My father lives in Western Montana, and wants a special gun for wolf protection when he is out hiking. The protection is not for him, but for his bird dog. Wolves have killed a number of dogs in recent years, so the threat is credible.

The performance parameters:
able to dispatch a wolf up to 100 yards
multiple repeat shot capability
very light--4-4.5# would be ideal
compact
more accuracy than a handgun permits.

The only thing I can think of that comes close to meeting these parameters would be built off the AR15 receiver. But this is not my specialty, so I thought I would get some advice. This gun is for carrying, not for high volume shooting, so a polymer lower is certainly a possibility. He has suppressed weapons, so getting a tax stamp is not out of the question. He does not have a .22 can.

What would you build? (The more details you can provide, the better.)

Montana .223 with a 4x33 scope, shooting 65 gr. GKs or similar.

Not going to make your weight, but plenty light.

1/8 or 1/7 Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) using a 10.5 inch barrel. He will need to get a Class 3 license to own ($200.00 tax stamp and up to 6 months wait) but it would be compact and have the firepower to go with it. I have made hits standing with an eotech to 250 yards on Steel Poppers. For the money I would look at LMT or Daniel Defense.

He could also get a 357 Sig in the handgun of his choice for longer shots with a red dot style aiming device on it would be another option?

4-5 pounds with an optic wow. Get a tactical solutions X ring 22 LR and 4x fx2!

DD, Wilson, and VooDoo all make 16" lightweight contour AR barrels with mid-length gas that weigh in right at 1 1/2 pounds. Midwest lightweight handguards are 1/2 pound, and very slender.

I'm not sure you can 5 pounds, but you can get close.

It'd be tough to beat a Montucky 223 for Utility. I'd happily chop one to 20".

It would be NICE,if Woofs chased Dogs and it were a problem!..................(grin)

Montucky 223/.243/.257, they would all kill wolves just fine.

Seen it................

BTDT. He really wants to push the weight down.

If a Montana is "too heavy",go TacSol or similar Ruger pistole,wearing a good dot...............

He is 79; his pistol shooting is not as fluid as it used to be.

Why chase unobtanium .

Lever action 22 mag..

The noise would do it.

Unless a 22LR Pistole is a Woof Call...then I'll be adding to the herd..............(grin)

All my Rimfire levers are heavier than that................

The only AR lighter than a Montana or close to the same weight, is a S&W 15-22 and I'd rather run a Montana.

AR's are not light. Even my Colt light weight weighs 7 lbs with an ACOG on top.

I really love AR's but for LW, I carry one of my Montana's.

Just might be guilty of same.............

light 22 or 22 mag, scoped. Noise will do it and if not a few hits with a 22 mag should get anything out there headed the ohter way.

I"d really be thinking pistol myself.... but you noted his shooting is not that good anymore, though I'd offer to think that optics could change that...

Maybe something along these lines?


http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/su-16d/rifle/

M1 Carbine, maybe with a rail and red dot, comes close to your criteria. Weight would seem to be the biggest hurdle.

Personally, I'd simply buy a Noveske Thunder Ranch and put an Aimpoint H-1 in a Larue LT660 mount.

http://www.shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/thunder-ranch-rifle

Hey Wait, I own precisely that combination and it is my very favorite AR. I LOVE IT.

The all-up weight is a little over six-pounds, which is pretty darned light, considering.

Good luck with your choice,

kd

I appreciate all of the ideas.

What is happening is that wolves interact with off-leash dogs and exhibit all sorts of submissive/"come play" body language, and then then the dog is close enough, they turn on it and kill it. It would be a shame to loose a mature, fully trained GWP that is a member of the family to such an encounter. But it does mean that the fatal encounter could easily be playing out at 50-60 yards, maybe further. It is going to require quick and precise shooting--you don't want your dog falling to friendly fire. I really think a handgun is out, unless your name is Miculek.

Early evidence is that wolves in MT are not super shy to gunshots--they have not been hunted enough to have that fear. Popping off a couple of rounds of .22 mag in the hopes that it will run off does not seem to be a robust strategy.

The point that they are trying to make is that what you want doesn't exist. You're not getting an AR to that weight. A Montana doesn't make weight.


Viable options-

An 8in 300 Blackout AR.
A 10.5in 5.56mm AR either as an SBR or as a "pistol" with a SIG Stabilizing Brace.
A Keltec PMR 30 with a red dot.

With that in mind, where are you/he most willing to compromise?

If I have a 22 mag and a wolf at a 100 yards, I'm shooting to kill it, not scare it off.

I'm still only seeing unobtanium past the .223 montana.

The Montana is the highest connect percentage...................

if you want light weight and range without going pistol ill also say go with a Kimber Montana in 223....my 84M in 260 makes my AR feel heavy as hell and it only has a red dot sight right now....the Montana is a joy to pack....

I'll throw out another model....
Only suggestion I've heard that pretty much meets the criteria the OP asked for. Not an AR, but would put the hurt on a wolf out past 100 yrds.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/su-16b/rifle/

AR pistol with the right components could be your 4lb system. You can put a rubber cover on the end of the buffer tube and put the tube on your shoulder and get by to 100+ yards no problem. Mount a red dot well forward and you are in business.

Also the rossi ranch hand would work in a similar way (shouldered with a forward red dot) and weighs 4lbs.

I think I'd rather let my dog get eaten than touch off multiple rounds from a 10.5" AR without earpro.

Well, he is beginning to admit that you may well be right. He dug out about a dozen of this lightest rifles last night and weighed them all. He now realizes how much lighter than everything he has--including his .22lr rifles--a sub 5# gun would be.

But I have been poking around over on ar15.com. Some guys are building things lighter than I thought possible on that platform.



It is hard to read the weight on the scales, but it looks like 3# 15 oz to me. But just the photo is posted--no details on the components that were used. But other components are discussed in the thread in which the photo appears.

Lightweight AR15 builds

On the above rifle, the stock and lower and a single piece of plastic. They were selling them a few year back at the gunshows, but you don't see them anymore. They lacked sufficient structural integrity around the receiver pins. In addition, you cannot swap in a collapsible or different pistol grip. The ergonomics on the grip leave something to be desired.

The free-float tube is carbon fiber, very light.

Set him up for success.

Hint.............

That is a good suggestion. I have thought that the 16c could be handy.

Easy to pass on the Keltec......



You can build a lightweight AR but not 4.5lbs. The garbage receiver that you posted is just that, garbage.

Tell him to come off the weight and build/buy something worthwhile.

My 10/22 takedown with Williams rear peep weighs 4 1/2 pounds. Might not kill it. But it probably won't want to play with the dog for awhile.




Travis

You boys are going to talk me into a Montana 223 yet..................(grin)

KelTec sub2000 might be a good option. Mine weighs in at around 5 lbs and 9mm +P out of a 16" barrel is more than adequate for 100 yards. The stock sights are chintsy but functional and you can swap them out for AR type. Adding an optic isn't as easy but can be done with a forearm swap.

I'm hoping he loves dad,a BUNCH more than that POS.................

The guy is 80 years old. He's not some 16 year old Mall Ninja.

What he really needs is a simple reliable bolt action rifle with a quality fixed power scope.

Oh wait....someone already suggested that!!

I'm not a big fan of the poly lowers but the Cavalry Arms Mk II lower is about the best of them and they are light. It does away with a lot of the small items that tended to crack and break on most poly's. The trade off is you give up a lot of choices, stocks, grips, etc.

Considering this is going to be a "light duty" application and weight is paramount that lower might not be a bad choice at all. Mate it up with a 14.5" lightweight barrel, upper receiver W/O foward assist, pinned flash hidder, carbon tube and a red dot sight and you would have a handy little rifle.

This is one of the last Carbon 15s built in Lake Havasu after Bushmaster took over Professional Ordnance. It is under 5lbs with the sight.



I have around 1000rnds through it with zero problems. The barrel is very nice, it is plenty accurate, and it is very reliable.

If you can find one of the Bushmaster marked guns that were made in Lake Havasu I would give it a shot. The current Bushmasters are horrible and the poly used is very weak.

My gun is gassed pretty heavy and if you find a used one I would put a new bolt in it and shoot it just enough to be familiar.

Terry--
You have violated the fundamental rule of the campfire for answering the original question as posed and you may have to be docked several thousands posts in your count as punishment.

Hint...........

Given your dad's age and other parameters, Travis' suggestion about the 10/22 seems like the most promising choice, so far, IMO.

Two spare mags in the pocket will give him 30 rounds all up. His main job is to keep his dog and himself alive and whole.

I would not be too dismissive of his capabilities. MT Dept of Fish, Wildlife and Parks says there are 4 collared grizzly bears hanging out in close proximity to his cabin near the Bob Marshall wilderness, and maybe another 40 uncollared in the general area. When he is up there, he carries a Remington pump 35 Whelen. I do not think we need to demote him to .22lr just yet.

If there was a good dependable AR that weighed in under 5 lbs, I'd have one.

But there are certain things I won't settle for and the carbon/plastic guns are not for me. As to John Burns' carbon 15, I've seen too many of those have problems when a friend used to sell them way before BM bought them out. John is lucky he found a good one.

But if sub 5 lbs is the goal, I'd look at a Contender carbine in 223 and start drilling holes and scrapping anything non essential.

First wolves now bears, interesting.

Is this him?

No, he looks more like this...



You guys out of places like Georgia need to realize people in the northern Rockies simply need a different situational awareness than all y'all. Nobody is waiting to roll us when we come out of the Piggy Wiggly. But we have jumped four bears near the cabin in the past couple of years. None felt like pushing the issue, so no shot were fired.

My father, to use his words, has been "obsessing" about "how light can you go?" I thought there might be some credible answers to that question, not the threadworn 'Montucky or die, hint hint' self-aggrandizing character assassination bullshcit that the campfire has devolved into.

You bring it on yourself by escalating from wolves to bears, reads like a "but what if there were" bullshite thread. If you got a question don't be an ass and dribble out your requirements, spell it out boy, folks will accommodate.

I didn't assassinate anyone's character.

I seriously think the .223 montana fits the bill the best, even if it fails at the rather ridiculous weight requirement.

The five specific design criteria in my original post still stand.

Well a different solution might be in how it is carried. When I went from carrying a rifle in my hands to throwing it in a kifaru gunslinger the weight was not near as important. As my dad has gotten older he also looked at ways of lightening his load without ditching his beloved boat anchor, a Ruger 77. The solution was a gunslinger and treking poles. The combination has put him back on the mountain after sitting out a couple of years due to knee problems.

My go to gun when I want something light and handy is my .45 colt lever gun. It wear a huge ghost sight, the kids and wife can all shoot it well and a 280gr LBT goes pretty deep even when only pushed to 1300fps.

I'm confused...Is he a feeble old fella that's just out ambling through the woods with his dog or an elk slaying, Whelen toting man's man?

Montucky 223.

Hint.

I ain't guessing.

That'd be another hint................

ONe of these
http://www.del-ton.com/Custom_Upper_p/cu103.htm

And one of these
http://www.tnarmsco.com/sale-flat-dark-earth-complete-lower-magpul-moe-equipped/

And an A-2 handle and a nylon sling and you are right at 6 lbs. Add the weight of a 20 round magazine and you might be up to 6.5 lbs.

It's easy to carry and fast to handle. kwg

Pass the Montucky.

Hint...............

If a 10/22 is not the answer and a Kimber .223 is not the answer, I'm not sure what is. A quality, reliable AR isn't likely to come in under 5#.

And if bears are suddenly a possibility I wouldn't be looking at a .223 anyway.

So, a 35 Whelen won't kill wolves?

This afternoon was a Father/Daughter day. We hit a half dozen gun stores and passed a couple dozen rifles through her hands, including the Savage Lady Hunter and some high priced, ultra light AR. Her hands down favorite was a Kimber Classic in .308.

If I had a daughter,I'd get her a Montucky or two...............

Though I'd draw the line at letting a girl,shoot a Bear................

If you want something nice and compact, but a little heavier than you'd like, how about a FNH PS90?

They were on my list, we just didn't see any today. The Classic was as close as I could come. A .223/.308 set with a pair of gold rings would cover alot of ground.

For the situation originally mentioned, I would run a Ruger 77/22 Magnum, in the original stainless/boat paddle configuration, with a Leupie 2.5 Ultralight shooting Federal 50 grain bullets.

Well I got a good one. I think they had all the bugs worked out about the time Bushmaster did the hostile takeover of the company. Kind of sad that nobody is making something equivalent.

My nieces love the thing.


Far right. They get to shoot HD ARs too.






That thing is about a perfect match to the OP specs. I would love to wade into a wolf pack with it and a 20 round PMAG of 70gr VLDs.

Can you hook me up with a link?

Thanks
kwg

Kimber Montana.
http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/model-84m/montana-3

Another interesting notion, which I appreciate, but the price might be a bit of a stumbling block. Not that it is out of the question, but I would probably need to make sure there were no equally effective choices at a lower price point before recommending it.

Thanks for the link UPhiker.

kwg

A P90!? Holy crap mall ninjas are real.....

You realize the 5.7 is virtually identical to a 22WMR in terminal ballistics, correct?

The 16" version is 6 1/2 pounds before optics and a loaded magazine.

Yeah, and I hate the PS90. It seemed like it would fit his scenario. He was worried about wolves (plural), which would probably mean that he wanted a semi and he didn't have the steadiness for a handgun.
The PS90 is short, light, handy, overpriced and ugly.

I have never worked with it, but I thought it was more Hornet/.218 Bee category.

I can scarcely imagine the look on peoples' faces when the pleasant looking old guy and the fuzzy dog go ambling past, with a PS90 slung on. That would pucker the Missoula latte crowd.

But back to our regularly scheduled programming...I am not an AR15 wonk. I do not know all the tinker toys that are out there that people are using to build them up. I posted this in the AR forum because I wanted to learn from people with more experience how light one could feasibly go in that platform.

We are on page 8 of the thread, and I really do not have a much better sense of an answer to that straightforward question than I did before, except that it is possible to go so light as to become questionable in terms of function. It is clear that Big Stick likes the Kimber Montana, but I think we learned that about 15,000 posts ago.

Oh how I wanted one of those to work and I'm sure some did but Murphy knows where I live.

And if it is not reliable, it is not worth carrying.

Ever give thought to a 223 Montana?

Hint.................

What were the issues? Mine cycles fast and a good mag is a requirement.

It is gassed pretty heavy but that does not bother me if the mag is up to the task of getting the next round set for feeding. I will replace the bolt at 2000rnds. Like a pistol gased AR it just makes sense.

Sure would beat a silly bolt gun if a fellow was neck deep in a wuff pack.



Yet mine is very reliable. And worth carrying to boot.

John, you know a lot more about AR's then I do.

What light profile barrel would you choose?

I've shot or got,everything thus far cited...save the P90.

Pass the Montucky 223 and hold the Fluff.

Hint...................

But if one was to pursue the lightest possible AR without compromising too much, start with a 14.5" pencil barrel from BCM or Daniel Defense, pin an extended flash hider on it to save the NFA.
Rainier Arms sells a forged aluminum upper with a dust cover but no FA. A standard forged lower too.
JP Enterprise sells a low mass carrier, spring and buffer set up that is expensive but will save the most weight. You might need an adjustable gas block to.
A carbon float tube if you must or maybe one of the new key mod rails that are supposed to be light.
An old plastic carbine stock is about as light as they get.
An Aimpoint H1 red dot in a DD mount ought to be good enough.

Now that should get you close to 5 lbs, use a 10 rd pmag.

Now the downside, you can add about $300 for the JP stuff, cut 100 fps from a 16" barrel, the red dot isn't the best option for older eyes, it's gonna need lots of fine tuning to make the mess run. Approximate price not including the $600 Aimpoint, $1000.

My 22-250ai Montana weighs 6.5 lbs with a 3.5-10 Leupold on it. Which would you prefer?

My goto carbine has this contour.



0.750 at the gas block, 0.800 under the handguards, and 0.720 in front of the block. With heavy fluting ( 0.125) this is a 1 lbs 12 ozs barrel in 16 inches.

The "pencil weight" profile with a 0.625" gas block is 1 lbs 8 ozs.

A standard Med Con barrel without the aggressive fluting will go 2 lbs in the 16 inch configuration.


Carrying everyday with a slight chance of use?

This.



Neck deep in a wolf pack set on the destruction of my dog.

This.



I have used the Kimber (back when they was made in OR) for canine killin and while it works OK is falls well short of a properly setup AR.

Not the best picture but you get the point, canines and the Kimber 84 many years ago.



One might say I have been there and done that and the Kimber simply does not stack up. Of course that is just my opinion and should be taken for what it is really worth.

John, that's very nice.

Thanks for sharing.

Have you began marketing them yet?

Not much as demand seems to exceed supply.

Our Governor, Matt Mead, here in Wyoming is an early adopter.
Cody Carroll, Magpul Dynamics, Goofy fellow, Wyo Gov Matt Mead, Wyo Arms Jeff Leisy.






Wyoming Governor Matt Mead policing up his brass on the range. It is good to live in a free state.

Burns,

Your incredible Cluelessness is never not a phuqqing riot and you'd greedily phuqq a blue-haired old lady outta her last nickle. You greasy Snake Oil Salesman are a phuqqing riot!

I got killed (7) times last year,by packs of Wolves alone.

Laughing...you poor poor STUPID phuqq.

Wow.................

Did not know that much about your dad. In that case, never mind.

If the 22LR is not worthy, but you are considering a 5.7, I might suggest a Magnum Research 22 Mag. They weigh around 4.5. Put a Roopold Delta Point on top and you'll be UBER close to all your requirements.

If bears are in the mix, tell him to go Randall #1 and a large-ish baggie of cocaine in the possibles bag.



Travis

Burns,

You're lookin' pale. Hit the salon!



Travis

Mackay Sagebrush has built an ultralight Ar that he carries all around ID. Under 6 pounds.

He posts photos of it from time to time.

BMT

Pass the Montucky 223 stuffed with 75A-Max.


Along with a HERD of angry Woofs!

Hint.............

It will work on the lawn lions, too..

I get the feeling,that's it right handy...to be afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess.

'Course I'm on the ropes,as there's no Woofs or Bears here in Kansas.................

When Big Stick posts I just pretend it's Rooster Cogburn as played by Jeff Bridges talking. For some reason it makes it slightly more palatable.....

Facts is disconcerting for many and Pretend is their only move.

Funny how it actually works.

Laughing!................

Or you're just a useless douchebag, and a kiddy diddler

Didn't mean to horn you up.

Hell...maybe after another 20yrs of working the Drive-Thru window,you'll be able to afford a used Montana and get your first phuqqing clue.

Then again.

Laughing!...............

"I have used the Kimber (back when they was made in OR) for canine killin and while it works OK is falls well short of a properly setup AR."

Using a Kimber made back in OR and using a Montana are two totally different things. I'm quite sure I have several "properly" setup AR's and have been using them for years to kill called coyotes. As well as hunting with several others who thought the AR was needed for multiple coyotes, though most could only run their AR well enough to miss quicker.

Montana 204 works on called doubles.

Even works on escaping kitty kats.

I'm quite sure the Montana in 223 I secured yesterday will perform equally well as the one I have in 22-250ai does on pigs or canines.

I hear good things.................

well, if one has a Glock or a 1911 handy:

http://www.mechtechsys.com/index.php

around 5lbs less optics & accessories. Calibers up to 10mm auto. Takes Glock or 1911 mags, depending on model.

YMMV, 'cuz I don't know if they actually work, or not. I can vouch that the Kel-Tec Sub2000's are not so hot.

Have you thought about an M1 carbine?

Yea you did. Apparently I wasn't listening. I'm seeing Montuckys for around $1200. Is that in the ball park?

kwg

m1 carbine 5.5 lbs 15 rd mag accurate to a 100 plus

If he's not afraid of tax stamps, I'd start w this upper:
BCM LW fluted 11.5-in.
Take off the dust cover, remove & plug the forward assist, drop an Aimpoint H1 on it Zeroed for 100 yards at the top of the dot & don't even bother w BUIS. Oughta be good to 200 yards easy.

Put it on a good polymer lower, w a decent trigger, and a standard RE sans stock and call it a pistol until the stamp comes in. Get 20-rd Magpuls stuffed w 40-gr pills. More tissue damage for gutshots; let those bastiches suffer...

Oughta be Uber Wulf Defense Systema, and feathery enough for a mature shooter who packs a Whelen regularly.

I'm about to turn 55 and am doing sumpin similar based on an LMT Mk18 upper I Grabbed after Newtown Panic began. I'm replacing the A2 FH w a Troy Claymore to push the noise away from my raggedy azz remaining hearing.

I posted this earlier. I have two of these lowers and I am happy with them.

ONe of these
http://www.del-ton.com/Custom_Upper_p/cu103.htm

And one of these
http://www.tnarmsco.com/sale-flat-dark-earth-complete-lower-magpul-moe-equipped/

And an A-2 handle and a nylon sling and you are right at 6 lbs. Add the weight of a 20 round magazine and you might be up to 6.5 lbs.

It's easy to carry and fast to handle. kwg

They are a tad bit heavier than 5lbs but why not a Ruger Mini 14?








Or a Montucky 223, I hear they work well too. lol

You could buy this and get a Sig Brace:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...shmaster_Carbon_15_Type_97_S#Post9179604


Travis

Did I mention...

Just to close the loop in this project...

I ordered a Professional Ordnance off gunbroker; it came out to be right at $600 after shipping and paperwork. I put a small Zeiss red dot on it, and with a 10 rd Magpul magazine, it weighs 4# 11 oz.

Based on John Burns' thread comments and some PMs with him about it being "overgassed," I decided to slow down the cycling speed by loading some 40 gr bullets and a light charge of BL-C2 using .222 data. So far, with over 50 rounds through it, there has not been a single failure to function.

For very niche application, I think it will work out well.