't tell much difference between them and an'06.

They worked fine in my tiny sample.

I have only killed two elk with 308's. Been around ten or so more killed with them.

One with a 165 grain Sierra, elk was moving, about 125 yards out. It went 65 yards in an arc and fell on it's side

The other with a 150 grain Power Point. I got a little high and broke it's back.

I started using an '06 after those and now use a .338 most of the time.

My grandfather hunted in the old days when you could do stuff that you'd be ticketed for today.

He figured he'd killed around 100 elk in his lifetime. 30-30, 308, 25-06 were the guns he used and all he ever shot was factory core-lokts. He even stopped a charging grizzly with the 308, but that is another story.

I'd like to hear that story, no sarcasm, I'd really like to hear that story.

Run what you brung.......I just would suggest using a premium bullet for a bit more certainty........



Casey

Zactly what I say..

See my post below some about 308 vs cow elk.

I just made a one shot kill on a cow elk at 200 meters. I used a Sierra 165 SBT at 2800 fps.

The bullet pasted all the way through the body including the HEART!

It was a perfect shot with a very accurate custom built rifle with a 6.5X20 Leupold.

If I had been hunting a Trophy Bull, I would have been using a 7 Mag or .338 just because I have them.

Shot placement, as always, is very, very important.

After dozens of threads just like this, I begin to wonder where the notion that elk are as tough as elephants started. I mean, why do people even have to ask if a general-purpose .30 caliber big game round is enough?

Among my acquaintances for several years was a former outfitter who operated in Montana's Bob Marshall Wilderness. His ONLY big game rifle for several decades, up until the time he died, was a Savage 99 in .30-30. He killed his last elk with it at age 80, a big 6x6--and with one shot. He also took 5 grizzlies with the rifle and said he never had a problem.

Yet somehow a cartridge that essentially duplicates the .30-06 is considered sort of wimpy for anythung bigger than whitetails.

I know what you mean.

You have to wonder if these Walmart-nimrods have any business in the hunting fields.


"Will a 308 work for elk?"

DUH!!!

JB,

Very well put.

John I feel that it started with gun writers and too much reading and too lil experience by those writers. IMO many of the writers especially during the 70's,80's and such loved to write about the use of bigger guns for those raking shots and all that load of crap!

You've been the exception, near as I can tell I've not read an article by you that has eluded to such nonsense. But then again you're not what I would call the typical gun writer. And that my friend is a compliment!

You love to hunt, you do a lot of it and you also write very well and for all I know you may love to write. But, I see too many gun writers that write about things they have no business doing so. No doubt they may be given the assignment but I don't feel they do the topics the proper justice. (they're probably set up to fail, or at least those more experienced will see it that way, and others less experienced will never know the diff)

Then there's what I call the gun store BG (ballistic gack) and this happens at parties during the holidays, at the gun range and where ever men congregate to cuss and discuss life.

Much of what is said at these impromtu meets is done with people totally talking out of their azz. Bottom line, they really don't have enough experience with said topic to be spouting about. But they do and people with less experience have a perpencity to suck it up like the gospel.

There are some people that are members of what I call the 50/50 club. These guys, like you, Ingwe and myself are all over 50 years old and and been in and around the taking of 50 head of elk. We've been there enough and bought the t-shirt to know what's bS and what isn't.

The last thing that IMO can lead to people wanting to use bigger cals than they really need is someone championing a certain round for whatever reason. Many times this is the fella in camp that for whatever reason is looked up to be the gun guru, and or at the gun club or at the Fire. People look to these people for advice whether that is wrong or right they do it. And these people have the choice to direct them in certain manners. Some do it well and without prejudice, and some have a tough time not letting their ego get involved and thus they feel a need to transform others to their way of thinking.

One doesn't need to look very far or sit back around the Fire and observe for very long to see this one in effect/affect (can't recall which to use here...grin).

Enough of this, the 308 is more than capable and I spect that most could hunt elk a lifetime with a 308 and Rem CL's and or Win P-P's and do just fine. I know I for one at one time thought the 308 to be very lowly. But have come to the time/place in my life where if I had to hunt with one rifle the rest of my life and it was to be a 308 I'd just ask that it be a Lil Sky and I'd rock on happily.

Have some super holidays!

Dober

(how's the ice on CF?)

Yeah, this topic has been around a long time and you can be assured that it will surface again. I responded to this same question on the old Shooters forum on August 1, 1998 and although some of my rifles have been changed out my opinion has not:
�I also have a half a dozen belted magnums in my gun safe that are seldom taken out in woods anymore. Generally, I only carry one of them on opening morning of elk season. After the shooting starts and the elk head for cover, I am after them in the brush with one of my .308s. (Rem 600, 700, 7SS, Ruger 77SS or my favorite Win.70SS classic). The 600 has open sights and the other 4 have Nikon 4xs mounted on them. Because of my age and the good fortune of living most of my life in the rural west, I have enjoyed a reasonable amount of shooting over the years. I have killed elk in Colorado, Montana and Idaho and on one occasion harvested them in all three States in the same year. The Colorado hunts were exceptions because my 300 Win .mags did most of the work there. Starting in 1964 with a Win. model 100, the majority of the game that I have taken has been with .308s with factory loads, included a pretty good Royal. Before the model 100, I hunted with a 30-06, 270, 30-30, 300 H&H and even an old 38-55. I fully appreciate all the arguments about the .308 being marginal for elk at range, I have listen to them for years, but I am here to tell you my .308s work for me any many others here in Idaho. I am with the guys on this board that champion safe and consistent shot placement for big game over another 700 lbs. of energy.� CP.

This topic rates right up there with "should I use a 270 WSM or
7 WSM for elk?"

CP-you'll get a kick out of this, the first CF rifle I bought was a 100 carbine in 308, about 1972 or a bit later I'd guess? I bought it at a Coast to Coast in Brookings SD. Cool lil gun, and unfortunately it's still in pristine condition..

I still have the old Yellow box ammo that came with it. Ah yeah the good old days.

Dober

Mark, they were good times. And also I think we were all better off not knowing all of the �facts� that these forums offer, and instead just hunted with what we knew worked. CP.

The argument isn't about cartridges. It's about guys wanting another new rifle. We American's are suckers for marketing and materialism.

That being said, I do enjoy having choices in my gun safe. That being a 30/06, a 300 Savage, and a 7x57. Mule Deer's praise of the 9.3x62 has me interested in getting one those too. I like being a Rifle Looney!

9.3x62 is a great black timber elk round especially when you have "three shots quick" (sorry Savage).

I suppose you could trace the roots of the origin back to the cross pages feud between Keith and OConnor.
Fast forward to the 1980's and Petersons Publishing, Boddington gut shoots a 5x in Colorado 5 times with an 06 and pronounces it not enough cartridge. G Sitton claims you have to have a 338 win mag minimum just in case on the last hour of the last day an elks ass majically appears 300 yds across a canyon, followed by Seifried's steadfast statements that anything less than a 300 wby is to little for elk.
Follow that on by now the onslaught of television infomercials proclaiming the greatness of the "magnum" cartridges as minumum for elk, unless of course you're only on a "cow" hunt. Never mind that experienced folks know a cow will be in much better body condition every bit as tough and probably more of a zest for life, than a herd bull by the time rifle hunters get a crack at em.
Combine that with all the internet experts that may have seen as many elk as folks that don't own a computer have killed with their 257 Roberts and 250 savages......

I find it interesting that the same person that says a .308 is not enough gun for elk will wack away with a 30-378, 300 WHATEVER Mag, or the like at 800-1000 yards. A 30 cal bullet is only 30 cal no matter how fast you push it. Yes, I know the big magnums all carry more poop at the end of 800 yards flight, but the fact of the matter is a 308 is a great little round that has smashed many an elk, bull our cow. I picked up a 308 many years ago for the wife and kids to shoot. It has shot a pile of elk, a dandy 6x7 bull for a first bull kill for a young friend and I took a young bull with it a couple years ago. I personally shoot a 378 Weatherby for elk, but I am just trying to make up for a small penis and being a piss poor shot.

Both small and bad? I'd go to a 505 Gibbs.(kidding)

+10 on a 308 being a 308. A HUNTER can kill his/her Elk with a 30-30, a sniper wannbe is undergunned with a 30-378.

The post by Ranch13 reminds me of conversations I have had with motorcycle racers and off road lift kit makers. One of them wagged that they call the press writers "24x24x24". 24 hours a day, 24 years old, and making $24,000 a year. Now that's a bit of an exaggeration, but I have learned that EVERY bit of reporting requires me to know the perspective of the reporter. And over time you realize they have to write to get paid, and ads in the magazines are a part of the revenue model. Sometimes I get tired! But, if the facts are presented accurately, and you are willing to research and gather them, one can usually make a decent decision. Now if a fellow wants to only take the advice at the fire ring, he may have his money soon parted (and have to defend his mega-magnum purchase).

It is fun though. A friend of mine has a big cartidge fetish. And he prefers not to walk a lot. So we have both pulled each others elk out. Him and his Rem 300 Ultramag (the BAR 300 Winmag wasn't enough), and me with my beater Sav 99 308. Dead elk really don't know the difference.

In addition to what other like Mark and JB have penned, I think there's a LOT more truth to what you've said there than many realize.

Sometimes less is more...

Beats living in the Soviet or communist regime.

It doesn't have to be an either/or statement... the world isn't quite so black and white.

Well said--and don't forget Jim Carmicheal and his advocacy of 338 mags as the "perfect" elk cartridge.......

Having said that, I'll still take an 06 based case in the 270-30 cal range over the 308 based cases for elk.


Casey

I guess its the old..If you can only have 1 rifle..Deer , Elk, Moose..ect.. .308 and .3006 would both work. If you are like some and like a broad spectrum of rifles in your safe. A nice .30-.35 cal. magnum would be a nice addition, but you would still have a .08 or .3006 to take with (Just in case).

What cracks me up is how many men buy their wive's 308's and 7-08's for Elk season while they insist on carrying 300 Mags and 338's.

Remember back when Carmicheal took over at OL for OConnor? He railed insesantly about how much of a monster masher was needed for elk, then he found hisself in Scotland shooting Red Stag with a 220 swift, and all of a sudden found he had some back peddlin to do.

Yes and you could return to the Fire in 10 years and some of the same questions will be posted. People are influenced by a variety of reasons on a topic like this. Marketing plays a strong influence. Some people really don't know, others are loons, some influenced by magazines, writers, friends, on and on.
At least at a place like this, you can interactively banter back and forth with others who have more experience than you. Ultimately you still have to make your own decision. But it is not for a lack of good information.

Mark,

Sorry not to reply quicker, but have been a little busy today, oddly enough. For one thing, put Eileen on a plane to South Texas early this morning, where she is going to shoot the snot out of whitetails and pigs.

I believe you're right, a lot of stuff about elk rifles has been published by gun writers who haven't shot many. They either didn't "give them time to die" (as our Campfire friend Saddlesore puts it) or hit them wrong, and had already read just enough Elmer Keith to believe in really big cartridges-- but hadn't read enough Elmer Keith to understand that better bullets make a difference in those "raking shots."

But not many realize even a big bull is only 16" or so side-to-side. And not many realize that the "last day bull" at 400 yards can be taken by a good bulet from about any .30 from the '06 up. (I think even our old friend Ray Atkinson will agree with that!)

The .338's are great rounds for big game, and I have shot plenty of animals up to Alaskan moose and African eland with them, but in my adventures on the Campfire have found most advocates of the ".338 minimum" for elk either are hunting in very specialized circumstances, or are outastaters who buy the iron-clad elk myth.

Few years back I killed an elk with a 30-06 and my BIL killed one using a 338. You could definately tell his was more dead.

Ingwe

I've heard you don't have to hang em quite so long when there killed mo dead...

Dober

Lol

I kilt one with the 7x57 ( duh...) and he looked pretty dead alright....

Woulda been more lesser dead if I had used a .270..


Ingwe

Sometime around 1966 I killed my first elk with a Model 88,.308, I can't remember the weight ,but I think it was a 165 gr Remington Bronze point. It was a far peice out there, a steep down ward shot at the bull above timber line. I was doing a lot of competive shooting then and held high, even though it was down hill. It hit the bull in the back strap,down though the liver and on through the lungs.It stood there quite awhile with its head down dieing. I shot a few more times ,but darn if I could hit it again.It finally just fell over.
I found the bullet and the only marks on it were from the rifling. I swear I could have loaded it up again and used it.

I still have those antlers on the wall with a group of photos under it. There were three of us and we killed three bulls in less than 5 minutes. The other shooters were a .270 Remington pump and a 30-06 Remington semi. Funny,today, not one of the 3 rifles would be considered an elk rifle,nor would most consider the cartridges elk stoppers.

Tom,
He would have been MUCH more dead with the '30-06 Improved.'
grin

Nahhhhhh...you're startin' to sound like Dober...

I still think he woulda been less dead, and I'll bet he would take longer to cool, cause that big ole .284 hole lets the cold in a LOT faster than a dinky .277 hole...

You can't argue with that kind of logic...

Ingwe

That is logical!


I better find a 7X57, I guess.
(sighs)

Here is something to concider (remember I just killed an elk with a .308 and a Sierra)

If I was hunting for Trophy Bull Elk I would want to be using my .338 Win Mag. The reason is if a true monster steps out and I only have a quartering away shot I want all I can get including a super duper bullet. A 800 pound bull could have 100 pounds of solid packed and wet grass in it's belly. It's going to take a lot of gun to get there at 200-300 yards to get through all of that and on to the vitals.

Example: I shot a very large bull a few years ago at 325 yards. Using my .338 and a 225 grain Partition I placed the shot just behind the shoulder a few inches above the heart. The bullet intered a couple of inches, made a right hand turn traveled about six inches turned left and existed out the other side about the third rib from the back. He ran about 100 yards stopped and dropped over very dead.

This shot was made sitting, off of shooting sticks. I had plenty of time waiting for the cows to clear. Maybe he moved at the shot and my distance judging was slightly off, I'll never know.

I have a friend that is a world class shooter. He uses a 300 Ultra Mag just because it shoots very flat and he doesn't worry about exact distances. This is a guy that can make heart or head shots, standing, off hand at 300 yards or better. He will go prone everytime if possible.

Shot placement is everyting. Well most of the time:-)=

My favorite saddle gun for elk is a Sav. 99F 308 with 180 gr. Nosler Partitions..It has worked well indeed and mostly I hunt in sage brush hills and sparce timber..It works there...

If I am hunting in my favorite stomping gound in the Selous, and in black timber swamps, then you will see me with my .338, 9.3x62 or 375 H&H and perhaps even a 416 Rem if the mood strikes me..I will shoot the bull when he jumps and goes South or while he is looking at me on rare ocassions, either way I need to shoot him from stem to stern.

I pick my caliber by the hunting conditions..There is no one gun, one caliber solution that suits me. But if I had to pick one gun to do ALL my hunting with in No. America it would be a 30-06 with 200 gr. Noslers at 2650 FPS I suppose.

Ah, the old saw comes out again. Trophy bull elk are harder to kill than just a cow, or it is ok to take a less than desireable shot if it is some old cantankerous 400 B&C bull. Guys that is a load of crap. No two ways about it. If you would not take the shot at a cow,then you shouldn't take that shot at trohpy bull, in fact, maybe less so. I'd sure hate to let a big bull get away wounded from poor shot placement,just the same as I'd feel about a cow getting away.

I use the same cartridge with elk,no matter what I am hunting.

I agree with you saddlesore.

My little Montana 308 may just get taken on an elk hunt or three next fall after reading this thread.

Good post Saddlesore.....

Not you Ray, but sometimes I just can't get the threads straight.

Many find it horrendous to shoot a WT in the azz and post their comments on unnecessary suffering, but an Elk in the timber often has a different set of standards when it comes to posting acceptable shot placement, and no one objects.

Will someone please clarify the difference.

To me front to back or back to front, it's all the same.

"DITTO"

I have never hunted in Ray's Idaho,and he claims the only elk he sees are usually hot footing it away. I'm sure not picking on him here. This may very well be the case for him and others.I have encounterd a lot of those, and find that I can get a good shot off for about 1 out of ten encounters.If I am not confident that I can get a good boiler room shot,the elk walks. Yet I still shoot an elk about every year.

I have never shot one up the tail pipe and can only remember one I shot with a 45-70 straight down the brisket. I did not relish that gutting job.I did kill one elk with a quartering shot as it came towards me. This was in my 7mag days , I screwed that shot up by about two inches,which resulted in a long tracking job.That was at least twenty years ago,and I have not done it since.

I have been along on a few elk kills where bad shot placmenet has ended up in a butt shot elk,taking out a hind leg,or hip.Some of theses were with guys counting on a deep penetration bullet that they thought could achive a fatal raking quartering shot,but they screwed it up. There is sometinhg about watchinhg an elk trying to pull itself away using only the front legs that I find very distasteful. Then going up to it and having it bawl those last dieing gasps with wide frightened eyes as you have to give it one in the back of the haad to kill it. I don't get a thrill out of that kind of kill.

It is a living nightmare where I choose to hunt elk, but it is where the big bulls head at the first shot of the season, it is the black timber swamps on the steep sidehills of Idaho and I know of no other hell hole like some of Idahos worst..

We send one guy in then wait about 10 minutes and send the other in behind him but about 50 yards higher or lower, lower works best and the first guy tends to keep going upwards and the 2nd gun downwards, the elk jump and if the first hunters doesn't get a shot, they circle and hopefull run into the second hunter...It fast and quick shooting and 99.9% going away shots..It works for us, and that's all that counts as far as I'm concerned...

As to the Texas heart shot, its as clean a shot as one can get and puts them down faster than about any shot short of a spine or brain shot, but you must use enough gun..The shot gets the same good stuff as a broadside shot..It doesn't contaminate the meat if you clean them properly and wash them out in a creek or usually with snow, get them quartered and hung..A gut shot animal does not create any problems around here, If you hunt at all you know that you will shoot some in the gut area, no matter what, and if you have not then you have not hunted a hell of a lot, or all your hunting is under ideal conditions such as a tree stand..

Like I said my favorite sage hill elk and deer gun is my 99F in .308 stuck in my saddle scabbard, or my 06 if I am walking, but I won't take shots with too much angle, the last rib is where I will shoot going away with these lighter calibers, I will pass on a goint away shot on elk..It may work, and does most of the time, I have observed that, but I have also seen it fail, so I will pass and try to get closer or another opertunity..

As a side note I realize the 30-06 with a 220 gr. Nosler Partition will penetrate a elk lengthwise, but it does not put them down as hard as the bigger calibers or as fast.

It is my choice to use the right tool for the right job..It is my choice to use the bigger bores when I chose to do so, and the same goes for all. I don't really know what difference it makes to anyone what someone else choses to use, as long as its legal.

BTW, I have seen shot screwed up with both big bore and small bore calibers, bad shooting is just that, nothing more, but I would much rather track a bull wounded by a big bore than one wounded by a small bore, so I don't understand that anology..

It is a living nightmare where I choose to hunt elk, but it is where the big bulls head at the first shot of the season, it is the black timber swamps on the steep sidehills of Idaho and I know of no other hell hole like some of Idahos worst..And if you don't put them down quickly you will end up going down into a divide that you may not be able to climb out of..It is pretty awesome country.

We send one guy in then wait about 10 minutes and send the other in behind him but about 50 yards higher or lower, lower works best and the first guy tends to keep going upwards and the 2nd gun downwards, the elk jump and if the first hunters doesn't get a shot, they either circle of head down into the divide and are gone and you might get a shot, but if they circle then hopefully they will run into the second hunter...It can be fast and quick shooting and 99.9% going away shots..It works for us, and that's all that counts as far as I'm concerned...

As to the Texas heart shot, its as clean a shot as one can get and puts them down faster than about any shot short of a spine or brain shot, but you must use enough gun..The shot gets the same good stuff as a broadside shot..It doesn't contaminate the meat if you clean them properly and wash them out in a creek or usually with snow, get them quartered and hung..A gut shot animal does not create any problems around here, If you hunt at all you know that you will shoot some in the gut area, no matter what, and if you have not then you have not hunted a hell of a lot, or all your hunting is under ideal conditions such as a tree stand..

BTW, 99% of the Cape buffalo killed in Africa are shot going away after the first shot broadside..most are actually killed by the second and third going away shots..they are all eaten, and no big deal is made of it...and yes they bawl before they die with about any shot, if that is distasteful then one should take up golf. killing isn't always a pretty thing contrary to the what some seem to think. I have seen some pretty grusome stuff, especially with elephants, and yes it bothered me, but thats what it is..I have seen deer and elk drown themselves with festered sores and fever from poor shooting or too small a caliber.. I have also seen old bulls that are starving to death lay down and their hide freeze to the ground and then they beat their heads on the frozen ground until it swells like a drum, then they die that slow death that only mother nature herself can bestow on a beautiful animal, so leave all that emotional stuff for the LA times..

Like I said my favorite sage hill elk and deer gun is my 99F in .308 stuck in my saddle scabbard, or my 06 if I am walking, but I won't take shots with too much angle, the last rib is where I will shoot going away with these lighter calibers, I will pass on a going away shots on elk..It may work, and does most of the time, I have observed that, but I have also seen it fail, so I will pass and try to get closer or another opertunity..

As a side note I realize the 30-06 with a 220 gr. Nosler Partition will penetrate a elk lengthwise, but it does not put them down as hard as the bigger calibers or as fast.

It is my choice to use the right tool for the right job..It is my choice to use the bigger bores when I chose to do so, and the same goes for all. I don't really know what difference it makes to anyone what someone else choses to use, as long as its legal.

BTW, I have seen shots screwed up with both big bores and small bore calibers, bad shooting is just that, nothing more, but I would much rather track a bull wounded by a big bore than one wounded by a small bore, I learned that on elk, deer and especially Cape Buffalo many years ago, so I don't understand that anology..

Just another perspective and opinnion that may or may not differ from others, but both sides are worth stating IMO, and let the reader make up his own mind....

I'm sitting here with a bit of time on my hands so I thought I'd try out an analogy. I'm something of an avowed "use enough gun" guy with no trouble conceding that critters can, have and will continue to be taken quickly and cleanly with rifles that don't fell smaller nearby trees at being touched off.

One of my warm weather social activities is golf. Basically as a joke I picked up a used shaft and tracked down the biggest driver head I could find. As it turns out that was 650cc's. So I have this beast assembled and pull it out on the course one day. It pretty much gets the kind of comments I had anticipated and I go up and actually hit the thing...well. I continued to do so. My main golfing buddy borrowed it and within one round had bettered his longest drive ever on two of the holes for that course. In short order he put together one of his own.

Now, what does this club really do that the other clubs we already had in the bag didn't? It's pretty simple really...forgiveness. There's simply more clubface. My "regular" drivers are only 400cc and the longest drive I've ever hit was still with one of the 400's. The key to really knocking a golf ball isn't to necessarily drop a gonad on the swing but to get a good swing on it and hit it right in the sweet spot of the club face. Bigger club face means a bigger sweet spot. The longest shots may not even be longer but it's very likely you'll hit MORE long shots. A lousy swing is still a lousy swing though. With mutant driver I can hit a drive that, with my 400cc clubface wouldn't have been so great but with the 650cc clubface is still in the "nice drive" category.

So, what has this got to do with a hunting rifle conversation? First, let's call a bad rifle shot what it is...a bad shot. I can still slice or hook (usually the latter) that 650 driver into the trees any time I don't put a good swing on it too. If you screw up the tool in your hand, rifle or club, isn't going to just magically fix things. (funny thing though, marketers for both golf and shooting equipment try their hardest to sell you just that idea) On the other hand, if you only mess up a little bit, maybe, just maybe, that bigger stick (club or rifle) could make a difference.

Look, if everything works the way you want it to you could hunt the entire planet with a .308. (or .280/'06/etc) I'm talking deer, elk, brown bear, cape buffalo or elephant. There's literally nothing currently walking the earth that hasn't been killed by somebody using less than a .308. Most people reading this could think of a couple critters that, if they had any say in the matter, would prefer a bit more gun. So it is with some people and elk. I absolutely, positively, will not argue for a nanosecond that I NEED a .340 Wby to kill an elk any more than I need a 650cc driver to hit a golf ball. I feel there is a small, but measureable, margin for error built in with such implements. Neither will save you if you just flat out botch your part of the equation but that's not to say they can't, at least to some degree, swing the odds a tad in your favor if things don't go exactly as you planned.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there. Hope I didn't bore everybody too much.

Based on my limited Elk Hunting experience....I think the hardest part will be finding the Elk to kill with your .308.

Well Ray,if your ego is such that you think watching an elk or any animal die a slow agonizing death because of you,so be it.Sure mother nature inflicts harsh deaths on us all at times.That does not mean I have to add to it.

Gut shot game is edible,but not something I strive for.If I am going to shoot some thing and I want to eat it.I strive to treat tha animal the same as any barnyard animal I butcher.Spilling guts all over it is not one I chose. You mention the eatability of butt shot Cape Buffs. As far s I know,most of that meat is given to local villages that are great full for any meat they get.

The hills,canyons and such of ID are not much difernt than the ones in CO. We have swamps,we call bogs, steep cliffs and God forsaken canyons that are miserable to pack an elk out of. A lot ot times,we just put the safety back on and go find another elk. With myself, I take the shots that will insure a fast humane kill.Doesn't matter if it is a beef out back of the barn,or an elk in a tangle of timber.I don't consider that emotional.I consider it being an ethical hunter.Believe me,I have paid my dues in the elk hunting theater for 40 years plus and have killed my fair share of elk. Having compassion for the animal you kill and how you do it is not a barometer for ones manlyhood.

Yes you are more than welcome to go on and use what ever works for you as all others are.Others have differnt opinions and ways of doing things.Doesn't make the two good or bad.I just disagree with you

Boom.....whack.....dead...a nice .308ed bull on the ground that never went 10 feet after it was hit.

Take your .308 out over the summer and put 500 rounds through it....get deadly with it and go kill yourself a bull with it. It's not rocket science..

Nice bull!

Dober

Yeah, I'd take that.

Now as far as Ray and saddlesore's little debate. I've hunted some country that sounds sort of like Ray's.

I wouldn't start the ball rolling with a texas heart shot. However, if a wounded elk comes by, I'd like to be able to finish off the other guy's screw up, or if I foul it up, I'd like to have gun enough and bullet enough to correct (not undo ... too late for that ... but compensate for) my mistake.

The flip side is elk aren't tame moo cows I'm murdering in a meadow. I don't have all day to wait for a perfect shot when the elk might only be in sight a few seconds. When they're walking behind ferns so the feet aren't visible, going up a critter trail across a gulch stepping and hopping over logs or low drop-offs, weaving around trees, you can't know exactly what the angle is reliably. If y' can't see the feet, you can't know for sure if the shoulder blade or big leg joint have scooched over in front of the vitals. It just doesn't work that way. Can't tell if the elk is hunkered up to hop up or down, bent half around in a C, either one adding 6 inches to a foot of extra bone and meat between the hide and vitals, or standing perfectly broadside as they seem to be.

Do everything you can to make the best happen, but plan what you're going to do if you fail. Anything else is sorta irresponsible.

Tom

Or you can do what my dad does........shoot 'em in the neck......works great for him.


Casey

But guy......the elk has a big sweet spot--and you're not trying to hit the bullet with an elk--you're trying to hit the big sweet spot with a bullet........



Casey

LOL! Yeah, but sometimes critters don't like to stand where I want, like I want, at a distance I want and I hope I've doped the wind right and a better rest for my rifle would be nice...at least the damn golf ball is holding still at a known distance and it STILL doesn't always work out the way I had planned.

My last rifle purchase was in fact a .308, a nice, light and accurate stainless Tikka. Far be it from me to get all "it's gotta be a magnum or it won't work" but I am known to hedge my bets. (most people think a Spyderco Military is a bit big for EDC but hey, I like it)

There was a time when I would have agreed with this 100%. But the older I get the less I agree. Killing is killing; you can�t get away from it. There�s no way to do it that�ll satisfy everyone�s ideal of how/when/if it should be done. Some Texans bait �em in with corn and that might not be the way I want to hunt but who am I to tell them how they should hunt?

I�d agree that we owe the animals as quick and painless a death as possible, but the operative words are �as possible.� If someone tells me that for his kind of hunting the only shots he�s likely to get are at animals going away in thick timber, I�ll accept him at his word and won�t try to tell him he should hunt differently. I grew up in eastern VA where they traditionally run whitetails with dogs and shoot running deer with buckshot. Not because they don�t give a damn about the deer, but because rifles are not legal and because in those pine thickets and swamps you could go days without seeing a deer unless you send the hounds in to chase them out. Sure, a .30-06 round placed behind the shoulder of a broadside standing deer is �more humane� but that doesn�t mean a whole lot under the circumstances.

As far as watching an elk "die a slow and agonizing death" or struggle to pull itself away with its front legs, if I'm close enough to see that I�ll chamber another round and put the animal down.

As far as the .308 for an elk rifle, here's one from this year that was "DRT" with a 168 grain TSX:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../Search/true/Son_s_first_elk#Post3461582

In a word, �Yes!�

Like all cartridges, however, a .308 Win has its limits.

For purposes of discussion, let�s compare three cartridges using Nosler 6th�s fastest loads for each:
.30-30 w/ 170g Partition RN @ 2192fps (BC .252)
.308 Win w/ 165g Partition @ 2910fps (BC .410)
.300 WM w/ 165g Partition @ 3290fps (BC .410)

When comparing cartridges I like to look at three things � bullet drop, retained velocity and retained energy. I find it useful to compare bullet drops at 24� (although I�m willing to deal with more), retained velocity at 2000fps (although I�m willing to deal with less), and 1500fpe (although there is nothing magic about that number). I also like to compare Maximum Point Blank Range for the cartridges, based on a 6� diameter target. Those are the numbers I�ll use here. If anyone objects to those numbers they are welcome to choose their own and run the ballistics accordingly.

All three cartridges and loads have taken elk successfully. In fact, many elk have been taken with many different .30-30 loads, which should answer your question �would the .308 Win be enough ?�

That said, there is a pretty big difference in the capabilities of the three cartridges. Using bullet drop and retained energy and velocities, they compare as follows when using a Maximum Point Blank Range zero for a 3� max rise/drop (6� diameter target):

Zero/MPBR
167/206 yards = .30-30
245/287 yards = .308 Win
273/320 yards = .300 Win Mag

-24�
310 yards =.30-30 (1374fps, 712fpe)
435 yards =.308 Win (2033fps, 1514fpe
490 yards =.300 Win Mag (2233fps, 1827fpe)

2000fps
65 yards =.30-30 (+2.4�, 1506fpe)
450 yards =.308 Win (-26.5�, 1473fpe)
615 yards =.300 Win Mag (-52.5�, 1467fpe)

1500fpe
65 yards = .30-30 (+2.4�, 1997fps)
440 yards =.308 Win (-24.5�, 2024fps)
600 yards =.300 Win Mag (-48.5�, 2029fps)

You will notice there isn�t a great deal of difference between the .308 Win and .300 Win Mag in terms of MPBR � a mere 33 yards. For a -24� drop the difference is 55 yards. If the bullet you choose needs about 2000fps to expand properly, the .300 Win Mag adds 165 yards to the capability of the .308 Win and if 1500fpe is the desired energy at impact the .300 Win Mag bests the .308 Win by 160 yards.

What does this mean in practical terms to the hunter? Perhaps nothing, perhaps everything � it depends on the terrain the hunter will be hunting in and on other factors like the hunter�s skill with the weapon in hand and the ranges at which the hunter is prepared to take shots.

When I hunt elk with my .30-30, 150 yards is on the long side of my comfort range. Grab my .308 Win and I�m very comfortable to 400 and would push that to 450 without much concern. With the .300 Win Mag in my hands, 600 is very doable.

If you are hunting in heavy timber, a 600 yard cartridge won�t buy you much over a .30-30. If you are hunting clearings from an overlook, cross canyon hillsides or open sage, as I often do, the difference in a .300 Win Mag and .308 Win can be very significant. To put things in perspective, I like to use a football field analogy. Often when using the .30-30 I find myself watching a area much smaller than a single football field, which measures 6400 square yards. Thus a single football field worth of coverage with the cartridge in hand is significant to me and easily visualized.

Note that the football field comparison compares area rather than range, which is appropriate when you consider that elk live in an area, not on a straight line, and can appear from any place in that area or enter the area from any place along the edge. Also note that the % differences remain the same whether you are talking about a full circle or simply a narrow pie-shaped wedge.

Using the numbers from above and measuring in Football Fields (FF):

MPBR
40.4 FF = .308 Win
50.3 FF = .300 Win Mag
=================
9.8 FF = .300 Win Mag Advantage (24.3%)

-24�
92.9 FF = .308 Win
117.9 FF = .300 Win Mag
=================
25.0 FF = .300 Win Mag Advantage (26.9%)

2000fps
99.4 FF = .308 Win
185.7 FF = .300 Win Mag
=================
86.3 FF = .300 Win Mag Advantage (86.8%)

1500fpe
95.0 FF = .308 Win
176.7 FF = .300 Win Mag
=================
81.7 FF = .300 Win Mag Advantage (86.0%)


If you are prepared for long shots and are hunting an area where they are possible, the .300 Win Mag clearly provides a significant advantage when such opportunities arise. On the other hand, I�ve been hunting elk since 1982 and have never taken a shot over 350 yards. (Although I have turned down numerous opportunities to do so, sometimes coming home empty-handed as a result.)

Know your .308 Win and load, choose an appropriate bullet, and success or failure will primarily depend on your ability to find elk and the time you put into that effort.

Oh, yeah � some people will tell you that you can always �get closer�. Ask them if they�ve always been able to do that. If they�ve hunted elk much and answer honestly the answer will be �No.� FWIW.

Will someone please do the cliff notes on that for me?

OK Johnny...here goes...

The .308 will kill elk..

Pick a proper bullet...

Run it fast enough...

Make it hit the important stuff on an elk...

It works...


Ingwe

Arguing with CH is like arguing with my wife.The last time Coyote Hunter and I discussed the 7MM/270/'06 it went for 23 pages of ballistics on another forum.

It's the shooter not the caliber that gets 'er done.

Jayco

Whew.. Thanks!

A .308 Win will be fine most of the time...

Yes, the .308 Winchester as was said prior several times in the last few years, will kill an elk. However, it does have a lot of limitations other calibers like the .338 Win mag or .300 Win mag do not have in a sence of yardage what type of shot you can put on the animal. My .338 Win mag with 250 grain bullet can go from any direction, including the Texas Heart shot.

You keep telling yourself that, ok?

How many elk have you seen killed? What calibers? And what ranges?

If you take two identical hunters, one carrying a rifle with 33% more frontal area but with 10% less retained energy at 450 yards, in an area where the average shot can be from 300 to 500 yards on trophy bulls, one using monolithic bullets, and the other using a bonded bullet, a ham sandwich wrapped up in a ballistic chart tastes pretty damn good at noon.

Considering that 90% of all big game is harvested within 200 yrds. I think the .308 with be just fine on over 90% of the situations. It's a nice caliber to shoot and shoot well. Bagged my biggest with it.

Fred, I think you have nailed the formula.

I've kill at least 9 with a 270 win so I guess a 308 should do the job very well.

Thanks. I can breathe again.

Well, that would depend on wind speed and the mustard used.

Pickle or no pickle?

Well, that depends, bread & butter or dill?

I believe a hoagie or grinder roll will have the highest BC of anything else out there and it's best to go the extra mile and bond the ingredients with liberal amounts of mayo or mustard unless you want it to come apart...

The elk I have conferred with seem to prefer the 308, at least the northern and western elk. Many of your southern elk tend to like the larger calibers. Mountain elk like a Mtn Rifle or a Montana...I have never found a mature bull who would turn down a hoagie, pastrami being the preferred filling and you are right, mayo (not Miracle Whip being a plus for weight retension amongst Rocky Mountain elk, but not so much Roosevelts...) This is not a scientific study, although Tule elk, being mostly Californian have a wide preference for Avacado and bean sprouts dry on whole wheat....

Yeah, but is the Ham Kosher or not and besides, do you use Mayonaise oe Miracle Whip.

I vote for the 308, good bullets, and basic marksmanship.

I wish I would have known about folks experiences with the 308 on elk years ago-before I spent all that time and money on the big magnums.

I may just say 'fugg it' and sell all my other rifles and stick with my 270 and 308.















....nah, what fun would that be??

Excellent post Ray.

Or, did that gutting job look like relish ?

A lover of Miracle Whip would never entertain such a thought !!

Tonk, you obviously (very obviously) have no experience with elk let alone the .308. How in the heck to you come up with such stupid data? Have you been reading reloading manuals and Field and Stream again? How often do you need to embarrass yourself before you shut your mouth and listen to those that actually have a little experience? You probably believe elk weigh 1,200 lbs. too. You simply amaze me with every post. Flinch

LOL.

I agree with the sentiment - both shots to be avoided.

Technically there is a difference, though. The relative location of the vital organs in the bullet path and the type of matters encountered make a possible difference in terminal effect.

The 308 is an excellent caliber for elk....with good bullets. In the last 20 yrs or so the improvement in bullets has been amazing, although the old Remington Corelokt still works fine.
If you compare factory 308 velocity to 30/06 factory velocity (same bullet weight) you'll see there is very little difference, the 30/06 has to be handloaded to gain much of an edge over the 308.
I've taken 27 elk, several have been with the 308 & 2 of those were with a TC Encore handgun, the bullet of choice was either a Barnes X or a Sierra 135 gr single shot pistol bullet, both were one shot kills & both elk were bulls.
Shoot good bullets, hit the vitals & don't over extend the distance, seems to always work!

Dick

Didn't read the thread, no reason to I imagine, as it will be the same-o same-o as always.
I have kilt elks with a 308 and seen elks kilt with a 308. None of em ran off or had to be tracked far. For the umpteenth time. "it's is not what critters are shot with, it's where they're shot that matters most".

I athought tule elk preffered brie and merlot? And they also preffer to be shot with copper bullets cuz lead poisons there condor buddys?