I've heard and read many times that a cartridge in the order of 270/280/30-06 is very adequate for even bull elk as long as the hunter is careful in picking his or her shots and using good bullets like partitions, fail safes and grand slams.

Nobody ever defines what being careful means.

Can you experienced elk hunters give me what you think this means in terms of distance, angles, animal behavior (eg. rutting vs feeding) and whatever you think is an important consideration.

I think being careful mostly means keeping your ranges short enough to be precise in bullet placement and retain enough energy to be lethal. One other thing to consider is the terrain and cover. If you're in more open country with less chance of losing the elk in cover you can "get away" with less gun.

As an example, I knew a guy from Alabama. He was stationed in Washington and was a good hunter. His rifle of choice was the .30-30. He killed a couple of elk with it. The shots were broadside at 100 yards or less.

One evening a 5x5 bull (Roosevelt) swam the river and as he was getting out on the bank he was shot with the .30-30. Water flew from the bullet strike. It was a good hit but the bull made no reaction except to head up the bank. Shot after shot was fired, 5 hits in all, every one in the "boiler room" and then the bull was gone in the heavy brush.

If you've never been to the Olympic Penninsula area of WA it's hard to describe but it was what we call "tangle-azz". The darkness, the rain, and the problem of getting searchers across the river slowed the search down. That bull was never found. The blood was gone, there were tons of tracks and his just blended in.

The guy bought a .300 magnum two weeks after returning from the hunt.

They found the skeleton of the bull the next year. The area had been clear cut and he was laying in a root hole where an old hemlock had tipped over. The hole had been overgrown with brush before the logging operation...a perfect place to hide.

A smaller gun works fine in places where it's more open, or you aren't likely to lose the tracks or bloodtrail due to pouring rain or heavy brush. I don't consider a .30-06 a smaller gun. With some good bullets like 180 or 200 Noslers they dump elk just fine.

Your milage may vary.

My defination only. Careful is knowing without a doubt that you can put a bullet in a paticular patch of hair, and being sure which hair to aim for.

I think being careful means that you know that you have a bullet that will penetrate through and make holes in vital organs from the angle and spot you have to shoot from.
A 270 with 130gr ballistic tips is pretty questionable shooting from a rear facing quartering angle, it might not penetrate through enough elk to reach the heart lungs. A 140gr Failsafe would as long as the shot isn't from 500yds away.
If you can't make a shot that will reach the vitals you shouldn't take the shot with any rifle from any range.
I haven't seen as many Elk killed as some on this forum have, but I have seen a couple shot with a 270 that took extra shots to knock over, but they were in the back of a truck dead right next to one shot with some magnum.............DJ

I think anything over a 300 yd shot is best passed up . Quartering away shots are best avoided, unless you've already put one into the heart/lungs. There's just to much stuff to get in the way of a bullet trying to make its way from the hams to the vitals.
Elk aren't as suseptable to the "bang flop" syndrom as whitetails, and can take a lot of punishment. I've seen them take as many as 6 hits from 300 wby.
Picking a bullet with good sectional density to help with penetrating hide and muscle, break ribs, and or leg bones is a good idea, but thousands of the buggers died from well placed shots with ordinary bullets before it became common knowledge that nothing less than a premium bullet will do.
Shoot as much gun as you accurately and consitently can, don't take silly desperation shots , you'll be fine with the "standard" cartriges.

First thing is dont take "Texas heart shots". Hunting comes in many forms and situations. Hunting in heavy brush, most shots will not be the ideal and some animals will be lost regardless what you are shooting. This caliber thing is a conversation starter more than anything else and everyone should shoot what they are comfortable with. There is no one rifle for all things that's why we have many rifles, pistols and shotguns. If we all liked the same thing everyone would have the same wife and automobile. I was a warden in NM and have seen animals killed with almost everything. The little 22LR poaches many animals every night everywhere there are animals and the spotlight is the only giveaway as to where it's happening. -- no <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Those hard to kill bulls are usually ones that have just been run, climbed a mountain, or in the one case swam a river or lake. When they get thier adrenaline flowing , it takes a lot to put them down. If they are not spoked, and no adreniline is flowing, most calibers from .270 up will put them down bang flop as some say. I know a guy tha kills regularly with a 25-.06. Not my choice, but he does it.
My choice is an .06 with heavy bullets. I have killed elk from 15 yds up to 340 yds with them and the elk have gone down right now, and I usually kill one every year. If you are pushing bullets to high velocities, as magnums do, stay with the premiums, if not, most of the heavier bullets that Sierra, Hornady, Speer , etc will do the job, as long as they are placed in the right spot.

My rifle of choice for next year in heavy timber, just for a change, is a 44 mag carbine shooting full loads of hard cast bullets

There is a good conversation going on this site right now about the .270win specifically as an elk cartridge.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/377087/an/0/page/0#377087

I personally prefer the .300mags as a nice minimum for elk. There are 2 distinctly different types of elk, old mature bulls and all the others. If you are after a bull elk I believe you�re going to want a strong hitting caliber because pound for pound a bull elk is one of the toughest animals around. Of course hunting elk is the same as hunting anything else, in that shot placement is the single most important factor, but I believe in using plenty of gun as insurance against a not so perfect shot. The more tissue you damage in the wound channel the better, especially marginal shots. Not everyone agrees you want/need a heavy magnum for elk but you can read more about that in the mentioned thread.

Great Elk talk, problem is it gets me fired up to go hunting and it's only January!

I posted on the thread regarding the 270 on elk. While I know it will work, if I am headed elk hunting it isn't my choice. I would much rather have my ruger #1 338 win with 250 gr nosler partitions (hard to go wrong with 300 mag and 200 partitions though). I shoot the 338 very well in field conditions; so why not have shot placement, large caliber, and lots of energy....

I agree with 300wby, big bulls are almost a different species than the "other elk", they are big and tough.

Just my 2 cents

Eric

It means don't punch him in the guts.

Poke a hole in the right spot with any of the big three, using a good bullet, and he'll be pushing up daisies.

What's the experienced opinion on the 308 Win for Elk?

Load it with 165 gr bullets and enjoy the elk meat.

Both of my sons have taken elk with the .308. Every time they used the 180-gr. Nosler Partition @2600 fps. Bulls were shot from 80 to 150 yards and made complete pass-throughs, with the exception of one bull shot at 100 yds., where the bullet could be found just under the skin on the far side. The farthest any bull traveled was about 40 yards. Pretty satisfactory performance, I'd say.

I�m with Ranch 13 Quartering away shots are best avoided; I can�t believe anyone would take this shot unless it was at a wounded animal.

Personally I will let the animal walk away if this is the only shot it gives me. I see no since in shooting the hams or whacking it in the gut too much wasted meat if you hit the hams, and I don�t like the taste of gut. Just a bad shot IMO.

If I don�t have a good shot I don�t shoot probably the reason I can say that I have never lost an animal.

Am I reading something wrong? A quartering away shot allows placing the bullet near the rear rib and through both lungs to the front of the far side shoulder. Seems just about perfect to me.

As a matter of fact, I shot both my Moose and Caribou that way in Newfoundland this year with my 30-06 and 180gr. Core Lokt Ultras,with perfect results. Moose was just over 200 yds. and went about 30 yds before falling over. The Caribou was under 100 Yds. and collapsed at the shot. Bullets passed through both animals. Neither shot hit any of the abdominal cavity.

If you're talking about a shot from an angle more to the rear where the angle requires bringing the hams into play, I agree completely. That, however, would not be a quartering shot.

FWIW:

Good Old Colonel Cooper once commented:

The 338 is a fine elk round. So is the 30-06. If you cannot fetch your elk with a 30-06, you can't do it with the 338.

Point being a 30 Caliber hole is sufficient. Everything else is shot placement. Shot placement required practice. And the 308 Win/30-06 is more conducive to practice than the 338.

A poster above made a point about a bull escaping with 5 shots from a 30-30 in the boiler room (presumably a double lung shot).

I doubt a 338 in the boiler room would have made the difference. Lung shots require a certain amount of time between the hit and the death. Lung shots are reliable, but do not break down the skeleton of the Elk.

A broken shoulder MAY have stopped the Elk in the story. Of course, It may not have.

A 338 in the shoulder, has a very good chance of stopping an elk. But nothing is perfect, not even a 375 H&H shooting 270 grain A frames at 2700 fps, will guarantee that the Elk would have been stopped. The odds are higher with the 375. But certainty arises ONLY if the bullet hits bone.

This is a long way around to answer the Original question: What is "being careful?"

The answer is:

1-Practice, Practice, and more Practice with your rifle.

2-Then develop a good knowledge of Elk anatomy and shot placement.

3-Then, get a range finder and learn how to use it and how to judge distances.

4-Then stay within the range limits of your Rifle AND your shooting ability. A 338 can kill an elk out to 350 yards. But very, very few shooters can hit an elk at that distance from a field position.

ANyway, thats my take on being careful,

Your Mileage May Vary,

Good Shooting,

BMT

I've taken elk with Arrows, 3006 and 300 Win. Its kind of amazing how quickly a broadhead bleeds out an elk. I think that confirms the shot placement advise. At the same time a 300 win hits a large animal very hard, and I am convinced it puts even a smaller elk down for the count faster than a 3006. I have not however had to track any of my elk farther than 30-40 yards, cause they where hit in the heart and lungs. No I don't carry a stop watch into the woods with me, but even the big bulls seem to lay down a few steps sooner and drop their heads a few seconds quicker when hit with the heavier round. Does that matter? Not really. A 30-30 or a 32 win spl will take a little time to do it's magic, even with a solid hit, but thats ok if you know what your doing. I've spent alot of days/week of my hunting time tracking blood trails made by guys I was hunting with or hunters I bumped into out in the woods. A lot of dark purple blood (liver) or little drops in the snow (could be anywhere on the edges) are a hard way to get your elk. I believe the guys that do the scouting, work up their loads and practice have a much lower shot to elk ratio regardless of the pea shooter or monster mag they use.

I should add I have tracked more wounded elk shot with 7 mags and 338's than any of the other rounds. But around here alot more guys seems to hunt with 7's and 338 anyway. I don't think anyone would dream of saying either of those rounds are not excellent elk medicine. What I do see are guys showing up at camp with less than a box of rounds through their rifle all year. Or worse yet a borrowed gun they have never shot. I find the more I hunt, the fewer new people I like to hunt with.

To me, careful shot placement means having the time to make an aimed shot at an animal that is presenting it's vitals at a distance you are practiced sufficiently to ensure a hit.

Bigger holes are better, but only if they are in the right spot on the animal. That's a platitude: what it really means is don't shoot a bigger gun than you are willing to practice with, unless you use a practice gun, or download your practice rounds.

Shooting is an acquired skill. Without practice, you don't acquire it. It's a lot easier to practice with a 308 than with a 338. Therefore, in many cases, the 308 is a better elk killer. JMO, Dutch.

Killsoft - "What's the experienced opinion on the 308 Win for Elk?"
___________________________________________________

My cousin, who has lived in the west for 40 years, Idaho, Colo., So. Dakota, Mont., and Utah, has killed 22 bull elk with his pre-'64 Win. 70 Featherweight .308 Win. Also an Idaho Shiras moose. He is a good hunter, and a good shot. He's had no problem with his .308 and elk.

FWIW. L.W.

I think people get a false sense of security from using the belted wonders. I watched a cow elk take a hit from a 375 HH at a lazered 219 yds. That bullet went thru her liver, lungs and lodged in the off side leg. Her reaction wasn't any different than if she'ld of been hit with a 270, she went about 50 yds before she piled up. Had she of been in the timber instead of in the open it might of been a pretty good trick to find her, the blood trail was virtually non existant.

It's not the fault of the chambering you choose that you make a crappy shot. If you're a good rifleman you're a good rifleman and making excuses about recoil or not being used to the scope or whatever is just silly.

Whatever round you choose you still have to make the shot that does the job. The difference between a higher energy round and standard ones is trajectory at ranges over about 300 yards, remaining impact energy out there, and deeper penetration at all of the ranges you shoot.

It's just a bit of (unrequired in most cases) insurance for the once in a while shots or follow up shots at less than perfect angles. It won't make a liver hit any more fatal but shooting less gun doesn't automatically make you a better shot.

Lots of African game was killed with the .303 British back in the day too. That doesn't make it the best gun for the job.

Being careful means ( my opinion)
practicing at longer ranges , not just at 100yds
practicing shooting kneeling, sitting, prone, and offhand.
practicing with different loads to check group and consistency
oh yeah, did I mention practice?
Art/Wyoming

Why is it assumed that if someone has a mag or big bore that they don't practice shooting.

I don't practice much with my .338-06. I don't have to.
All my rifles are built the same. They all have similar stocks. The triggers are all tuned the same. They all have the same mounts and similar scopes. The loads are very close for trajectory as well.

I can shoot all day long with my 7mm-08, and then pick up the .338-06 and hit what I'm aiming at because they feel the same. I don't adjust how I shoot to which rifle I have in my hands.

If you are saying that caliber doesn't make up for bad shot placemant I absolutely agree- kinda. This has been repeated so many times as to become the mantra of the small caliber set, but it does not necessarily translate into smaller calibers always being as good as larger. If we are shooting deer sized game maybe, but Elk are big and a .338 seems to hit them noticably harder than say a 30-06. Especially if the range stretches out a bit or the angle is less than perfect. Even when the game is deer I have never had anything put deer down in their tracks as consistently as a .338 and 200gr Ballistic Tip - but that is another story. When I hunt anything I want a caliber and bullet combination that can take the animal from any angle and any reasonable range. I also want to stop the animal as close to "in his tracks" as I can. For all of the above BIGGER IS BETTER. We all know about Bell and his 7x57 and elephants. I'm not Bell and sometimes my shot is less than perfect (can you imagine). Bigger has unquestionably bought me a few animals that would not have been mine otherwise. As for Texas heart shots, I may not start with one but I shoot until the animal is down. If it turns to run I will do my best to put one where the "sun don't shine" every time. Its not pretty but sometimes the actual killing just isn't.

Hey, let's turn this crazy subject around, just where do you think enough "BIGGER" is better. Do you stop at a boozka, howitzer or where, -- for game found here in the states?

I always thought any caliber large enough or strong enough to shoot through and animal was sufficent to kill it.
Just because handloaders work up a pet load for their favorite rifle all it does is kill the animal just like an over the counter load. Ammo companies spend thousands of dollars proving their components and they are appearently doing the job all over the world. The short comming lies with some of these "hunters" that take shots that are less than desireable and blame it on the caliber. We all hunt for many different reasons but the bottom line is we should be hunting for the food,(meat), trophy hunters hunt just to feed their ego, (look what I did, me great hunter). Look at my rifle, bigggg sucker, I can kill everything big enough to die!!! Think about it! Most don't hunt squirrels with a 3006, why not??? -- no

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Who hasn't shot squirls with an 'ol 06?

It can be done. Just make sure you use a premium bullet! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Instead of questioning why some people use bigger more powerful magnums on larger game let me ask why some people are so opposed to using bigger more powerful magnums on larger game?
Are they so nostalgic that they cant stand to leave their .270win/.30-06 at home or are they unable to shoot heavy recoiling guns accurately? I truly believe some people fall into the later category but will simply never admit it to themselves let alone others. I know someone is going to say �the older standard cartridges are proven performers that kill game every damn day�, that is certainly true but really isn�t my point since we�re talking about Elk.
If you can shoot a magnum as well as a .270win why in the world wouldn�t you shoot the magnum on Elk sized game?
Honestly I�m baffled� Is it because the older �standard� calibers kill just as effectively? If you mean more effectively as is a dead animal yes all guns/knives/pointed sticks perform identically. However when you talk about delivered energy at range then some calibers are simply and purely inferior to others for hunting Elk and larger game.
At 200yds a .270win 150gr sp has ONLY 1600ftlb, a .30-06 shooting 180gr sp has just over that same 1600ftlb of energy, compare both of those to a .300wby 180gr sp with 3200ftlb of energy. Obviously the .300wby is more effective than the .270win and the .30-06 and it gets even more effective as the ranges open up. The .300wby will carry 2000ftlb of energy out to 500yds when the .270win drops below 2000ftlb a little ways past 100yds, ditto the .30-06.
We shouldn�t be asking �why in the world do you shoot magnums on elk�. The question should be �why in the world DON�T you shoot magnums on elk�.

How about because my 30-06 fully loaded is 40in long and 7lbs? When it comes right down to it, I really like my 14" Contender really well.

I find it amazing the handgun hunters are perfectly happy with much less power than folks using standard rifles. They happen to kill elk just as dead. Maybe it's perspective. The 308/30-06/280 has been doing the job along time. What made it uneffective all of a sudden? Just how dead can you kill it? As I've said before, 300yds is my limit. If I can't get closer than 300yds the critter wins that round. If people can get close enough to use a bow or revolver, surely I can get close enough to use a 30-06.

300wby, this is the second thread I've noticed you bragging up the magnums. So now I've got a couple of questions for ya.
1. How many elk have you shot and with what cartridges, and what lead you to think you had to shoot a magnum.
2. If a magnum is necessary why did you settle on the 300 and not move on up to something like the 340,378, or 416?

300Wby
What is the minimum energy level required for Elk?
Mike D.

Again having to defend the choice of huntin with a magnum.



#1 I�ve killed 18 elk, 5 being bulls. I�ve never hunted Elk with anything other than 7mmrem (0 Elk), .300win (3elk) or 300wby (15 Elk). My longest shot on a cow was right around 340yds, shortest about 30yds and most being 150+. What �led me to think I had to shoot a magnum�, a combination of things really including the type of land we hunt in; high, open country. Also my choice has come from my father who always advocated shooting a bigger gun on bigger animals. Started me on .22lr then carried a .243, then shot my first buck with a .270win. When I graduated to the 7mm he took me hunting for elk. My father has shot .270win for deer and .300wby for elk ever since I can remember. BTW I don�t �have� to hunt elk with a magnum; it�s a choice not a mandate.

#2 Settle on a .300? A number of reasons: manageable recoil, shoots flat, hits hard. Another reason is depending on my tags I am hunting elk and deer at the same time. I think the 340, 378, 416 are too much for deer.

Anything else you wanna know? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That�s a rhetorical question right?

300Wby
You're promoting the use of magnums. I am curious to what your thoughts are for a minimum energy level that would be required to take an Elk.
Mike D.

So, 300 WBY, you've never hunted elk with a standard caliber rifle, and never seen one killed with one, either? In fact, all of your experience is with 300 magnums. You have no idea if a 308 would have done as well. Or a 243 for that matter.

If you had only hunted rabbits with the 300 WBY, then using your logic, are you also going to tell us that the 22 LR is inadequate for bunnies?

I have killed a few more elk than you have, 1 with a 308, 1 with a 30-06, and the rest with a 270. I have also seen about 40 shot besides the ones I have shot, mostly with 270/308 and 30-06 rifles. Ranges run from 20 yds or so, to distances with a 5 as the first number. Most between 200-350 yds, measured, not guessed at. Every elk hit soundly dropped within 100 yds, except one 4 pt hit with a 300 WBY at 200 yds, who ran 200 yds.

As you've never seen an elk fairly hit with a standard caliber rifle, you are in no position to comment about their adequacy. The only thing you can say from experience is that a 300 magnum is adequate.

I've heard that 1500 FPE is what you need to kill an elk.
I've heard that 2000 FPE is what you need to kill an elk.

But how about 2 Pound Seconds of Momentum? (Momentum is calculated by V*W/225,120, where V is velocity, and W is bullet weight.)

But that even is marginal for how effectively something will kill, isn't every number?

I don�t presume to know an exact number. Do you?

Here is a quote I just found.
"I will say that a serious long-range elk rifle should be able to deliver 2,000 foot/pounds of energy at 400 yards-and whatever point the energy falls below that figure is that cartridge's practical limit.
-Craig Boddinton �American Hunting Rifles� Copyright 1995

Mr. Boddington certainly knows more about cartridges and hunting than I do and I think he is unbiased and sensible.

That�s your own assumption I never said anything like that.


What in the world are you talking about? This thread has been a very reasonable discussion until now�


Of course! I wouldn�t expect anything but the best from you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Of course! The ONE animal you saw run was shot by a .300wby, how incredibly relevant to the topic at hand. LOL
I don�t doubt you, I just admire how your experiences are so in line with this topic in particular.


Again, that�s your own assumption I never said anything regarding that.


If we follow your logic as mentioned above then you have no position to say that anything other than your .270, .30-06 or .308 is needed.

Well said 270.

So 300WBY, now you're reduced to qouting a gunwriter and throwing around energy figures... the last refuge of the naive I'd say.

I couldn't give two figs what "energy" I hit an elk with... all I require is enough velocity to open the bullet and a decent diameter for blood leakage. A 308 Win has enough velocity at 500 yards to open a 168 TSX reliably. Put the bullet where it needs to go and all I require is expansion and penetration, which the 308/TSX combo has in spades.

300 WBY, you did in fact say that you'd only gone afield after elk with 7mm Rem, 300 Win or 300 WBY magnums. That's not an assumption, that's an admission. It may be possible that you saw someone shoot an elk once with a standard caliber rifle, but I doubt it. If it performed adequately, you seem to have ignored it, but if the animal ran away, I'm sure you'd be blaming the caliber.

I reach no conclusions from the elk that ran 200 yds after being shot with a 300 WBY. The ones hit with a 300 Win dropped just as quickly as the ones I have seen shot with a 270 or 308. The 300 WBY animal was shot at 250 yds....the ones with the 300 win from 300 yds to much further...leica rangefinder measured. I have six one shot kills the past seven years from 320 yds to beyond, all with a 270. The only one that ran was one that I hit in the liver. She laid down at about 600 yds, and I got her.

No, if you follow my logic, from what I have seen, the 270/30-06 class rifles are adequate for elk, and bigger stuff would be suitable as well. I've seen a good half dozen elk dropped with 300 magnums, and one shot with a 7mm Rem Magnum. I am not claiming the 300 WBY is inadequate, it just happens to be one data point, so it's not particularly telling about anything. The animals also ran downhill, which made it easier to go further.

I just choose to not jump to conclusions with inadequate data.

And, BTW, I hunt elk with a 300 WSM or a 270. I am just not clouded with any delusion that the 270 is inadequate. I get pass throughs at ranges that I will not post on this forum, using Nosler partitions. You like your Weatherby, fine. But anyone using a 30-06 or the like is well served.

No need to defend it , a little explanation was nice tho. If you want to use the 300 then by all means go for it, but until you have some true experience with the other cartridges, it may be best to quit bad mouthing them.
I've killed almost as many elk with the 243 as you have with your 300. Same with the 06. I've shot and seen elk shot with quite a few other cartridges and to tell the truth I've seen little difference in effect on the animal.
But your statement of bigger is better, but the 340,378, and 416 is to much sort of baffles me.

I'm learning lots even though things are getting heated.

My reasons for asking....

I'm on the downhill side of 50 and while it can be slowed down by visits to the gym, staying active, pacing my effort and so on, there's a certain amount of deterioration in one's body. Elk hunting in Alberta is tough, especially when hunting the high country and having to hike 5 to 8 miles a day with equipment and a 9 pound rifle. I have a wonderfully accurate 338 Win but it gets heavier with each passing year.

Going guided on horseback really isn't an option as those of you with college aged kids will agree. Besides being cheap, part of doing it yourself is in the challenge.

Having established that the 7# 30/06 that I use for deer is adequate for elk, what I'm interested in is this: Given that I may have to do some compromising (pass up long shots, avoid difficult angles, etc.), what are these compromises, what do I have to be careful about.

Thanks to your responses, I have a pretty good picture. I've never hunted with a small magnum before, 338 Win has been my smallest with the other a 375 H&H. I'm leaning toward the "small magnum for 400+ yard school" but with the practice that I get (300 rounds of 30 cal, 100 of other centerfire and a couple of bricks of 22), a 200 yard shot is a slam dunk, 250 is probably certain but at 300 with wind and exertion, I'm not sure I want to chance that on a live animal.

Having established that 300 is my max under "ideal" conditions, are there any limits set by standard cartridges. From what I see, just the angles if I understand your comments.

Thanks again!

Boreas I like the 165 gr bullet in the 06. My no 1 prefers Hornadys interloc. At 200 yds that bullet will do a complete pass thru on an elks ribcages.
My self I think 300 yds is a plenty to be shooting at game regardless of what the cartridge is. Just to many things can happen to the bullet between the muzzle and the critter beyond 300.
Find a good load in your rifle with a 165 or heavier bullets go forth have a good time, and post the pics of your bull for us.

A man after my own heart <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />! How does the recoil from your 7lb 30-06 compare to your 9lb 338mag?

Into what, a concrete block? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No flames intended, but do you have any reasonable amount of data to back up that claim?

I'm genuinely curious, as I have a 308 that I'd like to take elk hunting and the TSX looks like a nice bullet.
I'm leery about the cartridge having enough whizz to open it up, though.

KS

I taken Elk with 270,30-06 ,358 norma ,375 H&H and now I shoot a 45-70. All will do the job with good shot placement and knowing what your limitations are. I have notiest that some big bore shooter have a real problem with recoil and should spend more time with their rifle or go down to a lighter round.

I�m certainly not naive enough to reduce myself to getting personal. How about you? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yes I said that I have only hunted with those calibers. You, on the other hand, are the one that said I never saw an elk dropped with a standard cartridge. You don�t know me so don�t presume to make judgments about what I believe. If I saw one you doubt it, if it worked I ignored it, if it didn�t I laid blame? That�s all you man�.


Again, that�s all you. I never said anything of the sort. What I DID say was that I PREFER .300mags for elk. I know the 270 works on elk all the damn time I just said I like a bigger gun.

As I mentioned previously - I sometimes, depending on my tag situation, will be hunting elk and deer at the same time. Don�t you think a .340wby+ might be a bit much for deer? I like the .300 because it hits hard and it�s not into a realm of what I consider really punishing recoil. I can practice with my 300 reasonably often and have no ill effects induced from the recoil.

300, pointing out the obvious is not the same as "getting personal"...

Killsoft, a 168 TSX started at 2,750 fps will be going 1900 fps at 500 yds... while not super fast, that's enough to open one up. I used the 308 example as many consider it a marginal round for elk. I don't. If you're concerned about your bullet opening at long range use a Partition. Regardless, very few elk are shot at those ranges and are only for those that have practiced at those ranges, have a rangefinder, a steady rest and no cross wind.

Of course the 30-06 or .270 will kill Elk cleanly and effectively. NO ONE who has been there and done that argues otherwise. I took a nice 5x5 with my 270 and a 130 gr Nosler Partition but it wasn't by choice, it just happened to be what I had in my hand at the time and fortunately the range was very short. Interestingly enough on that occasion I immediately decided that the VERY BEST Elk rifle and caliber of all is the one you have in your hand when a big bull is standing right in front of you. Most of my western friends do tend to use non magnum calibers on Elk and I think I understand why. They all have much more time to hunt and scout than I do. They can afford to be more picky about what kind of shot they take and none have the money on the line for the hunt that I usually do. Most traveling hunters of my acquaintence tend toward magnums because they give you more options in the field. Guys, I love my 30-06 and have killed a truckload of game with it but trying to argue it is the equal of my .338 or .375 for anything over 500lbs. is just silly. IT IS NOT!!!!!!!!! I'm not talking about any stats I found in the back of some reloading manuel either. I know everyone on the internet always gets under 100 yards and ALWAYS gets their bullet into just the right spot having laid their tackdriver across their sweat stained old battered Stetson. Down and out with one well placed shot in less time than it takes to tell about it. Well, it doesn't usually work that way for me. Hell, I've missed! I've also put the bullet in less than the ideal place and I've put it in what looked to be exactly the right place but but it seemed nobody told the damned animal it was dead! If all of that hasn't happened to you then you are either very lucky or haven't pulled the trigger on enough game yet. Good hunting.

JBD, I have killed elk with the 338 WM and I have killed them with the 30-06. The 338 definately makes more of a visible impression when it hits. However, "dead is dead" and a bull hit with either correctly is not long for the world... elk are singularly unimpressed with "energy."

"The best elk rifle is whatever the best elk hunter has in his hands."

Well, that got me so lathered up I'm going to go apply for another Elk hunt - no foolin' got the Wyoming hunt application right here on the desk. Good luck to you all.

Nothing personal intended just asking a question.
As a matter of fact I don't think any of those would be overkill. I don't buy into ovekill under kill theories.
If a person did buy into that stuff then you'ld have to believe that none of the straightwalled handgun cartridges are adequate for killing game, and that would bring a huge uproar from folks that use the 44 mag and hot loaded 45 colts (myself included)
I also don't see the benefits of using a belted 30 unless a person moves up into the 200 gr+ bullets where the real advantages for those cartridges really lives.

In all fairness to 300WBY he has pick one of the best Elk calibers there is. I use the 300WBY most of the time at 500 yards it has more energy than my 30-06 has at 300 yards.

That being said I have killed a lot of Elk in my time when one lives on a Ranch these things happen. I have killed a half a dozen Elk with the 6mm Remington the longest shot with it was 290 yards with little to no meat damage hard to beat that

I have killed Elk with my 25-06 270 30-06 7mm .300Win .338Win and all of My Weatherby calibers that I own which include the .257WBY through the 340WBY.

If I�m shooting over 300 yards I will usually pick up a magnum. If I plan on shooting 500Yards out comes the .300Wby or my .340 maybe it�s just me but I like the .300 better than the 340.

You can kill Elk with any standard or magnum caliber. The trick is to take your time and make a good shot if you do not have a good shot don�t shoot its just that simple.

"dead is dead and a bull hit with either correctly is not long for the world..."

Brad's got it nailed. The .300 Mags are great for elk, but there are no flies on the .30-06.

And by the way, the energy figures for the .30-06 stated earlier don't match with the .30-06 that I shoot. I've used the 180-gr. Nosler Federal HE load in mine for elk, and it produces 2100 ft.-lbs at 300 yards.
This year, after reading JJHack's recommendation on this site, I put down an elk at approx. 300 yards with the 165-gr. Hornady Interbond bullet, loaded by Hornady in their Light Magnum line. I think the 300 yard energy level is around or just under 2000 ft.-lbs. The bullet made a pass-through at a slight angle, entering the rib cage and exiting the shoulder. Mr. Elk went about 20 yards and collapsed.

Brad calling me naive is getting personal. If you want to get personal get personal, don�t side step it can call it something it isn�t.

Brad, calling me naive is getting personal. If you want to get personal get personal, don�t side step it and call it something it isn�t.

--edit for spelling

Now that I'm on a roll, I might add that that Hornady LM IB load shoots some flat; using Cactus Jack's method of sighting 3" high at 100 this load is only 2" low at 300. I can shoot MPR up to 325. I'll continue to use this load for a while, thinking that it may turn out to be the one load to use for just about everything - antelope on a windy Alberta prairie day?

Do you guys, that get to go elk hunting every year, or have taken dozens, realize how lucky you are?

I'm 38 and have gotten to go just once. That was in 2002, and it doesn't look like I can go this year either. "If" I can go next year that will be 4 years in between trips! That will mean I can hunt elk about 5-7 days every four years. That doesn't give me a whole lot of extra time to be picky.

Now, I'm sure if I took my .257 Bob, I could probably kill an elk, if the proper shot presented it's self. But, I'm not going to take my chances on a once-in-four-year trip, on getting a perfect shot. I'm going to take my .338-06 and take the shot that presents it's self. Whether it's head on, an angling shot through the guts up to the vitals or (though I'd hate to ruin the meat) one in through the out door. The only thing I won't do is take a running shot or shoot past 300 yards. Those are my personal limitations under field conditions.
I'm going to use what makes me confident that it will do what I want done. I want something bigger than "adequate".

Teeder I realize how lucky I am to get to go every year. I also know that taking a marginal shot with any cartridge on any game animal is likely to end up leaving a pit in your stomach that don't go away anytime soon, if you have any consideration for the animal being hunted. Gut shot elk don't bleed much can travel far and most of the time don't get found, and die a slow lingering death.
You owe it to yourself and the animal to pick your shots.
And always keep in mind that even on the best years 60 percent of licensed elk hunters don't fill a tag. So if you don't get a shot and go home empty handed you're in fine company.

Teeder

Yes I�m lucky to have a Ranch to hunt on and to look at Elk and Deer every day. And I thank God that he has blessed me with that.

Every time that I hunt off the Ranch, which isn�t very often the luckier, I feel about having it to hunt on. I do feel for those not so lucky to have a place to hunt.

Teeder

I would say you would be better off taking a 350-yard shot with a good rest through the lungs than to shoot any thing in the gut at any range. Elk are a living animal and like Ranch13 said there is nothing worst than a wounded animal. I have seen Elk wonder in on the Ranch that have been shot and wounded jaws hanging down legs blown off not a good site.

So I get on the phone and call fish and game tell them that there is a wounded Elk and they tell me to shoot it and put it down. Right now I have a 5x5 bull with an arrow stuck up behind his front shoulder. That somebody shot in archery season he will make it but there is not anything worse than watching an animal suffer. So please take your time and take a good shot

No offense meant and no flame taken, but No $hit! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you reread my post I said "through the guts up to the vitals". I'm not going to just aim for the guts! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> There is such thing as angling toward a vital area. Every shot taken is angling towards the vitals in some way, whether it's through the guts or through the shoulder.

I know there is a chance I won't get a shot at an animal, but why decrease the odds with a lesser cartridge, when I have something more powerful that I'm just as proficient with? I think Big Stick has made a comment something like "He makes his own luck". Well I'm trying to increase mine.

Just because I haven't hunted elk all my life doesn't mean I don't know what type of shot to take. I've hunted for 26 years and have taken dozens of whitetails with rifles, bows, and flintlocks. They have a lot smaller kill zone, and I don't have them running away dying a lingering death. I'm not going to take a maginal shot just because I have something bigger than a .270 in my hands.

Teeder if you have to take a quartering away shot hold just a tad high. If the bullet gets down into the paunch it going to have to plow thru probably close to 100 lbs of grass,sticks, water etc. If the bullet passes just above all that and goes thru the parentanial cavity, it'll stand a better chance of getting into the lungs.
Good luck on your next hunt hope you get a good one.

Ok, you guys caught me.
Yes, I'm the guy that always aims for the bladder. I throw everything that I've ever been taught out the window when the almighty elk is the intended game animal.

Next time I'm going to aim for the hocks. Maybe that will work! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hasn't anyone on this board ever taken a quartering away shot at an animal that nicks the freakin' guts? Aim for the off shoulder with a good bullet, and you'll plow right through the vitals. No, it isn't the "perfect shot" but how often does the perfect shot show up.



Yet again, I say, No $hit!

Who said I was going to start flinging lead all over the mountain side? I'm a very careful shot. I know my limitations and pass on shots every year. I had a 22 inch whitetail 8 yards from my stand this year in archery season. I was at full draw but didn't shoot beacuse there was "slightly" too much brush in the way.
I've hunted black bears in PA since I was 12 and had never seen one until 1999. That morning I saw two. One that I thought was a cub, which is legal in PA, and the other that all I had was an ass shot (that wouldn't angle up to the vitals). I passed on both, so don't lecture me on going home empty handed.

All I'm trying to say is I want more cartridge for a bigger animal. Is it that hard to understand? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Looking forwards to hearing how your elk hunt turns out.

I think the best elk cartridge is one that an individual shoots well and has confidence in. Personally I think the .338 WM is the perfect elk rifle but that is what I've had success with. In all reality the confidence I have in it is probably more important than the ballistics. To the hunter that feels the same way about his .308, 30-06, 270, .300, 7mm, etc I say "well done" and at the end of the day am happy to raise a toast around the fire to grand adventures and good shooting.

Jeff

I don't think anyone is claiming that a standard caliber will not do the job on an elk. I have a 30-06, a 35 whelen and of course my 338wm. I like the margin of safety with the 338wm pushing a 225 grain bullet over my 30-06 with a 180 grain bullet. I load my 35 whelen with a 250 grain bullet. The whelen(remington 7600) is my timber gun and I would not consider shooting anything any where with it more than 250-300 yards. I find myself reaching for the 338wm everytime I open the gunsafe to head out elk hunting. tom

Even though this has become a long and flammable thread, I will venture an opinion. There are two different kinds of elk hunting--cow/spike and big bull. Cows and spikes are not so large that they cannot be ethically hunted with mid range calibers. For one thing, if you pass on a shot, there is a pretty good likelihood of seeing another. So taking a .257 Roberts/7-08 sort of caliber doesn't seem that odd. But big bulls are a different proposition. Harder to kill, harder to draw the tag (10+ years of preference points in UT and CO for some units), harder to find (public land) and/or very expensive (private land). For all of those reasons--none of which have to do with the ballistic minutia that abounds on these pages--a big bull gun for me starts at .30 magnums.

Teeder

I hope I didn�t offend you in any way. And I�m sure you are more than qualified to hunt. It�s just that a have had a lot a Elk show up on the Ranch over the years that have been shot and got away from people.

I have killed Elk several years after they were wounded and have found jacketed out bullets on the shoulders just under the hide. Some had the tops off their shoulder blades broke and the tops off backbones shot off. That�s way I also use premium bullets.

I just like to have all hunters to take the best shot possible, Cause when there hunt ends and they all go home I get to see the wounded game come down on the Ranch and suffer this is what most hunters don�t see. And I have seen this for years. Again this is no flame toward you.

Thanks, but don't hold your breath. It may be a long time before I can get to go again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
It's too hard to spend the money on "me" and too hard to get away from the lab for more than a couple days.

All right, boys and girls, pet peeve time.

If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. "The locals can hunt all the time, so they can afford the standard calibers".

That, my good friends, is the biggest crock foisted on the public. The only difference between most locals and most out-of-staters is the number of days in the woods. When they are in the woods, they all see the same number of elk butts disappearing into the timber. There are LOTS of locals coming home without elk every year.

Why do locals hunt with their 243's and their 270's? Because they have seen a LOT more elk killed than the out-of-staters, and they realize that there isn't a hill of beans difference, "at reasonable ranges", in killing power. And they probably still have a bad taste in their mouth from the last 400 yard shot.

Just don't give me the hooey about "having plenty of time to kill an elk". That's just a crock. We are as desperate to lay one over as any out-of-stater. We just don't like paying $3.50 per cartridge for the priveledge of being kicked like a mule while we do it.... JMO, Dutch.

Hey Joe,

No ploblem. I understand your position. I have a hard time trying to get my feelings across using two fingers on a keyboard and didn't mean to sound ticked off. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I tend to get typing fast (for me) and I'm sure my statements are short. (And besides, I'm at work and shouldn't be on here) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I see the same thing around here in deer season. 99 out of 100 bozo's in the woods emptying their .270, 7 mag, and 06 Game blasters at every patch of fur they see. The only time they shoot their gun is 24 hours before the season opens.

If and when I ever get another shot at an elk, I'm going to do everything I can to put the bullet where it needs to go. I say all the better that it will be a 225 grain .338 leaving the muzzle @ 2700fps.

Yes, and you don't have to drive 27 hours to get there, and pay $470.00 for bull tag, and $270.00 for a muley tag, and $300.00 in fuel, get all the camping gear, food for a week (maybe on the last two), and wait four years in between hunts. All that plus hope that the spot you pick on a topo map actually has an elk there, and you can find it.

Crock or not. It sure looks like locals have an advantage.

And, there is no way you can tell me there isn't a difference between a .243 and a .338 mag on an elk. I see every year what a .243 does on whitetails. I grew up using 6mm's on deer. I know their wound channels. There's no way in hell I'm going to go through all the trouble I wrote about above and let it all ride on shooting an elk with a .243.

I guess I'm just not a good enough hunter.
I'm done ranting now! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Grimel: Briefly put, both recoils crisp. I don't notice the difference on the shoulder for either but the 338 has lots more climb and if I'm not careful, it smacks my cheek on occasion.

I have Pachmayer Decelerators on both and I wear a Past magnum recoil shield on the range. Also at the range, I have both moulded ear plugs and muffs and I get off the bench once I verify that my sighting is still on. There seems to be a lot less recoil standing, kneeling or sitting. I've never taken a prone shot with the 338 and probably never will.

One thing about getting older, it doesn't bother me to shoot wimpier guns than the 30 year old beside me.

Teeder
I was raised in NW Pa. and got out of there in the 70's, I think the hardest thing for eastern hunters out here is they tend to think you'll only get 1 chance and if you miss your not going to fill you tag. I normally get to hunt about 4 days a year for elk and I'll see elk everyday. Here's my top things to do to get elk.
1 Get in shape
2 Know you weapon and practice with it
3 learn to use binocs in and out of timber
4 Buy good maps.
5 Get as much info on the game you seek as you can,watching video of canned hunts don't count.
You will still have to pay your due's but you'll see more elk .

Teeder

Two fingers!!! Wow that�s 50% better than me that�s no s$it. LOL. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Boreas,

Thank you. That's about what I figured. I'm all for as light a rifle as I can a) hold steady (those 5lbers don't get it); b) doesn't knock my boots off; and c) gets the job done on the shootee.

Joe,

LOL! It's taken years of practice! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

surely a standard chambering would work just fine on a standard shot at a standard elk.
it all depends on your standards.

My standard reply would be that, I agree with you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
But, don't forget the standard bullets at standard velocities.

Beauty part is you can shoot what you want and no one here gives a hoot as long as "you" are happy. Natives have the advantage of knowing elk hangouts but when season starts with all the traffic beginning in August with people in the field, it's just being in the right place at the right time and I say again, "any caliber capable of shooting through an animal is sufficent to kill it" whatever the size of each. Bull elk are larger, stronger, but die just like any other elk with a hole through the vitals. If you are making bad shots perhaps you should not be taking them to start with, ever hear of a "hope" shot? Perhaps the cannon guys are relying toooo much on their caliber to take care of their mistakes.

As for the rancher who sees all the wounded animals, great to know what caliber they were shot with. Any time you have a hunting season there will be wounded animals, if everyone out there had a cannon you would still see wounded animals, what kind of authority is that?
Just like automobile accidents, some live some die, there is always that percent. Many here on this board have several elk rifles and choose what they feel is best under the conditions of their hunt. -- no <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
-

Give me a break!! I thought the flames had cooled down on this thread finally. Guess I was wrong....

300wby, did you get in touch with Frank and have coffee? As for the thread, flames were not intended, who cares what anyone else shoots, I just get tired of hearing about pip squeak calibers when the game departments set the standards. BTW, I was a warden just over the line South of where you are right now. You are in a great part of the state for outdoor activities, maybe not for making a living but all sports are at your fingertips with the mountains, lake, streams, plenty of public land. Down in the valley you don't get much snow do you? You are far enough out you don't get all the city slickers every weekend. Just look at the summer tourist as people bringing money for you to live on all winter. Ask Frank about his motorcycle and tell him Sonnie said HI. Hope to see you guys when Red Mountain Pass opens up this spring. I was the first car over it in a snow storm, 4" on the road and me breaking trail in a Ford sedan, when I topped out and started down going South toward Silverton, no guard rails, a fer piece to the bottom the seat in my company car took a beating. Swore I wouldn't be guilty of doing that again. I had just dropped off some hunters at Ouray and trying to get back to Farmington before it really got bad. Telluride was just a little mining town at that time. Frank killed a moose up by Creede about three years ago, he knows the area where you are if you need help. -- no

need one

Well I have dug out .22 caliber .277 .284 .308 to be exact, I kept a couple of them to show people the importance of premium bullets.

The .30 caliber bullet that I have kept is completely trashed The .277 looks good but it just ran out of gas as it hit the shoulder it broke the top of the shoulder plate bone had it of had more energy there would have been a dead Elk.

The .30. Caliber was just under the hide on the shoulder with about a 12 inch circle of lead around it had it been a premium bullet it would have been dead.

I always use a premium bullet and take my time and make sure I have a good shot that�s the reason I have killed Elk with the 6mm Rem. to the .340WBY and never lost an animal.

Its not what you use it�s how you use it that counts.

I will get some help and post some pictures maybe somebody can tell me what kind of bullet the .277 is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

need one

Well I have dug out .22 caliber .277 .284 .308 to be exact, I kept a couple of them to show people the importance of premium bullets.

The .30 caliber bullet that I have kept is completely trashed The .277 looks good but it just ran out of gas as it hit the shoulder it broke the top of the shoulder plate bone had it of had more energy there would have been a dead Elk.

The .30. Caliber was just under the hide with about a 12 inch circle of lead around it had it been a premium bullet it would have been dead.

I always use a premium bullet and take my time and make sure I have a good shot that�s the reason I have killed Elk with the 6mm Rem. to the .340WBY and never lost an animal.

Its not what you use it�s how you use it that counts.

I will get some help and post some pictures maybe somebody can tell me what kind of bullet the .277 is.

This is always a fun topic: how much gun is enough. Contemporary logic seems too often to suggest that only a magnum is enough to shoot elk. Hooey! When I was a kid here in western CO, almost none of us "locals" shot magnums because the damned things kicked too hard. We shot '06's and .270's and 30-30's far more than anything else. The 30-30 was mostly carried horseback and used for short shots after quickly bailing off the horse. I guided for over 20 years, and most of the guests did better with "standard" rounds because they could shoot them well. In my opinion, and I'll admit I have a lot of them, the magnums come in to their own for elk when ranges start stretching beyond 300 yds. Personally, I can see no use for anything bigger than a .300 mag untill one begins shooting at elk beyond 5 or 600 yds. Very specialized shooting now. The CO div. of wildlife states that a rifle must be of .24 cal. shooting a bullet of at least 85 gr. delivering a minimum of 1000 ft lbs at 100 yds to be a legal big game round. I like a little more than that, but I've seen enough elk killed with just such a round to know it will effectively do the job if the hunter is "careful". So, what is careful? I would say practicing enough to be able to positively place your bullets where they need to be, within the effective range of both ones' ability and the relative power of the cartridge, and having the presence of mind to quickly determine a questionable shot from a clearly "doable" one.

This is always a fun topic: how much gun is enough. Contemporary logic seems too often to suggest that only a magnum is enough to shoot elk. Hooey! When I was a kid here in western CO, almost none of us "locals" shot magnums because the damned things kicked too hard. We shot '06's and .270's and 30-30's far more than anything else. The 30-30 was mostly carried horseback and used for short shots after quickly bailing off the horse. I guided for over 20 years, and most of the guests did better with "standard" rounds because they could shoot them well. In my opinion, and I'll admit I have a lot of them, the magnums come in to their own for elk when ranges start stretching beyond 300 yds. Personally, I can see no use for anything bigger than a .300 mag untill one begins shooting at elk beyond 5 or 600 yds. Very specialized shooting now. The CO div. of wildlife states that a rifle must be of .24 cal. shooting a bullet of at least 85 gr. delivering a minimum of 1000 ft lbs at 100 yds to be a legal big game round. I like a little more than that, but I've seen enough elk killed with just such a round to know it will effectively do the job if the hunter is "careful". So, what is careful? I would say practicing enough to be able to positively place your bullets where they need to be, within the effective range of the cartridge, and having the presence of mind to quickly determine a questionable shot from a clearly "doable" one.

Joe, while I believe what you are saying you didn't see the shots, you don't know the range, (distance), to the animals in question. I observed two guys laying on a ridge, one was doing the shooting , the other was handing ammunition. The shooter was shooting into an elk herd above timber line God only knows how far or what he was hitting, shot over twenty times with the herd stumbling around not knowing which way to run. Irresponsible hunters are among us, they think anytime they see an animal it's time to shoot. Most out of staters with little time, (heck the seasons are only five days now), and much expense think they must try any shot presented, sad but true. ---- Got to get in bed, going down to Boggys in the morning for a hog hunt. Got the trunk full of rifles to sight in. Take care, -- no
-

Hi NO,

Nice to see you back.

need one, I havent made contact with your friend yet. I will as we get closer to spring. When I get in touch with him I'll certainly tell him you said hello.
Thanks Sonnie!

Shoot as much gun as you can ACCURATELY shoot and don't shoot any greater distance than you can reliably hit a 1 foot square, and you should have no problems (except for rear quartering shots mentioned already, which need long heavy bullets & more energy to penetrate.

Thanks Teeder, I got to playing with a bunch of old Air Force drill instructors for about a year. Trying to get their Asociation going, looks like everything fine now. We have had three Conventions back at Lackland AFB in San Antonio and they treat us like visiting royalty. Been much fun but the light of the Campfire and my old log called me back. Thanks for remembering. --no

Just so I can get in the big fight...

What do the anti-magnum folks have to say about using a smaller caliber rifle for practice that's set up just like the big gun? For instance--using a .243 Sucks with a crisp 3# trigger and Leupy 6x42 all spring and summer for 100 - 200 shots a month practice, then hauling out the .338 Ultra Mag Sucks with crisp 3# trigger and Leupy 6x42 for actual hunting? The trajectory is almost exactly the same (at least through 300 yards) for the vast, vast majority of all shooting. I know wind drift and other variables may be slightly different, but not enough to make a hunting difference at up to 300 yards. The only difference other than weight (which would give the marksmanship advantage to the .338) is that follow up shots (which we all know shouldn't be necessary) would not be similar in any way.

What say you?

FYI--I haven't joined the magnum revolution (yet) and have nothing against using or not using magnums for elk.

I think any and all practice is better than none. I had a .223 AI built for the sole purpose you mentioned, cheaper trigger time. I'll still do quite a bit a practice with my .338 Win, but will lean on the 223AI for getting better at trigger control, field positions, shooting out of breath etc...

ANY practice is good practice and will improve your marksmanshipedness.

Anti magnum? Not hardly, I just think you don't need one, and I own a 300 WSM. But for most folks the best elk rifle is the one you can hit the lungs with. I have never seen, nor reliably heard of, elk going down with a marginal hit from anything. They are tough animals, with incredible resolve, and edge hits mean long tracking jobs or lost animals.

Patrick Smith said it well:

1. Shot placement
2. Shot placement
3. Shot placement
4. Use enough bullet
5. Use enough gun.

Dryfiring will help trigger control more than any live round. Buy yourself a couple snap caps for the heavy hitter and get used to s-q-u-e-e-e-e-e-z-ing the trigger. It will also help you lose the jerk you may have developed. Your body starts to remember that each time you drop the hammer, it DIDN'T hurt. Trigger control and flinch fighting is a huge head game.

NEVER shoot any gun until it starts to hurt. NEVER pick a calibre that will hurt to shoot. Like kcm270 said - shot placement. Enough bullet and enough gun are made significantly smaller by shot placement. Just a penny's worth, doesn't even qualify as 2 cents.

kpmtns, your approach isn't a bad one. I'ld throw in that while shooting the light rifle take the big one along as well, shoot a magazine full or 2 with full house loads, and shoot some reduced loads just for staying familiar with the rifle.
I'm not ani magnum, just get a littel weary seeing all the bashing of non magnum cartridges , by folks who have little to no experience with them.

Exactly.

I would have to somewhat disagree with you on this. At some point you need to build up your shoulder. IMHO it's a good idea to shoot some of the heavier recoil rifles before the season starts. I like to mix in some 22 LR or lighter recoiling rifles in the mix to combat flinch and/or trigger panic but you can learn to control heavy recoiling rifles. If you learn to shoot a heavy recoiling rifle well the smaller ones are a piece of cake. You just have to take them in reasonable doses.......DJ

So, I don't have to get a new gun for my elk hunt this fall?

Darn. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, a new gun is always needed

Never, never, ever turn down an excuse to buy a new rifle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Look, you can't trade in your wife, or get two new ones because they look cute.

But you can with guns...!!!!!!!

Get a new rifle, and then, because it looks lonely, get another one.

Who hasn't shot squirls with an 'ol 06?


It can be done. Just make sure you use a premium bullet.

But be carefull, I hear they charge when they're wounded!

Yea, it's nice to have two at once!

Don't let ANYTHING that has been said here be construed as meaning you don't need a new gun. Yes, you NEED a new gun, and then another...and another.. and... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

kpmtns, I agree with that logic. Of course that does necessitate a new rifle <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I bought a Kimber Montata last summer in .243 just for this reason, and because it filled another need, which was for an ultralight marmot rifle so I wouldn't over work myself hunting above timberline. I really like this rifle, so much in fact, that when I saw the limited edition 8400's I bought one of them too. A .300WSM. I think of it as a lovely example of the classic american sporting rifle, that serves absolutely no useful purpose in my small collection except to get it down and pet it now and then, and to shoot it when I need a break from my other .300. As previously mentioned, never miss an opportunity to have another rifle. Need need have nothing to do with it. (did I also mentioned I'm not married <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Cobrad, How does your 8400 FW shoot? I'm hope you're enjoying it........DJ

I just got in from testing seating depths with the 8400. I have been shooting three shot groups at 100 yds. Several groups have been in the 1/4 inch range, with the worst in the area of 2". I have found a couple of loads that seem to consistently shoot in the .8's. I will be happy if I can find a hunting load that will consistently shoot MOA, and it appears this will be no problem. With my 84 Montana, in .243, my smallest 3 shot group is a .178, and that rifle too seems to shoot consistently around 3/4"with best loads so far.

I like the 338, and it is fairly popular up here in Montana as an Elk rifle. It is accurate, manageable and it has enough retained energy to do the job out past 300 yards easily. I dont particularly care for long shots but they are a fact of life in some of the good elk areas here. Thats where the 338 shines. I have shot one bull with my 45-70 Winchester carbine while chasing cows once.

The .338 is popular here too, though I have always favored a .300. My reasoning is that 30 cal 200 gr bullets have a higher BC and sectional density than similar .338's, and shoot flatter out to 500 yds while retaining more energy, assuming similar velocites. Splitting hairs perhaps. To me the .338 gains the advantage over the .300's when shooting the 250 gr bullets.

CoBrad, to me the 338's advantage is barrel length... 21-22" barrels work to perfection while the 300's really require a 24" (+) barrel. Call me odd, but 20-22" barrel's just "feel" better to me!

Had the barrel of my Ruger 77 SS chopped to 19" six or seven years ago. Can't tell the difference in shooting it but handling and carying plus in vehicle is a great plus. -- no

I was always told to hunt with as much gun as you feel comfortable with. You feel comfortable in the .300 Wby and your ability to perform with it. I feel this is the most important thing.
You said that you felt comfortable with the .300 because it was the highest degree of recoil you could manage and because you felt larger cals may be too much for smaller game. Both of these are arbitrary--they vary with individuals. I use a 7mm Rem Mag for much the same reasons.
I agreed with you until you started quoting energy figures. I am not too sure elk study energy figures and very little of what I see in reality would leave me to believe that energy matters much to anyone but the guy behind the rifle. I've seen a garage full of elk killed with a 7mm Rem Mag. I've seen elk hanging in my childhood neighbor's yard year after year shot with a .243 Win and Remington Corelokts. My family has never seen an elk get away when they did their part and put the right bullet in the right place--and they use 06s almost exclussively. You asked why someone would ever take a .270 elk hunting when they could shoot something larger just as well--maybe because you've never seen a need to. Not entirely a concept I agree with myself, but whatever works. I am not advocating using a .243 for elk. I wouldn't. But it sure as heck worked for Bob Altmiller. I've never shot an elk myself. I'd love to, but haven't managed to put myself in that situation. But the more I see from other people, the more I remain convinced that shot placement and bullet selection matter far more than cartridge selection. Not implying you said otherwise here, but I just don't see what all the hoopla is about one way or another.

Rifles are as unique as the individuals that shoot them. I think that is what appeals to most of us. I find other people's tastes intriguing. I think I have a pretty good set up with 160 gr Noslers in my Remington and a Leupold on top. Others may agree or disagree and may have personal experience to back this that points in both directions. We can have discussions, but I don't like seeing hostility among friends, and I try to not judge other people's rifles any more than I would judge them because, like I said, it is 95% personal taste and arbitrary numbers that are largely B.S, and 5% actual fact, if such a thing can be defined in this field.

For crying out loud people, it's hunting, not rocket science. Shoot the largest gun you're comfortable with, pick a good bullet, take good shots, and enjoy your vension.

That's my two-cents [steps off soap box]...

Boreas,
congrats!! You really started something here.
Keeps you amused during the time our toy shop "wholesale" is closed.
My take: I have shot elk and moose with the .270, 30-06, .308 Win., 35 Whelan, ..300 Weatherby., .338 Win.
I used 150 and 160 Nosler Partitions with the .270, 200 NP in the 06, 180 NP in the .308, 180 NP in the .300 Weatherby.,
270 Bitter root bonded bullets in the 35 Whelan, 225 and 250 NP in the .338.
When bones in the front half get hit, the .338 and .358 cals. always gets into the boiler room. With rib-shots, there was no iota of difference between any of the large and small bores.
The problem child was the .300 Weatherby. On big bone hits at short range the 180 Nosler blew up on a 4 year old moose leg bone, the rear halve sailed away at 90 degrees angle. Necessitating another shot. Spoiling the meat for consumption in that front quarter, and that of other moose, also hit in the ribs with that load.
My fault for picking a fast stepping 180 grain Nosler partition instead of a 200 or heavier weight at lower speed. The 180 NP would be great at open country shooting over 200 yards.
The 35 Whelen with 270 Bitter roots @ 2240 fps. shoots length wise through moose, and was a reliable killer in the trees.
The .338 does well for me at long and short range, like the 35 it leaves double blood trails.
The smaller bores with the Nosler partitions kill moose and elk with boring reliability with heavy for caliber Nosler partitions but take a little more care to avoid sharp angle shots and big bones.
I go for moose and elk any day with full confidence if all I had was my .270/ .308 Win./30-06.with my favourite loads.
However I do have a nice handling accurate .338 I love, and pick it now when I go for elk and moose specificly.

Boreas -

IMHO the .30-06 is more than "enough gun" for shots on elk out to 300 yards. Load it up with good 180g bullets and practice until you know where it shoots and you can place the bullet where you want from field positions. None of the elk I've taken with my 7mm Mag and 160g Grand Slams would have survived a 180g .30-06 bullet in the same place, and there haven't been any that a .30-06 couldn't have reached.

For quartering away shots I would prefer a controlled expansion bullet like (in no particular order) the Barnes TSX, Swift A-Frame, North Fork, or Speer Trophy Bonded. All of the aforementioned have bonded cores except the TSX which is solid copper. I haven't tried the Swift Scirroco bullets (also bonded) but I think they would be excellent. The Nosler Partion is a proven performer as are the Speer Grand Slams. I'm not sold on the Nosler Accubond or Hornady Interbond for elk-sized game, but they will probably perform very well at .30-06 velocities.

Standard cartridges work fine, but the exotic cartridges sound better around the campfire.

I think RemFan put it down right. Have you noticed that the gunwriters in the mags, all seem to start shooting and dropping down to submagnums after they get older, extolling the virtues of these.

This Forum is a great source of information and I sure have learned a lot from it.

Shrike, I am surprised that Wholesale hasn't reoppened yet. I thought they were just going to shut down over Christmas so they could get their inventory moved. In all honesty, I haven't set foot in their store for a few months now. I get all of my components from P&D. They're ever so slightly more expensive but they have their components in the open so if you want several boxes of bullets from the same lot you can get them. Sometimes at Wholesale, if I ask for the same lot number I get a balnk stare. Sorry about the above comments, I don't usually plug businesses but those folks seem to be real nice and helpful.

What have I learned from this thread/ Wity MY kind of hunting needs, I can confidently take my 30/06 and 180 or 200 partitions. I am only confident in my ability to accurately (12 inch circle 95% of the time) place shots at 200 to 225 from a sitting position and prone with a backpack out to maybe 250 to 300. At those distances I should have time to get steady or find a rest and pass if I can't do either.

I won't miss that extra 50 yards of range with my 338 Win mag or its 9# weight. The nice thing about being old is that you don't have to be ashamed of admitting that you can't do something.

For aobut 15 years I hunted EVERTHING w/ a .338. Now I hunt w/ .25/06 or .270. All I can say is "less filling, tastes great".

You have to use what pleases you(as long as it is legal) weather or not it pleases someone else is a moot point. tom

Tom, I would hunt elk with everything you have listed and several you don't have listed. -- no <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, I bought an elk rifle. It's a Sako M995 TRGS, and yes, it's a magnum. It's a 30-378 Weatherby magnum! I don't know if I can kill anything with it but it does have maximum campfire value. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> A table at the latest gun show had 2 of them. Supposedly, 2 guys had a gunsmith sight them in, took them out west to shoot elk, and never finished the first box of ammo. The bore looks pristine. I got it for $550 including a set of extremely high Sako scope mounts.

Anybody know anything about this rifle? I haven't found much on the web. I never heard of it until I found these 2 at the gun show. My buddy got upset with me because I just had to 1-up his new 300 Win Mag Savage. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would guess that if ever there was a gun that needed "hard" bullets, this is it. I doubt the average 180 grain plastic tipped bullet will penetrate an elk shoulder at 3500 fps. I bought a box of factory Weatherby ammo with 180 grain X-bullets. At $86.95 per box, that is the LAST box of factory ammo I will buy. The RCBS dies were only $25.

If it shoots well (don't know yet) I should be able to aim dead-on an elk out to 400 yards. That's why I bought the fire-breathing dragon in the first place. The muzzle flash is downright impressive. The recoil is significant, but tolerable. If you can shoot a 3-inch mag 12 gauge, you can certainly shoot this thing. I would compare it to a 3-1/2 inch 12 gauge, but nothing I've shot compares to the recoil of those things.

I was reading this thread .. hmmmmmm

I was reading this thread .. hmmmmmm
if you can kill a elk with sharp pointed stick slingers (bow and
arrows) then with proper placement most anything should kill
one ... I was planing to use a savage 99 in 358win for 0 to
200yrd hunting this fall .. now I guess I'll have to reconsider
my options and buy a bow :-) .. so how does a bow figure
into the "whatever point the energy falls below that figure is
that cartridge's practical limit" .. {just spoofing ya'll}

Talon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rogue, I really do not know how you and other outfitters like you can tolerate some of the hunters you have to work with. All of the effort it takes to put someone in the position to make a shot and have them blow it simply because they never practice with their rifle. I have been on several guided hunts and I understand the pressure that can be on the hunter. You are in a strange land, planned long for the trip, spent considerable money and it all comes down to one shot. I am an average shot but I do make sure my gear is in good condition, make sure that I am in reasonable shape and practice, practice, practice. So far, I have enjoyed great luck on my traveling hunting adventures. I now "guide" my kids deer hunting and I am beginning to see what it takes from a guides perspecitive, at least a little. I work hard to put them into position for a shot and it is a real thrill when they connect.

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seriously... common...
serious LR Elk Rifle. no, no, no,no.. this is not long range and the whole energy ft lb thing is pretty rediculous inside of 500 yards. Keep in mind Mr. Boddington has to and cannot say certain things. After all it is for a magazine and we all know how much truth is in rags and newspapers.
2000 ft lbs is not a min. for Elk. Accuracy is more important than anything. Bullet and bullet placement play as much of an important roll as do the power of a rifle. I personally wouldn't hunt Elk with a 243. because the bullets are way to light but that doesn't mean I need a 416 Rigby either.
Use a rifle that you can shoot accuratly to 500 yards and posess' enough energy to drive your choice of bullet into the boiler room taking into consideration you may have to go through bone to get there.
If you buy a HUGE magnum caliber and you cannot shoot it accuratly, you have a very expensive garden stake. Likewise if you buy a very light caliber and cannot get to the boiler room you now have 2 very expensive garden stakes.

use common sense.

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Like Teeder, I just don't get out to Wyoming or Colorado often. An Elk hunt is a sometime thing for me. I carry a Ruger #1 in .416 Remington. I shoot it well, I have confidence in it, and it kills Elk.
Whether others agree with my choice of rifle and caliber does not bother me one bit. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />