I am planning n purchasing an AR style rifle in the near future, I currently am saving up money for the purchase. I don't know a whole lot about these weapons except that they are semi auto and are most popular in 5.56/223 cal and that is the caliber I am going with. This will be mostly a plinking and possibly a coyote hunting weapon, ammunition is fairly cheap but is reloading feasable and will I save much.
Their seems to be so many different options as far as recievers, barrels and sights, I will purchase a scope also. I know a fellow who sells at most of the gun shows here in nevada and he always has at least a dozen or so AR rifles for sale, they are all mostly new and unfired. What is the best combination for accuracy and muzzle velocity, I am thinking a 20 inch barrel or no less than an 18 inch barrel, my gun show buddy says he can just about match any barrel with most recievers, any advice or help is appreciated.
There are people on the forum who know a lot more about ARs than I do, but I'll throw in my two cents based on what I do know. The good news is prices on ARs have dropped dramatically in the past year (prices on many plinker models are half or less of what they were in early 2013).
1. Decide what kind of accuracy you want, and then consider how your budget affects the type of accuracy you can get.
One nice thing about the AR platform is it is modular and you can change out parts as you decide you want something different, like a better trigger or a different stock or a completely different upper. So you could start with a plinker for less than $600 (or even less than $500), and then upgrade later if you wanted better accuracy. Alternatively, if you knew you wanted better than "plinker" accuracy from the start, you could pay more up front and get a better barrel (and possibly a better trigger).
You can get a new AR for under $500 if you shop around (probably have to buy the upper and lower separately, but buying the two halves separately isn't a big deal), and you can pretty easily find a complete AR for under $600, but it is probably going to have just "mil-spec" (plinking) accuracy and probably will have a 16" barrel.
However, for $150 (plus shipping plus FFL transfer fee), you can buy a complete lower from Palmetto State Armory (PSA) and pair it with whatever upper you want. You could also build a lower yourself for $150 or a little less (from PSA, $50 to $60 for a "blemished" stripped lower and $80 for lower build kit [includes all of the required to complete your lower include all pieces for the stock]).
2. You need to figure out what weight of barrel/upper you want (light, medium, heavy).
For a heavy barrel, White Oak Armament, which appears to have a good reputation for accuracy (I think some on this forum really like WOA uppers), has varmint uppers listed on their website for just over $600 ($610 to $650). Again, you would want to consider whether the WOA varmint upper is heavier than you would want for your plinker/coyote rifle.
3. A "mil-spec" trigger (like in a $150 PSA lower) might not allow you to utilize all the accuracy a premium upper (like a WOA upper) can provide, but you could see if the mil-spec trigger worked for your purposes before deciding whether to replace the trigger with another one.
Naturally you can buy from your gun show contact, but I was just trying to give you an idea on pricing with one example. ---------------------------------------------
4. Besides accuracy, barrel length and weight, and trigger, you will want to decide on stock style and whether you want a front sight. Also, decide whether you want a flash hider.
What do you mean by "plinking"? How far will you be shooting? How much accuracy do you need....what will you be satisfied with? How much / how often will you shoot it....how many rounds in a year? What kind of ammo will you be shooting....expensive match ammo or FMJ?
I ask because all of those things will be pretty big factors in a recommendation. To some folks "plinking" means 600 yard steel with match ammo every weekend and to others it means shooting empty beer cans in a dirt pit twice a year.
I will be using it mostly for plinking, paper targets out to 300 yards, possibly coyote hunting up to the same range. Will probably shoot at least a hundred rounds a year.
Considering their current cost/ability to hold their value AND(most importantly) their currently using standard parts instead of the special pin nonsense and decent QC, Colts are kinda hard to beat at the moment.
value only has meaning if you ever intend to sell.
Sounds like it is his first one so if by some odd chance he doesn't like it he can sell it for what he paid for it in no time flat which may not be the case with many other brands of complete guns or DIY builds. That and the current Colts are something of the gold standard. Not to say others aren't as good, but currently they do seem to have it together on what they ship out.
As far as price point goes, from what I have seen and read about Palmetto State, they would be very hard to be on the cost to quality ratio so long as one sticks to their classic or premium grade stuff and steers clear of the PTAC stuff which is so far all I have really heard of having issues in recent years.
I wouldn't say that he could sell it for what he paid for it in no time flat. They're just too plentiful now. I wouldn't pay $900 for someone's used AR when I can buy it's twin for $900 without looking too hard.
I would avoid anyone with a 1-9 barrel because it limits your bullet choices.
While basically good advice, this is not completely true. The 1-9 Criterion on my longer range gun slings 69gr SMKs and 75gr Hornady HPBTs just fine, and without much fuss. I would most definitely have chosen a faster barrel had I ordered it, but this was a tube the smith had on hand that was never paid for. So far I have been quite happy.
the correct 9 will shoot 80 sierras and 77 sierras.
But you have no room for twist error, and have to run em hard.
Ideally for most, I'd be after an 8 unless you knew all you were going to shoot was 200 or so yards and light bullets...then I'd go 9-10-12 ish.. but I can't stand light bullets in a 223.... just me...
RE Colt being a gold standard. I'll say this, I have my first Colt, Its my onely one.. Well sort of. First thing I did, junk the trigger. Get rid of the barrel and put a Krieger on, and add a float tube. Then it was/is a really good gun after that.
I wouldn't say that he could sell it for what he paid for it in no time flat. They're just too plentiful now. I wouldn't pay $900 for someone's used AR when I can buy it's twin for $900 without looking too hard.
I didn't realize he was a police officer and getting the discount. My mistake.
Cop or not, he wouldn't be tax exempt. Not as nice of a try.
$900 was a random number, as evidenced by the round $900 figure rather than the more accurate $899....Feel free to add applicable sales tax if it makes your feel bad feel better.
The point still stands that I'm not reimburse your full purchase price for what I can buy the same product new.
I wasn't aware law enforcement agencies paid any taxes when they buy firearms including FET.
Plenty of people will pay the purchase price(or close) for a complete unscrewed with Colt. Not so much so for a DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic, or cobble together.
then again I know a lot of folks that would pay more for a cobble together than a Colt....
Depends on who did the cobbling, what the cobbling consists or, and who the buyer is. Once again, a much narrower window than those who would pay for the Colt assembled gun.
I am too and 10-15 years ago I would have whole heartedly advised against Colt stuff on the proprietary parts(that are not an upgrade in anyway unlike some of the KAC stuff) crap alone. That wouldn't have been helped by seeing an LE only gun in a shop around 2002 that despite being lubed well had an ejection port cover that would only open about half way unless forced.
I would avoid anyone with a 1-9 barrel because it limits your bullet choices. How much money are you looking to spend?
I prefer the 1/9 because I like the lighter bullets. 50 to 60 grains. If you want to shoot over 300 yards on a regular basis with heavy bullets then consider a 1/8 or 1/7. kwg
Q. Why is there a difference in price between officer letterhead and the police dept.?
A. Generally the reason is federal excise tax. All pistols have 10% and all long guns have 11% federal excise tax (F.E.T.) added to the cost at the factory when sold to police officers or civilians. Police departments are exempt from the tax as well as state tax.
I don't intend on shooting bullets over 60 grains, more than likely will stick with 50-55 grn slugs. Can anybody recommend a specific brand of receiver and barrel combination, how about sights, any good inexpensive scopes and mounts out there. I have seen some one brand AR's at Walmart starting at $750.00, saw a few at a local gun show for the same price but can't remember what brand.
If you are getting in to that price range at Wal Mart go a bit lower and get an S&W M&P-15 sport. Those are very good carbines and the integral trigger guard lower is very nice.
Because, atleast around here. Most dealers give a ten percent discount to police, fire/ems and active military personnel
Why would a dealer around there transfer it to the department first to give you the discount?
Geezus you're dumb.
As an individual, i, or a Firefighter/EMS provider gets a store discount of ten percent on personal purchases. It has nothing to do with any agency, it's a courtesy discount. But I still have to pay all sales tax and NiCS transfer fees
Because, atleast around here. Most dealers give a ten percent discount to police, fire/ems and active military personnel
Why would a dealer around there transfer it to the department first to give you the discount?
Geezus you're dumb.
As an individual, i, or a Firefighter/EMS provider gets a store discount of ten percent on personal purchases. It has nothing to do with any agency, it's a courtesy discount. But I still have to pay all sales tax and NiCS transfer fees
Not dumb at all. The orginal question was specifically about why officers have firearms shipped to their department on department letterhead instead of going to an FFL.
I don't have them shipped to the dept. i may be mistaken but I believe when Blue referred to letterhead he meant using it as a form of ID when ordering from certain suppliers that require it. I don't buy from suppliers often.
I shoot Hornady TAP 60 V Max and 55's almost exclusively.
They are expensive but my AR's and Minis shoot clover leafs, almost always with the 60's, some too tiny to note or I'll start an argument here, and not ever too shabbily with the 55's. I cannot find any since Sandy Hook but have a "few" set aside anyway. I think they are replaced by "Urban" with normal brass by Hornady for now until these ammo problems clear. I just got tired of reloading after 30 years of it.
Expensive at a dollar a pop but nickel cases and about zero flash.
This is in a 1 in 9 twist, my preferred twist for anything up to 64 grains.
My A R for the TAP's accuracy level is a middle tier S & W.
Mule Deer on this forum, resident famous writer worked up reloads for just a plain, light weight entry level priced Bushmaster that he shot groups with several propellants for bullet weights from 40 to 69. It's in my "stack" if it is important to know exactly but many A R's shoot like a house afire.
Heck, I went and searched for it to give him his just credit.
He shoots almost as good as myself , and his reloading equipment with Redding is a tad more sophisticated than mine but this is the point.
This is an entry level 16 inch Bushmaster, lightweight barrel, 1 in 9 twist.
He used TAC, Benchmark, and Varget powders, with 40 and 50 grain Nosler BT's, Barnes 53 TSX's and 50 Varmint Grenades, Nosler 60 Partitions, Hornady 68 BTHP's, and Berger 73 BTHP's.
His 100 yard groups in this entry priced level light weight? This is for 3 shot groups.
.44 .70 .52. .69 .60 1.05 .89 .29 .31
Amazing!!!
Like I said, he can shoot obviously as the average shooter could not wring that kind of accuracy out of that A R 15 Bushmaster. Well, I can but....
I think this was Mr. Barsness's first black rifle of his own according to the article from 2009 although he had shot those belonging to friends before.
So, the potential and probability of you developing loads and getting an A R that can perform is fairly high. Mr. Barsness is of course, an expert period at this stuff.
I don't have them shipped to the dept. i may be mistaken but I believe when Blue referred to letterhead he meant using it as a form of ID when ordering from certain suppliers that require it. I don't buy from suppliers often.
The only reason I can find that something has to be ordered on leterhead is to not have the Pittman-Robertson tax and other taxes attached to it.
I knew zilch about them a few years ago and still know little as they really do not matter in my case, but I selected a mid-length Daniel Defense M4V7 and have thoroughly enjoyed the piece. It is set up as a critter gitter. A second AR was bought from PSA, one of the "Premium Carbines" a year later for half the price and it, too, has been stellar. It is set up as a "combat" piece... One resides in Texas, the other in Idaho. It's pretty easy to make picking an AR difficult...
The only benefit to purchasing a firearm on letterhead is that you can have it sent to your agency, without having to go through an FFL for transfer. There may or may not be price breaks, depending on the vendor, but the FET is still in play.
The only benefit to purchasing a firearm on letterhead is that you can have it sent to your agency, without having to go through an FFL for transfer. There may or may not be price breaks, depending on the vendor, but the FET is still in play.
That isn't what Kieslers and other police suppliers say.
"Q. Why is there a difference in price between officer letterhead and the police dept.?
A. Generally the reason is federal excise tax. All pistols have 10% and all long guns have 11% federal excise tax (F.E.T.) added to the cost at the factory when sold to police officers or civilians. Police departments are exempt from the tax as well as state tax."
Ordering Steps 1. Contact your nearest Sig Law Enforcement Distributor 2. Indicate the pistol or rifle you wish to order 3. Present a photocopy of the above stated credentials or official documentation 4. Upon notification that your firearm has arrived, pick up your purchase from the SLED location or arrange for your SLED to ship your purchase to an alternate FFL dealer (shipping rates may apply).
But seems like most do it on department letterhead.
So, are you admitting you were completely wrong on the FET issue, or just sidestepping it?
Everything I am reading on dealer's sites indicates if it is shipped to a law enforcement agency there is no FET. If an officer is purchasing it privately they all say it has to go through an FFL, not shipped to an agency on agency letterhead.
Good Lord...this is not difficult. From the very exact page I referenced last time;
" Q. Can I order a firearm by mail on a letterhead and have the gun shipped directly to me?
A. YES! We will ship the firearm to the police department c/o the officer that ordered it (a sample format of letterhead is in this catalog). We cannot ship firearms to New Jersey, New York City, or Washington D.C. or ship assault rifles to California or New Jersery.
Q. Why is there a difference in price between officer letterhead and the police dept.?
A. Generally the reason is federal excise tax. All pistols have 10% and all long guns have 11% federal excise tax (F.E.T.) added to the cost at the factory when sold to police officers or civilians. Police departments are exempt from the tax as well as state tax."
"For Individual Officer orders and purchases we will need a copy of your department ID and driver's lic. For weapon orders we will also need the FFL from the dealer you would like it sent to. If using department letterhead please let us know."
And what does the department letterhead result in again?
The ability to have the gun shipped directly to me via my agency. I still pay the FET, but the agency acts as a proxy FFL. I really dont know how many more ways I can explain it.
The ability to have the gun shipped directly to me via my agency. I still pay the FET, but the agency acts as a proxy FFL. I really dont know how many more ways I can explain it.
That's not what that says. And I really doubt dealers would want to lose money(selling below their cost on a FET included firearm) either.
I went and visited a new gun shop in my area the other day, they had a great collection of AR rifles in stock had a informative conversation with a salesman also. He said that my purchase should be based on what I am going to do with the rifle which makes sense, saw a nice Smith and Wesson for $699.00, however adding a 20 inch barrel,scope and a bipod doubles the price. He advised me that if I was going to just use it for plinking and target shooting and occasional varmit hunting out to 400 yards I really don't need a 20 inch barrel, what do you guys think.
Depends on your true needs, if you are really only worried about minute of 'yote, probably OK. If you are splitting "X"s with your buddies, probably OK.
If you want shoot ground burrowing critters at great distance, the longer barrel may be a better choice.
The carbine length barrel, IMHO, isn't going to be any "less accurate" in most ARs, but the carbine rifle is going to be a bit less stable for target shooting out to longer distances. You are probably going to swap some things to get the weld and stability you want.
I could see the scope doubling the cost of the rifle, but not the 20 inch barrel, unless you are going for an uber match upper-tier tube, even then it shouldn't be much over $400. You could probably get a take off target barrel from a member here for much less, and never know it was a take-off from the groups.
Thanks for your help guys, I believe while at the shop I was looking at a Smith and Wesson MP 4 or something like that, it was a plain Jane, I asked what the cost would be to add a 20 in barrel and the price jumped from $699 to $1100, that is without a scope and bipod, is a bipod worth the extra money, also he installs Vortex scopes on his rifles, a 3X9 scope runs an extra $200, so I am looking at about a grand with scope and bipod added to the MP model.
None of mine have bipods, I shoot deer with mine, or a pig or coyote if they cross my path. I hunt out of tree stands so no need for a bipod. Your talking bipod, 20 inch barrel, and then say vortex, I think you would have better luck with the SWFA SS scopes, Meopta, Leup, Zeiss. I would rather say 5 years from now "wow my groups have gone to pieces" than say "this brand new rifle is a POS" so I buy decent scopes.
Thanks for your help guys, I believe while at the shop I was looking at a Smith and Wesson MP 4 or something like that, it was a plain Jane, I asked what the cost would be to add a 20 in barrel and the price jumped from $699 to $1100, that is without a scope and bipod, is a bipod worth the extra money, also he installs Vortex scopes on his rifles, a 3X9 scope runs an extra $200, so I am looking at about a grand with scope and bipod added to the MP model.
Sounds a bit like you are looking at an M&P Sport:
If so, those usually get very good reviews and are usually mentioned as being better than anything else until you break in to the $1000. Too bad it probably isn't one with the 1-8 barrel, but other than that they are nice.
Probably about right on the price jump to 20" because you are going in to a diffferent model(the M&P PC I assume?) and seems like quite a few brands are higher on 20" guns, likely due to smaller production runs and a smaller market versus carbines these days.
Don't think I would go with the bipod unless you are getting a free floating set up and/or you plan on shooting only off the bipod. Haven't tried an AR with a bipod, but based on trying other non-free float rifles with bipods there can be some rather extreme vertical POI shifts between shooting off the bipod versus not so I tend to doubt the relatively thinner barrel of the typical AR would improve that issue.
Aside from the FET bickering, I think many of the points of picking an AR have been covered. I will try to list them for the OP to make an informed decision.
Price Function Weight (I added that because I hate 10# AR's) Trigger Barrel length and contour, gas system, chambering. Brand name vs. Clone
I have an affinity for lightweight AR rifles (in the 7 pound range, not true lightweights, even tho I am piecing one of those together right now.)
It is really difficulty to not find good deals out there right now. As already mentioned Palmetto State Armory has some great specials, Primary Arms etc. Plenty of Fathers day specials, even if you are a mother #$^%^$...
I do remember that the Smith was the only model that he had on display that did not have a free floating barrel, I have lot of shopping around to do, there are about ten AR dealers within fifty miles of where I live.
I do remember that the Smith was the only model that he had on display that did not have a free floating barrel, I have lot of shopping around to do, there are about ten AR dealers within fifty miles of where I live.
That really does sounds like the Sport. In addition to the markings those have an integral trigger guard, no forward assist, and no ejection port door.
Keep in mind a free float forearm sans high accuracy barrel firing high accuracy ammunition will not accomplish much in terms of performance so be sure what barrel you are getting and what ammo you choose or else the pricier free float forearm would be money wasted.
I have been doing a lot of reading and research the last couple of days, due to my limited budget I will probably buy a complete rifle instead of building one. I am strongly considering a DPMS or Smith and Wesson, the DPMS is a little less money but the Smith appears from what I have read to be of better quality.
Take a look at Armalite,they are still building a damn good rifle
Yep, and most importanly Armalite is still selling anything officers in ban states want instead of screwing them over and limiting them to only what is civilian legal.
Sheep is one of those "special" children that rides a bicycle and whom the local police have given a crossing guard belt along with a ticket book so they can "pretend" to be a real policeman.
Sheep is one of those "special" children that rides a bicycle and whom the local police have given a crossing guard belt along with a ticket book so they can "pretend" to be a real policeman.
I started this because I need some help in purchasing an AR 15 style rifle so lets knock off the childish comments OK. If you want to discuss other issues there are other forums.
I started this because I need some help in purchasing an AR 15 style rifle so lets knock off the childish comments OK. If you want to discuss other issues there are other forums.
Good on you for telling them to stop the childish name calling.
You might want to tell that to the guy who did the video since he shares your fondness for swords. I am not even in to large knives or carrying 3-4 knives as you do since I don't feel any need to compensate for anything.
I started this because I need some help in purchasing an AR 15 style rifle so lets knock off the childish comments OK. If you want to discuss other issues there are other forums.
It's the Internet Freddy, lighten up.
You've got about all the advice you're gonna get out of this one. If you've narrowed down your search and have more specific questions then ask them. Otherwise, you can call this thread done.
Who are you to tell me how much advice or help I can get on this subject, there are other firearms related forums out there were people are not acting childish.
I never said you can't get more advice on thi SUBJECT. I was referencing this thread, as is evident by my specifically referencing "this thread" and even encouraging you to start a new one with more specific questions.
But if the other forums are so great, feel free to ask there too. I hear great things about Arfcom.
I am finally getting some idea on which AR I am going to buy, I visited 10 gun shops in the last three days, after about 150 miles of driving I am close to making a decision. I am probably gong to purchase on of these but would like an opinion.
Bushmaster Predator or varmiter, they have 20 inch barrels $799 plus tax
Custom made lower reciever manufactured for a local gun shop along with a DPMS kit which includes trigger group and barrel $ 935 plus tax
Stag M2 $950
Core 15 $800
DPMS A4 $899
Rock River Lar 15 $849
DPMS AP 4 $899
Smith and Weson MP $699
I like the smith and wesson but it does not have a dust cover, any advice or suggestionsis appreciated.
I went and purchased the Rock River arms Lar 15, it has a two stage trigger, dust cover and a free floating barrel, reg price was $1089, got it for $849. I also purchased a Vortex Crossfire ll scope with Leopold mounts, I looked at the Redfield , Nikon and Bushnell scopes and the Vortex had better clarity, will probably go out and test it in a few days.
Freddy, i think you wil be very happy with your Rock River. We are issued the RR operators and equip them with eotech optics. 5 x magnifiers, tlr-1hp lights and burris lasers. I put mine through hell and have had zero issues with it
I am happy with it except last night I was removing the factory oil from the barrel, chamber and bolt carrier group like the instructions suggest before shooting it, had a hell of a time getting the bolt and charge handle back in place. I had a scope mounted using the leopold high mounts but sometimes the front sight appears at the bottom of the scope, either I need even higher mounts or will have to remove the front sight, can that be done without hurting the rifle.
Flip the upper upside down, slide the charging handle in until it pops into place then slide the BCG in. Be sure the bolt is pulled "out" of the BCG before installing it, a flick of the wrist is all you need.
, and his reloading equipment with Redding is a tad more sophisticated than mine but this is the point.
And I really doubt dealers would want to lose money(selling below their cost on a FET included firearm) either.
