Who uses Berger bullets for elk? Results/experiences please.

Not worth a **it! Very thin jacketed bullets are good on light skinned animals. I much prefer the Barnes, Noslers or even better yet the Hornady Spire Point.

Bergers are tact drivers on paper, but I always tend to go with another maker when it comes to elk and bigger game.

Relay your experiences that formed your opinion, s'il vous plait. I was thinking of using them on elk, but not if they're good for nothing besides driving tacts (sic).

They kill elk dead.

Blah, blah blah.... How many [bleep] elk have you shot with Bergers? Feel free to talk crap. I prefer Sierra Game Kings cause they are cheap, fly straight and the elk tip over. Feel free to knock those.
P.S. I have tipped a few elk over with Bergers.

The [bleep] talking on these boards by do nothings with no experience is killing me. Time to log off for a few weeks.

Berger 168 gr - 30-06
1. Elk at 90 yds. Walked 10yds after the shot and dropped.
2. Elk at 205 yds. Stood where shot for 5 seconds and laid down -- forever.
3. Elk at 309 yds. Turned to one side and laid down -- forever.

3 for 3 textbook performance every time.

Work for me -- YMMV

Berger VLD's will definitely kill elk, but only if you put a VLD in the right place. That's the major trick with any elk bullet!

Do a search. Tons of info. People either love them, or hate them. You need to use them to decide. I used the Berger, and decided another bullet did what I needed better. mtmuley

I hear that!

Tossed a flyer to the right last shot before the season one year.
Last bullet shot, should have given me the fouling I wanted. The other shots were fine.

I knew better then re-adjust the scope, but that hole to the right of where it should have been stuck in my mind.

My chance, my bull trotting with a herd from my left to right. Came up on an open firing-lane and I took the shot! One you can't miss, about 225 yards, full elk in the scope!

My mind took the last split second, and I know a part sub-conscious moter skill took over. In a way I let it.

I let the bullet fly purposely to the left, about the same margin of error compensating for the flyer.

That bull shook, stutter-stepped, and plotted on slower but steady!

Oh no you don't I said, and gave him another, giving that same margin of mental correction.
Bull shook again, and continued slower!

I caught up with him, put him in the freezer.
But tgere would have been no eating his liver, I put two holes about 3 - 4 inches" apart right in the liver.
Right where my mind wanted the gun to go off, so it would take out the top of the heart.

The rifle was fine, some how I had a flyer.

Placement was everything.

Reason I bring this up.
Bullets were Hornady SSTs, a rather aggressive bullet.

Wouldn't Berger have that same thin-jacketed effects on putting elk in the freezer?

Cost sort takes my mind off Berger, but there is a magical draw to them?
Berger does seem 'avalable' , I would like to try them. Someday.

The three big draws for Bergers are:

1) Extreme accuracy.

2) Very high ballistic coefficient.

3) Most conventional expanding bullets, whether the SST, Nosler Partition or Barnes TSX, start to expand as soon as they hit skin. Berger VLD's don't start to expand for 2-3 inches, so the big damage is inside the animal, where the vital organs are. They can tear up meat around the exit hole, but the entrance hole is essentially like a poke with a knitting needle.

They also do more INTERIOR damage than any other bullet I've used, and I've used a bunch. The damage you saw from the SST's is nothing compared to what a Berger Hunting VLD does to the innards of a big game animal. Consequently animals die very quickly. I doubt your elk would have stayed on its feet long enough to be shot again if the first bullet had been a Berger.

Mule Deer, I have shot only one head of game with Bergers.. Have some to load, but not for elk this year.. Would Bergers be in your top three choices for killing elk??

They are what my rifle will be loaded with this year for Elk!

185 Hunting VLD's over Re22 powder. Getting about .5" groups at 300 yards.....

WyoCoyoteHunter,

Didn't draw a special area permit this year, so I'll mostly hunt my regular Forest Service spots, which primarily find elk in timber at moderate ranges--so no, Bergers wouldn't be one of my top three choices this year. But if I did draw a permit for more open country they would be.

My elk rifle will be loaded w 180 grain Bergers this year. Again.

Sample of one 6X6 bull in New Mexico's Gila. Quickest kill I've had or have ever witnessed on any big game animal.


Knitting needle entrance




Nice hole in both lungs





Jacket found under hide off-side




.264 WM 140 VLD





I'm loading more right now for anything that won't try to kill me in NA

Well if I had to fight a grizzly I would choose the VLD as the bullet in a bolt gun.

Not much of a fight with this griz but he sure thought the VLD was the answer.



As for elk, both near and far, the VLD has few if any peers in the "DRT" category.

Pretty bear! If you, John and Ric are high on them, I may have to try some. Unfortunately, they don't make them in .338 or .366 diameter. Maybe in the '06...

John Burns what caliber did you shoot that bear with? Very pretty bear

Rcamuglia,

Fantastic Bull!

Fantastic pictures!

And don't get me wrong, please?

Can't argue with success!
But I call that a bullet failure.

Unless that was a tremendous distance?
I like it when the lungs run out looking like warm cherry Jello.

We agree about putting it in the freezer!
We differ on what we call performance.

No schit. Good job, nice animal.

I shot this Elk w/155gr Berger...

270 yards.

I want more "failures" just like this

As I mentioned, I never shot them, and still would like to!

Seems like nothing else flies like them. And they do what they are designed to do.
Basic fragmenter, for lack of a better term.

Doing some research, came across a rather interesting picture. Shows the Berger standing out way ahead of the rest. Or as some could say, way behind?



Quickest kill I ever seen was a rather large bull shot head-on through the brisket with a 140grain NBT 7mmrm at about 150 yards. The bull went down like a dead duck splashing the decoys. I found the ball sort of like the NBT pictured above, but the one I found lost a little more weight. I found two little tears in tbe diaphragm membrane.

I consider SSTs maybe slightly more aggressive then NBTs.
Years ago, I did like the Gamekings, and keep asking myself why I ever went away?

This year, hope to see what the AccuBond hype about.
Following year, who knows? Win a small lotto? Berger!
If not, I was always happy with Gamekings.

Sad thing is, while we pluck frog-hairs, we kind of have to shoot what is avalible!

I've seen a few comments about the cost of Berger bullets.

If you consider that Nosler Accubonds are sold 50 a box and extrapolate the costs, Bergers are actually cheaper......

Thanks and 7mm 180gr VLD.

That depends on the criteria you use to define "bullet failure."

Is is what the bullet looks like after you recover it from a dead animal, or what the animal does after it's shot?

No personal experience with the Berger bullets but I don�t find any reason to try them, either, based on both Berger�s own claims as well as reports of those that have used them.

Mule Deer states the following:




Here are my thoughts on the matter.

1. Extreme accuracy. While I haven�t hunted as much as many on this forum, I�ve been hunting Colorado�s elk since 1982, missing only one or two years. Don�t know how many elk I�ve taken in total but since the year 2000 I�ve taken 10. �Extreme accuracy� has never been required but my longest shot was last year at 400 yards +/- a yard or so (and resulted in a downed elk, 300WM and 180g Barnes MRX). If my rifles are doing MOA (~1� at 100 yards), I�m good with that. I practice regularly out to 600 yards using steel plates and clay pigeons as targets. In 2010 I took a .300WM and a .30-06 to the range for a final check-out before going elk hunting. With a total of 5 shots fired I hit a clay pigeon with both rifles. I don�t recall what bullet I was using in the .300 but it was either a North Fork SS or Barnes MRX. I do remember the bullet in the .30-06 � a Nosler 150g AccuBond. A few days that rifle and bullet combo dropped a cow so fast she was on the ground before I recovered from the recoil, range a lasered 262 yards. The next day my son-in-law dropped one with a 180g Winchester Powerpoint using his .300WM, range a lasered 363 yards. Same results, on the ground instantly. Extreme accuracy is a bonus but not a reason for me to choose a bullet when other bullets are way more than accurate enough for my needs.

2. Very high ballistic coefficient. Yawn. With a laser range finder, adjusting for drop is no big deal. Wind is the bigger factor and a very high ballistic coefficient will help there, especially at very long ranges. The difference at 600 yards between a .30 caliber Barnes 165g TTSX (BC .442) and a Berger 168g VLD (BC .492) (2900fps, 7000ft altitude, 50 degrees, 250 yard zero, 10mph crosswind) calculates to be about 2.5� vertical and 3� horizontal.

3. Berger claims 2-3� of penetration before the VLDs start to shed �40-85� of their weight as shrapnel, resulting in �a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13� to 15� long�. This more than any other is the reason I won�t use them. One made it all of 40 yards, another made it about 25 yards and all the others have gone down either where they stood or within a few steps. More than once I�ve joked that the only way they would go down faster is if they dropped before the shot, the point being that terminal performance isn�t exactly lacking in the bullets I use.

Almost any bullet will work when things go according to plan. I figure most of the elk I�ve taken would have succumbed quickly to my .22-250 with a varmint bullet given the same placement, which is usually behind the front leg. What concerns me is what happens when things DON�T go as planned. A few year back I took an easy �can�t miss� behind-the-leg quartering away shot at a standing mulie buck. The buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke and placement ended up being in the lower right ham. The 140g North Fork I was using held together and was recovered from up against the sternum. The buck was on the ground before I recovered from the recoil. So what if the buck had been an elk (I had a bull tag in my pocket) and I had been using a Berger bullet? Would the bull have gone down with a �13-15� of penetration or would it have been like the bull I saw running away from a kid that shot it in the right rear quarter with a .243, never to be recovered? With the bullets I use I don�t worry about penetration or adequate wound cavities. Well, that isn�t exactly true � I do worry about penetration as in over-penetration. My hunting buddies and I have taken elk, deer and antelope with Barnes TTSX and MRX and we�ve yet to recover one.

Everyone has to make their own decisions as to what bullets to use, based on whatever criteria is important to them. For me, Berger VLDs and most cup-and-core bullets, simply don�t provide what I�m looking for - high weight retention with reliable but controlled and limited expansion, deep penetration and good accuracy, with a high BC is a plus but not a requirement. The bullets I use most are North Fork SS and FP; Barnes TTSX and MRX; and Nosler AccuBond. So far they have all worked with no complaints on my part.

Smokepole,

Exactly.

In recent decades lot of hunters have been conditioned in to equate high weight retention with "killing power." I suspect this trend started with Bob Hagel's book in the 1970's, where he emphasized weight retention so much. As a result some hunters started demanding "premium" bullets even for shooting whitetails, and manufacturers started making expanding bullets that retained more and more weight.

Another result is that nowadays there's often a knee-jerk reaction from some hunters about bullets that fragment. Have even heard hunters say a Nosler Partition "failed" because the front end flew apart, just like John Nosler designed it to.

While it's true bullets that don't penetrate the vitals don't kill worth a schidt, it's not true that 100% weight retention kills quicker. In reality fragmentation increases killing power by making a bigger hole in the vitals. That sounds simplistic, but just because something is simple doesn't mean it's wrong.

Berger bullets penetrate into the vitals before they fragment, which also would seem to be a simple concept to grasp. But a lot of hunters apparently can't get their mind around it, because they've been brainwashed by high weight retention for several decades now. As a result there's always at least one guy on every Berger bullet thread who whines and moans when he's never even seen one in action.

Dats a nice elk!


Big Loopy curls in those antlers!

Sheesh you guys, that's not an elk. Nice mule deer though.

Smokepole is right, that can't be no darned Elk......there aint one of them there leather seat things on em......

It's a zebra. It has stripes. Sheesh.

Whatever it is, it's just a damn spike.

I read a lot as a kid. but quickly found out that a lot of what was written didn't pan out in real life.

I quickly learned to just do the research myself.

And yes, fragments kill quicker, like a grenade vs a FMJ bullet to your torso.

Its the bullets that I recovered over the years, especially those while doing taxidermy full time that made me rethink life. Meant that I'd rather have the hole all the way through from any angle, and some damage, than risking a shot that won't allow penetration.

I can track as needed after the fact.

Its just my take on things. But when I do run Berger bullets, I run the target ones not the hunting ones, and I refuse to take angled shots.

As to expansion, i've got some GREAT looking berger target 185s from my 308 out to about 800 yards shooting at both targets and javelina/hogs. They perform just like I want, expand, fragment some, but basically retain about 3/4 or more of their weight to penetrate.

I"ve still got 7mm /180s but have failed to have a shot on game while having them in my gun so far.

Of course to answer the OP... I'd have no qualms about shooting an elk with a 243 win and a 100 grain corelokt or such. It just means my distances and shot angles have to be watched and have to be ready to say no.

A friend who runs Butch's Reloading just got back from a NM Pronghorn hunt. He stresses NOT to use the target version on game. He shot a doe 3 times and the Hybrid Target bullet penciled through.

I've never used Bergers on big game. And before I started guiding elk, deer, and sheep hunters I probably would have scoffed at the thought of shooting an elk with a Berger. I always used partitions myself. Been shooting 200 NPs out of a .300 win mag for a while now for deer and elk.

But the more I guide (usually 3-4 bull elk per year and a couple deer or sheep) the less I think it matters. Most of my clients aren't the typical campfire member/rifle loony that obsesses about this stuff year round. They buy a rifle some ammo and go hunting. Some of them have a bunch of money and hunt a bunch. And you know what they just kill stuff, IF it's hit marginally well or better.

I saw a couple of these guys who buy rifles and just go hunting.. They were sleeping in the back of the suburban .. We stopped to see if they were in trouble or needed help, they replied, naw, we hit a big mulie and it got off in the brush, the guide's up there looking now..!!

I use em plenty, in fact I"m down to my last ones so need to start looking. I"ve shot probably 250 of them in the last 2 years, including probably 50 animals or so.

Mine are slow since its 308 Win on top of it, running 185s. They have never had an issue. Always caliber in, and maybe thumb size or dime size or a hair smaller exit.

Thats what I personally look for in a bullet. And they are much more consistent with expansion/damage than sierra game kings ever have been.

I am stubborn and refuse to run the hunting version simply because they are more destructive.

I don't doubt he had penciling, but I've seen that with every bullet I've ever shot, at times, except barnes and otehrs have had the same results with barnes IE have seen penciling where I have not.

IMHO it doesn't take much to kill an animal with proper shot placement( force most folks to draw vitals and skeletal onto an outline of a deer and you'd be amazed what you see...). It does take more if you are after bang flop or no trailing.

Yes!

Back in the day, way back. When I first started hunting, think early 70s.
Some of the old-timers in camp used ball-ammo that they ground the tip off of.
Ol Coggers! Danged if they didn't get them to work!

Minnesota deer camp, not a lot of distance to cover with heavy brush.
Not every shot was efective, and not every hit either.

Excitement was a factor. Bad shot placment wasn't the norm, but happened.
We always processes our own game, and it was never pleasant trying to find something to eat from around a bullet hole!

I would hate to see what is left after a bad hit from a Berger bullet?
Fragmenters were/are discouraged for that reason.

I happen to be a real fan of aggressive expanision!
Before I started hunting, the term controlled expansion was already in use.
John Nolser was all about this idea, his Partition bullet is a benchmark of craftsmanship.

Is there an art involved with the effects, the 'whoop' we put on our game?

I call eating part of the sport! Spoilage (bad shot placement, shrapnel) is not what I am looking for.
Dead-Elk-Walking is a no-no as well.

Some like elk to leak from both sides.

My rating?

SSTs, too aggressive. Not a fragmenter, but sheds.

NBTs , fantastic, not a lot of tracking!

Silver Tips, (factory loads) agressive, maybe on par with NBTs. I have not see one recovered.

GameKings, another form of art!

Partitions, fantastic for those that use them. I like a little more 'whoop' .

Remington Core-locks, seen failures to expand.

Good friend of mine passed away, lived just down the road from Barns, he knew the family. He gave me a hard time for not using Barns. I know they have some excellent performers.

I would use a Berger, as mentioned.
It sure is easier finding load data for other choices. I would not be a fan of buying their manual to give them a try. Sure it's possible to figure out a load. Sure is nice to have a ballpark to start.

This is a typical example of NBTs, note the lungs damage from the nose:



Just my $0.02 cents worth, it is good we have a lot of manufacturers competing for loyalty. There are a lot of good choices.

I'll bet it wasn't the bullet's fault.



My first post did make it sound like you should just buy a rifle and ammo and do nothing else. Didn't mean that. Getting in shape and practicing shooting are critical. Bullet brand/type/weight, within reason, a little down on the list.

If finding load data is an issue, you must not load much....

And of course that happens even when they leave a wound channel 13-15", losing 85% of their mass enroute, even if vitals are much further away.

Unfortunately not every shot lands as intended and broadside shots where the vitals are only 2-3" away are not always the case.

Can't really decipher the above but if you shoot them at extreme angles with solids and that's your game, wow.

Any bullet I shoot at an animal will be sent with easy penetration to the vitals in mind. If you shoot a Berger into an animal broadside behind the shoulder, it folds. Quickly

While I can't speak for others, I have no problem developing a load for elk and using it for mulies and even antelope. The bullets I've used over the years (Speer Grand Slam, North Fork SS and FP, Barnes MRS and TTSX and Nosler AccuBond) seem to work fine for all. Given I've shot more elk than deer I see no reason to develop a different deer load. My hunting buddies are pretty much in the same boat.


What you call " a knee-jerk reaction" is often the result of well-considered arguments pro and con. Put me in the column that prefers a bullet that works just fine without blowing up in the animal and knows from experience that there are multiples to choose from.


I guess I missed the posts where someone claimed "100% weight retention kills quicker". All of them.

If 100% weight retention was the solution, I'd be shooting spire point solids.

What I have seen is people, like myself, that don't trust Bergers to penetrate to the vitals from bad angles, be it from a poor angle initially or because an animal moved or whatever. I've had 40g varmint bullets blow fist-sized holes on the far side of coyotes, ribs and all, and have no doubt they would have taken a mulie or elk down pretty quickly with a behind the leg shot. Not so much if they had to penetrate a mulie from ham to sternum or penetrate a mulie from front to back with an exit, yet I've had North Fork SS do the former and Barnes MRX/TTSX do the latter, both resulting in the animal on the ground before I recovered from the recoil. A Berger VLD might have killed quicker but any difference would be so vanishingly small as to be immeasurable and in the ham-to-sternum case I doubt a Berger VLD would have made the distance.

Guess I just prefer bullets that provide reliable but controlled expansion with a higher probability of deep penetration than bullets that penetrate less with marginally quicker kills on good angles and what I consider a higher probability of wounding on bad angles.


No whining and moaning here, just a stating of personal opinion based on my results with various bullets, the stated results of others that have used Bergers and were unhappy with the results and the stated performance claims of the manufacturer.

Most years I go big game hunting exactly twice - once on a weekend hunt for antelope and once for a week-long hunt for elk and deer. No one gives me free equipment or compensation of any kind so my hunts are entirely on my own time and dime. I spend a lot of time preparing for the hunts and choose bullets I believe give me the best chance of success under as wide a range of circumstances as possible. Bullets the manufacturer claims will lose up to 85% of their weight need not apply. Use Bergers if you want but attempting to denigrate those with different opinions of them not only makes you look small it leads me to believe you can't argue your position based on the facts.

Not sure what you don't understand, but I don't shoot solids unless you consider hardcast in my .45-70. They don't expand worth a damn but they sure knock the stuffing out of things and they penetrate like there is no tomorrow. My preferred hunting bullet for the.45-70, though, is a 350g North Fork FP. Very accurate and very deadly. A broadside 6x6 bull at 213 lasered yards never took a step and a quartering away mulie buck at just under 200 was leaking so badly from both sides it looked like someone had sloshed blood from a bucket. Needless to say the buck didn't go far - a tail-chase 360 turn and a few steps uphill you could count on one hand with a finger or two missing.

What I look for in a bullet is reliable but controlled and limited expansion over as wide a range of velocities as possible with high weight retention for deep penetration, plus good accuracy. You can't get that combination with solids or thin-skinned cup-and-core bullets.

Like you I try for the easy angles and am willing to wait for them or pass. The one buck I shot in the ham was an easy quartering away shot until the buck stepped forward and turned away as the trigger broke. Thankfully I was using a bullet that held together and reached the sternum instead of blowing up in the ham. Bangthud.

A$$ shots aren't in my repetior

Nor mine but $hit happens.

Yep. It's amazing how fast an animal can spin 90 degrees, even when calm.

A 140 grain bullet at 2800 takes .36 seconds from the time it leaves the muzzle till it impacts a 300 yard target.

What I can't figure out is why so many match/LR shooters have this aversion to shooting animals with bullets designed specifically for that purpose?

Puzzling.

Sounds about right. The 7mm 140g North Fork I used on the buck was going a mite faster, a nominal 3214fps at the muzzle and would have arrived the 150 yards downrange to the buck in about .148 seconds. Moving at 10mph the buck would have gone over 2 feet in that time. Even from a standing start he was able to turn an 'easy' quartering-away/behind the ribs shot into a ham shot and only had to move about a foot to do so. It was a once-in-31-years Murphy event.

The photo below shows one reason I like North Fork bullets - reliable but controlled and limited expansion over a wide range of velocities. The first was recovered at the range, the second from the far side of an elk after breaking a leg and ribs, the third from the aforementioned buck after penetrating from ham to sternum.

30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps MV, ~1887fps @ impact
Recovered from dirt
500 yards, 145.0 grains retained weight (87.9%)


.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, ~2749fps @ impact
Recovered from cow elk
~25 yards, 133.2 grains retained weight (80.7%)


7mm 140 grain @ 3214fps, ~2855fps @ impact
Recovered from buck mule deer
~150 yards, 131.2 grains retained weight (93.7%)

I don't think they do. I don't.

I simply like the way a softer bullet performs on big game. I prefer to shoot big game with a rifle the same way I shoot big game with a bow; behind the shoulder, broadside. When you do it this way, you don't need a stupid Barnes X solid copper bullet. Soft points, Ballistic Tips, etc result in animals that drop right there most of the time.

If you load heavily constructed bullets in preparation that you will take any shot regardless if the animal is going away and showing his A$$, there's some problems that probably should be addressed in the "When Hunting Becomes "Shooting"" thread.

A-Frames, Barnes, and other bullets constructed similarly I have no use for unless I go to Africa or plan to hunt something that can kill me.

Slightly off topic but i was wondering if anyone has used the berger tactical bullets on game? I ran out of the 338 250 gr hunting bullets and all i could find is the tactical. One gentleman told me they are heavier jacketed so should penetrate better or farther before turning into shrapnel.
What say you?

Fred

You shootin' a Lapua? I don't think if matters. A friend blew a bobcat in half with a 250gr SMK, and obliterated all edible meat on both front shoulders with the same bullet on a whitetail.

No Lapua just a win mag.

Nothing like a good ol' terminal ballistics discussion to get the CampFire crackling...

rc I was not directing my comment to you; just making a general inquiry. Sorry if you got the wrong impression. But as long as you answered, thanks for the viewpoint.

The reason for my asking is that bullets intended for target shooting seem to have been designed with a singular purpose in mind, which is great accuracy and for punching paper, along with high BC profiles. You know all the stuff...

Jackets and cores are not designed and tempered and drawn for fully reliable expansion and penetration; they are frequently hard, and brittle due to the materials used for jackets and cores, tend to shatter and fragment,instead of expanding to good frontal areas and still have the construction to retain enough weight to penetrate well. (Retained weight in a bullet may not be what kills animals; but it's inherent in their design to ensure penetration in game to withstand the stresses associated with traveling through animal flesh and bones after they have expanded)....the same way that target bullets are "designed" for extreme accuracy...basically different functions, so different designs.

Sometimes, we see these bullets do a good job, and sometimes they most assuredly ....don't. We see examples of it all the time.

Given all this, and notwithstanding their other sterling qualities, when these bullets do a good job on BG animals, I really can't regard it as anything other than a fortuitous accident....simply because the makers themselves did not intend them for that purpose. Not that they can't be useful for some purposes, like shooting at extreme ranges, but as general purpose hunting bullets, I think they are lacking.

Your elk kill might be an example....from what I can see of the wound channel through the lungs I have to admit it is about what I would expect of a Berger at 700-800 yards based on what I have been told to expect of them; not at 270 yards where velocity was still relatively high from a 264 Win Mag. I thought the wound channel was rather small, indicating to me that the bullet had little frontal area, and that advertised fragmenting did not create all that much of a wound damage. I have seen far larger wounds in elk chest cavities from bullets designed for hunting, at similar distances, that don't "fragment" at all, lose virtually no weight, but expand to broad frontal areas. There was nothing left that you cold call lungs....just pureed soup.

There are persistent "myths" in the world of BG terminal ballistics...one is that bullets must "fragment" in order to kill effectively on broadside lung shots...this leads to guys running around trying this bullet and that, expecting the bullet to behave exactly the same at 2000 fps as it does at,say,3000 fps, in the hopes that all lung shots will result in DRT's. IMHO this sometimes works and sometimes does not...at least based on what I have seen, which includes bullets that came completely unglued in the lungs, never making it to the offside, and the animal skipping merrily away to collapse some distance off.

So, I never thought too highly of the whole fragmenting theory, and still don't....Anyone who has killed any number of BG animals knows that lung hits with fragmenting bullets do not always give these results...and a bullet soft enough to possibly get it may work OK in the open country of the SW where broadside shots are relatively common and the shooting relatively easy(yes have hunted that area quite a few times)......but may be a dismal failure in the elk jungles of Idaho or Colorado or Montana at 70 yards with an animal slightly quartering away. (I don't know why you continually refer to a$$ shots and set them forth as the only reason for bullets of tougher construction; I have taken exactly one in 40+ years of BG hunting and it was on a previously wounded animal. It was with a Nosler Partition and yes it did prevent a wounded animal from escaping, doing exactly what I hoped it would do, since its construction and "design" was up to that task).

Even a quartering shot on a big bull elk,(no a$$ shots, remember! where it may be desirable to dump him where he stands, might be required to penetrate heavy leg or shoulder bones coming or going in order to reach vitals...in such cases, having BTDT myself a few times, I will bet my hunt success and money on one of those "stupid" designs like a Nosler Partition, Barnes, Aframe, etc before I reach for a target bullet that might make it. In any event, I am not going to pay much money to find out if it will or not....I like sure things


Anther persistent "myth" is that the bullet could not have "failed" because the animal was "dead"...this is intellectual dishonesty of the first order, and mostly nonsense.

Aboriginal, third world people have stuck ball bearings and other metal objects into muzzle loaders to kill BG animals...... proving?..... maybe?...that they are equally effective as a Barnes or Berger because the animal was "dead"? ...utter nonsense of course, as is the notion that all bullets that kill behaved in a predictable and reliable manner, making them suitable for BG hunting..

On the subject of Barnes bullets and similar monos, that stupid design (proven world wide by hunters of substantial experience) just may be the next and best technological advance in hunting bullets, particularly when driven at high velocity...the damage may well exceed what guys are using the softer bullets to try to accomplish; and with much more reliable penetration to boot. A pal who posts here is emailing results from Africa daily, all very favorable, but lets wait for him tell us about it.

BTW what is it about Africa that would cause you to switch bullets to something tougher? Does it mean you have some reservations about the bullets you are using here? Personally, I'd just use pretty much the same stuff I use over here.

rcamuglia �

There are clearly some folks who think �soft� bullets or those that are designed to fragment are the best way to go, just as there are those like myself that have an aversion to such bullets, especially at high impact velocities. For some reason many of those who espouse the use of soft bullets seem to feel threatened by the choice of others, as you seem to be. Use whatever bullet you are comfortable with and I will do the same with no reflection on you or your choices.

In 31 years I�ve taken exactly one big game animal with a bolt rifle and standard cup-and-core bullets, a Hornady 162g BTSP that retained less than 48% of its original weight even though the challenge to its integrity was minimal. For the next 20+ years I used 160g Speer Grand Slams to good effect with elk, deer and antelope consistently going down at the shot or within a few steps. The one memorable exception was a cow that made it about 40 yards and struggled for every step. It wasn�t until the last year that I recovered a Grand Slam as they had a habit of making two holes in the hide. The recovered Grand Slam had destroyed both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull, a far greater challenge to its integrity that that experienced by the Hornady BTSP, but still retained over 70% of its original weight. The lesson learned in those 20+ years is that a well-designed hunting bullet can put animals on the ground very quickly and very reliably while retaining a high percentage of its weight for deep penetration if needed.

Which bring us to �A$$� shooting. First, my hunting buddies and myself do not �take any shot� that is offered � we try for broadsides and often wait for them, sometimes losing opportunities as a result. Quartering shots are also very acceptable and I�ll take one if that is all I can get. There is a very different mentality, one you don�t seem to understand, involved in preparing for the worst and working for the best.

What would you do if an animal, rather than going down at the shot, turns tail and heads for the next county? Would you let a possibly wounded animal run off to die horrible death or would you take the shot offered, confident that your choice of bullet was up to the task? The Grand Slams exited with such regularity that I never worried about such situations. The same is true with Barnes TTSX and MRX, neither of which my hunting buddies or myself have ever recovered, even with frontal shots on mulies. In the one case where the buck moved and a quartering away shot became a ham shot, the North Fork I was using was more than up to the task where a �softer� or fragmenting bullet might have failed to reach the vitals.

That said, why is it that people tend to think frontal/broadside/quartering shots are more ethical, even if a tail-end shot has the exact same results? The buck I unintentionally shot in the A$$ wouldn�t have gone down or died any quicker regardless of what angle or bullet was used. Answering my own question, I think there are two main reasons, those being a) people rightly have an aversion to dressing animals with the contents of the digestive track exposed and contaminating the meat and, more importantly, b) many �A$$� (or extreme quartering away) shots have resulted on long tracking jobs or lost animals. Addressing �b� further, those cases can be broken down into two classes � those where a different bullet would have made no difference in the outcome and those where it would. This is why in �preparing for the worst and working for the best� I choose bullets I believe can make a difference in such situations, as I believe the North Fork did on that buck.

As to �stupid� Barnes bullets, I�ve found the Barnes TSX and TTSX (and Swift A-Frames and North Fork SS) to be extremely accurate in my rifles � more so than many �soft� cup-and-core bullets � yet very effective on game. If/when Murphy comes knocking, I�d much rather have one of these in the chamber than any cup-and-core bullet.

Swift A-Frames are the bullet of choice when my .257 Roberts goes on an elk/deer hunt. The same rifle gets Nosler AccuBonds or Barnes TTSX when antelope hunting � no need to have a bullet blow up and destroy more meat than necessary as antelope don�t have much to begin with. North Forks SS and Barnes TTSX/MRX are the choice for my 7mm RM and various .30�s and Nosler AccuBonds get used in ,my .338. They have all proven themselves as reliable game droppers and if Murphy knocks I�m comfortable I�ll be as prepared as I can be.

Bob,

I'll just note that there have been a bunch of bullets "designed" for hunting that work much less than perfectly for the purpose. In fact some have been the biggest POS's ever devised, because they were designed by people who apparently haven't hunted much.

I have also seen some of today's most highly-touted "hunting" bullets fail as well, including some deemed to be the sort of magic bullet that penetrates the vitals from any angle.

Bullets in these categories have created far more rodeos than I've ever seen with Berger Hunting VLD's. In fact so far I've yet to see a "failure" from a Hunting VLD on several dozen amimals, because they've worked the same way every time. No, they won't penetrate an animal from the ass-end, but I would bet a sugar cookie (as long-gone gun writer used to say) that they'd kill the animal dead if they did, because they do SO much damage.

No, Berger VLD's weren't designed for hunting. Instead some hunters who used them discovered they worked quite well. This was reported to Berger, and the people there (including Walt) decided to study the subject. They thoroughly tested them, first in various kinds of media, and then in game. In fact they did far more studying of how the bullets worked than most makers of "purpose designed" hunting bullets do, and only when they'd proved, over and over again, that their VLD's perform consistently did they market them as hunting bullets.

I've personally used them on game up to elk size, and will again, because I like the way they work for certain applications. Do they do everything, including cleaning windows? No, but then no other bullet does either. That's one of the unfortunate limitations of hunting bullets, despite all the hunters and Campfire members who claim to use the only perfect all-around hunting bullet ever made. (Apparently there at least a dozen different bullets that are absolutely perfect in every way, yet somehow very few people agree on exactly which one it is.)

Do I use Bergers for all my hunting? No, partly because I have to stay diverse, due to my job, so I keep testing different bullets, sometimes ones I've used lots before. But I also don't believe Bergers are the best bullet for certain purposes, just as I don't believe some of the other bullets I use are the best bullet for certain purposes.

The other comment I'll make, partly because I just did it myself, is that this thread contains all the same stuff that's repeated every time the subject of Berger Hunting VLD's comes up on the Campfire, and often from the same people--MOST of whom have never used them in the field, or ever SEEN them used in the field.

I am one who has never used a Berger bullet. Fact is I think I only used a so called premium bullet( partition) maybe on one or two hunts in 50 years. I could probably count on one hand all the times I have used any thing but Sierra bullets for big game.

One of those now is the Nosler AB. Not because of it's sterling terminal performance, but because the 130 gr in a 65. caliber, matches the twist rate in my old 6.5 Swede perfectly and is extremely accurate in the 300-400 yard range for pronghorn.

In all those years, I have seen the latest wonder bullet and all the hype for about two years after they hit the shelves, maybe five and have never succumbed to the notion that just had to use them as the elk were getting tougher and tougher.
I also don't subscribe to the theory that we have to prepare for the worse to happen.

I must be extremely lucky, because in 40+ elk and too many deer /pronghorn to count I have never had the worse happen.
I have lost one elk and one deer in all those years. The deer from a poorly chosen placed shot in my younger years and the elk doubling back in a herd and obliterating any blood trail while I thought it followed the herd.

Then there is a scenario of having to butt shoot a wounded animal because it was running off when the first shot didn't put it on the ground. Funny, that had never happened to me either.

Interesting comments. Not that they need my endorsement but I agree 100%.

I loaded some .308 rounds for a guy last year, for elk hunting. Loaded up both Partitions and TTSXs; the TTSXs shot small groups so he used those. He shot a nice 6-pointer broadside, at under 100 yards, and through the heart.

He came by the other night with his fired brass and asked me to load up some more, but he wanted only Partitions this time. He showed me the TTSX, recovered from under the hide on the off-side. The only way I could tell it had been fired was by the rifling marks. So it neither expanded, nor exited on a broadside elk at under 100 yards, which is one of the main reasons people say they like TSXs (two holes, blood trail, and all that).

Is that "bullet failure" if it's recovered from a dead elk?

Smokepole,

You got pics of that bullet?

Dink

Smokepole, If you dont mind me askin', what weight/velocity were those .308 TTSX's you loaded?

I have a decent load for the 160 grain TTSX that meanders along at a tad under 2700fps. There's more steam in the boiler room, but haven't found a good enough load at higher velocities yet.

African Big Game are different. As you know I'm sure, their vitals are in a different place than North American game. While still in the chest cavity they are further forward and low which just so happens to be a location where they are protected by heavy leg and shoulder bone. If you shoot most of them behind the shoulder, more often than not, you'll be in guts. Done it myself on Oryx here in NM. Buddy of mine lost one by not shooting it in the shoulder straight up from the front leg.

I'm not in some kind of fantasy land that a Berger VLD will penetrate 2" femur bone of a 700 pound or larger animal. I do know that John Burns recommends shooting the Scapula on NA big game with the VLD. Watch any of his videos using the same .264 Winchester/140 VLD combo. The VLD will penetrate 3" and do massive damage to the internals. They drop instantly. My bull was shot with the 140 VLD and absolutely NO BONE was hit going in or out. That's the reason for the nice hole as a wound channel, but still the bullet lost everything inside the jacket.

As Mule Deer wrote, the Berger was not designed as a hunting bullet, but as people used them and saw the dramatic terminal effects, they realized how good they really were.

Many products have been manufactured for a purpose then found to work great for another, unintended purpose.

Great comments here. Pretty cool topic.

How do most of you think the Nosler ABLR's will stack up to the Bergers? They seem to shed a whole lotta weight while retaining a decent sized base?

[bleep], will these work?

Only if you run 'em through a walnut stocked 7x57 with a Lyman Alaskan for glass, preferably a fixed 4X. Can't have too much new stuff happening at once, it upsets many terribly.

Mule Deer's article "Berger Bullets on Big Game"

Well. We agree on that.



Guess I missed where anyone has claimed to use the �only perfect all-around hunting bullet ever made�. But I agree there are many excellent bullet choices other than VLDs (which I think might be one of the best for extended ranges, even if I choose not to use them for the ranges at which I�m willing to shoot). Moreover, I happily use several of those other bullets, as do my hunting buddies, and they have yet to disappoint.



I find it uproariously laughable every time you imply that first-hand experience is a necessary factor in the human learning experience. If that were the case we would all be living in caves and communicating via grunts and other primitive pre-language sounds. Fortunately most of us are quite capable of learning from the experiences of others via a variety of means of communication.

What business are you in again? Oh, yeah � providing information to and educating others via what are (to them) second-hand experiences. [Still laughing.]

I here what you're saying. You go to college to learn knowledge that others have gleaned, even at the Masters level. At a higher level though, your analogy fails you. You get a Ph.D awarded to you based on YOUR research, efforts, and findings. I'm not aware of anyone having a Ph.D in "riflery", but if there was such a thing, Barsness would be its first recipient.

Nope. To answer the other question, never chronographed it. It was a 168 with a middle-of-the-road load of R-15 out of a 24" barrel.

Nope, you have 500 duds. Good fer marmots at best

The bullets in the pic are the source of a lot of debate/hate/myth/lies... Usually guys like one or the other, hell I cant decide what ones I like the best so I shoot them both. Most of my guns have a berger/barnes combo to choose from.

rosco1, how do you like those LRX's? The mfr claims they are softer and open more reliably. Thanks!

Heck I killed a couple coyotes with those too!

At first I was just pissed that I had to re do all my MRX loads..But the LRX is a great bullet, I've never had a tipped barnes not open up (that I know of), and I dont think that will change with the LRX.So far I've only killed three head of game with them and I actually caught one last year in an elk,(never caught an MRX) and they do appear to open up wider than other X-bullets.

Another note on them is the BC is well over what they list them as, which has been the case with a lot of barnes bullets i've worked with.

What have you figured out as your BC for the 145 LRX out of curiosity?

Have you tried the 168?

I'm using .531 as my 145 BC in shooter I will usually adjust velocity over BC to match things up, but like i said every barnes i've shot at LR needs bumped up, so I adjust BC to what i'm seeing. I havent really worked with 168's.

I never suggested that people can't learn from first-hand experience, and in fact all of us do so all of our lives.

Liker JB says, no bullet is perfect for all occasions, or words to that effect, and I agree completely. I just find that, based on the experiences of others with VLDs (both good and bad), the information provided by the manufacturer, and my experiences with other bullets, the other bullets provide more of what I'm looking for in hunting bullets. And so far the ones I use have worked very, very well.

One dud was the Barnes XLC. Although they were very accurate in my 7mm RM, after one experience with them on antelope the rest got used for target practice.

John I couldn't agree more....part of the reason it has been so hard to pry me from Partitions.

I was not directing my comments directly at Bergers, just commenting that RC's 140's did not show the kind of wound channel I would have expected in light of what I have seen from other bullets at similar distances on the same animals....my comments would be the same with about any match bullet, including Sierra's, Hornady's, etc.....and no I have never fired a Berger at game...I will leave that up to you guys who are professional bullet testers.

I can understand using some of these as specialized tools of LR experts.

Short of doing a bunch of cull hunts in Africa, or donkey shoots in Australia, it takes a long time to fully understand what a bullet weight/design is capable of under a variety of circumstances and different animals; the reason I do little jumping around myself and lean more towards stuff of sturdier construction.

I think we are both of that age that we can recall why bullets like Partitions, BBC's, TBBC's, TSX's, etc., were originated and designed in the first place.....high velocity cartridges tore up some thin jacketed C&C bullets that did not penetrate well ; squished flat against vertebrae's and shoulders, expanded poorly, and failed to penetrate properly and otherwise get the job done....this even happened with moderate velocity cartridges on heavy animals. Generally the culprit is some thin jacketed something or other that simply did not do what the shooter intended....not up to the job.

Even such newer things as the Barnes has been through so many changes a guy can hardly keep track...when they first came out I would not use them....one look and you knew there would be expansion problems...and there were. I'd use and trust them today, but not on a bet when they first came out....it only took 20-something years for them to finally get it right. Same with BT's which a lot of guys like....but sifting through which one's have been built tougher these days and which one's have not is a daunting task...


When it comes to new wonder bullets for hunting, color me a carping skeptic.

I'm going on my first elk hunt next year. My guide said to bring the 260 loaded with 130 grain Berger VLD Hunting bullets, so I'm listening to my guide.

Will report back in a year with whether they worked or not!

Having guided a few elk hunts, the very last thing I would ever want to tell a client is what bullet to use!

There are enough problems, things you can't control. Saying what bullet to use now opened up a new can of worms!

Good luck!

Only one personal experience with VLD's.

On a quartering away shot the 140gr VLD knocked a bull right off his feet.
My spotter uttered something unprintable followed by, "He's back up".
After a several hour rodeo I killed him with a VLD on another quartering away shot (a little less angled/more broadside).
After removing the hide we found a large bruise where the first bullet had skipped off the ribs.

rosco1 -

Your experience is similar to mine. The first Barnes bullets I tried were the 160g XLCs in my 7mm RM. Very accurate but a failure on game with apparent lack of expansion on two of the three I put into an unfortunate antelope. The XLCs had also been inconsistent on coyotes. One dropped straight down at 100 yards and I never did find the entrance or exit, while another blew a softball-sized 'U' channel out of the top of another coyote's back.

Then the TSX's came out and were even more accurate. Worked up new 140g TSX loads for my 7mm RM. 115g for my.257 Roberts, 168g for my .308 Win and .300WM and 180g for my .300WM. A lot of time at the range but could never bring myself to use them on game. Then the tipped MRX came out, which erased ***most*** of my concerns about reliable expansion. This time I worked up 165g loads for a .30-06 and 180g loads for my .300WM. They didn't get used on game, though, because I was using North Fork SS to good effect and recollections of that first antelope and XLCs still left some doubt.

Enter the TTSX. A 100g through my .257 Roberts worked well on antelope and it was off to the races as far a s load development went - 120g and 140g for the .280 and 7mm RM and 168g for the .308 Win and .30-06s. Never got around to the .300WM because I still had (and still have) 180g MRXs loaded, although I'll probably have to do so next year. As my hunting buddies and myself gained experience with the TTSX on antelope and deer our confidence grew as well - a high percentage (~50%) of straight-down, DRT results with the others going down quickly, end-to-end penetration, two holes, and no bullets recovered.

Last year I finally used the 180g MRX in my .300WM as I was running low on North Forks. I shot a nice mulie buck at less than 50 yards (probably more like 30). It was a quartering away shot and the buck was down within 4-5 steps. The bullet hole in the picture below is the exit.



The next day I took the cow elk below at 400 yards on a broadside shot. It reversed course and took 2-3 steps uphill, then collapsed. Again the photo shows the exit side.


We don't have any pictures of recovered TTSX or MRX as all have exited.

Now the LRXs are out in two of my favorite calibers, 7mm and .308 and I simply haven't had the time or inclination to work with them as I have a lot of TTSX on hand. When I get around to them, maybe early next year for load development, I fully expect them to work as well on game as the MRX and TTSX, which is to say I expect excellent accuracy with reliable expansion, high weight retention, deep penetration and game going straight down or down within a few steps.

I drew a tag in Wyoming and most of the unit was wilderness, which requires a guide for non-residents. I asked the guide (a well-regarded career outfitter, not some local part timer) if there was anything he really wanted me to use. He said kenetrek boots and Berger bullets. It really took a big dose of convincing to get me to use them, as I am more in the Partition to TTSX crowd. But we took two bulls with the 168gr .284 Berger and the terminal performance was exemplary. The "go in two inches and wreak havoc" thing really happened.

I disagree. If a guide/outfitter doesn't help the client make decisions based on his knowledge of the area and animal hunted he's not doing his job.

Not to hijack the thread, but reading about the performance of Bergers concerns me. That kind of fragmentation likely kills quickly, but leaves fragments of lead throughout the meat. I saw a newspaper article in the last few days but can't find it. There are no documented symptoms in humans of lead poisoning from bullets, but if one plans to eat the meat, that fragmentation is not likely a good thing. I know, the animal needs to die before one can eat it. But given the research on lead in venison one needs to think about this. I am a fan of Sierra game kings, but have switched to Barnes bullets. I have not recovered any bullet shot from a rifle; I have recevered a barnes bullet from an elk killed with a muzzle loader. Bullet was just under the skin on the off side. . for all practical purposes 100% weight retention. maybe some fragmentation would have tenderized that old bull?

For me, the performance is there; with the dangers of lead to the birds and to me, I choose non-toxic bullets.

http://www.raptor.cvm.umn.edu/MedicalServices/RaptorMedicine/LeadPoisoning/home.html
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html

Some people may not believe a bullet will skip off an animal but I had a 140gr accubond do just that when launched from a .280. The shot was less than six feet on a wounded whitetail and it knocked a palm sized chunk of hair off the shoulder. Luckily the deer just rolled over and made a gasping noise and died. I had wounded him earlier that day and had been chasing him for about 4 hours.

Most times lightweight varmint bullets will disintegrate when they hit the ground, yet I've had several 40g bullets from my .22-250 whine off into the distance. Heavier varmint bullets ricochet more often than the light ones. No harder to skip a bullet off water than it is a rock.

Just takes the right set of circumstances.

This has been rehashed here quite a few times. Birds are super sensitive to lead, and many of the problems with leaded meat were due to incredibly poor butchering.

But the best way to not allow lead in your meat is to not shoot animals in the meaty regions.

funniest part of this thread? OP hasnt responded since.

a simple, 1-line question has spawned a class IV pissin match, in which he isnt participating. (and I dont blame him)

ahh, the things we get our shorts in a twist over....

at least elk season is finally upon us.

To all those using Bergers, Partitions, TSX, or whatever else you chose, Godspeed. Just be thankful you're in the mountains.

I can kind of see recommending Kenetreck, I am wearing a pair at the moment.

I would give my $0.02 cents worth there, but Kenetreck don't fit every pair of feet..
No more then an off the shelf 870 Remington will fit all shotgun shooters.

A moot point for me really, it's my bet that maybe less then 20% of all Hunters I ever guided could reload and shoot well.

Not sure Berger is the answer for every rifle either?
Twist-rate and how they fit the box are just a couple concerns.

Their out there, I even heard of Guides saying how they wouldn't waste their time guiding for someone shooting expandable broadheads.

Most guide clients look like they just got back from Cabelas, can't get up in the morning, can't get up a hill, and can't shoot if their life dependent on it..
But if he came with his buddy that ask "got any duck-tape" the night before the season,�I'd bet on him!

It is a good idea that everyone shoot their rifle, again right before the hunt. Especially coming by air.
It is a laugh a minute sometimes! Trust me, Berger can't fix most problems!

Most guide clients don't spend time here or other places learning what we can, sharing thoughts, weighing options and perfecting the science!

Asking what they shoot best would be a good lead-in question to size up a client.

Im no bullet expert, reloader or long distance shooter. but do most hunter really shoot 500+ yards?
what about shot placement? it doesn't matter if you have the best bullet if you don't hit vitals on an elk, it will run off.
I shot an elk as he was quartering me with barnes tsx and hit no vitals just watch him run off, even though it destroyed his shoulder . I was lucky to get another shot to finish him off with a neck shot. he was dead before he hit the ground.

My thoughts on Bergers......
They do damage to the inside of an animal that is spectacular.
I personally think they are a pain in the azz to load for in my rifles. I can take Sierra's, go max, touch grooves and get a damn accurate load. Same cannot be said for Bergers in my rifles.
As a resident, I have four months to dump wapiti and have no desire to run a bullet into a hard quartered elk. I can wait for the next one.
As a non-resident on a week long once in a lifetime elk hunt? I would pick a different bullet.

I plan on using the 168 hybrid hunter on an elk this year. It will be colorado so i'll also be a non-resident there, fingers crossed


I figure if a 125 muzzy @ 300fps will get it done, 168 grains of lead @ 3100fps should too..

Last weekends OTC Idaho archery bull, a friend with the rack.



K Salonek, I would agree with those guides on expandables, I detest those bastards.

This is all very interesting. I've come to the conclusion reading this that even the biggest proponents of using Bergers on Elk don't recommend them if the shot angle is less than ideal or heavy bone may be encountered (doubly interesting that many of these same individuals slap themselves on the back for shooting an Elk at 800 yds). I'm sorry, but I just don't have any patience for stuff like that in the name of high BC "target" bullets. Pass the Barnes LRX please. They shoot more accurately anyway.

I have no experience with bergers on elk. I've used the 70 vld in a .223 on coyotes and they don't exit usually. I've also had thicker jacketed hunting bullets detonate at .308 win. velocities on elk.

Just returned from elk hunt with 7 STW with 180 VLD bergers and took a nice 6x6 bull. How did the Berger do-- dead elk shot was 330 yards in the shoulder took out top of heart and came apart there. Can't say it did not do the job. The 2 nd shot was not really needed but was 4 inches behind shoulder and it blew lungs up but did not get to the other side. Lots of damage but I would have liked exit. This is the 1 set elk with Berger and I can not say anything bad just that inwould prefer more penetration but it killed the bull fast just different than I am used to

Great report. Thank you and CONGRATS! That sounds like a heckuva bull..

Well I kinda feel the same way but a couple of people whose experiences and opinions I trust say they will do the job and are especially effective at really long range, where I can see them working fine....all this sets up this HUGE conflict in my brain

I reconcile all this by factoring in that I am not a real LR shooter (being all done at 500-600 yards)....and simply stick to the deeper penetrating stuff I am used to using

I am a bit mystified by the comments of some Berger users who say the elk simply shrug off solid chest hits with things like Partitions and others....sort of wander around a great distance before they collapse...which has not been my experience at all.

Maybe I am angling too many shots through bones?

Bob, Bergers are far from my first pick for elk, I really like barnes for them..I do plan on using them this year cuz I'm trying them out on my colorado deer hunt,and I plan on picking up an OTC bull tag on that hunt and the 168's are what I'm rolling with.If this hunt goes the same as most others i'll prolly drop an elk long before a deer. sorry to the elk fans out there but decent bull elk are by far easier to find than a big muley on public.

i'll use them and am pretty sure what the outcome will be, it wont be my first berger'ed bull, and I know what parts to keep the bullet out of

No, just taking a well-reasoned approach that has been proven effective many times more than all the Berger kills put together. I sum it up this way: "Prepare for the worst and work for the best."

For me that means using bullets I believe will work just fine when all goes well but whose design enhances the probability of deep penetration with controlled and limited expansion if things go wrong. Although I've never used a Partition personally (even though they were my back-up loads for many years), I've seen them used and have yet to see an elk "shrug one off". The same is true with Trophy Bonded. For myself, Speer Grand Slams, North Fork SS and Barnes MRX/TTSX have put a lot of animals down very effectively with no lost animals or long tracking jobs. (Or even short ones.)

Going back to 1999, here is the yards gone after the shot for my hunting buddy (Dave), son-in-law and myself:

1999 - Grand Slam - 5x5 bull - Dave - 0 yards
2000 - Grand Slam - cow - Dave - 120 yards (neck shot against my advice)
2000 - Grand Slam - 6x5 bull - Mine - 0 yards
2002 - Grand Slam - cow - Dave - 40 yards
2002 - Grand Slam - cow - Mine - 40 yards
2002 - Grand Slam - 5x5 bull - Mine - 0 yards
2003 - North Fork - 6x6 bull - Mine - 0 yards
2006 - Trophy Bonded - cow - Dave - 5 yards
2006 - North Fork - cow - Mine - 25 yards
2007 - North Fork - cow #1- Mine 0 yards
2007 - North Fork - cow #2 - Mine 0 yards
2010 - AccuBond - cow - Mine - 0 yards
2010 - WW Power Point - cow - son-in-law - 0 yards
2011 - AccuBond - cow - Mine - 3 yards
2012 - MRX - cow - Mine - 5 yards


That's 15 elk with 8 going straight down after the shot and 3 more making it 5 yards or less. I've no doubt that if my hunting buddy had shot his 2000 cow behind the front leg that it would have dropped much faster. The problem was he had shot his bull in the neck the year before and it went straight down and he expected the same results with the cow even though I had cautioned him that neck shots could be iffy. I suspect a Berger VLD would have dropped Dave's neck-shot cow much faster than the Grand Slam did, even with identical placement. Most likely my .22-250 and a 40g Ballistic Tip would have done so as well, but I don't find that reason enough to want to use either combination for elk. For me such a choice would be like taking a neck shot - it might work but the chance of a problem is needlessly increased.

************
Edited because I can't count. 15 elk for the group instead of 16. Cut and paste error in the original version.

rosco I bet it turns out fine My own view, never having killed a bull beyond 500 is that I can understand the LR guys using them as the problem out far, besides hitting them right, becomes an expansion issue. Seems they do that well.

CH your experience mirrors mine and I have not had bulls go very far if anywhere at all after a hit from the tougher bullets; and like yours many where floored where they stood. My last one collapsed like a dynamited smokestack from a 160 Partition.

...........Landkiller.....Realize that most if not all of the VLD detractors on any VLD thread such as this where this is debated, haven`t used them on elk or on any other game. To not use them is their choice and they are entitled to their anti VLD opinion.

What you do, is take stock from those who have frequently used them on elk, such as John Burns and a few others. Their experiences using VLDs on elk is far more than most including me as well.

Of my 10 elk taken, the latest one was killed with a 30 cal 190 hunting VLD. Thought I`d give the VLD a try and keep an open mind. Well! It did not disappoint.

Fired from 328 yards at a 2830-40 MV, the 190 penetrated the right shoulder bone and continued on doing massive internal damage with bullet fragmentation found just below the hide on the other side. The bull staggered about 3 to maybe 4 yards and then collapsed.

I have to say that out of the ten, the VLD gave me the quickest kill.

The perverbial thinking of many `ol school hunters as was mentioned on this thread earlier, is that they can`t seem to get their heads out of the sand when it comes to the VLDS. They automatically associate "hunting" VLDs as "MATCH ONLY" paper punching bullets and should not be used on elk.

Well I say to them. Look at the successful VLD results on elk by John Burns and by many others.

Imo, that alone trumps their old school way of thinking and their lack of experience.

To find out how they work just as with the rest of us VLD users have!! You just have to try them for yourself.

As I�ve pointed out before, first-hand experience is not the only way of learning � if it was we would still be living in caves and communicating with grunts and other primitive pre-language sounds. Why is it that proponents of various products always drag out this red herring when trying to discount people with different views?

There are many accounts of Berger VLDs failing to perform in a manner I consider acceptable including some in this thread and claims by the manufacturer.


What? Pay attention to what others have said about their experiences with VLDs in lieu of first-hand experience? Kind negates the point of your first paragraph, doesn�t it?

I agree though, pay attention to the experience of others. In my case I pay particular attention when I read things from the manufacuter that suggests performance is not what I want and when proponents of the bullet confirm that type of performance � i.e. a wound channel of 13-15�, with high fragmentation. There is no doubt in my mind that that kind of performance works great when you stick one between the ribs or that such performance may cause problems when things don�t work out as planned. One thing I prepare for is a wounded animal heading away. If/when that happens I want a bullet that will penetrate deeply and I don�t trust Bergers to do the job. By contrast I�ve run North Fork and MRX end-to-end on muleys, dropping them in their tracks. A Berger could not have dropped them any faster unless they fell before the shot.



Use them if you want � they don�t meet my criteria and I�ve decided not to use them for good reasons. This �old school� guy prefers other modern bullets including North Fork, Barnes TTSX/MRX, AccuBond and so far they have worked just fine. Even the older Grand Slams performed very well, putting game on the ground quickly with 2 holes in almost every case.

Of the 10 elk I�ve taken since 2000, when I started keeping good records, 6 have gone straight down and two more went 5 yards or less. That leaves one that went 25 and one that went 40. It is possible 10 of 10 would have gone straight down with Bergers, but even Berger users don�t always claim straight-down results, so I doubt it.

Thanks, but I�ll stick with modern bullets that provide controlled but limited expansion, relatively high weight retention, penetrate deeply, provide good to excellent accuracy and work well under as wide a range of impact velocities as possible. The ones I use seem to be working just fine and I trust them to work in situations where my level of confidence in Bergers would be much lower.


Do that, and then look at the reports of those that have been less than thrilled with VLD performance. Then make up your mind.



Back to the first-hand experience red herring, yet above you suggest listening to others. Do so and you will find many happy stories and plenty of those that are less so.

I consider VLDs may be one of the best available for long range shooting. Inside 600 yards, which is what I practice to, I find no need for them and have valid concerns about performance at short range (high velocity impact) where I expect more fragmentation. No doubt performance would be fine on a well-placed broadside, maybe not so much on angles where other bullets would work just fine.

Fair enough. I am curious though if you would recommend the Berger VLD if you had to put one through an 800lb Bull Elk's paunch enroute to his heart at 75 yds? Realizing of course that real Elk hunters pass on those types of shots. I however am not a real Elk hunter (I've never even shot the all important real elk hunters obligitory cow elk for pitty sakes) so wouldn't pass on such a shot.

....................I wouldn`t hesitate in the least given your above example.

Have any VLD detractors here personally called and talked with Berger or studied their site? I doubt it. Maybe watch any of the videos previously posted on the Berger site, where various hunting VLDs were fired into carcasses including bone at point blank range? I doubt it.

Well I have called Berger on several occasions including a couple of times prior to my first VLD kill on elk several years ago. And one of the questions and concerns I had was regarding the maximum impact velocities where the bullet would still be able to do its job without fragmenting to hell before the vitals are greatly disrupted.

This is what they (one of the higher up techs) said....Using the hunting VLDs, "we like" an impact speed to generally not exceed 3000 fps. And that 3000 fps figure is not set in stone or is an absolute max.

Now given the average killing distances for elk all across the board, do you think that a 3000 fps impact speed and less would fall under most if not all of the cartridges used for elk? Now there may be some extreme examples where someone might use a 300 RUM at less than 100-150 yards using say a 185 gr Berger at 3350-3400 fps MV that he loaded to max that will exceed a 3000 fps impact speed. And who is to say, that a reloader cannot down load his 300 RUM Berger VLD hunting load a bit.

But given most elk hunting situations, a 3000 fps impact speed and less, will be far, far more common than otherwise.

And that is why I wouldn`t hesitate.

........Then we will agree to disagree for the most part. And I wouldn`t hesitate using a hunting VLD at a 30-35 degree angle on any elk given the proper shot placement, which needs to be done anyway regardless of bullet brand.

Now the bullets you have used for elk which you have posted work great. No one here on this thread including me never said they wouldn`t work. In fact they do a great job.

These VLD threads; use them or don`t use them, all boils down to individual bullet philosophy as to what one wants to accomplish internally.

But there is one thing for certain that cannot be overlooked. Given the same shot placements on elk, the Berger hunting VLDs will do far more damage to an elks vitals than any of the bullets you listed.

Each animal reacts differently after impact. Using the same Hornady, Speer, Nosler, and other bullet brands as well and given the same shot placements, one bull elk of a given size and weight may run quite a few yards after impact, while the other similar sized elk may drop right there (DRT).

And as Mule Deer mentioned earlier (paraphrasing), it is the degree of vitals disruption that determines how far an animal will run after the shot or how quick the kill is. Is that set in stone? Nope! Because an elk may run 100 yards after a near complete vitals destruction. There in lies of mystery of elk anatomy.

I like to think that we VLD users play the percentages. Kinda like a baseball manager when he subs for another batter or for another pitcher. He plays the percentages that he thinks will be favorable to his advantage. May not work as planned 100% of the time.

Still waiting to read an article by any gunwriter from any magazine, who has thoroughly documented a Berger "hunting" VLD failure.

If you have a link, then I`d sure like to read about it. I`m not talking about as an example....Well I have a friend,,,who has a friend,,,who has a buddy that,,,,,and so on, and so on, and so on.

Any documented or published articles from a gunwriter/gunwriters is what I`m looking for.

Nearly all of my VLD experience is on 60+ hogs. Only one VLD elk kill. But I`m willing to be enlightened before my next elk hunt, whenever the heck that`ll be.

You would be wrong, as I've both talked directly with Berger, studied their web site thoroughly and had an online discussion with someone from the factory. In addition I've read reports by those who were happy with the results and those who were not, watched numerous videos, studied photographs of recovered bullets and still find no reason to use them for my hunting.



I have a couple problems with the above - one with the 3000fps impact speed as being an upper limit where the Berger VLDs will work " fragmenting to hell" and the other the "average" distance at which elk are taken.

First, I have no faith the VLDs won't " fragment to hell" at considerably less than 3000fps impact velocities, especially if bone is hit or maybe even an unseen twig. In the Barnes bone/gelatin tests, for example, a 7mm 168g VLD impacting at 2830fps penetrated 14-1/4" and retained only 24.3% of its original weight - pretty much the results advertised by Berger.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/lab-tests/

As to the " average killing distances for elk", averages are just that - averages. Most elk are killed at ranges longer or shorter ranges. In 31 years I've never known at what ranges I would shoot until after the actual shot. One day might find me hunting the dense stuff while the next I'm looking across expanses of grass and sage. In years like 2007, where I anticipated 400-600 yards shots, I ended up taking one at 120 yards. A day or two later I passed on a second at 25 feet, only to take one moments later at 40 yards. Last year I was hunting sage with a bull tag in my pocket, in an area where I've taken several elk over the years, and took a muley buck on a quartering away shot at about 20-25 yards with a 180g MRX. The bullet's muzzle velocity was 3038fps last time I chrono'd one. The buck went maybe 3 yards and down. The next day I took my cow at 400 yards, my longest shot ever, with similar results - it swapped ends and took a step or so back the way it had come, then turned uphill for another step or two and went down. In any case, based on my "averages", I don't need a bullet that I think is best suited to ranges over 600 yards, partiularly since I only practice to 600.

Please keep in mind I bear no ill will towards those that choose differently - I just don't see VLDs as a viable solution for my hunting.

First line of your first post seems to sum it up pretty well.

Good thing you added 62 more posts and a few thousand words to the discussion. You keep grinding this hard and you are going to run out of axe.



While I hope the brand new LRX works well it is amusing to me that you are praising a bullet that has essentially zero real world use on elk. I would be willing to bet you have shot exactly the same number of elk with the LRX as you have with the VLD.



There really is no path to an elks heart through the paunch that does not also include his butt. This type of shot is based in myth.

There are a number of things wrong with trying to target the heart on from the back of the animal. The proper target is the pelvic structure to immobilize the animal and a finishing shot to the chest.

This shot is much easier to accomplish because the target area is readily visible and if done properly there is much less meat lost.

VLDs work very well for this shot and Kris killed this bull last year using this technique.



That being said it really is a bad idea to shoot trophy elk from the rear because it is much harder to judge how big or exactly which bull in a bunch.

This was the bull we were after. Low left of the 4.



This was the situation after the wolves bumped the bulls.





Unless that VLD blew 70 inches of bone off his head we shot the wrong bull. I took 29% of the blame because I told him the last bull was the biggest.



Moral of the story is shooting elk from the back is a bad plan in most situations but VLDs work just fine if you feel the need.



Bob,

You will have to try VLDs someday to truly understand the "magic". VLDs kill so quick that time actually backs up a few seconds.

I am going to throw this out and say in my experience VLDs tend to open slower at close range than at long range. I think this is because the heat softens the lead core and that takes a little distance.

I killed 2 elk last year at relatively close range (100 yd bull and 135 yd cow) and the VLD worked great. Both were shoulder shot. Used the .243 Win/105gr VLD on the bull.

Holy chit, theres more ammo hanging off that rifle than I carry in my pack...

I was guessing since bergers were such a great elk bullet, all you'd need is one???

..............CH...........I think that John Burns last posting sums things up quite well.

One quote you gave earlier on this thread that he points out, is that you have never used the VLDs for hunting. Well that is your choice not to use them. And as John Burns and I pointed out earlier, it seems clear on these VLD threads, that most if not all VLD detractors have not used them in the field.

And while you say that you know folks that have had VLD failures, there are always other mitigating circumstances as to why. Like why did the VLD fail? Did the elk get away?

I was looking for some real documented or real published links from articles from reliable magazine sources from you. Unless I missed something, I didn`t see any link or source from you in your previous post. Talking with others and getting their opinions are all well and good. But all that is, is 2nd party and beyond heresay. Actual evidence of failure trumps heresay.

So for you, the VLDs will never be on your hunting menu. And you can continue to justify your con opinions about them all you want. And that`s ok! Nevertheless, that does not diminish the fact that the VLDs are extremely lethal elk killers whether it be from the shorter ranges or at the longer extended ranges.

I simply asked the question if any con people to the VLDs called Berger and watched the videos on their site. When I stated that "I doubted it", that didn`t mean that I was 100% sure of that.

The hunting VLDs throw all kinds of wrenches into the traditional thinking of how a bullet "should" work after impact. Your choice is to stick with the traditional methods and thinking.

We successful VLD users at one point had to make the gamble and try them for ourselves for the very first time. It is obvious that you are not willing to go there.

Well until you do CH and are willing to set aside all the second hand heresay from this so and so and from that so and so, it seems to me that regardless of what you state that justifies their non use on elk, it is all conjecture based on opinion which you are entitled to have.

"FIRST" hand experience beats down the line heresay.

And how many times have we read about other so called bullet failure about other brand name bullets on this forum? There have been a few.

The bottom line is that your "after impact" bullet philosophy doesn`t match up with the hunting VLDS.

Pics display experience. Care to display your VLD experience?

...........Sure 406 SBC. I have plenty of 35mm and a few blow ups for ya to see....Come on down!

For you, a personal in person showing from me to you, would be very complimentory towards you.

I would like nothing more!

Kinda like a hen coming to the fox house.

I forgot, all of your experience happens inside your house. Seriously, if you can't display you've done more than read a gun rag then it's best to keep your mouth shut. Your experience sounds like nothing more than internet commando gibberish........

There is no way you killed an elk with a 243.

bigsqueeze -

First, thank you for keeping the discussion civil- that is more than a lot of people seem to be capable of doing. I agree that we agree to disagree.

As a side note, my intention on such threads as these is not to denigrate those who choose to use Berger VLDs or the VLDs themselves and I apologize if it seems otherwise. My intent is to provide a second opinion, primarily for the benefit of those who might otherwise choose the product based on one-sided and possibly biased information. Just as no one is going to persuade me that North Forks are a poor choice for my needs, for either performance or cost reasons, I don't expect to persuade someone who is happy with VLDs not to use them - nor is that my intent.


It isn't that I know people who have had "failures" per se, rather just performance that I don't find particularly attractive when other options are available that have a track record of providing performance I do find acceptable - even under adverse conditions where I wouldn't trust a VLD.


2nd party, yes, but a great deal of our learning is equally valid even if indirect. Photos and, videos are sources I consider quite valid, as are manufacturer claims in this case and personal accounts of people I trust.


Four things I have little doubt about:
1. A Berger VLD would have killed every elk and deer I've ever shot.
2. The difference in time-of-shot to elk-on-ground or distance travelled would have been very marginal at best.
3. Having seen the destruction caused by AMAX bullets use by my son-in-law, I've no doubt VLDs would have caused more, and quite unnecessary, meat loss.
4. When things go badly, as happened with the quartering away buck that moved and got hit in the ham, I trust North Fork, TTSX and Grand Slam to penetrate to the vitals. Not so much a VLD.


You are correct, I'll probably not bother trying VLDs - the first-hand experience of others and proud claims by the manufacturer are the primary reasons why.



First-hand experience with XLCs is the reason I could never bring myself to use TSX on big game. Second-hand reports confirmed my doubts, even though, as the poster says of Lester's ammunition, "It usually works".



When the MRX came out the tip gave me enough confidence of reliable expansion that I gave them a try. Some years later with multiple TTSX and MRX kills for myself and my hunting partners, I'm quite happy with the results. The TSX loads I had worked up were quite accurate but I've used them on paper and steel rather than risk another XLC-type incident. The North Forks never gave me concern and first-hand experience with them dropping elk in their tracks has only boosted my confidence in them. Someone may be experiencing failures with them but so far we have not.

By contrast, second-hand accounts of VLD experiences causes what I consider justifiable concern. Not everyone will agree.

By the way, if I was shooting hogs as I used to do coyotes or prairie dogs, I might well give VLDs a go. Different application, different needs, different acceptable results.

Wonder if ol John Plute was using Lester's� in his 30-40 Craig when he took the long standing record Dark Canyon bull?

While I certainly don't have the experience of many, I have killed one Elk....used a .270 with a 150 grain nosler partision. Killed lots of deer with Sierra Game Kings, many with a bow and even 3 with a .50 caliber round ball. The one simple thing that I try to do is wait for a clean shot regardless of the weapon. Use any decent weapon with a well placed shot....bingo. Not trying to over simplify this thread, but the guys killing game regardless of the bullet are hitting em where we should. Just my .02 cents worth. Have a safe and enjoyable season guys, take good shots and most decent projectiles will do the rest. Goodshot

Way too much common sense in your post "goodshot."

You're obligated to delete it as it's entirely too logical.

Guy

goodshot -

Waiting for a clean shot opportunity is highly recommended but the key word there is "opportunity". Many times the best opportunity presented is less than ideal, other times the shooter screws up or the animals moves at the last possible instant or the shot doesn't work out as intended for whatever reason. More than once I've been presented with "take the shot offered or go home empty-handed" opportunities and I've gone both ways as a result. As I've found in the past, a great opportunity does not always translate to great bullet placement. That is why I believe it is prudent to work for the best and plan for the worst. Most any bullet will work in the former case, not so much in the second.

My philosophy of "shoot them until they are down and stay that way" is shared by many responsible elk hunters. While some might think that means "fill the air with a wall of lead, reload and go again", what it has meant for me is a quick follow-up shot if the elk is still standing. The photo below shows what I think is the most bullets I've ever put in an elk, three total.

If you look closely you can see grass through the hole in the circle. That was from shot #1, a full broadside at 265 yards. The poor placement was my fault entirely and the cow was still standing and walking slowly. I adjusted my position, took shot #2, again on a broadside. The cow remained standing so I took #3 a few seconds later. Shots #2 and #3 made a single, elongated hole. On skinning the animal it became apparent shot #3 was unnecessary and simply hastened the inevitable - probably by no more than a few seconds.



The worst-case scenario for me would be a wounded elk that is heading away or a quartering shot from the rear where the elk moves as the trigger breaks, as happened to me with a buck muley several years ago. In such cases I want a bullet that will expand reliably but hold together for deep penetration, and even then there is no guarantee. That said, I've driven MRX and TTSX front-to-rear on muleys and a North Fork from ham to sternum on another. In my (all-important to some) first-hand experience these bullets have proven to be very reliable and quick killers regardless of the angle.

Less than three weeks ago Daughter #3 became a first-time homeowner. Two days ago severe winds came up and blew part of a neighbor's giant maple tree down on her home. Thank goodness Daughter #3 had insurance, which will pay for the repair of the hole in her roof, the damage siding, broken glass and cleanup. Stuff happens. That tree is of unknown age but it had been standing for many years without causing any problems. Stuff happens and the wise take reasonable precautions. Working for the best shot opportunity is only the first such precaution to my way of thinking. Once the trigger breaks it is all up to the bullet and choosing one that performs well under as wide a variety of circumstances as possible seems a logical second step to me.

Is there more, less, or about the same meat damage with Bergers as say Barnes or Patitions ?

Coyote Hunter, I agree to a point. I have made those shots you describe, mainly while bow hunting, and wounded and lost animals. I feel terrible when that has happened. I remember when Whitetail hunting in Northern Wisconsin ( I lived up there for 8 years) we would sometimes have to push deer out of tag alder swamps, and the shot angles were many times less than ideal. My bullet of choice was the Nosler Partision. Many of the newer bullets were not out then, and I could never get the older Barnes bullets to shoot out of my older Remington 721. I later purchased a .280 Remington Weatherby MK5 that shot just about everything great. So here is my bottom line....if I felt the hunting presentation was going to be such that less than perfect shot angles were probably going to happen, use a tougher bullet. We did a lot of stand hunting as well, and could usually wait for the proper shot angle.i now hunt Montana up in the wheat country for Mule Deer, some Whitetails and Antelope. Sierra Gamekings and Nosler Ballistic tips have worked perfectly. Now, if I headed to the Bob Marshall area or somthing like that....I would be taking my larger guns with tougher bullets, knowing that angle shots are going to be all that might present themselves. My point was mainly that the condition somewhat determines the bullet type. I think the John Burn's of the world are number one, superb rifle shots, twoM use top shelf equipment, three....practice a ton. I have personal limits I set on how far I will Try to shoot due to my skill set. I will not take a shot that is behind my comfort zone. I think we are both on the same page here, but I do think we all have a certain level of responsibility to pass on shots that are questionable at best. Best of luck this year, and thank you for a very fair comment and some great points. Goodshot

Gravestone,

Meat damage depends on where you put Bergers--but it's different than with other bullets. First, since they don't immediately start to expand, like every conventional hunting bullet. In fact the entrance hole is often so tiny you have to part the hair to find it, and the meat behind the hole isn't damaged, unlike conventional bullets where most shredded meat is right around the entrance.

The big damage occurs when the bullet expands after 2-3" of penetration, which normally means the innards get the worst of it--the reason Bergers kill so quickly. On smaller animals they often exit, and that's where the most meat damage can occur.

However, because Bergers do so much interior damage, I've found they kill just fine when placed a little further behind the shoulder than many of us place other bullets. If you keep 'em in the ribs, going and coming, meat damage is non-existent. A good example is the last animal I killed with a Berger VLD, a pronghorn buck taken with a 140-grain 6.5. He was almost broadside, just slightly quartering toward me, and I put the bullet a couple inches behind the shoulder. There was the typical knitting-needle hole there, and about a 1-1/2" exit hole in the middle of the ribs on the far side. The buck went about 10 yards, obviously dead on his feet. The inside of the chest looked like blood soup.

On bigger animals there often isn't enough left of the bullet to do any meat damage by the time they reach the far side. I shot a broadside red stag, weighing about 400 pounds, through the top of the top of the heart with a 168 from a .30-06. There was again the typical small hole through the meat of the shoulder, just behind the bone, but no exit. Fragments of the bullet pepper the inside of the far ribcage, but none penetrated the meat. The stag died right there, his heart literally turned inside out, into a loose flap of muscle.

I like that combination of quick-killing and minimal meat loss, but I've shot quite a few animals with VLD's and know how they work, so have faith in not having to put them through even the shoulder muscle for quick kills.

John "Back to the Future" as they say! Does the time lapse allow me to call back a lousy shot?

Well actually a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense (since you are one of those "couple of people" whose opinion I trust).

I don't know of an expanding bullet that can be relied upon to make it all the way from the rear end clear to the chest cavity of an elk, although have no doubt that it has been done....maybe a Barnes or other mono?

For the record I have never done it nor tried it on an elk, but have seen it done with the 338-210 NPT....and I tend to think it was mostly damage to the pelvic region that sort of ended things. Don't know where that 210 ended up.

One thing for sure and that is it seems the bigger the animal the more precisely they should be hit. I think the whole Berger conversation is over for me. ..lots of wasted bandwidth and folks are always going to have different opinions based on "what if" scenarios, plus personal preferences in bullet types and so forth; plus it is very hard to argue with so many carcasses.

I would rather have more conversations about why the 270 sucks so bad ....

Thanks John, I'm going to try the 105g in my .243.I have Rem. 700 w/ a 9 1/8 twist.
The fella that's going to load them has the same rifle and says they fly fine. I'll be using that load on whitetail.

2011 winter moose hunt on the west fork little delta, bud shot a moose 300 ultra mag using bergers bullets 200-250ydsc... From what i saw and moose trotting away after hit, bud was able to catch up with it on a sled and finish it off at 50 yds. will never use them... Their are better alternatives to the berger... [bleep] im using regular old 200gr speer hot cor in my 325wsm... Last yr we got two winter moose using 325 with 200gr accubonds... Two others used barnes bullets on thier moose...

I'll use VLD's in my 7LRM build, but I think if I get a rifle elk tag, Ill use heavy for caliber Accubonds, TTSX, or Partitions. Just personal preference.

.............I have enough to display. And it is my choice how to display them and by what method I damn well please.

And if you really wish for me to keep my mouth shut, then all you gotta do SBC is send me a PM, get on a plane and come down here and proceed to shut my mouth.

And if by some remote, stellar, and astronomical chance you happen to succeed, then I will no longer post on this forum again. You`d better get your meds plus your medical insurance updated. Facial disruptions, testicle relocation plus major bone breaks won`t be cheap to repair. Not a threat SBC. Just a fact. That`ll be your choice and major consequence to follow.

So! Wanna shut my mouth SBC?......Then go for it!

If not, then your words telling me to shut my mouth are pathetically useless.

Now! How many more times are you going to follow my posts telling me to keep my mouth shut? Your time to waste!

How about this. You can either put up or "you" can shut up. That works both ways...........

You never read anything from me following your posts. But since you seem obsessed with following some of mine and making your demands that I do this and I do that and to shut up as well, then what better a way to get your wish than get in person go- round with me.

I`ll keep an eye on my PMs...........Crickets, crickets and more crickets.

Another VLD saga continues. mtmuley

Glad your people skills are still intact. I'm just wanting some evidence that you are not the do-nothing-moron that your posts display. I continue to love your determination to defend your honor by sharing your threats/facts on every request. There is no doubt that once you're a bigliar, you're always a bigliar.

Lee24 lives...

Kent

Geeze.....I forgot the popcorn!

Go easy guys or he'll have to fake his own death again...

On second thought carry on!

Not me! NOT UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES. No way no how, not with a Berger, And yes I have used them plenty of times and have seen what they can do.

...............Yep! U want, U want and U want....."I`m just wanting" you say...........

Well you want some hunting/bullet evidence there SBC? Then you know exactly what to do and where to go to get your evidence.

Big liar and do nothing moron....Well that`s one comment easily typed on a keyboard. And no doubt, that is exactly where it will stay where you are concerned, because cowardly cowards don`t like any in-person confrontations.

You have more things to say, requests to make, or any other business with me,,,then use PMs.

Still trying to bait someone to come to your house. It would be pathetic if it weren't so sad. Take care of all this by hanging a couple pics of some of your elk/grizzlies/pigs. There's no need to pull the mall ninja card every time you get excited......

Knowing enough people that make their living hunting and shooting who recommend Berger's tells me a lot. And none are sponsored (that I know of).

Even old school guys who won't shoot mags and don't wear camo but still like the VLD's.

Now, full disclosure is that I shoot Accubond's from .30 mags at elk typically. Why? Because when I get comfortable with accuracy and I can predict down range performance, I get obsessive about not changing one iota.

That being said, I've got 110 grain VLD's on order for my .257 Weatherby for 3rd season deer and an antelope hunt this fall.

Almost forgot, this one was killed by a buddy I guided with a 130 grain VLD. Died pretty well.

dtspoke, good post!

..............Bait? Well I suppose that even you aren`t that dumb to take the bait. You`d be quite smart to stay where you are.

Ok! So let`s say I learn how to post pics by taking the 35mms still photos that I have and then doing whatever. Then what? You and a few others would then like me alot "mo" better?....

The reason I don`t care to and don`t need to, is because you and few others wish it. That is all the reason I need. I don`t need to appease anyone nor do I have the need to justify any credibility to anyone. That goes especially for you and a few others of whom I`ll never meet and could care less meeting anyway.

Hey! I can give you the serial #s of my rifles. Would that help a little?

Yep! I have three rifles that just sit there and do nothing. I have many containers of different powders that just sit there and do nothing. Many boxes of bullets and primers that just sit there and do nothing. And let`s not forget all of the reloading equipment; press, dies, caliper, case trimmer, etc and etc that just sit there and do nothing.

Your buddy? "bearcrapper" aka bearstalker PM`d me and also told me to keep my mouth shut. My response to him was the same as with you. Asking is one thing, actually doing so is quite another.

Good luck with all of your future hunting endeavors.

Take less time than you've spent posting on this thread, go to any camera shop, scan your photos (or let them do it for you), and leave with them all on a CD. That's all there is to it. Or take some of current hunts with your cell phone.

It does seem ironic that people who spend lots of time on the internet can't post a photo. It's not rocket science.

Sockpuppet alert...

Kent

Wait a minute.......isn't he dead?

Sock puppets don't die... they just unravel...

Kent

Invites from strange men in California do not interest me. Keep at it, perhaps you'll find a taker.......

I'd rather not think about all of the stuff you might own that sits around doing nothing. Your friend value is close to nil, but your do-nothing moron value increases with every post. You are much like the present Commander-in-Chief; lots of hope, lots of dreams, but no accomplishments. Still awaiting a pic of something you've done..........

P.S. I find it incredible that you can correctly spell credible, but I'm quite certain you have no idea what it means..

I love it when bigsqueeze talks in karate.

Check your PM's buddy. I responded. lmao

I've read most of this and being a novice elk hunter (killed one)that chases more than shooting them, no way will I go after them with a VLD. I have to put too much out there to be using a hollow point cup and core bullet. Deer I have no problem with it around the house. If I'm traveling after mule deer again I'll use a better bullet. By better I mean something along the lines of TTSX, TSX, Partition, Swift A-Frame and a few others along those lines. Penetration being my main concern as long as the bullet will open up to a certain degree. Not much chance for a blowup on the shoulder bone or whatever.

Just my humble opinion fellas.

You appear to be hunting some pretty open country Elk. Nice bull by the way.

No I have not killed Elk with the LRX. However I have put a few TSX's and TTSX's into them and by all accounts, at least from what I have seen, the LRX is them only better.

Yes you can put a bullet through the paunch of an Elk and hit his heart. My brother did that very thing to a bull that was feeding away over a slight rise. He was above the bull and the bull was turned such that that is exactly what happened. He plunked him with a 160 gr partition from his 7mm Wby at right around 50 yds. It went through the paunch and caught heart and a bit of lung somehow but it did not exit.

I would like to see more shots of internal damage caused by Berger bullets. They are supposed to pinhole in and then come unglued after two or three inches. However the only photo I've seen here does not indicate that is what happens at all.

After reading all of this post there is some great discussion on both sides of this topic. On that note, I load for both my brother and I's 7rm and use the 168 vld's with great success. To date we have one shot kills on his mountain goat at 380 yds, a 6 point bull right at 300yds, buck antelope at 430 yds and a doe antelope at 330 yds the same day, a muley buck at 80 yds, and a whitetail buck at 200 yds. We have only had one exit and that was on the doe antelope and it was a pretty good sized exit to say the least. Only ever recovered pieces of the bullets inside of the animals as it turns there vitals into jello very quickly.

I was lucky enough this year to kill my first elk with my bow, 5 point inside of 20 yds and if things continue that is my preferred method to hunt, especially elk.

That being said, I picked up a 243 this past winter and have it loaded with 105 vld's over Retumbo and plan on packing it hunting for antelope and deer this fall, possibly to hunt for my cow elk also. I firmly believe in shot placement and have passed if things are not coming together correctly, but I have never been on a guided hunt many miles away from home either. The high BC and great terminal performance is why I will continue to use Berger VLD hunting bullets.

Will keep my answer to the point. Only 30 cal 185 and 190 VLD experience on animals, at basically 30-06 velocities (I shoot an '06, my brother shoots a short barreled SAUM), short to intermediate distances, broadside and slightly quartering shots in lungs, handful of animals up to big elk. All down right there, all bullets exited. Really stellar performance IMO.

I tried Bergers for a few reasons: 1)John Barsness's write-up, 2)an exhaustive internet research of Berger's claims that provided many accounts of success, 3) running ballistics charts for my gun and looking at the real benefit that high-BC provides at moderate velocities and longer ranges, namely in wind drift and energy retention. The kicker was the tiny groups my gun made with them.

Ironically, the reasons I picked Bergers for hunting have so far been irrelevant in my actual use of them. But, just like many Berger detractors on this and other threads, I took my past experience, studied accounts of people I trust, researched what info I could find, and then made a rational decision based on what I want to experience while hunting. I simply came to a different conclusion, which is just fine. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. Use what you have confidence in, according to what you want to experience.

A thanks to those who, in a desire to further the collective knowledge, have thoughtfully articulated their answers here. You know who you are!

Sum Beach....Another Booger bullet thread.Why would any experienced hunter change bullets because it is popular on the internet?

I like 'lil John but he is making boo-koo's of money on this chit..Heard tell he has more stock in Booger bullets than Gates has in Microsoft.

Experienced hunters already know what works for them,right?

So why change for a supposed few yards?

Jayco

Kinda late to the party.

Ya,been getting wood and livin in the mountains until.......Dislocated shoulder and one hand pic'n......Never liked my left much anyway except for shooting which I won't be doing much of in the near future...

By the way,nice Antelope......

Jayco

Thanks Jayco, hope you mend up soon there......

You can't create the future by clinging to the past.

I'm sure hunters have been saying the same thing for hundreds of years about every small advancement. Thank God some of them have been willing to try something new, and often found it really did work better. If they hadn't we would still be hunting with spears.

Iffin it ain't broke,why fix it?

What exactly is advancement in bullets over some of the oldy but goodies like the Nosler or Core'lokt......

Example....Is the two .375 Nosler Accubonds pictured below to the left an advancement to the .375 Core-Lokt on the right?



Jayco

I'll bite, logcutter.

I respect JB's opinions, and I respect the factual data he relies on in his reports. I doubt he is trying to sell anything to anyone.

2nd, I didn't and still don't entirely subscribe to the "premium" bullet concept, premium meaning hard and expensive. I want bullets that kill, not make holes.

3rd, I wanted to make my 30-06 an accepted elk killer at 600 yds, acceptable being 1500ft/lbs of energy minimum. 600 yd shots happen where I hunt, and I discovered that high-BC projectiles not only retain their energy better, but buck the wind better.

They shoot more accurately in my gun than any other hunting bullet I've worked up loads for, also making a 600yd shot attempt ethical, and they cost 40-50 cents apiece. What's not to like? For me it is a win win win win. Common sense stuff.

I'm on board with the Bergers until I find out differently for myself. I've always liked a bullet that expands.


Why anyone would shoot a bullet that does this on anything other than African dangerous game, I don't know....

I think 'Lil John(John Burns) said it best about the Booger bullet.



1-I am not a shoulder shooter and the bullet I choose to use is not particular where it hits to work correctly.

2-This says it all..The Booger Bullet Hype has gone off the edge of sanity and common sense.

600+ yard Elk shots are not in my network,not that I couldn't make them with conditions being perfect but the margin of error at that range is not worth it for simple ole me.

I killed my last two tarps with plain,older than dirt,Remington Core-lokt's because I was to lazy to load up the Noslers on my bench until it was to late.

Jayco

Did somebody sneak into your box again?

Logcutter, unfortunately, since you've never shot Bergers, nor see a need to, you don't seem to be adding a lot to the discussion. Hype is a slang term for hyperbole, I believe, which means exaggeration. What has been pointed out about Bergers on this thread has been factual. I haven't read any claims that haven't borne out from someone's personal experience, so it isn't hype. There are things that Bergers probably won't do very well, but most of the hype I hear is from naysayers that have never shot Berger bullets at game. Sorry to piss on your parade. man, but they really are great bullets, and they really do what people say they do. I agree with John Burns that they don't necessarily produce 'Dead Right There'. All the animals I've seen shot with Bergers dropped right there though. We used a finisher on an elk, because she wasn't hit that well, and was still kicking when we got to her. She was down though, and anchored with that marginal hit. That was when I was utterly sold on the fragmenting bullet in the ribs for undisturbed game.

I'm not asking you to like them, or to try them, or anything like that, but I will happily defend them, with all of the facts on my side, and all the hype on yours.

Well howdy Slim...Long time no talk....Damn,nearly forgot about the box days.I have fond memories of 'flave in my box.

Are you a Booger man too?

Jayco

No hype here.....I am simply saying,once a hunter finds the right bullet for his needs,he should stick with it and not change/experiment because of hype on the net for another bullet.

I found my bullet some 50 years ago.They call it the Nosler Partition.When for some reason I am not shooting Noslers,the Remington Core-Lokt is my choice in loaded ammo.

If Booger bullets work for you and your kind of hunting,by all means,stick with them through thick and thin and don't change because of some new wonder bullet that gets all hyped up on the net...That was all I was saying...

Boogers and shoulder shots for you and Noslers and any shot for me....Gotta love the choices,bullets for anything.

Jayco

'Flave said that was a great time in his life as well.

Don't think 'slave ever got over you letting 'flave in your box though.

Yes, Boogers are good.

Yeah, no. I don't shoulder shoot, as I mentioned. I'm opposed to shoulder shooting, because I love the meat. Burns didn't say you have to shoulder shoot with Bergers. There are a few factors involved in planning and making longer shots, and John Burns was talking about his preferred shot. He makes longer shots than I will ever desire to, and the bone helps the bullet open when velocity has dropped way off. My longest planned shot still gives me plenty of velocity for expansion without hitting bone, which is what I want. I like your choice. If 500 yds was the longest shot I was planning for, Partitions would be a best option. The point I am making is that in my experience, Berger bullets are far LESS LIMITED than guys like you keep portraying. They are actually hunting bullets, just like an Accubond, or an SST, or a Partition. For most hunting that the average hunter does, BC isn't a factor, as shots aren't that long, and neither are mine. What I've found though is that Berger hunting bullets work just fine for all-around hunting, shoot accurately, and are far cheaper than a Partition. It's like magic!

They are awesome! Bergers cured my grandmother's gout! Berger bullets found me the best deal on a used car!

If they cured your grandma's gout---Count me in as the new Booger man.They are indeed a wonder bullet...

Jayco the Booger man....

I like it. How about Jayco the Sofa King?

It continues...... mtmuley

...as it should.

Looks perfect.They work great, its as simple as that.

Well I'd like to see a bit more frontal area myself...

But no doubt that Barnes "works",and penetrates.Besides I would bet $10 that the expanded frontal area(what really does the "work" IMHO) of a Berger is not much larger as it travels through animal flesh and bone.

Difference is the Berger is probably losing that expanded front as the jacket/core is torn apart(we know this because the excessive fragmentation is what some folks like,and even John Burns will say so because as he told me, the bullet just "collapses",and at the end of the wound channel there is more of the Barnes left to see it than with the Berger.

But a common misconception is that we either have bullets that totally collapse and fragment(supposedly great for anchoring game by making jelly of innards; or we have "hard" premiums that make long but narrow wound channels.

Fact is, that there are bullets that expand very well to a broad mushroom,do not fragment at all, retain practically all their weight,penetrate well,and will make an elk's innards look like a bomb went off inside them,particularly at very high velocity.And yes they will give a very high percentage of DRT's. I know this because I have used them on game from pronghorn antelope to Alaskabn Brown bear.

As a long range bullet (beyond 600 yards) they likely are not in the class of a Berger for flight characteristics but I know two Idaho elk hunters who have used them to 700 and 800 yards;one a 250 gr 375 from a 375AI,and another a 165 from a 300 RUM at over 3500 fps.

So,lung soup is not the sole purview of fragmenting bullets.

...and not all elk are killed in the open terrain of the American Southwest with broadside shots (where I have hunted many times);in other places,some have to be killed at rock throwing distances or across broad canyons maybe on the same day with the same rifle and load.Some people may appreciate that Barnes under those circumstances, as much as the Berger guy uses those to hedge bets at 600 yards plus.


For anyone interested Nosler Partitions are completely ethical bullets and perfectly capable of knocking the snot out of bull elk at 500 to 600 yards,not only from the 30/06 but from a number of other cartridges as well. Reading charts and studying tables may not tell you this but seeing it done and doing it yourself, will.

Dam, this stuff becomes cult like for some.

Sure glad I live where elk are all shot broad side in open pastures. It would suck to have to shoot across a canyon or hunt where you can't see 1 mile. Laffin' at that one.

SLM: I have generally found shooting NM elk....pretty "easy".


But I don't live there.So you may know things I don't.

The bullet on the right is the only Barnes TTSX or MRX my hunting partners and I have ever recovered. This one was a 180g MRX from my .300WM @ 3100fps, recovered from a herd of water jugs at about 15 feet. Damn thing lost a petal.



From left to right:
4 jugs == Sierra 200g FP .458" @ 2390fps, 81% weight retention (left group of five, front row center)
6 jugs == Speer 300g Uni-Cor .458" @ 2247fps, 59.6% to 72.5% weight retention, 68.8% average (remainder of left group)
8 jugs == Speer 350g FP .458" @ 2147fps, 87.6% weight retention
6 jugs == North Fork 350g .458" @ 2189fps, 97.4% weight retention
9 jugs == Cast Performance 460g WFNGC .458" @ 1812fps, 76.5% weight retention
5 jugs == Hornady 220g FP .375" @2230fps, 65.7% weight retention
7 jugs == Barnes 180g MRX .308" @ 3100fps, 93.4% weight retention

This cow from 2012 took a 180g MRX at 400 yards (+/- a yard or two per GPS), broadside at a down angle. It swapped ends, took a step or two, turned uphill for another step or two and collapsed. There was no shortage of internal damage. The exit side is shown.



Barnes bullets � just can�t trust them�

I like it, right up there with Booger bullets and hemorrhoids.

Jayco

And of the three, you only have experience with the latter........

Seriously though, it's funny how so many guys who will never use the bullets have such a strong opinion on them.

Not true..I have experience with Barnes bullets..458 that were given to me..My wife calls them the cement bullet.

No experience with Boogers only because long ago I found my bullet of choice..I am not one to fix something that is not broke.No need to experiment on this end.

In the 50's and 60's the Sierra was the king of reloading bullets for game around here.It worked like the Booger...In a few and it blew up...Nice if deep penetration is not needed which mostly, it was sufficient except that 1-2% of the time.

Hell, the biggest complaint I have heard about the Nosler is the front portion exploding off leaving only the rear partition,like a Berger on front with a partition behind..Two bullets in one..What's not to like.

Jayco

Exactly my point. Never used vlds and never intend to.

I have been in almost every area of NM that holds elk. Just like any state, in some of those areas elk can be found in the wide open while in others 25 yards is a long ways. So yes, maybe me living here I have seen a lot of what you have not.

You mean to say your taking this all serious?

I'm going with what was said by Booger users, like Mule Deer....



That sums it up right there...Boogers are for special needs not an all around Elk hunting bullet such as Partions/A-Frames/North Forks and a host of others.

Jayco

A whole lot of talking by guys that don't intend to even try Bergers. It gets so old, pointing out that the sales job you all keep trying to do has no audience among Berger users. I don't shoot them because I was convinced to, or somehow tricked into it. I appreciate your efforts, but I'll still have Bergers in my rifle when I hunt open canyons this year. For timber hunting, and 100yd shooting, a lever gun in 44 mag is my huckleberry pancake.

There ya go right there...You have bullets you have chosen for your type of hunting based solely on your experiences with elk bullets,and so do I.

While you choose your 44 for up close and personal,I can use any rifle I own, with Nosler Partitions.

It's all about choices based not on internet talk but actual experiences we have done or seen....

I like my 45-70 to about 300 yards with a 300 Nosler at 2300 fps.

Jayco

Has it occurred to you that maybe the audience isn�t current Berger users but rather those who are considering various options? For myself, I don�t expect to alter nay Berger user�s opinions of VLDs, although some have tried them and found them not to their liking for the same reasons people like myself have chosen not to use them in the first place � for the most part they seem to act just like the manufacturer claims they will. Sorry, but that isn�t the type of performance I want from the bullets I use.

I can see that the audience is mainly Berger detractors. The OP asked for experiences with Bergers on elk, yet the thread drew many of the usual suspects, who once again pontificate and preach of the evils and limitations and failures of target bullets on game animals.

Do you see what I am getting at here? Bergerphobia. If you don't like what they do, there are many other bullets you can use. I don't just shoot Berger bullets in my rifle. I may not hunt solely with Berger bullets. There are real benefits to using VLD, high-BC bullets, and I've yet to see any of the limitations that are often touted as the inherent flaws in Berger bullets for game.

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

OP's question...



Coyote Hunter, do us a favor and quit wasting space here. (i want to say shut up, but that would not be polite). So far you have offered nothing but hot air and no content to the OP's question.
You have ZERO hunting experience with Berger's and you seem bent to hijack this thread

That's the way Berger threads usually go. Most of the posts come from people who say they'd never even consider using a Berger. To make sure nobody has missed their point, they repeat it later in the same thread, saying the same thing, usually right after somebody provides their "real life" experience with Bergers.

Though most of 'em do say, "Feel free to use whatever you want," at least after the 5th time they post.

Ha! Yes, so true. They think they are doing the world a favor.

They are nothing but an old scratched up (annoying) record.

Is it not the Pro's and Con's of any bullet that make or break a user's interest?

All Pro's don't tell us much as well as one kill with a certain bullet.There are two sides to any story and with nothing but Pro's,your building up the bullet to much,as "Lil John said.

Jayco

Sure, let's hear it all pro and con...of Berger Bullets, from people that have experience with THEM.

There is another interesting thread on Berger bullets not performing at Long range hunting with pictures and stories of Bergers not working to be fair to the opp.

Well worth a look if your interested or haven't used it much.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/pics-berger-bullets-not-performing-103068/

Jayco

You ask and you shall receive...People who have used them alot....

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/pics-berger-bullets-not-performing-103068/

Jayco

All ready read those links.

Jayco, did you read that whole thread on Berger failures? I did. Because I am interested in all the information I can get my hands on. What I'm not interested in is reading the dribble that donkeys and mules who have nothing productive to add to the discussion keep posting. I get your leanings. You shoot Noslers and CoreLocts. They are what you've shot, and what you will shoot. I get it. Why in the hell are you posting on a 'experiences with Bergers and elk' thread? Find a 'I worship Partitions' thread, or start one.

Donkeys and mules?Wow.......

Do you have to shoot several dozen elk with a .338 Win Mag to know it works even though others have proved it time after time?

Someone asked for experienced opinions and I gave it being the mule I am or is it Donkey.....Who knows....It appears some of the Booger users have some thin skin.

Don't be an ass and start name calling...Get it ..ass...

Your taking this internet chit to serious.

Jayco

You are making my point for me, so thanks. Try Bergers. Hell, try them in a 338 Win Mag. Then tell us about it.

In the interest of balance, here is another link: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/lets-see-your-berger-kills-94959/

I know you guys all mean well, but really, I want you to know, Berger bullets work fine for hunting at long and short ranges, in a plethora of situations. There is ample evidence of this, and documented accounts of hundreds of people in support. They aren't magic, and they do things other than what some would have them do, but for me, and for so many, my experience, though limited, supports their acceptable use on big game. I hear they don't often exit, but that hasn't been my experience. I hear they are soft, but I have seen no lack of penetration. They just behave differently that most hunting bullets. Not better, just different. There is a sort of philosophy behind their use for me, a set of ideals that they fit into, just like TTSX, Accubonds, Partitions, SAF, etc, fit into the ideals of others.

I understand the desire to shoot tough bullets. I've got some loads worked up with some Interbonds and SST's, and I've got a box of Accubonds and a few Partitions, all brands 180s, to work up as well. How I will use them remains to be seen. Maybe I'll put one in the pipe for close shots, and then if I need to stretch it out a long way, I'll swap for a VLD.

I don't attach a dogma to bullets. I will use what I like, and I encourage others to do the same. And to share diverse experiences from mine. Rant over.

Well said! It doesn't matter what the other guy uses as long as your happy.

What if I don't want to use Bergers, BUT DO WANT EVERYBODY TO NOTICE ME!?!

I've found walking down the street naked gets a lot of attention.

Seems if you DON'T use Bergers is when everybody notices you. I can't quite figure out why the need to explain how good they are, if they are really that good. And yeah, I've used them. mtmuley

It seems we agree more than we disagree.

Like you, I know Berger VLDs work well most of the time. From the accounts of others and photos I also know they can be very destructive � as one would expect from the manufacturer�s own performance claims. As a result I have no need or desire to try VLDs and prove on a low sample count what others have proven many times over.

Mule Deer (John Barsness) once claimed I made my bullet decisions based on cost (the reference was primarily about North Fork bullets) and persisted making the claim even after I explained I used them in spite of the cost, not because of it. I pay my own freight and use what I do because it works for me. In my first post in this thread I explained why Berger VLD�s are not for me. The responses of some of the VLD advocates have been to ignore rational and impartial discussion and resort to ad hominem attack. (From which I consider them to have conceded they cannot support their case based on facts.) Damn � you�d think I was advocating independent religious thought back in the days of the Spanish Inquisition.

It�s kind of like deciding whether or not to try meth � with all the information available from various sources, first-hand experience isn�t really required to make a well-reasoned and intelligent decision. If a person wants the performance a Berger VLD can provide I�m perfectly OK with their choice and I wish them the best.

I used to think the only way to kill an elk-sized animal humanely was to shoot tough bullets in bigger bores. After opening my mind and considering the experiences of others, I killed a 6X6 with a puny 6.5mm 140 grain bullet originally designed to outperform other target bullets in matches.

Did I mention it was the quickest, most humane kill I've ever witnessed or personally had?


I'll still shoot accubonds, ballistic tips, A-Maxes as well. If I ever go to Africa for elephant, rhino or hippo, I'll consider Barnes

MD nails it again

How many elk have you killed with a barnes or mono copper bullet?

Kent

Kent

That begs me to ask:How many Elk or animals does one have to shoot "himself" with any given caliber or bullet to have enough examples to claim such caliber or bullet is a reliable killer?

We all know the Barnes/Nosler and others are proven killers as the .338 WM/'06 and others are great big game calibers so, do we have to do it again and again/each of us to show once again they work until we meat some magical number?

Nothing personal but it is a question I keep asking myself when I read these forums.....

Good luck on your hunting this year....

Jayco

Zero. I'm sure they work well as all the others, but I think their construction is overkill, their BC sucks compared to most any other bullet in the same caliber, accuracy can't hang with Match Grade bullets, and they are Kalifornistan mandated/friendly politically correct. (not a knock whatsoever on the owners of Barnes, Randy and Connie, who are fantastic people and unsung heroes in the Wolf War)

I think mono-metals have their place, but are unnecessary for most NA big game. African game brain shots and tougher-than-hell cape buff/rhino hide? Yes!

I just find it curious that someone with one VDL kill and no Barnes kills, has multiple posts on a thread comparing the two... and the task takers ignore it.

Kent

In case anybody's forgotten (and many apparently have) this was the original post in this thread, from Landkiller:

"Who uses Berger bullets for elk? Results/experiences please."

He did NOT ask who will never use Berger bullets for elk, or who has used both Bergers and other bullets for elk. He asked who has used them, and what happened, and rcmuglia's elk qualifies. His reason for not using monometal bullets are a little bit of side-issues, but not really, since they illustrate why he chose a Berger, and his dead elk illustrates that in his instance it worked great. Which is what the OP was asking.

Very soon after it started the thread wandered off into the realm of "not me!" and what MIGHT happen. This doesn't seem to occur when people ask about other possible elk bullets, whether Barnes Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions or AccuBonds or even Remington Core-Lokt's. Apparently only Bergers get the theory and pulpit boys stirred up--usually the same boys who've already expressed their opinion five or 10 or 100 times earlier on the same subject.

Now, back to our regular programming. I can see a line forming already.

Ironic is when you say "When you do it this way, you don't need a stupid Barnes X solid copper bullet".

That is funny.

Barnes threads here in the past have been just as turbulent... the VDL is the new kid on the block and going through growing pains, it'll get hashed out.

Kent

I wonder how anyone ever killed anything, including elk, prior to 1985, the year Barnes introduced the expanding X Bullet?

Or before 1979, the year Barnes introduced the Solid for African Dangerous Game?

Karamojo Bell probably thinks that's really funny

You should have just left the barnes bashing out... instead you opened yourself up to the same criticism others have taken in this thread... for continually commenting on a bullet they've never used.

Kent

How did they kill anything before 1903? :-)

So you can't say the .338 win mag is an elk killer if you haven't used it or maybe the Nosler is one of the best bullets out there, if you haven't used it?

Sounds a little Commie to me.

Jayco

So how do work the word 'stupid' into describing a 338 as an elk killer.

The correct correlation is saying a stupid 338 is too tough for elk.

Kent

Maybe you ought to explain that one to the thousands of people who use it successfully year after year like Jack Atcheson and many others.

Who died and made you hall monitor?

Jayco

Damn you're dense... My 338 has killed plenty of elk... your analogy of my comment was 180 degrees from it's context.

Kent

Must be a slow day in Hooterville......

Thursday night wrassl'n at the Y...

Kent

I just don't get this where people jump in bashing others like they own the damned forum saying who should post and who should not.....

Do we have to ask first and who should we ask if we have anything related to the topic/good or bad.

I'm reporting this to deflave....

Jayco

Have you been taking some night classes? Your english has gotten much better.

You have misinterpreted my posts, obviously. I meant that the Barnes have their appropriate use and are "stupid" when they are used on game for which they are unnecessary; a bullet of normal construction would suffice.

It's also called an "opinion". If you want to hunt whitetails with a .416 Remington and a 350 grain X Bullet, enjoy!

...but is it what is needed to humanely kill one?

Android external keyboard with Opera browser and spell check, thank you....

Jayco

I'm bored.

I have a box of 30 cal 208 Amax. Loaded up some test ladders with H4831, R-22 in my '06. This year, Bergers will be in my gun when I'm chasing elk. Next year, it will be the Amaxs. Back-up will be 180btsp Speers.

Flame on.

And now instead of talking Bergers for elk, can we talk about elk for Burgers????

Burgers taken with Bergers.

Those are great looking Burgers! Can't wait to hit the mountains!

Berger Burgers. You gotta love it.

rc', thinks he knows something about food.

I've eaten for years, so I better!

Those burgers look pretty fabulous! Rcamuglia, you're doing fine work! I ran out of elk burger in August...

Time to load some Bergers. It's October already!

I have the rounds loaded...need to verify 0 and try a verify drops at as far as I feel comfortable shooting this year...

close:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5854931/1
Far:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4610380/1

They are killers.

You guys are kinda behind the power curve, aren't ya?

Flight 168 is fueled up and hoping for clearance in 24 hours.

Negative Ghost Rider, the pattern is full.

Hey kid, what I miss around here?

Just lots of speculation. I'm hoping 30338 puts the topic to rest this weekend with a big ungulate with lots of headgear.

Tanner

Thanks..

Uh, members here actually go hunting?

About a 1/3 hunt, is my best guess.

I don't need to hunt to know that Barnes kills game BETTER than Berger VLD. Oh, wait.

I think most here hunt for about 2 days, max, per year. Shoot the first dink that comes along, take hero shots, post them on the internet. Then spend the rest of the year talking about it.

Yep

Kent

Would it be brash to say that some of the comments seem along the lines of video-game mentality?

Up-grade your elk rifle by trading integrity points to kill elk with fewer bullets!

Next up-grade, warmer dryer clothes, better boots and an energy bar and power drink!

[bleep] this chit, I'm going hunting..

Bring the right bullets, and good luck!

I try to get all mine done in 1.5 days or less.

I recently read on the Internet that Berger bullets work far better if you shoot them boattail first. When shot backwards actually fly flatter, drift less in the wind, and act exactly like Barnes TSX's when they hot elk. Anybody here able confirm this from actual experience? I have a bunch of Bergers and want to use them on my one day of hunting this fall.

I'm pretty sure that TTSX's work better than Bergers when shot backwards. My dentist's ex-brother-in-law shot an elk with backwards bergers and the elk got away.

I too hunt almost one entire day a year, but I spend 8 days a week at the range testing stuff just like you heard. How'd you think that talk started anyway?

If you want the knitting needle entrance, shoot the Berger pointy end first, if you want the Black Talon/TSX multi-petal mushroom, shoot the Berger boat tail first.

Shot boat tail first, the thing looks like a friggin' comet on the way to the target

Looking forward to seeing what the score to beat this year is. Treat this week as a warm up and don't spot too many elk for the old guy

I heard you load the bullet backwards when you're planning to shoot the elk in the butt, is that true?

We don't hunt elk here in Missouri. Our ancestors killed them all with muzzle loaders 150 years ago. Buffalo too. Elephants and tigers, well, our remote ancestors wiped them out with flint-tipped projectiles.

I bet those were made of controlled-expansion flint, though they probably didn't have polymer tips.

Boattail!

Gotta go, packing for second day of elk camp.

Most usually pack for the whole trip! Never heard of packing for each day!

Most of us only hunt a partial day a year.

Get with the Program!

are yall really still bitchin about this? isnt it actually hunting season right now.

I for one, would much rather see a summary of someones hunting success (or at least a good lessons-learned) summary from a recent trip, rather than seeing the last volleys of a month-old pissing match.

yall really need to give up bickering, and take up hunting. its a helluvalot more fun, and way more productive.

all that said, good luck in the coming seasons, no matter what bullet you're using. :P

in the interest of a better re-direct.... I had a great, (albeit fruitless) trip to Colorado this year. We went 0 for 4, but had a great time. Several opportunities presented themselves, but we never closed the deal.

And none of us had a Berger in our pocket (while bowhunting).

shane

Well it took a few days on the bear, but the cow moose was only a day. I am not opposed to killing a bull in about 10 hours from now though. To be safe I did bring along a few extra supplies though:). Good luck to those headed out tomorrow, be safe.

I got some rabbits with a 124gr FMJ. Seemed to work pretty good except to the ear hit.



Lesson learned was that bunnies need noggin shots not ear shots and even the awesomely powerful 9mm with 124 FMJs won't produce a "DRT" without decent shot placement.

Lower the rear sight and load Bergers

VLDs in my carry gun? The bad guys had better keep a very low profile.

I understand Eric and the crew at Berger are coming out with a VLD 124gr 9mm. It has a BC right at 0.875 on the G1. Going to be the hot setup in a defensive pistol.

Probably a good thing

If a VLD can drop 800 pound animals instantly like I've seen, Bad Guys and agressive rabbits are cake

Watch out for the rabbits.

I am entirely happy with my Long rage accubonds.

Very High BC
super accuracy
good penetration
good weight retention
good expansion

and they do not look like crap when recovered----personal thing.

Perfectly said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rebated boat tail. Matrix bullets start.

My son and I both shot 6x6's using bergers each one shot kills.

We where hunting in northern New Mexico

I shot a 5 point Bull this yr 247 yds with 185gr Berger out of my 300 RUM with a muzzle Velocity of 3195 FPS

the damage to the bull was huge!! Bullet worked exactly like it should have!! I'm sold on them!!

Killed my bull this year in Wyoming. Rem 700, .300 Win Mag, 185 Berger Hunting VLD. One shot, quartering away, 474 yards. DRT!





Worked just like advertised for me!

Keith

I've been really tempted to try Bergers 'cause they shoot VERY well from my '06 but I just don't want to mess with success....180 Accubonds and H-4350 at old standard .30/06 velocities has worked for my last eight bulls. From 23 yards out to 475.