Too me they are now making no sense. With the combo at 22 ounces, eye relief of 2 inches, a 6 MOA or 3MOA magnified dot (EOtech), is this marginal BS? A Leupold VX-6 1-6 IR in an LT-104 is 22 ounces as well and costs about the same. For near and far 10 Feet to 150 yards I am puzzled regards the advantage of the eotech/aimpoint + magnifier utility.

Well, they are kind of like tattoos. Not real pretty, don't serve any good purpose, but make everyone think your tough.

I've never run one but have talked to a couple of guys who like the eo-thingy and magnifier. The one minute dot magnified is still smaller than my 4 minute Aimpoint.

Problem that I see is a red dot is for close and fast shooting not precision medium range. Combining the two with a flip type magnifier works great on the close shots and kind of compromises the further shots.

Take a low powered scope and you kind of compromise on the close shots but are better at further shots. I don't think there is a perfect all around solution, that's why I have both...

I am wondering if the KISS principle would go towards the scope idea, maybe just a fixed power Trijicon. Wingy flappy swivel things have me wondering.

The Marines went with KISS, a fixed power (4-power?) Trijicon, and the Army is playing with the magy/flipy-thingy with their CCOs. The red dots work good for most out to 75-100 meters, the magnifers help to 200-250 meters in situations where you need to reach out a bit further. I'd be interested in what the LE community thinks of the magnifiers.

The only purpose i can see if you use the QD mounts you can dump the magnifier at will and still have the red dot the way it was intended to be used

This is pretty much it I think. I'm running one of the Larue Po-boy magnifiers behind an aimpoint m3 right now. The combo weighs more than a LPV. (not true of a T1 plus magnifier, btw). Beside the bed in the house, the magnifier isn't even on. When I'm out in the field, I throw it on. It covers all of the bases reasonably well, at a weight cost. The magnifier lets me hit the steel targets on my home range out to 450 yards. Without it, I can't really even pick up the ones that are past 200 yards (they're nestled into a sagebrush hillside). I kind of think of it this way -- if you're going to be running an aimpoint regardless because of superiority inside of 50 yards, the po-boy at $170 used is a reasonable cost effective way to boost your range. If your only option is a magnifier that costs more than a decent leupold, then both an aimpoint and a decent leupold in QD mounts makes a lot more sense. Switch between them based on what you're going to be doing.

I dont get them either. The ones I have used didn't really offer any significant advantage. Especially given the price and weight they add to the rifle.

this I think makes sense...a Leupold and a Red Dot in QD mounts.

That's what I used to do, then I just got another gun... it never ends.

I may just try the Eotech, just to try it, I have never had one. The EXPS3-0 has QD mounts that are supposed to come back to within 2MOA or so.

and then I will buy another gun..and another...

and how the heck do they justify the insanity of the pricing? $500+ for a 2X magnifier? No damn wonder folks buy cheap chinese junk.

Of course on the compromise situation, IIRC my front post covers 18 inches at 300 and 36 inches at 600, yet I could consistently shoot sub MOA groups and call individual shots to within an inch or three at distances.

IE a 4 moa dot would only be a long range handicap if you allow it to be in your head IMHO.

My choice? Its generally always been to have irons and a ghost ring in the rear, and if the need for a precise long range shot comes up, a scope in QD mounts... though I"m not sure of what type of targets we are talking here.

And if I felt the need to magnify a dot or reflex, I'd jsut run optics instead.

you know the fear that going to all these tactical websites instills is that unless you have some kind of an optic you are not able to hit anything. Even worse you post a picture of your rifle and people laugh at you! Its happened to me and its killer for your ego you know.


I am an awful shot my hands shake and I don't have the strength anymore because my wife just never buys spinach these days....then the old age thing and your eyes going to hell in a handbasket. However I continue to surprise myself just what I can hit doing everything wrong! Using cheap BUIS, a cheap POS chrome lined barrel, its even a LW pencil barrel, using cheap Federal XM193, and worst of all standing up shooting at 70 yards at stuff! I know I can hit a 4 inch square something that way it seems.

but I still need to get an optic so no one will laugh when I post pictures of my rifle. However thanks to the sane inputs here the magnifier will not ever be on it!

It aint' cocky if you can back it up as they say....

Too much mall ninja crap at times.

It's a good addiction...if there is such a thing. If you buying an EoTech used, check the battery compartment for battery leakage, I've two AA models that I bought used within the last year that had been damaged by batteries. Don't know if it's a trend, but I had to replace a comparment on one of the Eotechs.

Jeff, I wish I could use irons as well as you but I can't. I'm sure you placed your target on top of your FSP and usually shot at known ranges while prone and slung up?

Jeff, I am just lucky and surprise myself sometimes!

the new ones use a transverse CR123.

Sling yes. Not always KD targets, we had fun matches.... as to placement of FSP, sometimes 6, some sub 6, some CM, some Navy etc..... much depended on what I needed to accomplish, vs target size or shape AND sighting conditions.... Of course in the field its another issue, BUT I have no doubt that out to 300 yards or so regardless of conditions a human woudl be a gravy target. Pretty much the same out to 600 too, depending on wind call....

My reason for asking is you can't compare a red dot to a front sight. Sure you could sight in at six but what do you do at different ranges? The dot covers the target and a 4 moa dot turns to a 12 minute dot with a 3 power magnifier. Thats why it's a close and fast sight.

We use Navy hold which is front sight covering the complete aiming black at times. Which isn't much different really, of course 12x6 is 72 inches not 36 inches or so like MY front post width, which is much narrower...than the standard posts.

More or less its all mentally in your head at times, and yeah, I could really probably learn, to use the red dot under the target just like a rounded off post if need be. Again not that accurate but for most SHTF stuff accurate enough.

The magnafiers are for range of 300-500 meters. I have them Issued to me in the army. I have used them on all my combat deployments with a FTS on the magnafier. They are great.

No. If it is a 4 MOA dot unmagnified then it will be a 4 MOA dot magnified as well.


As far as red dots and magnifiers go, there are an awful lot of people offering opinions who don't even understand what they are for.

1x Red dots are for speed. They are primarily used to shoot people. They make shots inside of 200+/- yards or so extremely easy with both eyes open and no need to line up iron sights. They are not dependent on light conditions or eyesight. There is no eye relief or cheek weld issues with them. Put the dot on the target and press the trigger.
They make shooting and hitting fleeting, fast moving targets under stress much easier then with iron sights or magnified optics in the close to medium ranges. Where they fail is in target identification. In the 100+ yard realm it can be difficult to see whether someone is hiding an AK under their shirt without magnification. Also small or partially obscured targets can be difficult without magnification. This where the 1x-?x scopes come in. They offer the magnification to target ID better and some have reticles and/or turrets to better facilitate shooting at longer ranges, however like all scopes they suffer from having to attain the proper head position and eye relief. None are true 1x no matter what the companies tell you. Combine that with the fact that you are looking through a long skinny tube and it means that up close (i.e. measured in feet) they will always be slower then red dots. Most do not have truly daylight usable dots. They are much harder to shoot from awkward or unconventional positions.

Enter 3x and 4x magnifiers. They allow one to run a red dot with all of it's advantages up close and with the flip of the wrist be able to target ID, hit smaller obscured targets, or make hitting targets out to 300-400 yards much easier. For most soldiers, police and civilian protection uses they work wonderfully. They are not scopes and are not supposed to take the place of conventional scopes.

Now that I think about it, you're right the target gets magnified too...

I don't think I will get a magnifier anyway. Just so happens I have a Leup VariX II 2x7 on the way back from Leup and a mount to put it in, so just trade off scope or aimpoint depending on what you are doing.

My recent experience was to buy an Eotech EXPS 3-0 mount it on my rifle and play with it. I absolutely love the reticle, its faster more open and quicker to get on with than the Aimpoint Comp ML3 I have on another rifle, but its heavy and wider than the DD M4V7 upper it was mounted on. Then it has a computer or small printed circuit board in it, one that turns the optic off after 4 or 8 hours depending on which button that you use to turn it on. Then if you turn it on with the normal on button and then toggle to NV mode, it will toggle back to day mode on its own. You have to turn it on in NV mode for it to stay in NV mode. Then it was 11 ounces, and rubber buttons make me think of the gas pump where people press the receipt button or regular all the time and the plastic is worn through. Then it has a metal hat to protect it, why?? So I took it back to the shop I bought it in and they exchanged it for an Aimpoint T-1 in the LRP(?) QD mount that Aimpoint is installing on some of their micro's. I really don't like it as much, but I am keeping it because, its at least half the weight, it does not have buttons, the battery will last 5 years on setting 8, it came with a lens cover, it is not "fat" or bulky sticking out past the rail, it has no computer in it just uses a "stupid" power dial, the windage and elevation adjustments are covered with caps, and it does not use CR123 batteries. It sucks to be practical, you just cannot enjoy life as much.

Smart choice.

Irons really suck at target ID. Thats all taht we had for years, but this recent IE last 30 years or so of combat has changed engagement rules and makes it VERY difficult, IMHO to pick what the ideal weapon and sighting platform would really be.

you would think a 1-4 optic would be a good middle of the road device, then its 1.5 pounds with mount and usually not really 1X, has small FOV and no eyebox to speak of at all, then usually over a thousand dollars.