yet we chase platforms, cartridges, and velocities til the cows come home...

lol

I'm remnded of a guy sitting at home taking it easy but being bothered by a fly.....and instead of dispatching it with a fly swatter, he calls in a barrage of 16" shells from the USS Wisconsin

Wowsers....a read fly, and gets to the campfire to tout the awesomeness of the Naval assault.....

Are you guys snow bound?

Yep! memtb

I thought about this a good deal in the past few weeks. I decided that 3250 fps matters more than 2700 fps...

V means a lot to me...lol

Velocity is nice, but anything over 3000 is probably wasted, the bullet and accuracy to me are most important.

I've killed more bull moose with a .308 Winchester shooting high-quality bullets than most folks have ever seen. I've also killed bull moose with 375H&H, 300 WinMag, 30.06, and 7mm STW. Bullet design and placement is everything - velocity is secondary. If you prefer to shoot at long distances instead of hunting and stalking then velocity might gain some importance. But unless I'm hunting brown bear (I've killed two and have participated in the killing of three more) there's NOTHING a well-placed and well-designed 30-caliber bullet at reasonable (.308 Win) velocities won't do perfectly well on anything in North America.

In my older years I've moved away from anything "magnum"

I think a good balance of velocity and bullet makes the most difference to work well at all distances. Test them on animals enough and you will find this balance.

I doubt that, I've seen a LOT of moose.

But your point about the 308 remains spot-on. And further, elk really don't require more than a decent cup and core bullet at "standard" velocities. I've seen more elk killed with the 270/130 combo than any other... and all those were with factory cup-and-core 130's.

Back to the title of this thread, I'd change it to: "bullet placement matters more than bullets or headstamps"...

Disagree Brad, you cant tell me that a 110 grain Varmint bullet from a .300 ultra mag will matter more than a 180 grainer on moose...no matter where it’s placed.

I think they all go hand in hand.

Don’t bother Tom, Brad knows all!!

Placement: Eye ball.

Ok.
I’ll give you that.
Lol

Yeah, but that's just stupid. Hopefully you know that.

It should go without saying (seemingly not on this forum) that the bullet should be appropriate to the game and cartridge... bullets are so good today, any C&C bullet designed for BG will work at average velocities.

My criteria:

1) Placement
2) Placement
3) Placement
4) Bullet
5) Cartridge

But please, do tell your observations killing elk...

I am with John and 08, well hit and well constructed. BUT i have been fortunate to know/known and hunted with five serious elk" hunters" over my life time. Serious as in, hunters who kill elk nearly every year and sometimes in more than one state, All started out with a 30:06, using cup and core bullets, none use either now. . All moved up primarily because of range. In the days of my youth there were no range finders, no turrets, or scopes with built in datum lines. We studied the charts in the back of the loading manuals, went out to a clear cut and stepped off a distance and practiced over the hood of the truck. If we missed an elk (there were few) they were undershot because of underestimating range. All but 2 of these hunters, now shoot .300 or 7 mm magnums, with turret scopes, carry range finders and practice out to 600 yards. The one that doesn't passed away several years ago, another limits his shots to 300 yards. What our sample has found (some where around 200 elk) is that a premium bullet far exceeds the performance of a cup and core bullet from 20 yards out to nearly 600 yards. And that having the extra velocity/energy will in most cases make up for the less than perfect shot. We use Partitions, Accubonds, and Bitteroots, for our hunting. That's my .02 for this day.

Wow Brad your so smart you know everything.
Oh great one.
My argument was against your comment that bullets matter more.....period! That was your comment.
I posted an example where you would be wrong.
I guess I must have touched a nerve, oh well.
How do I go about worshipping your great vast knowledge of everything?
Please tell.

Damn, only you could twist something so simple...

I've killed elk with:

Partitions
Accubonds
Ballistic Tips
Hot Cores
Interlocks
Failsafe's
TSX's
TTSX's

Only problem I've ever had was with the TTSX and Failsafe, both which didn't open, but still got the job done.

Please tell me your experience?

“Please tell me your experience “

I knew that would be your argument.
Only because you can’t/won’t argue my point on bullets mattering more than the others...
I never said those bullets you listed wouldn’t work...I gave an example where your argument would be flat wrong and hurt your big ego.
Get over it and grow up

Conversing with adults one shouldn't have to qualify the obvious... you're apparently the exception. Think on that...

Oh jeez......

I dunno bout all this. My biggest Rosie I killed with a 200 silver tip via 358, biggest rocky, 180 interlock 300 Roy 40 yards, 3300 FPS. Killed a lot with 50 and 54 cal powerbelts, ran arrows through several as well. I think most folks over think stuff. Killed a couple bulls with a 243, it works really well too.

A old buddy of mine, passed away last year, probably had the best blacktail bone collection I’ve seen, killed a bull every year, all outta one of his numerous tree stands with a marlin 22 Mag. In season, just enjoyed using a 22 Mag cause it worked for him, really well actually.....

In other words, bullet placement trumps all.

The game warden one county over used a 220 Swift to dispatch hundreds of elk... slip a bullet in the ribs, life is over.

Like you say, most overthink this stuff, or are just argumentative by nature...

overthinking this stuff... I represent that remark!!

On a given day and subject, so do I!

Chasing "magic bullets"......learning how to shoot well will take care of most of it.

In all of my years guiding back in the day, I saw more elk hit poorly with magnum rifles, shooting fancy hunting bullets, than I ever want to remember. The guys that showed up after practicing all summer with their .270's and 30/06's were the guys that had the least amount of problems killing animals with one shot. I've got some absolute horror stories of hunters showing up with magnum rifles they were scared schittless of, and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with them, let alone an elk.

None of it matters if your not in shape to go get them in the first place. I see it every year, bought this whiz bang rifle - shoots light out to farther than you can see. Noon on first day: feet have blisters, legs so sore they can't get out of a lawn chair and would rather sleep in the second day than go after them again. There's a reason success rates are what they are..... For the guys that don't fall into that trap about anything from a .243 up works just fine. I've killed bulls with Partitions, Interlocks, SST's, CoreLokts and arrows - all resulted in dead elk. The only bullets I would not use again are the SST's.

Buy a 30/06

That reminds me of a talk I had when bear hunting one time. He was moving to Alaska with his dad from northern Minnesota. He said his dad shot a grizzly last year. I asked sarcastically , with what , a 375 Nitro super short mag? I started laughing. He said " nah, just a 308Win. I laughed even more. He admitted , it wasn't very big, maybe 300 lbs.

I agree with all you guys. I learned after being somewhat coerced to hunt with Remington Express commercial ammo in my 280 Remington for 4-5 hunting seasons. So many critters fell to those 150 gr CoreLokt bullets at 2820 fps average that I was forced to rethink my self-imposed “need” for magnum velocities. That included many large, heavy Axis out to 400 yards.

Prior to this learning experience I was a slave to, what I thought, the fastest speed & the utmost premium bullet.

Interested to hear how that 180 IL at 40 yards did from a 300 Roy. Was it a plain SP or BTSP? Pass through or catch the bullet and did it go through any bones?

Caught both. Both shoulders, 1st hunped him, second tipped him. I’ve killed enough to know, I don’t want anything runnin unless it’s flat clear ground, hunt Washington you’ll see.... love hornady bullets.


Spire point btw...

Impressive. Thanks Jud.

My oryx was 338 win, 225, raking shot, 425 yards, 1 and done, never recovered it. Behind the ribs, exited between shoulder and brisket off side...

You bet glad to share with a fellow killer...

And for conversation, my best bud and pard for 25 years, 270 Roy, 130 hornady sp, 300 yards, 1 hitter quitter...... out of over 100 Roosevelt and rocky bulls never seen one bigger, meat wise.... good bull for a great guy....

This is true, exactly why I rested with 3050 fps with 165’s from my 300 WSM. Glorified 30-06? May be, but I like it.

You boys from back east that wanna hunt elk, get in shape, get a good load you can shot well, and go hunt!!! Work your ass off, shoot good when the opportunity presents itself, and enjoy elk meat for the next year!! Caliber and bullet are the last thing you should think of. Get the tag, get your azz in reasonable shape, shoot your deer rifle in the summer, kill elk, it’s really that easy.....

Is this an invitation?

Shhhhhh .... grin

I’ve ate a bit of elk steak in one of the harder states to kill elk once or twice...

Making a clean accurate shot with the first squeeze matters more than what you’re rock’n with in the woods. If you jerk and flitch the big magnums then set it aside...Nobody will call you a pussy if you’re making clean hits with a lower recoil rifle. Dead is dead and high-5’s and fist bumps are passed around...

You have a wounding issue because you wanna swag a magnum that scares your soul. Then, party members get a little perturbed having to track an animal down into steep canyons and heavy cover with a bonus, if found, at the end, dealing with a gut shot elk.

But, don’t hate on those who shoot the magnums often and well. Coastal country can be big, steep and treacherous. 300 RUM can be a friend.😎

I don't know how tall that fella is,but that bull is THICK! My brother in law shot one in Colorado in 2013,that was such an animal. Of the 3 bulls in camp that season,it was enormous. Dwarfed the other 2 by a wide margin. Doubt it would have winterd over either. The teeth were all but gone. His horns were chit too. One 160 grain Partition via 7 Rem mag. Slightly going away,didn't exit. I was on the mountain when they processed it,or I'd hunted for the bullet a bit. Don't think anyone has it. Our crew has taken 7 bulls out of that same camp in 3 trips. All were shot with the 7 Rem mag. Just coincidence. Bullets from 175 grain factory fodder,to 160 grain hand loads. None traveled more than a few yards. All were hit in the goodies. We have a shoot till he's down mind set in our camp. I think the most shots into one bull was 3. All weren't necessary,but we've never lost a bull,knock on wood.

One could say from the data gathered in our camp,the 7 Rem mag is the perfect elk rifle. Any of those bulls could have just as easily been dispatched with an 06 based round. I will say this. After seeing how thick and densely muscled a truly big old bull is, Ill lean to the Interlock, Partition, bonded or TTSX bullets. In what ever case they are fired from.

Agreed. If we include an elk tag in our applications this year,Ill be carrying my 280AI,or the Kimber 30/06 Just because it's lighter. The AI piles 140 TTSXs into Little bitty groups. It's one of those rigs that just seems to shoot its self. The 06 will be stoked with 180 Partitions. Nice sweet spot at 57 grains of H4350 in a Norma case. Nuttin fancy. We hunt as hard as our body permits. Like you say,we worry more about being in shape than what's in the gun case. Good boots,good bullets and a good body. The hunting God's take it from there.

JMan, when are you gonna learn to stop posting pics of synthetic stocks and Leupold scopes...They don’t shoot properly...NW boys are just dumb! Nice older bull. I got one of them too. 22 hours getting his fat A$$ and horns outta deep reprod.

Please inform us uninformed where a rimfire .22 is legal for elk? Certainly not in WA. Inquiring minds want to know. Happy Trails

I think you are pretty well spot on, but placement only takes one space. After that if the bullet works the cartridge matters not at all IMHO. Assuming its enough steam to open and push through the vitals and hopefully exit.

Though I think so many these days need an exit, I prefer that too, but so many deer hunters are shooting mini bombs and expecting deer to fall over so they don't have to get out and look for them, that they have no skills in tracking after the shot... but I digress.

I did mention us NW boys are dumb...It gets past down from the older generation. Better this, than say, marrying your sister..Wink, giggle, smiling...Joke boys from the Deep South...Stand down. 😊

Centershot......why do you not like the SST bullet?

I have a similar perception of the SST.....but have had most excellent results with the FTX line in the 300 savage.

I have a hard time believing there is much difference if any between the SST and the FTX. Must be all in my head.

The only rifle I hunted with for many years was this old Sako .220 swift. On this day I was out calling coyotes, and bumped into this small six point. I waited for him to stand up out of his bed, and killed him with one shot through the lungs at 150 yards, from that black hill behind my left shoulder. It's legal to use .22 centerfires here in Montana.

How many barrels have you burned in your Sako Swift over the years?

It's wearing number eight, and needs a new one. I'm kicking around the idea of having it re-barreled to a 22 Creedmoor. Alpha is making brass head stamped for it now..

I was figuring 5-6 barrels. The older pic of you with the swift and it was already sporting a replaced tube. You love your S&B scopes? My wife asked if i would like one for Easter...Crazy girl, of course I do.

That old rifle and I go back a ways....

I've been using S&B's about 15 years. I've had good luck with them. Before them, I used fixed power Leupold scopes. I still have a few of those laying around....

15 years on the S&B...I will take that as a positive review. Time to start looking...Nice Bou!

Hey, Scenar, just a thought...Every now and again, maybe post some ugly, scraggly, gnarly looking animal you shot. Let’s people know you’re human 😊

It’s not, probably never was, for deer either. He sure felt comfortable using it, never had a issue with killin or with the law. Funny thing is, it was during season too......

Shep is about 5’8” and 190 lbs, little guy.... grin

Montana.

I wouldn't recommend it, but it is legal.

Here's a medium antlered, old warrior mule deer from the Bitterroot I took with a .204 Ruger and the awesome 45 grain Hornady.


It's about as small as I would go with deer, though I am tempted to whack one via .22 K hornet and 35 VMax this year, due to reports I have heard from others.
I don't think I would try the .17 Rem on deer, though it is a coyote splat'n SOB with the Remington 25 grain HP. There's got to be a limit somewhere, but it sure as hell isn't at the .22 CFs---for me at least. They're incredibly efficient with good bullets.

And failure to always and every time get the latter part is why the headstamp (or bore size) becomes important.

I bought a 17 Rem from a fellow who thought it was the cat's meow for moose with factory ammo. Placement is the trump card over all else.

Judman, that is an outstanding Rosie, I have hunted them and killed a few but have never seen one like that. He is outstanding.

I shot a large mule deer buck way back in the day, with a 22-50 with 55 grain PSP's he let me put two in his near shoulder and then walked off a couple of miles. If he had not been out in the desert I would have lost him, for sure. I was able to sight trail him most of the way. I lots say you can kill deer with them, you can but other cartridges are far better.

The small calibers are great, when every thing works perfectly, when it doesn't they are not so great. Mass and horse power may get the job done,

Do you just like to start chit? Why would you even bring up 110 varmint bullets from a ultra mag on moose?

I have also heard the stories about clients and others unable to mange the recoil of some of the magnum calibers. In fact I have helped a couple of hunters retrieve animals, that they didn't even know they killed, primarily because their eyes were closed. And the 06 is an excellent choice. My first dozen elk were killed with the an 06. I still have it after 60 years, its now a 35 Whelen that I have hunted western Washington with, a few times. However in my 60 plus years in the woods, hunting primarily elk, and mule deer in the early years, the most caliber failures were with center fire 22 calibers, and .243. At least two un-recovered deer with the 22 caliber, and 5 elk with the .243. I have lost one and that was last fall, 120 yards standing facing me, slightly down hill, hit with a 160 grain AB, at 3100 or so out of a 7 mm Mashburn. He was DRT, snow plowed 30 yards into the timber and never found or saw again. He had 40 or so friends with him and my best assumption is that I hit him just high enough to miss the heart and travel back through him. The bullet did not exit, . I looked for over 2 hours and not a drop of blood or sign anywhere.

Montana..."There are no rifle or handgun caliber limitation..."

Well said Elkmen.

So, are you recommending something bigger than a 7 Mashburn and 160 accubond, or not shooting them while they're facing you for a Dead Right There/never see them again effect?

All the perfect shooters like to make their case for the perfect shot. When that shot isn’t perfect, the larger calibers and the damage they do will have an advantage to the smaller calibers, that is undeniable. The preponderance of shooting big game with small bullets never ends on this site. Hopefully people will eliminate all the possibilities for failure and hunt with the best cartridge they can effectively use.

That ain't gonna eliminate all possibilities, which is the point....

Well said both of the above posters!

I personally feel that elk are very fit and extremely stoic and herd bound. Especially when hunting greenfield depredation hunts where they DO NOT feel safe even before engaging.

Placement is king!

Therefore 2 get good placement......triggers, crowns, scope mounts, scope rings, good scopes, accurate range estimation, practice practice practice and GETTING A GOOD REST trumps bullet or headstamp. Just braying.

Inman
So, are you recommending something bigger than a 7 Mashburn and 160 accubond, or not shooting them while they're facing you for a Dead Right There/never see them again effect?

Nope,sillyone, I was merely pointing out that even with cartridge packing more than enough horsepower things can go wrong, I am sure that most here figured that out. By the way i was prone, one the bi pod, and in no hurry, but [bleep] happens. Why take the chance by using a very light caliber when things can go wrong using more than enough gun.

We all make mistakes, that's a fact, and I've made more than my share. The point is to learn from those mistakes.The lesson found in your story shouldn't be "things can go wrong using more than enough gun." The lesson is placement. A frontal chest shot on a bull is not one I'd take. In your scenario, if the bull wouldn't turn (given time they'll usually give a better shot) I'd have shot it in the throat where there's all sorts of accessible stuff (carotid artery, spine).

have perused the 24hourcampfire for years and i appreciate the lessons learned from you guys. My takeaway for hunters is this:
1. know your personal limitations and optimize the bullet diameter, weight, and performance for the game you seek and the shots you are willing to take.
2. use as much gun as you can shoot well given 1.
3. blood trails are good things to have
4. things will go wrong. plan for stuff going wrong, and plan accordingly

They have blown up on everything I have ever shot with them. Shot a beded mule deer buck at about 60 yards with a 150gr SST - acted like a varmint bullet. Shot a broadside mule deer buck at about 75 yards with a 180gr SST and did not get an exit!. Shot a broadside 5 point bull at 180 yards - bullet hit behind the shoulder and ended up (pieces anyway) in his spine. Same shots with Interlocks or Partitions result in 2 holes right across from each other. This is with a 30-06, not some super high velocity round. Too bad because they shoot excellent out of my rifle.

My point was that I do not believe it is about placement ONLY
I stated that placement plus bullets go hand in hand, not just placement only, my case I used was eccentric I agree but it proves that you have to have both not just one.
I do agree though placement is key and extremely important but not without property suited bullets.
I think Brad and I agree more on this subject than he thinks but his response was pretty much pussyage.

Gotcha.

I'm not a huge fan of frontal shots, for what sounds like the same reason you are.

I do like


Frontal nudity

Just braying.

I'm more of a Texas Heart Shot kind of guy, myself.

Well that is a dumb (non) rule to allow rimfires for big game considering all the othe other nitpicking rules by FWP. Happy Trails

To T Man
[b][/b]Like my comrade friends from Germany would say......


GeNow!


Translation.....

Exactly!

I realize that waiting might have presented me with a better shot but I have made that same shot numerous times, usually with a 300 WM. I was holding right on the point of his right front shoulder. I can consistently hit a quarter at that range, and farther. Most run a few yards and are easy recovered, this one was not. I replay the mental video of him nose first snowplowing into the timber. I was sure he was going to be laying in the edge of the trees. It was very open in there so I am sure I did not miss finding him, i think he had enough steam left to make it through the other side and down into the next big timbered covered canyon.

Tag.