Howdy, all-
I am seriously considering getting an AR. I'm not really sure I have any valid reason to acquire one. It'll most likely be used, and in 223 if I do. Other than price, what is stopping me is the question of depending on a 22 cal. for personal defense and such. Sure, I understand that our military have used the AR for many decades, but since these are normally available in full auto, or at least burst, this stopping power is expanded way beyond civilian semi-auto.
As an aging levergunner, I am used to shooting big, hefty cartridges that make large holes in whatever they hit. So, what about the 5.56/223 as a stopping round in a semi-auto? Good, bad, or indifferent?
I'm not looking for a fun gun, or something to get just cuz the guvmint does not want me to have it, I would be depending upon it for real world rural defense.
Enlighten me.

I have leverguns that shoot big, hefty cartridges. I live in a rural area. Not sure what kind of personal defense situation you're thinking of, but for most of what I can visualize for myself I would reach for one of my AR's or even my Mini-14 before I would any of my leverguns.

As far as what you're not looking for: every gun is a fun gun and AR's are a lot of fun (and a lot cheaper per shot to have fun with than a big bore lever gun.) It's always good to get something that someone doesn't want you to have.

The final thing is, it's America's rifle. Everybody should have one. If you have kids and/or grandkids they should know how to use it. When my son was having frequent gun battles in the hills of Afghanistan I took a certain comfort in knowing that he was using a weapon platform he'd been familiar with since before he was licensed to drive a car.

Nothing wrong with lever guns, in fact they are the first assult rifle. Take a 5 gallon metal bucket and fill it with water. Then shoot it with your biggest, baddest lever gun.

Now take another one and do it again with a .223, if you still have doubts, stick with your lever guns. They both work but the difference in how they work will be obvious.

55 grain soft point doesn't over penetrate in a house from lots of tests.. yet you can stick a mag of 69 bthps in the gun and they'll blow through a fridge at 300 M and keep rolling.

You can keep mags full of heavy and hard bullets handy, TSX will work well against glass even, and mags of varmint type bullets around. Mags of tracers if you have the urge....

As to knockdown... you hit em in the right spot and its all over regardless. It may not be the worlds best against "hard" targets that require lots of penetration, but I would never want to be on the receiving end.
I've also killed deer over 500 yards out with the 223 and 75 amax...
Nothing to sneeze at.

As to comments about burst and full auto... thats generally to keep folks heads down on the other side... you'll find far more deaths occur due to somewhat accurate semi auto fire. The only thing I would want full auto for is if multiples were assaulting me ALA combat... and then an AR would not be my choice anyway. You can do TONS of damage in a hurry in semi if the need arises and you are well trained.

Buy yourself a .50 Beowulf , now you have no excuse not to own a AR. PS: I'm a lever gun fan myself but love my AR's

Own a Marlin 1895 45/70 and a Winchester 1886 45/90 push comes to shove I'll grab the CQB.

Thanks, all.
I appreciate the input. Really like that part of it being America's Rifle, now I guess I'll have to scrounge up the cash and get one!

I stayed away from the .223 for a defensive round until a few years ago. But with the heavier bullets now available I have much more confidence in the round. I own nothing but 75 grain ammo for the most part. PRVI and Hornady TAP has much better accuracy in the current crop of 1/9 twist barrels and have more mass for better tactical penetraion.

A friend has killed almost 30 deer, all one shot drops, with Winchester 64 grain PowerPoints. All lung and/shoulder shots and only one bullet didn't pass through..only one deer failed to drop when hit...and that one only made it 30 yards. Hornady also has their tuff 60 grain bullet in their TAP line...should do as well as the PowerPoint.

Bob

Civilian use of heavy TSX or heavy soft point ammo that would violate the Hague Convention IMHO brings the civilian semi auto pretty even with current military ammo on burst. Have seen documentation the "open tip" ammo currently used by the military may not tumble/fragment/cause large permanent wound channel until almost 12 inches into the target, which means it can pencil through a thin target.
I would not want to be hit with a .224 TSX or 75gn Scirocco.

I like my 30-30, but if I have to go to war, I want what I was trained with. Make mine AR in 556.

For the most part, they're using the M855 which is of course 62gr FMJ. Designated marksmen and the like are using 77gr OTM and I've seen nothing but great reviews of it. It does not defeat auto glass and is known for opening up pretty easy, do you have links to your documentation?

This chart was posted by DocGKR on m4carbine.net

Looks pretty good to me but it is not good at defeating barriers.
I've had good results from hunting with it and I'm just trying to stay on top of things, any info would be appreciated.

Tomorrow I take delivery of one of the new PTR35s...basically a H&K 91 in 7.62x39. I had two HK91s back in the 1980s and 90s but sold them during the height of the AWB for almost four times what I had in the guns and accessories. Astounding accuracy...never changed zero in thousands of rounds...not one malfunction.

Always preferred the 7.62x39 round for self-defense, light recoil, fast followup shots, good tactical penetration, excellent one round knock down...but the accuracy of most semis available is what one would call "lacking".

Would love to have a AR platform in 7.62x39 but would like a AK magazine...and there are only two companies I know of that make an AR/AK and both are very "pricey"....

Bob

taking into consideration your valid concerns about the 5.56 for Civilian defense work, I'd recommend getting something a bit more robust.
FAL, M1A, AR10 in 7.62 NATO. Much more effective in a rural setting than the smaller caliber weapon.

Evan an AK in 7.62X39 is probably a better cartridge for what you want it to do.

Ain't the round, its the placement... 77 bthp out to 600M you 'ain't gonna survive my hit. Of course for mid to long range work I'd swap over to one of my bolt guns anyway, that long of a distance you need accuracy rather than firepower.

So is your bolt gun more accurate than your AR's?

I know I said my choice would probably be in 223/556, but just wondering, has anyone had any real experience with the big bore conversions?
Above was mentioned the 50 Beowulf, but what about the 458 SOCOM?
On the surface, seems this might be a round an old levergunner would like.

TWR, I didn't save the document, found it online while researching best bullet choices for M4 type carbine. Gelatin tests supposedly for the military. IIRC the problem was not consistent and was influenced by barrel length and range at impact.

I kinda doubt you will. My own reasoning would center around ammo availability/cost. There is plenty of info here on this forum about the cartridges. Just keep scrolling through the pages.

Mak, lever guns are great I enjoy shooting mine! OTOH WWII was not fought with Winchester 94's. What do YOU think the reason was for that; put your thinking cap on here....

whatever

Nice

my 308 is by a bit

No, WW2 was not fought with 94's, but the Wars of the West were most certainly fought with Henry, and Winchester repeaters. What I mean when I say I'm not sure I can justify an AR is that for decades now, leverguns have proven to me their ability to assume an effective dual role of protection and harvest; that is, good again man and beast.
I guess my question was one of whether or not the AR could/would do the same things. What has me scratching my head over all this that I have read is whether or not the 22 cal is effective against larger, more determined enemies with fangs and claws. Sure, everyone knows someone who used 22 cals to get himself a deer, in my own case with a 22-250, but as a general rule, deer do not invade your campsite and try to turn you into lunch.
So far what I have heard has convinced me they are useful against two legged targets, thus worth the effort to acquire one, but as many here no doubt already know, some wounded critters are more dangerous than before they are hit.
It seems that the 22 cal is more of a specific cartridge-a anti personnel one/ varmint, and it just has too limited of an application for much more.
Thoughts, experiences?

Once again bullet choice.

But depends on what you mean by fangs and such.... Lets say up to bears, 223 is just fine. Move to bears and larger, then I would not be moving up to just the 308 either.... it would jump to 338 plus...

as mentioned you could buy 50 beowulf, 458 socom, 450 bushmaster if it bothered you. I don't hesitate to use my 50 beowulf, and wouldn't hesitate to use it on bear etc....

If you started with a 223... you'd have the reciever already and just have to buy other uppers.... 22lr to 50 bmg....crossbow too from what I hear.... have not seen that one yet but would like to. I'd suspect shotguns(didn't someone mention 410 already) at least single shot shotgun uppers and MZ probably by now??? The list can go on and on....

If you want people to die when you shoot them, get something 30-caliber. AK, M1A, CETME, FAL, Saiga...

The nice thing about an AR, in SHTF, is that there'll likely be plenty of parts available. That being said, I'd want a much more reliable weapon that I wouldn't expect to need parts for(AK, namely).

Just One....

Interesting that since the late 60s all those folks shot with the 5.56 really didn't die? It really doesn't protect our troops?

I used to shoot with a lot of Spec Op troops... it took them a long time to get off the M14 bandwagon but they finally did and to a one, said that if the M16 wasn't doing its job in anyway, it was not a platform fault but an operator fault.

Of course mine and yours are only opinions but I"ll give you this.... with an AK you have 2 chances, hit em with the bullet or the case, either would kill em. I have a NM Poly Tech and shot it at a match at 200 yards once... lets just say I've no use for anything that will barely hold 12 inch aiming black at that distance.

I've got M1A, AK though non of the others, I'd grab the AR every last time, and if I needed more it would be via bolt gun at that point.

Mak, IMHO, if you are wanting this stricktly for rural defensive purposes - in normal situations, then your various leverguns will serve you just fine and there's not much to be gained by getting an AR.

If however, you are wanting to hedge against all possibilities - like a really bad economic colapse that could send groups of opportunistic and desperate miscreants in your direction, then you will certainly be very well served by owning an AR, along with a couple cases of ammo and about 7 mags with a basic carry system for them.

There's nothing like a high capacity autoloader with removable mags to fend off a larger number of attackers. And you don't need maximum penetration for that task, again IMHO.

I will say that for this use, a good AK with the same go-withs will cost you less and serve you just as well unless you live on the prairie and need accuracy at longer distances.

I asked a Ranger I was shooting with at Gunsite what he thought of 5.56. His issue weapon had an 8" barrel. He said "It makes peoples faces explode."

I have complete faith in the M4/AR15 weapons system.

Osok,
I do believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head!
These days, it almost seems like a certain thing that civil unrest is on its way. It is best to as prepared as possible.

First pic is Iraq. I'm not sure on the 2nd pic but it was reported to be Afghanistan when it was posted.

Look close.....they're both the same weapon in two different stock options.

The one thing to remember is if you are using the weapon at home for self defense is you don't have to hump ammo around all day everyday like the military does which was one of the design considerations when they went from the M14 to the M16.

You shoot anyone with either caliber (especially multiple times) and they will die - no doubt about that.

The lever gun did win the west....against other lever guns and bows and arrows. Just something to think about. I always like to think in the worst possible scenario that the person you are up against might be as good or better equipped than you are and might just be as good or a better shot. Don't always think it will be a thug holding a glock sideways and sighting down the side of the gun.

Bottom pic of lever assault rifle.

What you are showing is the SDM. Thats about the only one that carries the M14 these days and he has a special job. Just about like a sniper but not quite. He is the long range protection of the squad. I really wouldn't want to try to do that with an AR either. He has to take on more than simple infantry and at ranges exceeding 600M would be nice. The AR fails on that count.. But I can say that no one would want me shooting irons on an AR at 600 at them. They wouldn't last long. At all. And out to 600 unless its harder targets, we are back to use enough, but no reason to use too much.

I know the difference you talk about civi vs military, last thing I want by my bed is an M14 or anything size of or larger than a 308....