I was wondering what makes the 308 cal. such a popular choice? I have considered getting into this area of shooting to have something to do while hunting seasdon is out along with fishing, golf, more fishing and more golf.

The primary reason today is the Palma match that requires it along with a 155 gr bullet. The loads are very hot and the barrels are long to keep the bullets velocity over the speed of sound thru 1000 yds.

.308 dia. 155 gr. HPBT Palma MatchKing .308 155 .233 .450 @ 2600 fps and above
.443 between 2600 and 1800

Firstly because it is a Military chambering. Secondly,it is amazingly well supported in componetry,because of the above. Thirdly,it offers a nice combo of performance down range,relative damage to the pocketbook for fodder and relative barrel life. Fourthly,recoil is essentially dick.

I'm no great fan of the 308,as it pretty much makes me yawn,but it's melding of attributes make it tough to overlook for high volume Precision and dat's why I have a few.

A sound 308,will squarely get you into the game,with minimal fuss..................

As an aside,I don't think the 308's popularity is due to the Palma discipline.........................

The 308 and long range competition shooting ?

Except where the 308 is required it's no longer that popular for long range target shooting. It's problem at 1000 yds is the marginal velocity and at 600 yds the recoil.

It's not a mistake however at all. In fact the common sense of it all is to get a 308 and be able to compete in Palma, other longe range target and even F class. So it's the first one to get because of the Palma rule.

We have a long range team here at the club. Guys who compete at 1000 yds and can take the recoil favor the 300 WSM now while others shoot the 6.5-284. Some shoot the 6m m BR at 600 yds but even a QT .223 will compete there.

A member is building a 260 Rem now for these prone events, sans Palma, with a 1-8 Hart on a 40Xb. He bought a VX3 Leu Target for that rifle. Recoil really matters to target shooters.

Check in at Long Range Target Shooting

"There is a lot of confusion over what the USA Palma rules are. Many poeople ar confusing USA Palma with International Palma. They are not the same.

USA Palma can be fired with any .308 Win. rifle or Service Rifle in .308 or .223. No weight limit in trigger, rifle, or bullet.
International Palma is .308 only with minimum 1.5kg trigger, maximum 6.5kg rifle with sights and hand stop, and less than 156gr bullet.
The rifle does NOT have to be a single shot rifle in either case.

USA Palma is unlimited practice and 15 shots for record at 800yd, 2 sighters and 15 shots for record at 900yd, and 2 sighters and 15 shots for record at 1000yd.
International Palma is 2 converible sighters and 15 shots for record at each range 800yd, 900yd, and 1000yd."

If I might add,

There's tons of data available for reloading accurate ammo, plus confirmed data for drop and wind charts. A good "beginners" round.

Point is/was,that the Palma discipline is not in my opinion,the supreme catalyst for the 308's popularity.

That the Palma Rules mandate a less than optimal projectile,within the required chambering,strikes me as archaeic at best.

The 308 has been well represented since inception,within the accuracy disciplines.

My first 308 wasn't due to Palma influences and I've little doubt I had(have) the monoply,on that train of thought..........................

It's a chambering that will allow the shooter to fire upwards of 5,000 rounds before needing rechambering for competitive matches at 800 to 1000 yards and many more than that for MOA accuracy at shorter ranges (600 yards or so).

There's no end to the supply of loaded ammo or components easily picked up for free (cases) or at reasonable prices.

It's easy to load for and there's always store bought match ammo that's adequate for most shooters.

F T/R class has quite a following and these shooters are mostly 308 Win with some 223 shooters.

It has NO problem getting to 1000 yards with a bullet of decent characteristics (BC .496 or so and about 2600 fps at the muzzle) and has minimal recoil in a match type rifle (fun to shoot).

It's great to learn on, there are tons of shooters familiar with it and you really can't go wrong buying one for beginning competition. (If you shoot F T/R you can shoot the same rifle you hunt with, scope and all!)

Thanks everyone for the info! I looked at a remington 700 vs in the 308 a few days ago and I'm considering buying it. It has a fluted 26" barrrel and I like the way it feels but I know it will need some work.

I am also in the camp that refutes the belief that the Palma match is the main reason for the popularity of the 308 as a long range round, but moreso due to its other atributes , plus the fact that it is a widly used military round.
The vast majority ( actually all except for three!)of the shooters look at my rig at the range and can't believe it when I tell them it's a Palma match rifle and the Palma match is shot out to 900 meters or 1,000 yards.
Cat

I shoot a 308 at long range quite a lot because I just like it. While it won't match the 7mm's for bullet BC, if one is familiar with it's capabilities, he can still shoot good scores. I have always figured, if I can't read the wind, I'll miss with anything. GD

For what it's worth, the 2019 NRA Long Range Sling National Championship was won by a shooter using a Palma rifle, iron sights and a 155 gr .308 bullet, beating all of the any/any rifles.

My daughter 1000yd rifle is a 308 she shoots 185 juggernauts. She set a goal and wants to be a master/high master in LR.

I enjoy shooting long range in the summer, and have fired thousands of rounds of 308 down range, with just about every bullet and powder i could find, that said the 308 is a real clunker, when there are so many other chamberings that are more effective with no more or less recoil, that are no more expensive to load and shoot, their may not be the wide selection of bullets for some but there are plenty in most cases, most people start with a 308, but it doesn't take long to crave a better long range round.

YMMV Rio7

The reason certain long range classes of shooting require a .308 ( or .223 ) is exactly because they are marginal ballistic performers at that distance. It places the burden of success on the shooter and their ability to wind read vs. the latest technology. In my experience, that successfully levels the playing field and mostly eliminates the equipment race / gamesmanship component. They are very accurate, just lots of wind drift.

As other posters have said it is also FUN. Especially with iron sights and a sling.

Between the two which is the better long range cartridge, the 308 or a properly twisted and throated 223/5.56?

That's an interesting question. I have been squadded with a couple of top level shooters who were using .223s. I had a detailed discussion with one of them when we shot in a 1000 yard team match a year ago. He was using a custom reamer he designed, 6.5 twist barrels if I recall correctly and crazy high H4895 powder charges resulting in a one and done case life for the Lapua brass. While his shooting was outstanding, I was left with no burning desire to pursue a long range .223 of my own.

FWIU, the 308. The 5.56 apparently has problems holding vertical at long ranges compared to the 308.

If I wasn't constrained by rules, I'd pick some other cartridge besides those 2.

Your Game your rules, my game my rules I'll play my game my rules, still need to know how to read the wind. Rio7

All good here... Have fun.
Do like the looks of your range.

Thanks MikeS, Rio7

^All this. To explicate on one of Stick's lines, there has historically been a ton of cheap factory match ammo for 308, generally for less than you could load it at home. If you're just getting into the sport will be much easier to learn on a 6.5 creed but you maybe won't appreciate how good you have it.

The .308 Winchester is not popular for long range competition shooting except disciplines that require its use per the rules. Otherwise, you'll rarely see .308 Winchester. PRS? Its mostly 6mm chamberings. Benchrest? 6mm rules the roost. F-Open 7mm cartridges dominate.

PALMA, F-T/R...yeah you get .308 Winchester from the rules.

My battery of 308's have a short freebore chamber where I shoot a 169g sierra boat tail/shank seated right at the shoulder neck neck junction of the Lapua brass, bullet is .003 off the lands. 155g Scenar, just kills deer and hogs like a bolt of lightning hit them. Rem 700's with their barrel set back when new shoot tiny groups, other wise, I prefer Brux and Krieger 4Groove. My brother has had exceptional luck with the 155g Berger VLD hunting on deer and hogs at some distance, but it is not the bullet for me.

If you are going a custom route, consider the 7/08, throat for a 162 eldm OR a 180 ELDM....get ready for the shock of your life on a trajectory table. R#19 with the 162's simply blow your mind at 600 yards. 180g at 2600 is where I am playing now, load development is in progress. As the news gets out on the 7/08 with the 162's, lot of the retarded junk going down the road real fast. With this 162g load hitting real hard and helacious wind bucking, my brother is ready to get rid of a dozen rifles.

There are girls doing porn that weren't born when this thread was started 🤦🏻‍♂️

Hate to say it, off topic!

I see that the NRA long range national championship was just won again by a local shooter using his .308 Palma rifle, 155 grain bullets and iron sights. Beat all of the any cartridge any sight competitors....

The Canadian Cup is for any rifle without the Palma match. That was won with a 798-35. It includes four 20 shot matches at 1000 yards.

The Sierra Trophy is the same aggregate as the Canadian Cup but for Palma Rifles. Oliver shot a 793-37.

Apples to apples the Palma rifle was 5 points behind.

Oliver shot extremely well.

The overall championship that Oliver won includes a Palma match. The last day he was down five going in to that match for the championship. He won it with the Palma score which is everybody shooting 308s.

Just think how well he might have done had he been using the really good higher BC bullets ?
I mean these guys obviously pay no attention to the internet as for where things are today. lol

Guess they need to practice more...

He was down five points and made it up on the Palma match, impressive shooting. a 449 in Palma is tough to shoot.

But my point is that it is very difficult for shooters of equal abilities to win with a 308. Oliver made up five points when shooting against other 308s.

That is why there is a Palma class and also FTR in F-Class.

I know, yanking your chain a little, keep in mind though that the 200-19x 1000 yard national record shot with a Palma rifle has not been beaten by an any/any shooter, and it was shot at Raton.

Oliver has a 200-19X strings in the NRA record book. There is no note showing what rifle, I am assuming a Palma gun. Ken Porter shot a 200-19X also and is in the record book also.

It made me sad to look at the record, I saw Tony Miller's name with a 200-16. He made the Palma team last year and tragically died in a fire at his home soon after.

This is old and may not be current, but in 2018 I believe a 1.068" 5 shot group was shot at 1000 yards. The cartridge was a modified 6BR called a 6mmbraw shooting a 103 grain bullet.

Didn't think my post would generate so much interest. The competition forum is usually so slow.

It was, Oliver competes with Palma rifles only (plus he told me). A Borden or Defiance action, Eliseo R1 stock, molly'd 155 Berger Hybrids and a ton of powder. He shot another 200-19 at one of our practices, but not a registered match. Sorry to hear about your friend. I practice regularly with three team members and they worked very hard to get there.

Pretty sure that cartridge is the 6mm BRA (BR Ackley Improved). I know it has set a lot of records.

There is a cottage industry in 6BR wildcats.

I know of a couple thuty-thutys that are very competitive in both short range BR and 600yard shooting.

Michael Turner shot a 100-200 yard agg of 499-25x for 8th place in the NBRSA Score National shooting his thuty-thuty.

My humble experience doesn't mean much but any of the regional one day PRS matches I've been involved in, the 308 has it's own class. Out of a 100 shooter roster, 10 maybe a dozen shot 308. It's usually the guys with Mil/LEO background. Scores actually ran pretty much on par with the open class that I shot in.

Fast twisted high BC bullets in 6mm chamberings are vastly popular because if there was a better overall trade off they wouldn't be. The serious ones grope for every advantage they can find, the not-so-serious ones are following the herd.

A few outliers bought into the hype and got into it with a factory built 6.5 Creed and factory "match" ammo, but the alleged magical Creed never got them off the bottom of the score sheet that I can recall.

Yep, they have created "tactical class" over the last few years. When one does well in that class it is in spite of the cartridge. the 6mm offers a fraction of the wind deflection and much lower recoil (which means faster and more accurate corrections). A new cartridge cannot turn a bad shooter into a good shooter, but two equally skilled shooters the higher-BC bullet shooter is going to win every single time.

It isn't just a trend, they are better tools for the job.

Truth.

No the one that can read wind will win every time. Also how far are individuals shooting in these PRS matches? If it’s less than 800 then they aren’t shooting LR they are shooting mid-range.

Also in the f class word ie FT-O hardly anyone uses a 6mm. Vast majority use either the 284 or 7 prcw. 6mm are great for not so windy days. Also FT-R majority of shooters using 308’s are shooting bergers 200.20 others still use 185 juggernauts.

Ranges are from 400 something out to 1200 yards. Multiple targets per stage, multiple ranges per stage. Movement within the stage is required. Positional shooting. Prone, barricade, tank trap, tires, truck bed, car roof/hood, from INSIDE a car (driver's seat), rocks, logs, roof top, 3 story tower, conex boxes, concrete structures, etc. I've even shot from a "boat platform" hanging by 4 chains. 10 to 12 shots in a scripted sequence, under a 90 second time limit.

You need to know more than your cartridge to do well.

What’s a normal prs match range??? I know it’s extremely hard for people to find places to shoot 1k yd and beyond. Yeah i know guys driving out to the desert and shooting.. I can see like a regional style match going to over 800 plus yds. Also to run these 6mm out to 1200 I’m going to assume they are using hit indicators.

Plenty of stuff on the YouTube that can educate you about PRS.

79S are you shooting the 3x600 next week? Fishtailing 6 minute wind shifts at BA 1000 yard line this morning.

I rather hear from you since you shoot it. Hell you are shooting from boat platform. In a way I find this odd, a guy who shoots ie you “prs” tells someone to go watch you tube videos about PRS.

I already laid it out for you above. Everything I've experienced in my time shooting the disapline in one day regional matches at six different venues in two mid Atlantic states. What more do you want?

Yeah, some clubs started using hit indicators the last couple years I shot, but the RO's call on the spotting scope was always final. Targets without hit indicators were repainted several times during a match.
A couple venues didn't go past 1000 yards, some others had 1100 and 1200. The match director can set up whatever COF he wants to, and you didn't know what you had until you signed in and got the stages handout.
Out of 100 or 110 shooters on a roster MOST of them only got to shoot that kind of distance on match day. Unless the club held a "practice" day between matches. I never bothered to pay for a practice day because I have out to 1175 on my own range.
You are absolutely right about the wind though, and no matter what you're shooting. If you couldn't figure that out you're pissing up a rope the whole day. You had to see more than one wind direction at a time at some of these places, and, morning wind at the start of the day likely wasn't going be the same wind at 4:00 when the match is wrapping up. A lot of things got shared amongst the shooters, including gear, but wind reads were kept close to the vest.
I don't know what more I can tell you. It's a disapline in it's own class as far as I'm concerned. A good shooter with a 1MOA rifle will do far better than a mediocre shooter with the best rifle. The way the stages are set up it's WAY more about the indian than the arrow. I wish it was around 30 or 40 years ago. Before bone on bone hip joints and tore up knees forced me out. Can't win at that game if you can't move through a stage.

I get into Phoenix early Thursday morning and the 3x600 kicks off at 1130. So not sure I will have time, I will be at Ben Avery Thursday to get my SR inspected by cmp armorers. plan on shooting Friday and Saturdays 800 aggregate then the EIC on Sunday.

Maybe I'll see you sometime Thursday then. I only shoot prone these days. Otherwise I'll look out for you at the awards presentation. Not sure if they are having a dinner like they did at the March Western Games. Weather forecast looks decent enough.

It’s on Saturday, but I have a wedding to attend Saturday evening yay lucky me… lol

Be sure to wear your match tee shirt to the reception 😄

If you take the time to learn to shoot at distance with a .308 you will be in good shape once you move to something more competitive.

The .308s were looking pretty competitive last Friday thru Sunday at our AZ State Palma Championships. At least 7 of the competitors are taking theirs to South South Africa next March representing the US, (or Canada) in the Long Range World Championship which is held every 4 years.

Picture from Sunday of the 900 yard line.

Oliver M is off to a good start in South Africa. Dropped one point at 800 yards

Thanks for the heads up. I was just looking on the web page for results, need to check again. Ben L. should be texting me pictures throughout the matches via Signal.
Go USA!

Found them on their Facebook link. Like the way they listed the wind bracket for 800 meters. 2 moa left to 6ish moa right. Give you a good feel of the conditions vs. scores.

The must be shooting 5V targets. Oliver cleaned the 900 meter. He is first on the US team.

Jerry L is second. He dropped one @ 800 and 900. Finished with 148-14V. I know him, shoots in TX.

Won't see this on a US range.

Retired AMU shooter Brandon Green won the South African Chsmpionship with a 924-93V

Oliver was eighth with a 914-94X.


Up next is the individual world championship and then the Palma matches.

Thanks for posting, good to see two USA shooters in the top 10!

They fired a single 700 meter WLRC individuals match this afternoon. Trudy was 3rd, Brandon 9th. The temps are in the mid 90s.

This is for the World Championship and is current through the first match today.

WRLC Standings

Thanks for sharing this. I'm feeling a bit old and out of touch. Only recognize a handful of names on there; Brandon, Eisenboss and Mudcat. ...maybe a few more but without first names or initials hard to say. Coming to terms with not seeing a Tompkins in a big international match...

Crap!...that's the baby Mudcat!

They are both there.

Cool to see international shooters I've been squadded with on the list.

The Tompkins are still a big presence here as they run our State Championship matches. I think Nancy may be the only one still shooting, saw her shooting in a smallbore metric prone match earlier this month. Sherri Jo calls the line at the big matches, with Mid and Michelle in the stats office.

Top ten start a shoot off at 7:45 central time.
Brandon is fifth going in the shoot off. Amanda was 11th.

https://gbrt.org.uk/tours/palma24/r...9VDdWSrnG5hT_-m85IcVaCKuAnETFd_WTtaQRRmI

Thanks for posting. That was a tight finish!

Brandon dropped four points in two shots, that did him in.

Mudcat posted on the National Match forum that the weather was brutal for the World Championship. Wind was bad enough, but the heat was oppressive.

Brandon is a world class shooter, winning the SA Championship and making the shoot off in the World Championship on your first attempt is impressive.

He certainly deserves the "world class" designation. This is his 3rd time on the US Palma team. He shot at the 2015 and 2019 WLRCs as well.

Now for the team matches!

Did not know Brandon shot the championship before. I did not meet him until around 2018, and was not following Palma closely back then.

Thanks

Some good scores shot in SA today.

Over a dozen cleans shot.

https://gbrt.org.uk/tours/palma24/r...5LGMZBOoVrFhm3X2nmloofs2oyQsiOuxcxtHUxDc

Some great scores for sure. Hopefully the US hasn't dug too deep a hole. Maybe some stiffer winds tomorrow would help.

It’s not the number of good shots you make that wins the match…it’s the bad ones that get away from you 😊

Yep!

On a side note for those not familiar with team shooting, it is a little different. The wind coach makes the wind call, turns the rear sight knobs and tells you when to break the shot. The shooter breaks the shot and calls their shot which is used by the wind coach for the next correction if needed after reviewing the actual hit location, wind and mirage.

I'll always remember the analogy told me by my first 1000 yard team match coach that my job was to swing the bat perfectly centered over home plate. His job was to hit it with the pitch.

Congratulations to the new World Champion Australian team. Team USA shot very well day two taking second place behind Australia only by V Bull count. Final placements:

Australia
Great Britain
South Africa
USA
New Zealand
Canada
Germany

A recap from the Palma Alliance on Facebook.

Curtis Gordon shot perfect scores back to back, never happened before


Congratulations to captain Bob Robert Mead and all of my friends on the US Palma team on a truly remarkable day 2 in the 2024 Palma Match in South Africa. I got up early this morning to watch the match live stream, and was not disappointed. The day 2 score of 3592-464v is amazing; 6 coaches coached 16 shooters through 45 shots each at 700-900 meters (800-1000 yards) and only lost 8 total points. Some highlights include:

- Zero points lost through all 16 shooters at 700 meters today - perfect team score of 1200
- John Friguglietti’s WHOLE squad shooting clean for the WHOLE day
- Curtis Gordon’s perfect 450 for the 2-day agg, a score that had never been fired in the history of the Palma before today
- Several team members firing perfect 225’s today.

Thanks for posting the extra details, that is some great shooting! Back to back 225s by the Curtis / John duo is amazing.

I had forgotten about Erik's page.

Your reading comprehension sucks. Go read again. I'll even say it for you. Two equal shooters, the one with the highest BC bullet will win. Its simple as that, there is less error.

How far do people shoot? Depends on the match. What's it to you?

And hardly anybody uses a .308 Winchester in F-Open. What's your point?

Why do people shoot the 200.20X? The reason I shoot it is because it has the highest BC I can get and stay within the rules of the game. The BC gives it an advantage over the 155s, 168s, 175s, etc. That means less error with wind changes.

Why would you shoot a 308 in F-O when the 308 shooter have FTR which is a specific to the 223/308 shooters??

If that was the case as far as bc goes then everyone shooting 7 prcw would be running 180gr hornady eld-m which has a much higher bc than the preferred 180gr berger. A lot of people gotten their high master shooting 185 juggernauts out of a 308 in FT-R

Except the BC of the Hornady is exaggerated, as Hornady is known to exaggerate bullets, and Hornady bullets aren't nearly as consistent.

I'm not sure what your point here is. You're yelling at clouds.

If you say so while hornady bullets tend to be inconsistent at times the eld-m BC are very accurate. So back to the highest bc wins what about the 183gr smk in the 7 prcw? Has a much higher bc than the favorite 180 bergers? My point is the highest bc is not needed to win, it’s all about the person behind the rifle making the right wind calls.

Let me break it down for you again since you don't seem to be.....gifted.

As my original statement, if two shooters are equal, the one shooting the higher BC bullet will win.

Nobody said or implied somebody that can't read the wind will beat somebody that can. Nobody said an inconsistent bullet will win. Quit inserting BS that nobody said into the statement.

Meanwhile, PEOPLE ARE POINTING BERGERS TO INCREASE BC.

lol if you say so. Go read what you said again. Highest bc wins so I’m going to shoot 183gr SMK’s over the 180 Berger. Pointing or not…

Not only do you suck at reading, you're a contrarian.

No I can read just fine. By your logic Eric cortina needs to switch to a higher bc bullet next year and he will win southwest nationals next year. Along with everyone else that finished behind Jay Christopherson this year.

You're a special kind of stupid. F off.

Meanwhile, anybody want to take a guess as to why Erik and Jay both point their bullets?

Improved BC consistency.

I shot a midrange prone match today. Started out with my service rifle then switched to my Palma Rifle. It was a little windy, should have made a better correction after the sighters. Not too bad for irons at 600, being only the second time I have shot the rifle in many years. I am still shooting the old 2155 Palma bullets. May have to try some of the newfangled Berger 155.5’s.

Good shooting! Today must be mid range day 🙂. Shot day 1 of our State Mid Range Championship today. 300, 500 and 600. In the money at 500 with a 199 and ended in 5th for the day with a 594 in the combined Any, Palma and Service Rifle classes. Sporty winds as the day progressed. Should be about the same tomorrow.

lol uh oh someone is upset.

Wait what?? You mean it doesn’t give you a higher bc? It just improves the bc consistency? We’ll drop point not going to like hearing that.

Uhhhh….you literally said the shooter with the higher BC bullet will win……

Good luck today. 594 with a sling is a good day regardless of the bullet bc.

Thanks Mike. Tricky winds today IMO, but similar for everyone so the leaderboards were static near the top at least. My placement didn't change from Saturday. The two Palma shooters above me were just back from South Africa, so cant beat myself up too badly for finishing 3rd Palma Rifle behind them. 😀

All else being equal, that is certainly true.

Its beyond his comprehension.

lol apparently it’s beyond your comprehension as well. When I mention the using a higher bc bullet like the 183 SMK. You go into a tailspin yelling I don’t have reading comprehension. Let’s not forget you were also the same guy that said “hardly anyone uses a 308 in the open class”

Then why aren’t the 7PRCW shooters using the 190 grain hybrid?

Because all else ain’t equal.

I'll take this discussion in a different discussion...

Congratulations to Team Oz! They have some good shooters down under.

Their TR team has really been shooting up a storm!
Cat

The older I get, the more "Beginners" rounds I come back to.

Mauser