I own three AR’s. A S&W, a DPMS and a Bear Creek Arsenal. They must all suck or all be really good because I can’t tell a bit of difference between them.

What makes a quality AR and a bad AR?

QC, design (thinking things like ambi lowers, Geissele's REBCG, Noveske's double chrome, and piston vs DI kind of design details), and materials are what it boils down to. That's kinda reductionist but that's what it is.

The rifles you listed are low to mid tier IMO. Not pooping on you personally, that just where I see them in the food chain. And BCA really is more mid tier, they've definitely come a long way since they started production.

Years ago I remember Olympic arms we’re total pieces of crap. This is what I read on the Internet so it must be true :-) I know I would local municipality small town maybe six cops bought Olympic arms from a local gun shop and they had nothing but issues with them. I don’t know about these days, I’ve always bought what I would consider higher Quality AR platforms.

For me some of the best stuff is made by JPRifles, some of the junk.......Anderson

Diamond Back seems cheaply made. Saw one at the range the other day.

I had a Sharps rifle Co. Upper in 25-45 sharps, that was a jamming sob., Other hand a used BCAs 50 Beowulf that's been great, I bought a upper in 350 led., But not got to try it yet.

How does Rock River fall in the scheme of thigs?
Thanks,
Rick

Cheapest & most inaccurate POS I've owned (for a very short time) was a 350 Legend upper made by BCA. Friends had similar experiences.

Ghostman,
Any other complaints other than accuracy?

My 300BO 10” BCA shoots damn good and hasn’t given me any trouble at all.

Surely someone can educate us on what the differences are between a $500 AR and a $1500 AR.
I’m sure barrel quality is one things. I’m sure the triggers can be improved. What else? Surely it’s more than ambidextrous safeties, mag releases and charging handles.

I bought a couple of RR uppers several years ago, and they've been fine. It seems reputations turn on a dime when it comes to manufacturers, but I'd buy RR again if I needed/wanted something already put together...or from just about anyone except Diamondback (based on reputation this week) or BCA (also based on reputation this week). In reality I'm really much more inclined to just shop around for the parts from other sources, with particular emphasis on barrels, triggers, and BCGs.

“ Surely someone can educate us on what the differences are between a $500 AR and a $1500 AR.”

There used to be a guy named Pat Rogers who ran classes and one of his classes was usually 1000 rounds in 2 days. He kept notes on what ran trouble free and what didn’t. Things started to stand out and as he would say “we call this a clue”. If you use a gun hard, you’ll know what the difference is.

If you won’t ever put 1000 rounds on the gun in your lifetime, it won’t matter.

Not many $500 guns made it but it didn’t take a $1500 gun either. For starters look at Colt or BCM and see what differences you can see. Do they make your gun better or not so much?

Just buy a Rock River and be done with all the agonizing.

Tell us. Who makes the worst AR? In your opinion... I'm glad, I've never had to worry about such things.. and yes, I do/have shoot/shot the schidt out of mine.. Well, except for the BCM. I don't shoot that one very much..

Dealing with budget AR’s is something I don’t do.

There’s too many brands out there now that are budget oriented and I don’t ever pay attention to them. And one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

I guess we'll let these other guys tell us which ones are the bad ones then..

IMO Quality barrels, custom quality light triggers and a good trued up receiver makes a big difference when it comes to accuracy and account for much of the cost. Based on my experience in building ARs handguards, amb. safeties, extended mag releases, charging handles, stocks etc. are mostly cosmetic or weight and have little influence with accuracy or functional reliability.

My two cents.

The intended use defines what is "good" and what is "bad."

If I was occupying Fallujah or breaching buildings on a SWAT team, I would want something put together as reliable and bombproof as possible. Things like accuracy and weight would probably be secondary concerns to it always going bang when I pulled the trigger, under wartime conditions.

If I was varmint hunting or shooting paper, accuracy would probably be the top concern.

If I had it stowed behind the seat in a pickup and occasionally pulled it out for general purpose rural shooting, portability and compactness might be the top concern.

The intended role establishes parameters for "good" and "bad." Anyone saying this brand of ARs is "bad" is really saying "this brand of ARs does not meet my particular intended use."

I have used Anderson parts, but I was looking at one of their rifles with an A2 upper and the rear sight was all sorts of FUBAR.

I have been buying Aero Precision and Ballistic Advantage barrels for several builds. I'm very satisified with them. I have only bought 3 complete uppers and one complete lower. 2 of the uppers were Armalite from when Mark Westrum owned the company and they have been flawless. I also have an Armalite National Match lower bought with the uppers. It's been flawless as well. The other complete upper is a Del-ton. It's worked as designed as well. I know Del-Ton has had some ups and downs with quality but I bought this several years ago before the QC issues. I run my borescope into the barrel and it appears flawless with no machine marks and no pits in the rifling.

I have never put 1000 rounds through a rifle in a day. The last one I did get good and dirty belonged to Dyncorp before I went to Afghanistan and it was a Bushmaster. The trigger was pretty worn and if I squeezed it to slow it would put out 2 or 3 rounds while on semi auto. God only knows how many bullets that gun fired prior to me using it.

My own personal opinion is Aero makes the best "affordable" AR on the market right now. Aero also owns Ballistic Advantage. You can spend a big amount of money on a Colt, BCM or DD and for a guy like me I could use that money difference on buying ammo. On my builds I buy Tool Craft bolts and bolt carriers.

I bought 2 barrels from Midway USA and they are plagued with machine marks in the barrel and in the rifling. They were Midway's barrels. (AR-Stoner) I have spent some time trying to smooth up those 2 barrels. I can only suggest you avoid the cheap barrels that look like a bargain. Next time I will get the Ballistic Advantage barrels.

If I wanted a factory built rifle other than Aero Precision I would look at Rock River. Their accuracy guarantee seems to be the industry standard and they have been around for a long time. If it were plan to use it and abuse it, it would be a Colt or BCM.

kwg

I have had really good performance from my Spikes Tactical and Colt AR rifles. Lots of rounds down range for many years. Of course I'm not an 'operator' or a 'contractor'. lol

When I was enlisted our M16s were either Colt or FN. The consensus seemed like the FN was a better gun. But the issues that came up with any of the guns tended to be from the abuse that comes with extensive dry firing (bad firing pins) and crappy steel magazines (poor feeding). Worn extractors were another common problem.

With all the M16s and ARs that I’ve experienced, I could never tell a difference between the parts or quality. I’ve never fired a high end AR, so I don’t know what I’m missing, but none of my lower and mid grade ARs have given me poor performance.
The 1000 rounds of ammo in a day might be a good torture test, but that’s what it is, a torture test. I’d be curious to know if anyone shoots that much ammo through their AR or M16/M4 in a day in a combat setting. I can’t imagine that shooting 1000 rounds during a day in real combat would be conducive to a long life.
My experience has been that dirt and carbon buildup are the crux of the AR/M16 design. You have to keep them clean. Maybe the more expensive AR handles grit better? I don’t know. I do know that if I fire 500 rounds in quick succession, starting with a clean gun, things have worked out fine. But if I fire 200 and let it sit over night, all bets are off.

Filthy 14 killed a lot of myths...
https://bravocompanyusa.com/content/Filthy%2014%20bravo_swat_10.pdf

"I bought 2 barrels from Midway USA and they are plagued with machine marks in the barrel and in the rifling. They were Midway's barrels. (AR-Stoner) I have spent some time trying to smooth up those 2 barrels."

Yup....Stoner barrels are made by Bear Creek. Nuff said.

"I can only suggest you avoid the cheap barrels that look like a bargain." Concur 100%

Model 1 sales are some of the worst I have had in hand, Bear Creek Arsenal gives them great competition for the bottom

I don't know why guys here just keep doing that schit. Over and over and over. Buying cheapass schit and expecting it to perform and have an acceptable life cycle. Then they come on here and ask how they can "fix" it. It boggles my mind.

Because folks come on here and say my brand X has been 100%, there's no need to spend real money...

They get through a mag or two and it's the best (and only) AR they've ever had.

As far as a stripped lower how is Anderson inferior to another brand? If it's milled properly what's the difference? I can see different fcg making all sorts of difference, but just the lower receiver I'm not sure. Educate me

I shot that gun a few times. Pat busted a lot of myths about the AR. He kept more detailed records about what worked and what didn’t than anyone I know.
The quality of what you buy is directly related to its intended purpose. If a broken part or malfunction doesn’t effect your health. Buy what you want and have fun. Just understand that hi mileage will test quality.

If the manufacturer is using quality CNC machines with sharp tools and closely following the industry standards to every dimension there should be no excuse for bad lowers and uppers. The problem comes from inattentive or lackadaisical operators, dull tools or allowing some dimensions to wander (tolerance stacking) and not catching it before sending the part onto the next step.

I went cheap on a couple of barrels and it come back to bite me in the a$$ with less accuracy than I expected. Go with companies that have a reputation of producing quality products for many years in a row and avoid the hassles. Anderson for the first several years after their introduction had some tolerance problems as I recall. Maybe they have those issues fixed, I don't know. I learned a lesson about going cheap and I have been much more selective about what I buy since. Buy once and cry once.

So; going back to the OP's original question, can I (or anyone) say which AR's are the worst on the market ? No. I can only say to you what is among the best based on reputation and how long the company has been in business. It appears the companies that do not put out a quality product are probably no longer in business and their name has disappeared from the industry or will soon be out of business if their product is crap. And, they will also disappear from the industry. Just my observations.

kwg

Was into MG shoots between '86 and '12. Early on was given advice to buy only Colt stuff (reread the timeline). Indeed, the only problems I had were related to beat up Orlite feed lips. Those without cracked lips ran as good as USGI no-finish remaining alloy mags.

Not one failure gun related. Unless you consider one extractor hook per 10k steel cased excessive (it isn't). Heck, I had more trouble with my Uzis. Learned about M16 lube requirements......pretty much exactly what Rogers said. Keep it wet and it works. We'd run 1k/day for few days - no cleaning. One of my 11.5s now has about 20k on it. Rifling is about gone first 3-4", but it did 4" for 5 at 100 yds this year with my General Dynamics M855.

At shoots hung out with rental guys who had 1-2 orders of magnitude more rounds on their guns. They stuck with Colt. Finally saw an action spring become too weak. It was shortened far below what spec calls for replacement.

This is not a criticism of those who are competent building their own. But far and away the worst guns/uppers were the builds. 90% of "issues" I saw over those years were with builds. BM, M1S, etc were overrepresented vs Colt with problems. But they were alot better than most of the builds. Poorly indexed/torqued barrels with feed ramps not indexed. Undergassed usually. Rarely overgassed with owners having zero clue about dropped extraction fixes.

Moving forward in time - have no experience with Anderson and Bear Creek. The worst ARs I've run across in recent years have been Sigs. Three different guns purchased by three different friends all failed to run even domestic .223 55s. All three called Sig and were told the "needs break-in" canard. Flame away, but I won't own an AR that won't run 100% on steel. None of the Sigs got sorted out to 100% reliable after 500 rds+ of M855-ish stuff. This was about 10-12 years ago, so possibly they've got this fixed.

Will say Smith and DPMS seem to make decent stuff. No experience with the pricey guns like Baer, DD, BCM, LW, etc.

IME the worst ARs are built by people in their garage who say things like "legos for adults" and "they're all made in the same factory anyway".

Home built ARs have a terrible track record, even compared to poorly built factory guns.

LOL…..well, some of us actually have some appropriate schooling and experience with build, repair, and QC….but I do take your point: most don’t know what they don’t know.

I’ve seen seriously crappy firearms from BCA and Anderson, but I’ve seen bad parts from otherwise good mfgs, also. These days, I’m even more suspect of production ARs.

Is a NIB 1st Gen Smith & Wesson M&P15 a better than average AR15? More desirable than the later “Sport” versions?

I've had good luck with the several Anderson lowers I have used for builds.

The two Anderson’s I had were not anodized inside where the bolt catch goes. Maybe it was a fluke, maybe they don’t care. I won’t use another.

I read through this twice, and it never really answered the main question. Everyone was dazzling the others with their builds, and there's no doubt a lot of experience behind the claims.

Given three categories, what are the ones not to buy, the brands? How about the better choices, too?

1. Low cost entry plinkers

2. Medium priced guns with good reliability and accuracy for the weekend warrior

3. The blood-in-the-eye enthusiast's popguns

The answer is: cheap retail ARs MUST have cheap barrels, uppers, lowers, bolts, and other critical parts, to be so cheap. Their assembly/QC costs also have to be low. I don’t think it’s limited to some make, but a category. There’s a difference between value and cheap. Too often folks want to believe that company ‘X’ has ‘figured out a way’ to make a quality AR for far less than company Y…..or that company Y jacks up their prices due to brand recognition. Sometimes, but not nearly as much as most think. Usually, makers cut corners on quality, and quality costs more $.

tag

Del-ton, budget-friendly or junk?

Well, since I'm still waiting on back surgery, I've had plenty of time to burn into my ammo stash, I'm happy to report my BCA 16" upper has 765 rounds through it. I do keep it clean, and well lubed. 55gr Fmj's are still shooting 2 to 3 inch groups, and 60gr V Max's are still well under sub moa.
My 7.5" pistol is rocking on at 578 rounds by current count, and busting clay pigeons at 50 yards, and doing real well at 100 yards, using iron sights.
Some days my eye just isn't into it at 100, but I'd definitely hit a silo.
For the cheap money I spent, I'm more than happy reverse lead mining.
No issues whatsoever yet.
Oh, and my 20", BCA stainless, fluted, 223 wylde, 1:8 twist heavy barrel, is laying waste to praire dogs with extreme prejudice.
You can laugh, bag, brag, stick things up your azz, or whatever, but I'm sure enjoying what I bought.
Model 1 sales, 24", stainless, fluted bull barrel i bought 20 years ago, ( made by E.R Shaw) is still eating ragged holes, and splattering rats at as far as I care to shoot.
Bushmaster V Match, 1:9 twist, chrome lined, (bought in 98) is chugging right along too.
Life is great, until I go down after the knife, rods, and screws set me back for a bit.

No need for the attacks.

Never a slow day here for somebody thinking they need to attack someone else out of the clear blue. If you need to attack somebody, pick a Democrat. Geebus.

PS- for fair and equal, post a report on the BCA after 10k rds.

They will never see that much use.
1, I don't have enough ammo to run that much through each.
And
2, I won't be going shooting this much in the future, as I'll be fixed, back to work, and doing other things.
No attack, just giving back what was given.

What's an anderson?

Who's attacking who? You have one guy calling another guy out and the other defending himself. You have some fuggers thinking they know everything here, until they get showed up. Happens all the time. What is funny is you have guys hanging off the nutsacks of others, just because they think its the cool thing to do. Be men for fu cks sakes.. Unless you like sucking cock.. Oh, ask blue if his pistol skills have improved any..



Ha ha..

Have you read the thread?

Man 10 shots on target at 40 yards from a concealed draw with your concealed carry pistol under 5 seconds? That’s good shooting…🙄

One guy calling another guy out?

It's got nothing to do with "guy", guy.

My focus is obviously different than some. I'm not all that concerned about my AR's punching a quarter inch hole in a piece of paper at 100 yards. I want my AR's to go bang EVERY FUGKING TIME I squeeze the trigger. That quarter inch hole is secondary to me. So is saving $200 on something that won't go bang when I need it to most. YMMV.

Buy quality hardware and feed them quality ammo. THAT SOLVES 99% OF MY PROBLEMS. Again, YMMV

And strangely enough, I drink Folger's. Not Starbucks.

Hey Wyatt Earp charge your phone it’s at 19%..

Tell that to the Army they are getting brand new M4 from FN and most can barely hold 5-6 moa at 100yds with green tip ammo..

That totally sucks!

And that’s with optics not irons.. the accuracy does improve if the shoot mk262 load in them but that’s not very often.

Contract goes to the lowest bidder, and that meant Colt or FN while I was in.

Can anyone specifically explain or illustrate the differences in parts between high end rifles and let’s say a BCA? Barrels are one thing. But barrels don’t contribute to reliability, do they?
BCA’s are cheap. Let’s see someone wear one out.

The TDP or technical data package is based on 50 years of building a fighting gun. It’s the bare minimum of what the govt requires and what most consider a good starting point.

Things like 7075 aluminum receivers with a hard coat anodizing on it. 4150 barrel steel and chrome lining. Specific sized gas ports for specific ammo. Carpenter 158 steel with a good heat treat, shot peened, HPT tested and then MPI’d bolts. Specific steel on the gas key and specific bolts to hold it on the carrier. Specific 7075 aluminum RE’s threaded a certain way and castle nuts staked into an end plate that is not too hard nor too soft.

These are just a sampling of what is the makings of a decent AR. But companies cut corners and use 6061 rather than 7075, 4140 vs 4150 barrel steel and nitride vs chrome lining. Gas ports opened up to run cheap lower pressured ammo. Cheap extractors and spring kits, different steels for the bolts and nitride over chrome on the inside of the carrier. Softer screws holding the non chrome lined key. Commercial RE’s loctited instead of staked.

I could go on but surely you get the point. Yes there are better barrels and better triggers, Better furniture and better receivers. But the TDP is the place to start if you want a quality gun. If you want to take chances go ahead but understand why the cheap stuff is cheap.

Or not, I really don’t care.

I'm gettin there.

Thanks for writing. That is good info.

+1

You may be right but what are your sources? FN typically makes first rate products. Green tip ammo sucks for precision shooting but if a typical FN manufactured M4 is struggling to hold a 6” pattern at 100 yards something went way sideways. FN along with H&K are gold standards for military grade weapons.

I agree as far as war fighting rifles go. The blueprint/specs to making a functional AR even if out of lower quality materials is well established at this point being one of the most mass produced and tested firearms in world history. For a range or even home defense gun that is kept cleaned and oiled, that is not going through mag dumps or being carried all day in extreme desert or jungle environments, and beat to hell by 18 year olds in a war zone most any will be reliable in my experience. It won’t be as nice or as good but I’d expect it to go bang when pulling the trigger.

The difference between military grade and better Vs a cheapie is stacking the deck in your favor when the rifle has been subjected to heavy use and extreme conditions. Not a semi auto kept cleaned and going from safe to range or to engage a bad guy climbing through a window.

Yeah, BUT, I can say with experience that if you didn’t keep you GI M16 clean and well lubed, it was far from being a reliable weapon. A rifle could go unfired yet could collect dust/sand from the environment in a place like Iraq and if that wasn’t cleaned and maintained, the rifle could easily malfunction.

Has anyone ever heard of an upper receiver failing in some way because it was made from 6061 instead of 7075?

That’s a great question.

I would really like to see a torture test -cheap AR vs. Top of the line

Rost495 had to swage trigger pin holes in 7075 lower, the AMU actually having a tool to do this suggests it wasn’t the first one. I imagine 6061 would fail quicker. KNS pins weren’t created just to be cool.

I’ve seen a Bushmaster RE break at the threads(these are 6061). Never seen a true mil spec 7075 T6 RE break.

Noted; for some folks even a plastic lower would be fine, the M&P 22’s I’ve had took any abuse me and my daughter could give them without issue.

But better materials are better materials, the question was what makes a $1500 AR better than a $500 AR, not can I get by with a cheap AR.

Of course they do. The 3 easiest ways to make a barrel cause malfunctions are 1) put a bad chamber on it due to sloppy chambering or worn reamers, 2) put an over or under sized gas port on it or 3) improperly torque the barrel extension.

What is that?

Uh the greatest pistolero to come out of Nevada..

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...0/re-inspired-by-the-thread#Post17606320

You guys fu cking crying again? I said I'm not a pistol shooter.. You suck though. ha ha.. Glad you are picking up what I'm laying down though. Keep trying...

Yee haw ….. So uh do we call you mr. Earp ?

Just say what the drill was.

I looked at the 40 yard thread and didn’t see anything that fast.

Even when you borrowed your girlfriends carry gun.

Olympic , Vulcan, Hesse, Blackthorn

Get a good barrel, bolt, and trigger. The rest just holds the important bits together. You are never going to wear out a upper or lower, and only 1/4% of people will ever wear out a barrel or bolt. Being an AR brand snob is like wear designer cloths, it doesn't make any sense.

Enjoying the thread anyway..mb

You might not have been around in the Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorn days or you would know some receivers do a better job of holding the important bits together. PWA was another brand that had a lot of issues with pins drilled a little off, enough so that they broke hammers pretty regularly.

I'm not saying names will get you a better gun but sometimes names will give you a better chance.

Designer clothes? That's kind of an odd analogy but I'll take Carhart over the knock offs every time. Guns are not much different.

It’s not SIG. 😁

I forgot about Vulcan, HESSA, and blackthorn.

"Weapons of the Special Forces..."

Why would anyone really care who makes "the worst" AR? There are more than one & anyone who has even a reasonable clue is going to avoid them.

Anyone not knowledgeable of who those are should surely be smart enough to educate themselves before buying one of "the worst" AR's.

YMMV

MM

Yep.

I had the worst luck out of DPMS.

Not that they're still in business now anyway.

But, they really put out some crappy stuff that should have never made it out the door.

I haven't read through the topic, but I'd be surprised if someone didnt' say Olympic Arms in there somewhere. But I've owned several of them and they were always just as good as bushmaster and other decent makers.

It would be difficult to get a bad AR these days, unless you are buying from a smelly hobo.

The point of the OP was to consider what makes an AR a quality product or not. And why wouldn’t I ask that question here on the AR forum? There have been some informative posts here, so it’s been a worthwhile thread for me.

So what have you gleaned from this thread? Did you find out who builds the worst AR, as that was the title of the thread?

In the last decade even the cheaper stuff has been made to spec. You pin together an Anderson and PSA parts, etc . Most of manufactures who couldn't machine a part to spec are long gone. I saw a lot of retarded stuff ten years ago, butnot so much anymore. There is a lot unnecessarily expensive parts out there ... titanium bolts ... cough. Get a good barrel , extension, and trigger if you want to spend $$ on an AR.