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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,166
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,166 |
My reason for asking is you can't compare a red dot to a front sight. Sure you could sight in at six but what do you do at different ranges? The dot covers the target and a 4 moa dot turns to a 12 minute dot with a 3 power magnifier. Thats why it's a close and fast sight.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,480
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,480 |
We use Navy hold which is front sight covering the complete aiming black at times. Which isn't much different really, of course 12x6 is 72 inches not 36 inches or so like MY front post width, which is much narrower...than the standard posts.
More or less its all mentally in your head at times, and yeah, I could really probably learn, to use the red dot under the target just like a rounded off post if need be. Again not that accurate but for most SHTF stuff accurate enough.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 51
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 51 |
The magnafiers are for range of 300-500 meters. I have them Issued to me in the army. I have used them on all my combat deployments with a FTS on the magnafier. They are great.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 |
The dot covers the target and a 4 moa dot turns to a 12 minute dot with a 3 power magnifier. No. If it is a 4 MOA dot unmagnified then it will be a 4 MOA dot magnified as well. As far as red dots and magnifiers go, there are an awful lot of people offering opinions who don't even understand what they are for. 1x Red dots are for speed. They are primarily used to shoot people. They make shots inside of 200+/- yards or so extremely easy with both eyes open and no need to line up iron sights. They are not dependent on light conditions or eyesight. There is no eye relief or cheek weld issues with them. Put the dot on the target and press the trigger. They make shooting and hitting fleeting, fast moving targets under stress much easier then with iron sights or magnified optics in the close to medium ranges. Where they fail is in target identification. In the 100+ yard realm it can be difficult to see whether someone is hiding an AK under their shirt without magnification. Also small or partially obscured targets can be difficult without magnification. This where the 1x-?x scopes come in. They offer the magnification to target ID better and some have reticles and/or turrets to better facilitate shooting at longer ranges, however like all scopes they suffer from having to attain the proper head position and eye relief. None are true 1x no matter what the companies tell you. Combine that with the fact that you are looking through a long skinny tube and it means that up close (i.e. measured in feet) they will always be slower then red dots. Most do not have truly daylight usable dots. They are much harder to shoot from awkward or unconventional positions. Enter 3x and 4x magnifiers. They allow one to run a red dot with all of it's advantages up close and with the flip of the wrist be able to target ID, hit smaller obscured targets, or make hitting targets out to 300-400 yards much easier. For most soldiers, police and civilian protection uses they work wonderfully. They are not scopes and are not supposed to take the place of conventional scopes.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,166
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,166 |
The dot covers the target and a 4 moa dot turns to a 12 minute dot with a 3 power magnifier. No. If it is a 4 MOA dot unmagnified then it will be a 4 MOA dot magnified as well. Now that I think about it, you're right the target gets magnified too...
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,308
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,308 |
I don't think I will get a magnifier anyway. Just so happens I have a Leup VariX II 2x7 on the way back from Leup and a mount to put it in, so just trade off scope or aimpoint depending on what you are doing. My recent experience was to buy an Eotech EXPS 3-0 mount it on my rifle and play with it. I absolutely love the reticle, its faster more open and quicker to get on with than the Aimpoint Comp ML3 I have on another rifle, but its heavy and wider than the DD M4V7 upper it was mounted on. Then it has a computer or small printed circuit board in it, one that turns the optic off after 4 or 8 hours depending on which button that you use to turn it on. Then if you turn it on with the normal on button and then toggle to NV mode, it will toggle back to day mode on its own. You have to turn it on in NV mode for it to stay in NV mode. Then it was 11 ounces, and rubber buttons make me think of the gas pump where people press the receipt button or regular all the time and the plastic is worn through. Then it has a metal hat to protect it, why?? So I took it back to the shop I bought it in and they exchanged it for an Aimpoint T-1 in the LRP(?) QD mount that Aimpoint is installing on some of their micro's. I really don't like it as much, but I am keeping it because, its at least half the weight, it does not have buttons, the battery will last 5 years on setting 8, it came with a lens cover, it is not "fat" or bulky sticking out past the rail, it has no computer in it just uses a "stupid" power dial, the windage and elevation adjustments are covered with caps, and it does not use CR123 batteries. It sucks to be practical, you just cannot enjoy life as much. ![[Linked Image]](http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff205/Jimmyp50/April182012import473.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff205/Jimmyp50/DD-T1.jpg)
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,480
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,480 |
The dot covers the target and a 4 moa dot turns to a 12 minute dot with a 3 power magnifier. No. If it is a 4 MOA dot unmagnified then it will be a 4 MOA dot magnified as well. As far as red dots and magnifiers go, there are an awful lot of people offering opinions who don't even understand what they are for. 1x Red dots are for speed. They are primarily used to shoot people. They make shots inside of 200+/- yards or so extremely easy with both eyes open and no need to line up iron sights. They are not dependent on light conditions or eyesight. There is no eye relief or cheek weld issues with them. Put the dot on the target and press the trigger. They make shooting and hitting fleeting, fast moving targets under stress much easier then with iron sights or magnified optics in the close to medium ranges. Where they fail is in target identification. In the 100+ yard realm it can be difficult to see whether someone is hiding an AK under their shirt without magnification. Also small or partially obscured targets can be difficult without magnification. This where the 1x-?x scopes come in. They offer the magnification to target ID better and some have reticles and/or turrets to better facilitate shooting at longer ranges, however like all scopes they suffer from having to attain the proper head position and eye relief. None are true 1x no matter what the companies tell you. Combine that with the fact that you are looking through a long skinny tube and it means that up close (i.e. measured in feet) they will always be slower then red dots. Most do not have truly daylight usable dots. They are much harder to shoot from awkward or unconventional positions. Enter 3x and 4x magnifiers. They allow one to run a red dot with all of it's advantages up close and with the flip of the wrist be able to target ID, hit smaller obscured targets, or make hitting targets out to 300-400 yards much easier. For most soldiers, police and civilian protection uses they work wonderfully. They are not scopes and are not supposed to take the place of conventional scopes. Irons really suck at target ID. Thats all taht we had for years, but this recent IE last 30 years or so of combat has changed engagement rules and makes it VERY difficult, IMHO to pick what the ideal weapon and sighting platform would really be.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,308
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,308 |
you would think a 1-4 optic would be a good middle of the road device, then its 1.5 pounds with mount and usually not really 1X, has small FOV and no eyebox to speak of at all, then usually over a thousand dollars.
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