I received a call from the Montana FWP yesterday informing me that I was "drawn" for a late season antlerless elk damage hunt. I've heard mixed reviews about one of these hunts that usually takes place every winter down the Madison Valley, and I am not interested in dodging hot lead just to get a cow.

Any members have any experience (good or bad) with these management/damage hunts? I was told it will take place on a private ranch in unit 393 from Sat-Mon, I'm guessing near the Bridger foothills or Bangtails area. I did not harvest an elk during the regular season, so a young cow would really help the freezer situation!

I used to drive by big herds of elk on private land (next to the highway/Madison River) to hunt the publicly-owned land in "the hills." You could go to the ranchers and pay them to kill one of the many elk there, or you could climb the mountains to try your luck on the public land. I had a lot of fun hunting the public land, but I thought it was weird to drive by so many nice elk right there next to the highway, standing around, looking at us cars drive by. I think your hunt would be a matter of going to a ranch and shooting whatever is legal. They probably taste much like the public land elk.

That's about 100 miles from the Madison Valley.

From what I understand of this "hunt" is that you're right about it being on a ranch on the West side of the Bridger's or in Bridger Canyon. A friend was drawn for one of these tags a few years ago, and told me that he went to a certain ranch, and shot a cow from a herd that was eating the rancher's haystack.

No dodging bullets from other hunters, probably just you, maybe another hunter or two, the rancher, and maybe a game warden. Shoot straight, and your freezer will be full.

I put in for that same tag, but I guess my name is too far down the list. I forgot about the whole thing.

I am well aware of of the where the Madison Valley is ;), I was only using as reference because I have heard of a large ranch that oftens holds damage hunts in that unit.

I sorta forgot about it myself, I remembered putting in for the deer damage hunts, but an elk will work too!

The list of names for the damage,(from MFWP), hunt is made available to ranch managers for the damage hunt.
The ranch managers usually call you.
Here in the upper Madison, it has been so mild most all of the elk have remained in the hills, up high.
So no elk lower on the ranches, damaging anything, and so no real damage hunt.
And there is not a crowd harvesting those damaging elk, usually just a couple of shooters each day.

Montana PH
I have ben with a friend on one of those control hunts and the one I was on was very well managed. It's certainly not a wilderness hunt in the Bob Marshall, but it's an ethical, legal and fun way of getting an elk in the freezer. I'd damn sure go if I were you.

Fred Royce

IMO the game damage hunts in the Madison have gotten mucho better in the last couple of years. In terms of how much of a rodeo it can be. Now when they had the extended hunts there was a lot of rodeoing going on on the flats (and that emcompassed quite a few ranches and not so much the big one that just got sold by the way).

The state land down that way has been a real joke as well IMO..

It sounds like your hunt is north of Boze and I think it'll be a lot better and fairly controlled. I know quite a few ranchers in that area and think you'll have a good trip and should fill the freezer.

Dober

The "Rodeo" as Dober calls it, is sort of what I have heard about in the past when the elk come off the Madison range.

I am waiting for the contact call or info in the mail today or tom. Hopefully it will be a more low-key harvest, I'd love to take along my wife(she's not really the backcountry type...yet ).

So, Dober, did you sell the Sun Ranch this time? Last I heard, the asking price was $42 million--probably a pretty good commission there...

MontantPH, I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't know where the Madison Valley is. I wrote that mainly to show others here on the forum that your hunt area was not near the Madison Valley.

Also, my mistake about your hunt happening on the west side of the Bridgers. That's area 312 where I applied. I've hunted a friend's land in the north end of 393, and when I first read your post, I was thinking that 393 was west of the Bridger Canyon Road.

Shoot a good one.

MontanaPH: I hope you have a great and rewarding Hunt during this damage control thingy!
I personally REFUSE to partake in these "RUN THE GAUNTLET" and "FIRING LINE" type Hunts!!!
The neccessity for these "Hunts" is caused by ranchers who won't allow Hunters on their places in the regular season and the Elk NOW herd up on private ranches and not neccessarily the ranches that do not allow the Hunting in regular Hunting seasons!
Reason #2 for these damage control Hunts is the vast over-population of Wolves that have the Elk (in the last 7 to 10 years - depending on the area!) completely stressed out and all out of the norm for the time of year and relating to weather (snow) conditions!
Out of the norm being they are where the Wolves hesitate to caper!
Result "damage control Hunting"!
I drove by a traditional Elk wintering area just 3 days ago and in this area where normally 1,200 to 1,800 Elk normally passively spend the winter (no matter what the conditions!) on sun bathed open ridges there were only 350 Elk - and Wolf tracks did abound there!
Some miles from there on private ranches the Elk were hanging near corrals and ranch houses!!!
Result "damage control Hunting"!
This situation (damage control Hunts - Elk where they shouldn't be in mild conditions!) is way out of the decades long norms I am familiar with!!!
Again best of luck to you on your Hunt but I refuse to perpetuate this new F&G situation where Elk Hunting in SW Montana MOSTLY consists of "FIRING LINES" and "RUNNING THE GAUNTLETS" type "Hunting"!
Thats NOT Hunting in my book!
And I let the F&G folks know of my dissatisfaction every chance I get!
With as mild a winter as were are having there should be NO [bleep] reason what so ever for an ELK "damage control Hunt"!!!
The artificial reason for this Hunt is the transplanted Canadian Wolves have them stressed and moved onto private areas!
PERIOD!
Again best of luck to you
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, thank you for wishes of luck. I think if you re-read my original post, I referred to this as a "harvest", I myself do not consider this a "hunt" in the true sense of the word.

I also support the control of the wolf problem that has begun to devastate animal numbers and create disarray in the wintering and migration habits of elk and deer herds in certain parts of the state.

The reason I started this read was to get feedback from those who have had experience with these mgmt harvests because I too have heard tales of the "firing line" style depredation "hunts", which I was not at all interested in. I was able to speak with the FWP manager in charge of this mgmt operation as well as the ranch owner. This particular scenario is limited to 10 people max spread over 3 days.

I don't necessarily blame ranchers or a lack of hunter access for these types of hunts though. This particular ranch is located at the foothils of the northern Bridgers and Belt mountains (areas with plenty of snow and not a large number of wolves compared to other areas). Most of these elk spend the fall in mountains being hunted by the masses on pulic land, only to be forced down to private land by weather after the seasons end.

I clearly understand some of your frustrations with the situation, thanks for the feedback!

Please let MontanaPH et al. fill their freezers with meat in peace. No one is trying to "perpetuate" anything, and your opinion on the intricacies of ungulate biology and population dynamics is just that.

Damage control hunts are conducted much the same way in Colorado.
Numbers are drawn. Hunts go out 2 maybe 3 days per week at the most. One hunter hunts per day, 2 at the max.

"RUNNING THE GAUNTLET" and "FIRING LINES" are fiction.

In Southern Colorado there are no wolves. The agricultural damage occurs in the total absense of wolves.

The hunts must be planned nearly a year in advance. Weather in any one given year has nothing to do with it.

The way things are going in my area, elk may be tough to hunt or "harvest" for the unforseeable future. Good luck filling the freezer. mtmuley

Mudhen, just curious, how'd you hear about the sale?

www.headwatersnews.org

Alamosa: IF you are foolish enough to believe that much of the Elk Hunting here in SW Montana (where over 50% of all of Montanas Elk ARE harvested by the way!) has NOT been reduced to firing line and running the gauntlet type Hunting then you simply are ignorant of which you are trying to speak!
I live here!
I KNOW what is going on!
I Hunt here virtually year round and I see these things as fact!
Just consider this case in point for your consideration/information!
I and an Elk Hunting partner were traveling from one huge valley to another on October 29th 2,009, when we drove through a huge cattle ranch around noonish.
There had been a herd of 800 Elk hiding on the adjacent ranch for the first several days of the season with an accompanying HOARDE of road Hunters just lurking about and waiting for the Elk to come off of the adjacent ranch onto property that could be Hunted.
There were over 40 fresh gutpiles within 100 yards of the country road and fenceline between these two ranches!
For some reason the Elk decided to make a break for it and the resulting gauntlet and firing line ensued!
Does that evidence/observation not sound like like a firing line to you?
We were to later learn that many citations (arrests) were made there for folks "jumping the gun" and firing at Elk in the gravel road and for using walkie talkies to Hunt and direct Hunters and for "hunters' shooting more than one Elk and etc etc etc!
Yeah I guess maybe those VISIBLE from the road gutpiles just came down from the "high country" and deposited themselves along that "firing line, "gauntlet"!
I know personally and fish with one of the butchers/butcher shop owners here in Dillon, Montana - he told me that the wardens brought him more confiscated Elk this year than in ANY previous year!
Firng lines and gauntlets were the big culprits here.
The game wardens and County Sheriffs have actually been closing certain roads here in SW Montana to prevent these firing line and running the gauntlet scenarios and to prevent the Hunters from shooting each other and livestock on the flat valley floors. For the last three seasons this has occurred.
They actually post notices in the local papers of these "firing line" road closures and the high Sheriff uses this emergency power under the public safety statutes!
If you think this situation is fiction there Alamosa YOU have another think coming!
And try to make your next "think" one that is based on reality!
I again re-iterate that those Elk would not be where they were at that time of the year if it were not for the Wolves harassing them and if it were not for some ranchers and private property owners not allowing reasonable Hunts to prevent these congregations of Elk on agricultural and private lands!
If you know not of what you speak you probably should not speak there Alamosa!
And this is just one of MANY disgusting scenarios I am privey to!
My good friend Ross Carmen from the Bitterroot Valley of Montana came over here for the opening long week of Elk Hunting with two friends. They brought two vehicles and a camp trailer. They set up two days before season and scouted the Elks "normal haunts".
NO Elk were seen in the "normal haunts" but they did learn of the huge numbers of Elk "hiding" on some ranches on the valley floors!
They investigated and were amazed having not seen Elk on the valley floors for the openers of some previous past seasons.
Then late on the second day of a planned 9 day Hunting trip all three HUNTERS were so sickened by the "roadside and fenceline slaughters" of Elk that they packed up and drove the 180 miles back to their homes!
The game wardens here in SW Montana now have "robo-Elk" that they set up along fencelines and in the area of firing lines and they pick off road (i.e. firing line and gauntlet) Hunters by the score!
Their bail forfeitures are cited in the local paper hereabouts all season and well after the season once their cases are adjudicated!
You are also wrong on infering that damage control Hunts are planned a year in advance here in SW Montana (the land of firing line and gauntlet type Elk "Hunting"!)!
They are NOT!
Last year (2,008 season) on just a few days notice the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks extended the Elk Hunting season in many of SW Montanas Game Management Areas!
If I recall correctly the already LONG season was extended 2 full weeks!
Again if you don't know what you are talking about you probably should not contribute!
I hope the Wolves never take hold in Colorado and I hope Colorado is never reduced to firing lines and gauntlet type Hunting but unfortunately this is a recent fact of life here in SW Montana!
There still is NO climatalogical reason for a "damage control Hunt" here in SW Montana - we are having an unusually warm winter and last I heard we were 20% behind in snowpack - that was 3 weeks ago and no snow to speak of has fallen since!
We might be 25% or 30% behind by now?
"RUNNING THE GAUNTLET" and "FIRING LINES" are for real dude and that, like YOUR ignorance, is a shame!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but game damage hunts and an extended elk season are two entirely different things are they not? I am quite sure that they are separate processes determined by unique sets of criteria.

Thanks.

Always surprises me how well known that particular ranch is...

VarmintGuy - you need to get your story straight.

I do not doubt that a group of hunters killed a group of elk resulting in some gut piles that you saw. Unfortunately you can find a similar example of that in most states. Colorado has migration corridors (gauntlets) where herds are ambushed legally nearly every year in the same location (usually not as large as you describe). Colorado also has primitive ones (gauntlets) where the ground is loaded with spear points and buffalo skulls. It is a huge jump to go from one of these corridors or regions to conclude that an entire state is that way.

At various times you blame the weather, the wildlife dept, ranchers, wolves, damage control hunts themselves, for this occurence. You've gone even further into you rant by asserting alternately that the damage control hunts are responsible for the firing line scenario, but then detailing game management attempts to stop it. Which is it?

Here is the bottom line.
Damage Control Hunts are a nuisance for wildlife departments but they have to conduct them. They have an obligation to respond to agricultural damage but they have a difficult situation in that they also have a lot of pressure from their best customers to provide a hunting opportunity. They lose a lot of money providing damage control hunts and it would be far easier for them to simply cull animals. PR is very important to these departments - though at times you wouldn't know it. This much is guaranteed - they are never going to create or condone this sort of mass slaying scenario. If you can't understand that then get someone to explain it to you.

You make it sound as though there was no such thing as a damage control hunt before ranchers began refusing access and before wolves were reintroduced.
I'm sure there has been AG damage since there has been ranches
I'll bet ranchers have denied hunting access since the first ones were established.
I'm sure there have been damage control hunts for decades now in virtually every Western state.

Damage control hunts are always initiated more then a year in advance. It is way more involved than some elk hanging around corrals. AG damage has to be proven and the losses calculated. The AG dept has to coordinate with the Wildlife dept. Budget for hunt coordinators has to be established and a fair way of administering the tags. There is a lot more involved than a guy waving a pen.

VarmintGuy - I am especially interested in your assertion that MOST of the hunting in MT is in the form of these 'firing line' or 'run the gauntlet' hunts. I find that incredible. Please provide proof of that, and please no more 'I talked to', or 'my good friend' or other conjecture.

When you have the need to state "I KNOW what is going on!" that is about as big a red flag as when someone says "Trust Me".
Do you even live in MT?
You have sucessfully contributed the stupidest post here in quite some time now.

Didn't that actor Steven Siegal own that ranch at one time?

MontanaPH,

I participated in one of the late game damage hunts in the Madison last year. While it wasn't much of a hunt, nor did I expect it to be, it was a good experience and a lot of fun. I actually put in about four miles on foot, almost had to pack an elk out, and saw a pack of 13 wolves, which I found pretty neat. They spread the hunters out enough that there was no way a "FIRING LINE" could have broken out.

Good luck,
Carl

Carl is absolutely right, there isn't always a firing line.

The closest thing I've seen to that is down by Cameron on the state section right off the highways, now that can get plumb ugly. But other than that I've seen a lot worse rodeos on crowed public lands than I've ever seen on the late hunts.

A good friend of mine has been called the last couple years for the late Madison hunts. Both times he told the rancher the only way he'd come is if he would be allowed to go up on the mtn and hunt them there. He told the rancher he didn't want to be a part of the flats. Rancher was cool with it and both times he got an elk and both times he had good hunts.

Anyone who thinks that the late hunts are always firing lines just hasn't been out enough.

Dober

Yeah Segal bought it in June of 93, then he sold it in 98. It's changed hands 4 times since I've been around Montana (78,93,98,10) and that's why to me it's talked about a bit, I mean that is a ton load of movement for a ranch of any size! It's a good sized property (though not a big one) and when they move (sell) people like to talk about it.

Now back to the regular channel of late elk hunts...and firing lines and such..

Dober

I figure its up to Montanans to fight about Montana's wolves (finally-thankfully) and seasons and setch, but I thought I should point out that the Varmint moved there from the west coast about 12 years ago, to make a living off the state's game; thus the hatred of wolves and unguided "firing-line" hunts. Understandable, but a bit slanted, and....well, I'll leave it at that.

I think the Sun is special because if its size relative to its proximity to Yellowstone (18K acres), and the Madision River, coupled with the incredible number of elk that can be found wintering on it. That and its closeness to one of the coolest towns in Montana, Ennis, and its situation in one of the most spectacular mountain valleys in Montana.

Just one man's opinion... now back to fighting about killing elk. Sheesh

Visit almost every year, since about 1970! Love that brown trout spawning area below bear trap canyon....great fishing all the way up the valley into the park...hell, I love it all...well maybe sans the bicyclers with skin-tight clothing and helmets....whats with that, anyway? Modern cowboys?

The only reason I know anything about that ranch, because the guy I hunt elk with was born there. His father was a ranch hand there in the 50s-60s. I was told it was the largest ranch in Montana at one time. I really enjoy that Madison valley when I come out.

VarmintGuy,
I personally REFUSE to partake in these "RUN THE GAUNTLET" and "FIRING LINE" type Hunts!!!
The neccessity for these "Hunts" is caused by ranchers who won't allow Hunters on their places in the regular season and the Elk NOW herd up on private ranches and not neccessarily the ranches that do not allow the Hunting in regular Hunting seasons!
Reason #2 for these damage control Hunts is the vast over-population of Wolves that have the Elk (in the last 7 to 10 years - depending on the area!) completely stressed out and all out of the norm for the time of year and relating to weather (snow) conditions!
Out of the norm being they are where the Wolves hesitate to caper!
Result "damage control Hunting"!
Your extreme ineptitude is exceeded only by your immortal penchant for irrationality and generalization.
I have been living and hunting in MT since you were shaking down Jr High kids for dime bags of weed wherever you came from.
Yes wolves are problem here and I do not lie having them around. But they are not the only issue when it comes to elk populations and control. You feel free to spout off about how you have access to private lands to shoot varmints, but have the audacity to blame private landowners for ownership of elk population problems. Do you even read the stuff you write? Many landowners do not even see an elk on their property until well after the general hunting season has closed.
Get informed or STFU.

Dave

PS. Learn how to spell or at least use spell check. Proper use of capitalization would also make your postings not be such a joke. While you are at it bite the bullet finish up that GED class ya freaking putz.

HEY, let's not get carried away with facts... irrational rants are so much more interesting (grin)...

+2...

Dober

I agree. It is more fun to read the misinformed diatribes some of these mouth breathers come up with. That one guy in particular does tend to raise my BP with his BS. I should know better than to respond to that crap after attending a superbowl party....

Elk are a problem here and there is no easy answer. I am convinced that elk are the biggest problem we have in SW MT with respect to the decline in mule deer populations. Say all you want about lion predation, but being outcompeted for winter range by elk sure seems to me to be the bigger issue. We have been hammering lions for over 10 years in my neck of the woods and the mulies are still on the wane. We also shoot a lot of cow elk but are losing ground there as well.

Dealing with the public during any kind of late or damage hunt on private land requires extra resources and just because you can see a bunch of elk does not mean your average weekend warrior is going to be able to kill one. Especially when they have been shot at all season, or in some cases/areas where you have hunted cows consistently over the years and killed most of the stupid ones.

I saw a herd of about 100 elk on the east rim of the lower Madison Valley above Greycliff the other day. Damn things are getting to be like ground squirrels. Too bad we can't shoot them the same way, but the stench would get a bit nasty I recon.

Gee,
Aint no fun when they pee their pants and run away. Guess I will need to temper my approach to string 'em along a bit.

Daveinmt, I'll add my $0.02 by taking your comment slightly out of context and say: I am convinced that people are the biggest problem we have in SW MT.

mea culpa
Ya got me there.

Hey, on the upside, I saw a ground squirrel yesterday.
I'm loading up small centerfire stuff that I should have been pecking away at all winter. Takes that first confirmed gopher sighting to get me motivated. Gonna break out my Ruger No.1 Bee this year. Its been gathering dust in the back corner of a safe since the Clinton administration.