Well I followed my carrion smelling heeler today. The dogs been knawing on a frozen adult cow elk. She is frozen solid to the ground. I got photos. Gonna get measurements. If some one could email me at jwcowdoc@gmail.com we could post the photos. It is as close to perfect a specimen as I could hope for. Thanks your pal Anus.

Angus, ya might wanna add the "G" back in there........

Nope I ain't cam. Gonna own it. Keep pounding.

I look forward to seeing this. Take photos with a tape measure visible! Great find Angus.

I have no photo bucket access. Can some one post them? I can email them. At [email protected].

Just emailed you

Sent some photos. The elk is frozen to the ground so I can get more. I took some measurements will list them after photos post. Thanks. John

Hmmm...they haven't come through yet. My email is working, as I have emailed a couple people back and forth today. Did you get a bounce back message?

Yep it failed. Can you email me?

ya, hang on

Re sent. My freaking spell check is outta control.

Got them..stand by.

Spell check has caused me considerable pain. I should figure out how to turn it off.

Here ya go....

And the rest

Thanks for posting photos. It is of a frozen cow lie in sternal. Left side of animal. The skeleton from first rib to end of pelvis is 53 inches. The ribs I count 13 of em is 29 inches. At rib seven is the start of the rumen ingesta. This ball of frozen rumen contents is 12 inches wide and 17 inches long. I believe a live animal would be larger. It lays along the left rib cage starting at rib seven going back towards the tail. The metal ring in the photos is seven inches in diameter. The spinous process of the spine are 8 inches before the scapula and 5 inches behind it. The depth of the lung field is a maximum of 16 inches. This deepest part is where the scapula us positioned. It is my belief a elk lying down will have the scapula shifted foreword. The area behind a standing animal where there is lung are would be slightly less than the 8 inches shown in the photo. As you can see neck of the scapula is about dead center of the lung field. With 9 inches in front and 9 inches behind.

The pic with the tape shows the spine of the scapula ...something to avoid when bow hunting as it is almost 2 inches deep.

If any wants different photos or measurements or questions let me know. It is still there frozen.

Whats it weigh?

Time to bring this back to the top.

Angus and I have collaborated in getting some photo information together. He made some measurements on the dead cow elk that his carrion dog found. See Photo 1. I came up with some photos to show cows, bulls, anatomy, and angles. Extrapolating a bit from the physical measurements he made I came up with the depths from hump to brisket on adult cows and bulls.


Photo 1

Those depths are approximately 30 inches for a bull and 24 inches for a cow in this photo. See Photo 2. The red arrow shows the top to bottom depth we measured then calculated using photo scaling. The yellow circles I’ll explain next.


Photo 2

OK, now I am putting on my Nomex fire gear. Angus said I can expect flames. Please note, I am giving information here, not instructing you where you must shoot.

Because this discussion started with the question about a “shoulder shot”; the question was “Is it bad idea to try to break a bull elk down by shooting the shoulders?”, the ensuing discussion showed that there were a lot of different interpretations of what a shoulder shot is, or even what a shoulder is.

However the question posed said “break a bull elk down by shooting the shoulders” so this was what Angus and I looked at from an anatomical view. He tried to measure within the ribcage of that partially consumed cow where the lungs were, where the rumen started in relationship to the leg bones, and took photos with a metal ring 7 inches in diameter. The leg bones were displaced somewhat by the scavengers, so the position is not quite correct. The shoulder blade was pulled downward as was the humerus, and that displaced the scapula-humerus joint downward, leaving it too low on the ribcage.

I took that to the photos of live elk standing up. Photo 2 above has yellow circles placed over the approximate joint between the scapula (shoulder blade) and humerus (upper leg bone). On one cow elk in the foreground there is a yellow arrow pointing to the location of that joint.


Photo 3

Photo 3 shows the right leg scapula and humerus of a mature bull elk. Note the 2.5 inch long .338 shell on the ball end of the humerus for scale. I will mention that on the upper end of the scapula, in life, there is a half-moon shaped piece of hard cartilage that adds length to that bone and supports additional musculature, adding to the appearance of the hump over the shoulders. While the shoulder blade is not as much as a half inch thick anywhere except at the head that articulates with the humerus, the ball of the humerus is massive. The top surface of the ball is an oval that measures 4.5 inches long by 3.5 inches wide, and it is solid bone.

That joint is nearly centered (vertically) over the lungs according to Angus’ measurements. So if you can get totally through that ball and into the chest cavity, you do have a solid lung hit. But your bullet needs sufficient mass and energy to smash through and have effect inside the thorax.

If your intention is to stop a bull you will likely need to smash both joints - onside and offside - with your shot. If you can do that, then your elk is probably both anchored and quickly dead. That particular hit, however, does make a mess of the shoulder meat with bloodshot, bone fragments, and torn muscle. It does not help meat quality. If you only break the scapula higher up, or even only break one foreleg without your bullet entering the chest cavity to reach the lungs, it will not prevent the elk from departing. If you failed to penetrate the lungs with that shot, then you may have a lost elk.


Photo 4

On the other hand, on Photo 4 there are red circles that are scaled to be about the same size as the metal ring Angus used. On the broadside cows, the center of those circles indicates a location that just misses the humerus bone, and depending on exact placement may entirely miss the usable meat on the shoulder. It provides a double lung hit, and may sever the aorta where it comes out the top of the heart. A little low is a heart shot. A little high is still a solid lung hit. (See photos 6-9 in next post - size limit?)

On the quartering animals, the shot on the bull may break the onside shoulder or it may just slip in ahead of the bone, doing little meat damage. It should miss the offside joint and humerus. On the forward quartering cow, the center of the red circle should slide in just in front of the bone on the right shoulder and depart the chest behind the left upper leg bone, with a double lung hit. The margin for error to get 2 good lung hits on that particular animal might be a bit slim.

That cow in the center is just problematic. She is quartering and that is compounded by the fact that her body is also curved to the right. Aim further back than the yellow circle, you clip the rumen, any further forward you get a marginal one lung hit, even inside the circle it is not a great hit. Best answer is to wait for a better angle. (For the sake of the discussion we are obviously ignoring animals behind these examples.)


Photo 5

Photo 5 gives you something to dream about. Nice clean broadside shot at a couple of bulls. Keep in mind my software for this is not perfect for placing circles.

Photos 6-9:



Photo 6 – Musculature is a pretty reasonable depiction of the shoulder muscles wrapping around the scapula and humerus.



Photo 7 – Skeletal, on this drawing we think the leg bones (scapula and humerus) are drawn a little forward of their actual position on a live, standing elk.



Photo 8 - On the circulatory system illustration, the circle indicates the area in the center of the lungs and at the top of the heart that the other circles on the drawings show, and also the locations in the broadside animals in the photos.



Photo 9 rounds out the drawings with internal organs. The illustration of the lungs is probably intended to show them inflated with a breath just inhaled.

Well done. What I would like 2 add is the artists rendition of the broadside bull shows the scapula as being too far foreword toward the head of the bull. The scapula is also not to scale...it is too small. The last piece of art work where the rumen is drawn in shows the lung field on that bull is not to scale....it is too large. The rumen starts between rib number 7 and 8. Thanks. Ass a side note I do not believe scavengers displaced much of anything on the dead cow photos. The cow was frozen hard and immovable. However the front leg is angled foreword due the cow laying down as opposed to standing.

Thanks guys for the collaborative tutorial! Its a great refresher course for all elk hunters, with the excellent illustrations. Its really helpful for prospective elk hunters.

Hey Angus.........you read too much!
Regards,
Knarley

By the way...gnarly sending u a Glenfield also.

This may be the most informative post I have ever seen on a hunting forum. Thanks for taking the time to put this stuff together, well done guys.

Thank you. At least that winter kill cow accomplished more than making my house stink from the dogs belching. John

Thanks LDB, our aim was to provide something useful.

Angus got the gaggy part of gathering data, but as a large animal vet he must be used to this stuff, eh? Then again, he did start this with a nearby dead elk, and did volunteer to gather data.

On the other hand, I got to push the pixels around - light work, but frustrating. It took a while to get all the illustrations done.

It was interesting to work on this with a complete stranger. Thanks for doing the gaggy part Angus. Feel free to add anything you think I missed.

I just think the guy that took the time and posted my carcass photos also needs to be thanked! Without those photos it would have never happened. T Inman Thank you.

No prob...I always look for info on this type of thing...

I appreciate it.

Tipmover,

We could not answer your question with what Angus had available, but here is an answer that may help to get to what your question was. There are a lot of ways to weigh a dead elk, and most are not easy in the field.

The information from a study done at the University of Wyoming gets to the answer of the questions of how much does a field dressed elk weigh, how much boned out meat can you get off it, and what was the probable live weight.

The whole paper can be found at this address. http://www.wyomingextension.org/agpubs/pubs/B594R.pdf

It was a thorough study of bulls and cows and the weights expected.

I am putting some excerpted parts of the paper here for information since this was a good question. I will say that for weight measurements on a few whole animals I was able to make, the UW weights line up closely to what I had. Their boning method of trying to get every scrap of lean meat matches mine.

This is part of the paper:

"The Elk Carcass
R.A. Field, EC. Smith, W.G. Hepworth, and W.J. Means‘
University of Wyoming Agricultural Experiment Station - August 2003 - B-594R

The amount of boneless meat to expect was determined by processing hunter-harvested carcasses. Factors affecting the flavor of elk meat and the relationship between aging and tenderness are discussed [in the actual paper, but not here]. The new knowledge obtained from this study makes it possible to better utilize meat obtained from harvested elk.

Information collected:

Field-dressed carcasses of six bulls and six cows were delivered to the University of Wyoming meat laboratory. Each was split, and one side of each was skinned immediately. The sides were placed in a 38-degree-Fahrenheit cooler at 70 percent relative humidity. Both sides were aged two weeks except for a loin sample which was removed for tenderness tests.

Weight losses during aging were recorded. After aging, one side of each carcass was cut into retail cuts, and the other side was separated into bone, fat, and lean. Loin roasts from both sides were saved for flavor and tenderness determinations. Lean and fat from the boned side were later ground together and sampled to determine moisture, fat, protein, and ash content. The shoulder was removed at the natural seam and boned. All remaining muscles were removed from each hanging carcass. The knife was kept close to the bone so that more meat could be saved and so that large muscles could be used as steaks and roasts. Natural seams were followed when removing muscles from the round between the major round muscles were removed.

Previous printings of this bulletin listed weights of semi-boneless retail cuts, but this printing lists boneless cut weights only. The boneless method of cutting is recommended for elk harvested in areas where chronic wasting disease (CWD) exists and is commonly used by game-meat processors.

The six bull elk studied had an average field-dressed weight of437 pounds. They ranged in age (determined by the wear of mandibular cheek teeth) from 1.5 to 9.5 years with four bulls being 2.5 or 3.5 years old. The six cows averaged 339 pounds and were 2.5 to 5.5 years old. The field-dressed carcass weight included the head and hide, but the legs were removed at the knees and hocks, and all contents of the abdominal and thoracic cavities including the entire gullet and windpipe were removed.

The boneless lean yield averaged 50 percent of the field-dressed weight. When one locker plant processed hunter-harvested elk carcasses, the yield averaged 43 percent. Yields for the elk described in this bulletin were higher because the carcasses were kept clean, most of the elk were shot in the ribs, and all edible lean from every cut was included in the boneless meat yield. When elk are shot in the shoulders or hind legs, when more trim is discarded because of fly strike or dirt on cuts like the ribs and flanks, and when most of the fat from excessively fat, barren cows is trimmed, the lean yields are lower. These factors help explain why locker-plant figures are often lower than the 50 percent boneless lean obtained in this study.

The six bull elk studied had an average field-dressed weight of437 pounds. They ranged in age (determined by the wear of mandibular cheek teeth) from 1.5 to 9.5 years with four bulls being 2.5 or 3.5 years old. The six cows averaged 339 pounds and were 2.5 to 5.5 years old. The field-dressed carcass weight included the head and hide, but the legs were removed at the knees and hocks, and all contents of the abdominal and thoracic cavities including the entire gullet and windpipe were removed.

The boneless lean yield averaged 50 percent of the field-dressed weight. When one locker plant processed hunter-harvested elk carcasses, the yield averaged 43 percent. Yields for the elk described in this bulletin were higher because the carcasses were kept clean, most of the elk were shot in the ribs, and all edible lean from every cut was included in the boneless meat yield. When elk are shot in the shoulders or hind legs, when more trim is discarded because of fly strike or dirt on cuts like the ribs and flanks, and when most of the fat from excessively fat, barren cows is trimmed, the lean yields are lower. These factors help explain why locker-plant figures are often lower than the 50 percent boneless lean obtained in this study.







1) According to a mail-in survey by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, the proportion of bulls including spikes, cows, and calves harvested in Wyoming in 2001 was 48.1, 43.7, and 8.2 percent, respectively.

2) From Hay, et al. (1961)

3) The field-dressed weight times 50 percent is equal to the weight of boneless meat. Because field-dressed weights often vary within age class, boneless meat yield can also vary as much as 20 pounds from the averages listed.

4) The percentage of calves and 1 ½ and 2 ½-year-old hunter-harvested animals from 115 hunt areas throughout Wyoming in 2001 is based on the age structure of 4,185 field-checked animals. Wyoming Game and Fish laboratory tooth-ring data from hunter-harvested animals 3 ½ years and older were used to calculate the percentage in each age class over 2 ½ years because accurate ages for older animals are difficult to determine at check stations.

I was only a little disappointed when I got all the way to the end in their section on meat care. There they kept a backwoods legend that it is appropriate to "Stick or cut the throat" of a dead animal to "bleed it out". A dead animal is not going to pump blood out of its jugular or carotid artery with the heart not pumping. So while it may bleed a little, the damage from the shot already bled it out. This is a holdover from when people whacked a pig on the head to stun it and then hung it and "stuck"it to bleed it to death. That and saying you need to add fat to nice healthy lean meat. Adding beef or pork fat seems to defeat the purpose of lean meat, and the fats are what carry the load of artificial hormones I am trying to avoid.

It is worth looking at the whole article.

Wow! Great info! Thanks again.

Maybe this is a good time to resurface this photo discussion Angus and I had last year. Some of his photos are not showing, but scroll down some.

Might answer DALLDER's question on Bull Elk depth of chest.

Thanks Jag, this is interesting information. So far looks like 28 to 32 inches is average answer to my question.

Great post folks! You guys did some incredible research, appreciate the effort greatly.
Jeff

Good stuff! Thank you, gentlemen!

Too bad all of Angus' photos are not still available, but Photo 1 shows pretty well how far forward the rumen and stomach are in the chest cavity. It comes up in the lower part of the chest cavity about as far as the fifth rib from the rear.

Jag

Ok, the chart has some fantastic information but for this newbie it raises another question. In Montana, a legal bull must have 4 inch eye guards, my question is how old will he be?? Thanks Daniel

usually a 2 year old. most yearlins are spikers, few with browtines

The typical spike is a long yearling, born in May-June, often around Memorial Day around here. So by October is about 1 year 5 months. They seldom have brow tines, and almost never have long brow tines. Now and then you see a weird one. Raghorns are typically at least 2.4 years old, and sometimes don't look like much even in their 3rd year. It can be pretty individual. I have seen a few yearlings with attempts at branches. But for body size spikes are smaller than mature cows, younger raghorns may still be smaller than older cows. Once you get to mature bulls, they are bigger.

The typical spike is a long yearling, born in May-June, often around Memorial Day around here. So by October is about 1 year 5 months. They seldom have brow tines, and almost never have long brow tines. Now and then you see a weird one. Raghorns are typically at least 2.4 years old, and sometimes don't look like much even in their 3rd year. But they will have brow tines and branches. It can be pretty individual. I have seen a few yearlings with attempts at branches. But for body size spikes are smaller than mature cows, younger raghorns may still be smaller than older cows. Once you get to mature bulls, they are bigger.

Glad to see this thread back up. I can send some one the original photos! And if I get around a fresh one on flat ground I will do a post mortum photo dissection of the thoracic and abdominal cavity.

I dunno how that last ended up as a double post, but oh well..

Angus, that would be great if you could get post mortum photos. I'll see If I can't get something on the ground myself to measure. Plan to spend next week after elk. Check for PM .

Jag

Great thread. What I got out of it - aim at the top of the leg. Interesting that I would have typically aimed tight behind the leg.

Thank you for the kind words!

Just remember if one wants to choose to move the point of aim foreword into the chest , bullet penetration and sturdiness...I.e. less frangebile action is important. It is just an anatomical observation that the front leg on elk is further back on the rib column, the spinous processes of the vertebrae are quite tall, the " mane " or darker neck hair on the elks neck is quite robust, and they got one hell of a rumen capacity all factors that compress the classical American " meat saver" shot behind the front leg not as forgiving as compared to shooting at whitetail deer.

I will try to get more anatomy photos as it presents itself. Once agin thanks for the encouragement and good luck hunting!

Damn fine work. Thank you.

Very informative gentlemen. Thank you. I have actually learned something of value that I will use in the field.

These are some of Angus' original photos. Angus, the files were tiny, so I did what I could to improve and sharpen them. The ones you were able to forward, I think did not include the one with a measuring tape.

Angus' narrative that went with his photos was:

"...It is of a frozen cow lie in sternal. Left side of animal. The skeleton from first rib to end of pelvis is 53 inches. The ribs I count 13 of em is 29 inches. At rib seven is the start of the rumen ingesta. This ball of frozen rumen contents is 12 inches wide and 17 inches long. I believe a live animal would be larger. It lays along the [right] left (I flipped the photo for consistency with other illustrations - Jag) rib cage starting at rib seven going back towards the tail. The metal ring in the photos is seven inches in diameter. The spinous process of the spine are 8 inches before the scapula and 5 inches behind it. The depth of the lung field is a maximum of 16 inches. This deepest part is where the scapula us positioned. It is my belief a elk lying down will have the scapula shifted foreword. The area behind a standing animal where there is lung are would be slightly less than the 8 inches shown in the photo. As you can see neck of the scapula is about dead center of the lung field. With 9 inches in front and 9 inches behind."

I got my Montana elk in the flat of a bowl. I did not have a camera until I came back to pack it out So it is not of a complete necropsy but does illustrate some more anatomical landmarks.. So I will email you some photos when I get to decent wi if reception. Thanks d John