why are so many guys so worried about thier sellected caliber choice?
a great deal of time and effort and MONEY seems to be spend by guys trying to find the ULTIMATE ELK rifle and very little on aquiring the SKILLS like tracking,correctly reading topo maps,your game ANATOMY,glassing,shooting accurately from field possitions, calling, and locating ELK.
Im quite certain I,(and most guys) can kill ELK with damn near any caliber from a 270 win-378 weatherby,given the correct ammo(having done it in the past)as long as the range/penetration limitations are factored in .
now Im not about to say your caliber choice is meaningless, because some choices have advantages, but I seriously doubt your caliber choice is the one major factor in your success on any ELK hunt,and having a rifle that shoots a few inches flatter in trajectory at 500 yards is all but meaningless on most hunts, its far more important you can hit accurately with your equipment at 200-300 yards than at longer ranges simply because statistically , far more ELK get shot under 300 yards than over 300 yards
grab that 30/06-375 H&H you currently own,and spend more time at the range PRACTICING FROM FIELD POSSITIONS,NOT FROM THE BENCH! youll be far ahead , rather than worrying about your choice

I'm not at all worried about my choice. Every hunting morning I decide where I plan to hunt that day and select a rifle based on conditions I expect to encounter, anything from a long range slammer to an iron sighted snow gun where range might be thirty yards or less. Whatever I select will be loaded with bullets matched to the job
Once I decide I work within the limits of that rifle and my own ability

Most of the guys I know really aren't that worried, they just hunt with the best of what they've got in their racks. The discussion is so heavy HERE because we've got to do something for the other 11 months between elk seasons. It's more fun than writing, "yeah, I took the ol' '06 out to the range again today and darned if last years load doesn't group the same this year--------floating the barrel musta helped too, because the thing is still zeroed. Well, only 8 more months till elk season............"

Trophy bull elk are large impressive animals. A natural tendency is to assume that much larger cartridges are needed to kill such a high stakes trophy. Maybe in that thinking had more merrit when bullet technology wasn't what it is today. Also, gun nuts are always looking for a reason to buy a new toy. Buying a medium bore magnum, probably isn't needed with today's premium bullets, but there are lots of them sitting on the shelves for sale, and convincing yourself that you really need one for elk helps in the justification process. I'd really like a .375H&H, but don't have animals available to hunt with one, so consequently I haven't moved it to the front of my wish list. A 7-08 Ti or MT makes much more sense for my part of the world.

Cause it's too damned hot to do anything else... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ron

Couldn't agree more.

I think it's a reflection of the effectiveness of advertising in todays gun rags. People who frequent these web sites are also buying the gun mags, and all the gun mags have to talk about are new guns.

Ever bought a gun mag issue that in effective said "Not to worry guys, all the old stuff that worked 20, 30 years ago still works today, so no need to buy anything new". There's not much money in selling old news.

I also doubt there's much money writing articles about critical hunting skills to today's predominately urban reader. That would require us to spend more time in the boonies actually improving on those skills. Why do that when we can buy the next whiz bang rifle and scope combo that's guaranteed to "reach out there" and do the job for us?

But the vast majority of big game hunters don't buy the gun rags and they hunt with whatever rifle I suspect was handed down to them by their dads.

I imagine most folks don't get to shoot enough of them to use their own experiences.

For me I worried about it because I grew up on deer. Started elk hunting in my 30's. I've killed lots of deer and only five elk. I supposed I could have read rifle ads but I was much more comfortable asking other hunters.

I went up from a 300 savage to a 308 , to a 30-06 and didn't have much trouble killing the elk. They just didn't show much visible effect until they fell over.

Hunting friends I respected said that a 338 made a much bigger impression. Now that I've put a few bullets in elk with it. I agree.

Then the bearclaws in "06 came out and I'm not sure I need the 338. But I plan on keeping it. It works great.

It is an undeniable truth that the inadequacy of elk rifles is inversely proportionate to your skill as a field marksman.

I could not agree more with the original post. Elk rifle caliber is likely the least important decision you'll make.

Some guys want those big boomers to make up for all the inadequacies mentioned inthe 1st post that most don't have.

I would venture to say that most so called bullets failures are actually poor bullet placement. 2nd, Poor bullet selection for what ever cartridge is being used.

Of course the long range hunters don't need all those other skills. They only have to be able to shoot.

There is a big differnce between hunting and killing. I figure 99% of the time is spent finding and 1% of the time is spent hunting.

Not true for all of us. I can't remember the last gun mag I purchased. I refuse to pay for advertising pretending to be legimate writing. Articles that state, "I shot the Elk........" and go on to give the name and telephone number of the guide service, the fellow who built the rifle, the motel he stayed in and the cafe where the writer had breakfast.

The one's that I get a kick out of are those that denigrate the 300 WSM. Most say that it's almost like a 30-06, therefore is useless. Fact is, it's MUCH closer to a 300 WM than a 30-06 and is about equal to a 300 H&H. So, why doesn't anyone say that the 300 WM is too much like a 30-06 and therefore useless?

Dick

I've wondered the same thing. From reading this forum, you would think that by far the most important part of an elk hunt is figuring out what gun and load to take.

It seems like when I'm actually hunting, the things I spend most time thinking about are getting over that next ridge, how much water to carry, my boots, wondering were the elk have gone, etc. Worrying about that gun I'm carrying is usually pretty low on the list.

Because bang go flop is optimal, but bang go 50 to 100 yards will be exceptable, bang go 1 mile in the wrong direction sucks.

Who said a 30-06 is useless?

Saddlesore said it right as far as I'm concerned. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A bunch of years ago, I lived in southern Colo. and seems as most everybody there that I knew used a .270. Some prefered the old .06 and I for several years stuck with my nice light 6.5x55 Swedish mouser. Now days, we're told by many hunters and gun writers that .458 or so should be the minimum and lots of people buy into that. One gun writer a few years ago said in his article that he had gone elk hunting several times but had never had a chance for a shot. Then he hired a guide from Cody, Wy. and plugged a small bull with a .338. Remember, this is his FIRST elk but he quickly decided that no body should hunt with anything smaller than a .338. Go figger......

I'm in the crowd, "because there's nothing else to do." plus its good to get other opinions every once in a while, the good and bad.

Joseph

I agree that it's too damn hot to do anything else. I shoot my 338 WinMag with a 200gr Barnes and I don't worry.

I didn't word it quite right. I meant that the 300 WSM is accused of being unneeded because we already have the 30-06 and don't need a duplicate. I agree that the '06 is a top level round.

Dick

Complex question.

1) Size is over-considered by most given you can see a ft / lb chart by opening a book vs. seeing someone shoot in the field and hit a 3" patch of hair.
- People tend to weight their advantage by what they can see when the walk out the door, not what they can do with it.

Does size matter, in terms of mass I think it does.

2) A guy may talk about hunting elk 5+ years before he actually goes and does it.
Some of them will buy a big rifle the year before, and not shoot it as well as the 06 he already had if he had just bought it.
- Again, just what you said it's skills, not the tool.

3) Becasue Practical shooting and Experience in the field are hard to obtain, and impossible to measure it's easier to go with anything semi-concrete. Even if in the end they aren't the largest factors at all.

I just started shooting HP, it's an eye opener. Not anything sexy like a new wizbang but it's definitely improving my skills via (more importantly) practice and experience.

Spot

We gotta have something to argue about.

Quote:
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People who frequent these web sites are also buying the gun mags,



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Well said. EXACTLY why I don't buy 'em either.

340mag--You hit the nail right on the head. A large amount of gunners (notice i did not say hunters) are listening to gun magazine writers (who have less time in the woods than the reader) about various calibers for each breed of game. If the HUNTER would spend as much time at the range as he does bullshiting about how big a magum he has he would be a better shot. Also if he would buy a gun that he can handle rather than some big magnum, which he is AFRAID to shoot because of the heafty recoil, he would be a better hunter. Most people buy the big magnum then shoot it 3 times before going on a very expensive hunt and think they can shoot. How WRONG they are. Most of them would be better off shooting a 270 and going to the range 3 times a month all year long and shooting 1000-1500 rounds thru the 270 and become a marksman for hunting instead of walking no-nothing.

I haven't figured out why guys "anguish" over "suitable" elk and moose calibers, myself.

I'd take any rifle from a .30/06 up to a .375 H&H Mag. using Nosler Partitions of adequate weight and stalk within 150 yards or less... preferrably "less".

It isn't that a .30/06 or a .375 H&H wouldn't kill 'em at 300 yards, it's more likely the "average" hunter would "MISS" the animal or not hit where he meant to hit at 300 yards.

If I had a .270 Win. or a .280 Rem., I wouldn't buy another rifle just for elk or moose... but I'd use a bullet that was a tad on the "heavy side" for the caliber... I.E., 150 grain Partition in the .270 or a 160 grain Partition in the .280 Remington.

For the .308 Winchester, I'd use the 165 Partition, for the .30/06, I'd use the 180 grain Partition... and for any caliber above the .30/06, I'd use any weight Partition bullet the caliber comes in.

Jus' my 2�... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

And of course most tell what kind of rifle, ammo ( if handloads, what equip.) what scope ,mounts,rings and once in a while who made the gun case. Surely there is a reason for all this info but I really don't care as I have no plan to scrap all my stuff to replace it with something that probably is not a bit better. If I thought some other equipment was better, the trade would have been made before this new article came out.
Once in a while I buy Handloader or Rifle but only after I preview it at Wall Mart. All articles do not interest me.

Nuff said......

Bigbuck
That "hunter" that you refered to in an earlier post was Bryce Towsley, I believe. If not, Bryce wrote an identical article. To make things even more humerous, he used the high energy ammo in the 333, and even more hilarious, he shot the elk in the neck vertebrae. A 22 Magnum would have worked with that shot placement.
Glad someone else saw the irony in that story.

Royce

Why? Well, because they do so little elk hunting. I live in Montana, have for most of my life. I go elk hunting every year. I plan my life so that I don't work for the 5 week rifle season.

The last two bulls I shot, we won't discuss cows since "serious " elk hunters (ie. those that have never been elk hunting) give little weight to anything that works on mear cows, were shot at under 100 yds. Frankly, a 44 magnum carbine loaded with 300gr LBT cast bullets probably would have handled either situation just fine.

My point? Well after killing or seeing quite a few elk killed by, 243's, 25-06's, 270's, 30-06's, 300WM's, 7x57's, 338WM's, 35 Whelen, 300 WBY's, and probably several other calibers I can't think of at this point. The number one factor in turning an elk into freezer wrap is SHOT PLACEMENT. Secondly, bullet construction and even that relates to shot placement. Take your 30-06 load it up with 200gr Nosler Partitions, don't chronograph the darn load. Guess what? PRACTICE. NO SH*T. PRACTICE. That's the big secret to the rifle end of the equation. Pretty boring. Also, involves work and goes against the American ideal that anything can be overcome if you spend enough money on it, especially, it seems, a lack of practice.

Learning to track, learning the habits of elk and the hunting part of it. Here's an idea that will get howels of condemnation from some quarters: Instead of spending $4K on a one week guided hunt spend $4k on several weeks hunting by yourself. God forbid you might not get anything, except some actual knowledge and experience. But what is more important? A neet rack on the wall, even though you didn't do squat to actually get it (except give someone $$$$); or maybe a cow elk that you killed after 3 weeks of effort?

I know, "Not everybody can do what you do, people have responcibilities etc, blah, blah, blah." Hunting is an expencive (either time, money or both) hobby. What are your priorities? Make up your mind and stop whinning.

See if this rings a bell or something. I'm not trying to bash gun writers; I just wonder why some of them tell us things that just are not right. Not long ago ,and again I do not remember who it was, but someone told us that he did better shooting from a portable bench than he did from a permanet concrete one. Reckon why he said that?

Maybe the mfg. gave him one. huh?

Personally, i believe that of some one is buying a brand new elk rifle, they should choose the largets caliber they can shoot well. here in az, you flat out dont get drawn for elk every year, not even cow tags! if you are going to hunt elk 2-5 years apart, why not shoot the biggest bullet you can handle well? to me, it takes the odds of something going wrong out of the equation. let me ask you all this, if you have a ,270 win. and a 338 win mag both sitting in the rifle case, you are extremly confident with each, can handle them both very well, both are sighted in ready to go with the most accurate huting load you have and both suit the conditions you are hunting who here would take the .270 over the 338? i HIGHLY doubt any one would take the smaller bore and bullet over the much larger one. it just makes sense to take the bigger one because it hits harder and is 'more effective'. personally, my elk gun is a 30-06 and i am condifent in it and all, but i am looking for a larger gun because i want there to be no doubt in my mind ' well, that elk is 150 yards out, 1/4ing away, will the 30-06 drive the bullet into the boiler room?' i want to say, man that elk is perfect! 200 yards away 1/4ing away, this 338 is going to place the bullet behind the last rib, take out the heart, lung and off side shoulder, i feel sorry for that elk'!

Yep, couldn't agree more. Practice, practice, practice with what you're going to hunt with in field conditions. Then, practice some more.

What most people should really worry about is getting in shape and physically fit enough to hunt elk.

If ya poop out 'cause you're outta shape on day 3 in the saddle below the ridge that leads to the basin where Mr. Blondie Butt lives, I don't care what kinda ultra, uber, super duper magnum ya got, someone else (Me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) is goin' home with the meat and ivory. (His rifle sure had some "purty" wood, though.)

Worry less about your caliber, learn to shoot what ya got and worry more about how many minutes you can do on a stair-stepper/elliptical/ treadmill machine.
You'll kill more elk.

First coues, I will be hunting elk this year with a 270, despite the fact that an excellent 300 WSM resides in my gunrack.

Despite your claims, a 270 with Nosler partition bullets penetrates on a quartering shot as well as anything needs to. I have shot two elk, the closest at 225 yds, quartering toward and found the bullet lodged in the opposite hip, breaking the hipbone. You don't need more than that.


A good marksman will be eating tenderloin every year if he shoots a rifle in the 270-30-06 class, and never wonder why he needs more. There are several examples on this message board.

did i ever say that a lesser gun would penetrate less? i said that most would choose the bigger because it has the higher chanves of going deeper and hitting harder. if you carry ur 270 over a 300wsm, sweet good for you. i personally dont understand why that is if both guns shoot well and you are confident in both unless the 270 is your good luck charm or ust your 'always carry' elk rifle. bigger bullet allows for a larger margin of error. were human, we make errors.

That's it right there.Good marksman whom is used to huffin and puffin and shooting at the same time.My dad still gives me guff on having a .300 Win Mag when we both and my Grandfather killed Elk every year with the little .270.I had to add a rifle for the growing kids and the .300 was a buy I could not pass up and that's the only reason I moved up in caliber.

Jayco

sakoluvr,
"Practice, practice, practice with what you're going to hunt with in field conditions. Then, practice some more.

What most people should really worry about is getting in shape and physically fit enough to hunt elk.

If ya poop out 'cause you're outta shape on day 3 in the saddle below the ridge that leads to the basin where Mr. Blondie Butt lives, I don't care what kinda ultra, uber, super duper magnum ya got, someone else (Me ) is goin' home with the meat and ivory. (His rifle sure had some "purty" wood, though.)

Worry less about your caliber, learn to shoot what ya got and worry more about how many minutes you can do on a stair-stepper/elliptical/ treadmill machine.
You'll kill more elk. "
+10..

and I'd add that more time spent learning the country, watching, studying ALL the game and birds there and how that little world operates-interacts to itself and to 'intruders' will be far more beneficial to the successful hunter than agonizing over which bullet to choose..:) jim

heheh funny post really.. Sorta been over and over this sorta thing but hey I like this stuff makes me feel good to say it from time to time...

there is no substitute for good marksmanship. That doesn't mean M.O.P.P. ( minute of pie plate ) spending the first 1/4 of my life in PA there is a strong tradition of hunting camps for whitetail I spend many a time at other camps during my time as a youth and the majority if my time as a young man into adulthood at our camp. It was always funny to me that year after year I'd see the old timers and even some of our new guys break out the same exact box of cartridges that they did the year previous. It amazed me that if at 25 -50 yards they hit a paper plate the said they were good to go.
Over the years I learned to reload and became an accuracy nut, rather overly anal about hitting 1/4 sized targets at 100 yards with factory rifles. As time went on I became fortunate enough to afford custom rifles and accuracy improved from there. However, if I wasn't shooting I was reading, researching and the majority of my time was spent in the mountains around our hunting camp learning all I could about the terrain, animals in our area and their habits. This alone was way more important that the caliber of rifle I selected.
Looking back now remembering my grandfather who always used and never owned anything but.. A lever action Win. 30-30 He reloaded his own cartridges and used open sights nothing else. But he could hit a 50 cent piece at 100 yards with it. I also remember him being with me more often that not as I explored the mountains around camp. We never really spoke much as we explored but now that I think back about how we wondered through the mountains he always had certain areas we'd walk through and certain places we would stop more than others to inspect or explore more. Thinking back it was his way for me to "learn" on my own the things he already knew. he just wanted me to figure it out for me.
My point is nearly any centerfire rifle will effectively kill NA big game. However, without accuracy there are not a lot of rifles that are suited.
Power does not make up for poor excuses or poor preparation.
Prior to guiding the hunters we have we recheck their zero's from a bench. If all is well more often than not I will ask them to shoot from sticks or their backpack. I would say 70% of the time I get this dumbfounded look like "you want me to do what?"
It amazes me that clients spending from $2700-$4400 have not even begun to prepare themselves for actual hunting circumstances. I bet 95% of the clients I have guided couldn't shoot from a kneeling position and hit a pieplate at 100 yards.
I also have found that most have magnumitis. If most of them would dryfire ( unknown to them ) on an empty chamber. They would spook every Elk withing 500 yards of them due to their flinching.
My point is pcik a suitable caliber but take the time to learn it well. Learn is trajectory to 500 yards. Then shoot it in various conditons. Then shoot it from various "real world" hunting situations. Then once you have learned all that. Shoot the rifle once a week or at least once every other week. Then spend all your extra time learning about the species you are hunting and if possible spend as much time as you can in the area you are hunting.
Now comes the "getting in shape thing" I know of no real Good Elk or Muley areas that are flat.. flat like the local track at your local highschool... It is really suprizing to me that most clients are proud that they have been walkting 5 miles every other day. However, they have walked on flat ground. Useless really.
My suggestion is, get in reasonable shape. Then to fine tune your fitness. Load your pack like you would for hunting. Go to your local track. Then start walking around the track. When you get to one side of the bleachers walk to the top of the stands then down... get back on the track and walk to the other side bleachers. Then walk to the top of them and down.. repeat this for 5 miles. Now you're closer to the shape the guide needs you to be in.
If you are going with an outfitter and spending all that money.. why wouldn't you prepare...and prepare correctly.???

Whisper extremely well put. Thank you.

Wyowhisper. Your post brings back memories of my youth and deer camps in PA. In fact it mirrors mine pretty close in the 50's. My fater hunted with a Marlin 38-40, full ocatgon barrel. I can only remember him buying one box of 50 cartridges. I cannot remember him ever sighting it in or checking zero. He would shoot a deer about every year with 1 shot, put the box of cartridges back and pull them out the next year. He is 93 now, and has't hunted for about 15 years. I bet if I go to his gun closet, about 1/2 a box of those same 38-40 cartridges are still there. He also has a 30-30 Model 94 that my mother used. It was purchsaed in the 30's sometime. I bet it hasn't had two boxes of shells shot though it.

i worry a lot about tracking an elk in the rain. so when hunting the cascades i shoot the most powerful cartrage i can quickly and accurately hit one with, then i keep shooting. when hunting open country, with snow or dry conditions, putting a less painful to shoot bullet in the correct place, is what i worry about

Wyo,
Perfectly put.
When I was guiding I had two clients give me their scoped 338WM when the hunt was over. One guy had bought the rifle new and had put maybe a box through it. He had been talked into the need for a long range powerhouse of a rifle for western elk hunting by a combination of gun magazines, gun-shop salesman and a couple of buddies that were magnum fans. He hated the rifle and could bearly hold a 6 inch group at 100 yds. His regular rifle for hunting back home, mid-west I think, was a 243 or 257 Roberts ro maybe 250 Savage, anyway, a very light recoiling rifle. He did get his elk though, at under 100yds in the timber, so much for the long range stuff. The other guy had bought the rifle from a friend or relative as I recall, again he was basically talked into the idea that he needed that type of power. He was a reasonable shot, but I think he wished he'd brought his 270 instead. He wacked his elk at about 250yds as I recall, but it would have been no deader than if he'd used a 270. I sold both rifles after a while as they seemed to have no real advantage over either my 270, for long range deer and antelope or my 35 Whelen for black timber elk. That's my opinion based only on my personal experience and I expect that someone will want to give me grief about it but I've killed a couple dozen elk over the years and seen more shot.

My all time best not ready for this AT ALL hunters were two bowhunters we called Grumpy and Wheezy. Both 3 pack a day smokers and heavy drinkers, and a good 20 to 30 pound over weight, they were about as out of shape as you can possibily get. Early season bow hunting often means walking a lot at elevations from 6K to 9K+. These guys were flat-landers to boot. Neither one could keep up with their guides for even a few hundred yards without stopping and sitting down for a few minutes. They both had to quit smoking cold turkey during the hunt since after day 1 lighting up ment almost passing out! Grumpy got his name from the resultant permant bad mood that accompained the no cigs and Wheezy, I swear I could hear this guy breathing from 50 yds. After a couple of days we just put them in tree stands for the day. They never got a shot but at least they didn't die on us. (This was actually our biggest fear. If they were a bit late for breakfast we always wondered if they were dead in their cots!)

I'm not sure if this statement says more about the condition of the clients or the consideration of the guides.
I seldom find myself below 5K during everyday conditions and camp every chance I get at 9,100 ft, but I'm not in shape to be racing kids across mountain country.
The main thing I wonder about this thread is why so many worry about what the other guys carry.
Hell if a rookie wants to pack a rifle he can't shoot, and puts up his own cash for the experience, why all the fuss.
After all it lets those of us who know better feel even more superior to those lesser mortals, especially those whose money provides a good lifestyle in Gods country for the all knowing elite.

I guess I don't understand this "margin of error" business. An elk's vital area is the size of a trash can lid.

So, if you can't hit a trash can lid at reasonable rifle ranges, I guess you need those "margin of error" cartridges.

Guides well, most are considerate. But they have the responsibility to do all they can to get the client and Elk. Afterall, who gets blamed if they don't? 95% of the time the guide or the outfitter.




Same reason if they miss or better yet wound. 95% of the time the guide did a poor job of calling the elk or stalking. You often hear as the owner of an Outfit. " Your guide should have gotten me closer", or "your guide messed up on his calling and I had to take to far of a shot" or "your guide made me rush my shot and that why I missed." Very rarely do you hear a client say. "wow, my fault, I'm scared of my rifle."

Well, margine of error increases as the client gets tired and or is a flincher. Now your vital area becomes in theory increasing smaller.
I don't care how big of a caliber you have, if you gut shoot the Elk he isn't going down right there, he's on the run.
Funny thing is those big bullets when they miss clean can't kill either. No such thing a vapor trail concussion.

The last two posts seem to make an unexpected statement,
First the guides do all they can to get a client an Elk, and are blamed if they fail to do so.
Second, as the shooter gets tired the margin of error increases.
So if the guides walk the client into the ground until he is to winded to shoot even if he had the ability before, have they done all they can to help?

Sorry to be so contrary on this thread, but I see so many guides seeming to sneer at their clients, and I wonder if they ever think that maybe the poor guys spend most of their life working 14 hours a day in small shops, or spend their life on business trips, living in airports or armpit of the world hotels trying to pull down a couple of hundred thousand a year so they can provide for families and take a hunting trip every five or six years.
Kinda hard to stay in mountain running shape living that way, or even spend time on boards like this becoming informed on what might be the best equipment.
One final comment- The original poster of this thread uses a 340 Mag, one of those big rifles "so many can't shoot". Is his comment a legimate issue or is he really just beating his chest, saying to the world "I'm just a little better than most of you"?

They have to get them to the Elk somehow... I know very few guys that will carry him there.. I know a few that have tried. When it is game tim eit is game time.. Elk don't wait around to be shot at intentionally.



Serioulsy if the guy is "pulling down a couple of hundred thou" and he can't afford to go hunting, I'd say there are serious problems. Maybe that $500 a month finess membership that doesn't get used would be better off being used, or that 6000 sqare foot home to one up the jones' wasn't a good idea cause you have a family of 4 not 10, or that 500SEL that runs ya $1500 a month wasn't really the car you need with a baby on the way...

common seriously a few hundred thou a year and he can't afford a $5000 elk hunt...

And I travel the country every year marketing our guest ranch and outfitting busines. I live in and out of hotels for 3 months.. I still find time to take walks or use the facilities in a hotel. IT isn't that hard.. I had a city job at one time too and travel quite alot. It you are serious about it, you can make it happen and find the time.
I offer my comments to enlighten the person serching for an outfitter about what goes on behind the scenes so maybe this "client" can have a better time and better working relationship with his guide. You have expectations of the hunt and "we" have expectations of you being prepared to hunt.

and to answer you question. Yeah we know what our clients lives are like. We also know $5000 is A LOT of money and wonder why a guy who commits to $5000 wouldn't commit to taking the hunt seriously.

Make anymore sense?

That's a pretty good response. Not sure I agree with all of it, but overall you made some good points.
One more thing on the walking- I'm in pretty good shape for a guy who just turned 65, but I'm built kinda like a fireplug (big body- short legs)
Years ago I had to quit hunting with my son (6'2") legs about six inches longer than mine.
Mind you, I can get almost anywhere at my pace(and I can maintain that pace all day), but I can't match the strides of someone younger who moves like a deer.
He gets his animals- I get mine. We just do it at different speeds

Well, your comments go right to the heart of why I don't guide anymore.
If hunting is too hard, stick to golf.

Slow and steady work much better than hurry and sit and waste time...

There are sure a lot of differnt ways to hunt. sit and wait, spot and stalk, drive around on your AtV, or walk like heck though the mountains. A person should pick an outfitter who best meets his /her needs, if they are going to use one. If a wilderness hunt is your cup of tea, you shouldn't be looking at the Vermijo ranch where you hunt out of lodge with full amentites and drive around in a 4WD. I certainly agree that getting in shape is a prime requirement for anyone about to run arounda t +6000 ft. However, there are hunters out there that can't get in shape due to physcial dissablities. That doesn't mean they should quit hunting. Outfitters can be found to accomadate them or they can do DIY hunts that meets thier needs, as they can find rifles and cartridges to fit thier needs also, no matter what they hunt. Myself , I have physical limitations that prevent me from getting downed elk out of the back country, so if I didn't ride and have my mules, I would have to quit hunting. My crapped up lungs keep me from running up and own mountains anymore, but I can still get out there and move around, slowly, but surely.

I don't hunt elk, but moose in bear country. However, since I only have and use one big game rifle, all I worry about (if any) is on what bullet to use for the season. Sooo, "one-rifle hunters" don't worry too much about caliber, because they know that what they have does the best job on the game they hunt.

Isn't that true? That philosophy works on a good marriage, too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess I'd have to say my family!

I love to hunt elk, but haven't gone since 2002 due to financial and family obligations. I'll be lucky to get out next year.
What's more fun to talk about, our rifles and components or how much I practiced shooting today? I'd rather read about someone's new Sucks .280 AI sitting in a purple metallic McSwirly with a Luepy 2.8X8, shooting 140 TSX's than about how much someone was sweating because he just ran 5 miles.
Just because someone likes to talk about their rigs, doesn't mean they don't do the other things to prepare for the hunt.

So, what's better a .300 Mag or .338 Mag? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"So, what's better a .300 Mag or .338 Mag?"

Id guess the answer varies with the ammo used, the range, its used at, and the skill of the guy opperating the rifle, to a large extent.
but Ive never seen a need to swap from my 340 weatherby/250 grain HORNADY combo, but thats just my personal choice, whats YOURS and have you ever felt under or over gunned?
LIKE Ive stated before, I started with a 30/06, it killed ELK just fine but it didn,t always drop them within a few feet of the impact point , even with good shot placement, while the 340 wby has, had a remarkable 30 year plus record in the field of dropping ELK quickly, but so has my 35 whelen and 338 win, so theres a wide range of usefull calibers

Sorry 340, that was meant to be a joke.

FWIW, I've settled on a .338-06 as my "big gun".

"I've settled on a .338-06 as my "big gun". "

Ive owned (3) 338/06 rifles over the years,two with synthetic stocks and one with a laminated stock) but every time I have one built someone comes along and starts offering me obsene amounts of money for it at a time when Im low on cash, I can,t figure that out,I see ZERO differance in performance from my two 35 whelens in the field results, yet the 35 whelens just don,t seem to inspire greed,and loss of finacial judgement in rich guys souls.....probably why I still own the two 35 whelens.
at one time, finding dirt cheap model 30 remington, or sporterized enfield, 1917 enfield, actions in caliber 30/06 was fairly easy at the gun shows used gun racks and rebarreling was cheaply done


before


the after depends on your wallet and skill, but a fine handling, smooth, feeding rifle can result, and both look good and shoot exceptionaly well, plus they hold 6 cartridges in the magazine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />but you could buy a weatherby brand new for what just the gunsmith labor/work alone would cost today, let alone the parts

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think rifle nuts have to talk about rifles just as heroin addicts have to shoot up. Any of us with a modicum of experience know that most any rifle will do for elk if the guy holding it knows what he is doing. The quest for the "ultimate" elk rifle is just fun to discuss with other gun nuts.
God created campfires and rifles on the same day. Once he had created the campfire he immediately knew there would be a problem if all those fires had guys sitting around them with nothing to talk about.

Lodgepole - You got it exactly.

I don't have any varmint rifles, so all of my rifles from 27-35 caliber are fine for elk, and I can shoot them all.

But if I listen to the informed opinion of enough people on why their choice makes sense to them and sort it out for myself, I'll be confident that (in my mind) I have the best tool for the job at hand. I'm sorry to say that I don't have much interest in being a one-rifle man, no matter how much "prestige" goes along with that form of martyrdom.

Practice-practice, run-run, pay-pay (or don't pay), scout-scout, are surely sage advice but could easily be put in one little sticky topic that never changes, like a FAQ on how to prepare to go hunting.

That would free up space around the campfire for guys that like talking about rifles.

If you think the posters here worry more about their elk rifle's chambering than they do other aspects of the hunt, then I suggest you haven't been around us long enough. The elk hunter's here seem to be anal about EVERYTHING involving the hunt, because after all, elk hunting is a mental disorder......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> There also seems to be a general disdain for gun rags here...................

Baltz made an excellent comment about elk hunting in the Cascades. I started elk hunting in 1998 and the Oregon Cascades are the only place I have ever elk hunted. Cover is tight and animals move from small openings into heavy timber quickly. Putting an animal down as quickly as possible makes sense, and bring up questions about which is a better choice, a 30-06 or 45-70? Maybe a 338 Win or a 416 Rem? I happen to have all four of those rifles and would be happy to use any--though the 416 is a bit heay.

Also, there is a myth out there that a guy who shoots a lot off the bench can't shoot from field positions. Now I try to get in offhand practice but I never seem to get as much as I'd like. What usually happens, based on my time available, my job, and budget; is I am just settling on a load when it's time to leave for the hunt.

That exact thing happened two me months ago. The majority of my shooting time was spent driving my 1K BR rifle. Some time was spent with my 270 WSM, but when the 270 didn't work out I grabbed my "back-up" my 30-06. I loaded up some rounds from a load I found last year and sighted the thing in. All that shooting was at the bench.

My next shots were a pair of well-placed 200 yd shots on a Texas Hog, shooting off a "sitting" bipod I had never shot off before. In fact, I had never shot any game off a bipod before.

Now I do need to practice with that bipod to stretch shots much beyond 250-300 yds with it. However, I have always found a great deal of "skill transfer" between careful bench shooting and field shooting. I have made a clean kill shooting off the back of a stool at 180 yds, and I made a clean kill at 318 yds standing up and leaning the rifle against a pole. I have also made well-placed short range offhand shots. I think time behind the trigger teaches much, from whatever position you are shooting from.

One of these days I'll be caught up enough to practice more from field positions. In the meantime, I'll just keep my shots under 300 yds. That really isn't much of a handicap though...............

Excellent post Blaine!

What just kills me is the hogwash I have read by "experts" who actually specify the minimum velocity, energy level, bullet weight, etc, etc, that is adequate for killing elk.
The guys who write that stuff should be writing comedy skits for Saturday Night Live. I laugh my ass off at it.

Blain, good post. I agree that shooting from a bench can be ok. It does allow one to become familiar with how well a rifle groups, what its trajectory is and the effects of wind on point of impact. Some years ago i was envolved in silhouette shooting,center fire rifles. I learned that if I wanted to be a competitor, I had to practice off hand, the way the game is shot. Nothing else helped much. I suspect that if one wants to be a good field shot then practice from field positions is necessary.

While elk is'nt on my agenda I have to agree that practice with your chosen weapon goes a long way toward backstraps. I've been hunting ground hogs with my deer rifles and the loads I will be using for deer. I shoot from all kinds of different positions in the field. Really helps come deer season.

Years ago I did a lot of competition shooting in NRA type matches, for DCM, now CMP. I wa snever excellent, but could hold my own. Probably shot AMrksman more often than not. The twice monthly matches kept me tuned up for off hand shooting. AS I did less and less of it, I worried more about findinga suitable rest while hunting rather than practicing field positions. Unless you shoot one heck of a lot of rounds ineach position, you will not get good enough to be 100% proficient with any of them. I conside maybe 50 rounds frmeach position twice a month sufficient, but that could add up to 400 or so rounds a month. Most guys won't shoot that much , nor can they come up with enough free time to vist the rnage that often. If they do, most of the time is not comsumed with concentrated practice, but rather just throwing bulets down range.

I consider even bench time very valuable. It does let you get to know your rifle, and many times in the field you can come cloes to duplicating a good solid rest. It also lets you practice on trigger control, breath control, and sight control.
I do noty do much rifle practice, maye 100 rounds or so. I do shoot about 400 rds of handgun every week. I feel any timeyou do shoot , wht ever it is, only adds to your proficiency, if you do it right.

With the tripods, bipods, shooting sticks available today,there is no reason in any hunter trying to curl up in a tight sitting position or try a 200 yd off hand shot if a tree branch, rock, cut bank, or log is not available. At 10-75 yds though I have no trouble swinging on walking elk or deer and putting it down wioth an offh and shot.

Blaine pretty well nailed it, IMHO.

I don�t worry about my elk rifle and cartridge combination, having hunted them with a Browning B92.44 Mag carbine, Ruger M77 7mm Rem Mag, Ruger M77 MKII .300 Win Mag, Marlin 375 in .375 Winchester, and Marlin 1895SS in .45-70. Some shoot flatter than others but all will do the job as long as I work within their limits. During the year I pay a LOT of attention to load development and have fun doing it. Shortly before elk season I choose the rifles I will use as primary and backup, then I choose what I consider the best bullet and load for each rifle and go hunting.

While I enjoy the gun rags and get a lot of good and/or interesting information out of them, I frequently disagree with the statements made by the writers.

Most of my shooting is from a bench. Some is from �field positions� using impromptu rests and sticks, and some is from sitting and kneeling positions. Freestanding positions are used very little because I don�t use them in the field � I would rather let an animal go than risk wounding and losing it. That means a number of elk have gotten a pass even though I had them in the sights and a finger on the trigger. (It isn�t that I can�t shoot freehand but rather that I choose not to.)

Most of my practice is at 200 yards but a great deal is at 300 with some at 400. I agree with Blaine that there IS a lot of transfer between bench shooting and shooting in the field. The bench is a great place to learn the capabilities of your rifle and load and to practice technique, the field is a great place to put that knowledge and skill to work. While I don�t recommend skipping the practice from field positions, and in fact think such practice is imperative, I�m not one that thinks you need to spend the majority of your time using them. The key is what works � if you are wounding and losing game in the field due to poor placement, that is a sure indication that more time needs to be spent practicing from field positions. And its also a good indicator that you might need to evaluate your shoot/no shoot decisions a little more.

I would say because they are more worried about their ability to put the bullet where it belongs.