Has anyone posted this before? TTAG put a bunch of triggers of a computer graph actuator doohickey and directly compared the amount of take-up, creep, weight, break and reset on charts to directly compare them to each other.

It's interesting that they also put a few bolt gun triggers on the machine to compare them to the AR triggers.

These are all single stage AR triggers. So in a few days when we get another "which trigger should I buy" thread we at least have a reference for single stage triggers.

SINGLE STAGE AR TRIGGER COMPARISON

great comparison. bookmarked it. thanks Eric for posting it

by the way what was it someone clled you in another thread?
something about a Austin motorcycle cop? lol

Vicious lies, I tell ya.

WOW! Thanks for that. I've been looking at more than a few drop-ins for a couple of builds that are still in the planning stages. This info will help a whole lot!

I have the Timney in 2 of my AR and I have them in some of my bolt guns. I think they are a very good investment if you are a target shooter and a long range shooter

Thanks for that, I am considering putting a nice trigger in my DD rifle w/ hopes of that helping me be a better shooter. If you could choose any of those for a duty gun which would you consider. I am so confused


mike r

The $99 Rise did better than I would have guessed.

Got the two $99 Rise triggers I ordered on Saturday. Built a lower yesterday (Noveske lower, Spikes enhanced LPK which included the KNS anti-rotation trigger/hammer pins, JP Enterprises silent capture buffer spring, ...). The trigger feels pretty dang good for $99!

BTE single stage 3 lb good trigger

The best thing about an ar is the 2 stage trigger. Changing to one stage gets rid of one of the best things about precision shooting a small target at distance in field conditions. At the range with a great rest the single stage is fine. The 2 stage dominates it in the field.

I'm not so sure cummins. I have an ELF match and it is actually amazing.

But all AR's are not intended for shooting small groups at longer distance. I have a couple that are, and they have Geiselle's in them. Others are for more defensive shorter distance shooting - there I prefer a single stage, shorter pull, shorter reset, etc. Up until now I've used factory triggers (LMT, Colt, etc), but these Rise Armaments are pretty dang good and a big improvement from factory for $99.

Only if "in the field" consists of small targets at distance.

Do you consider heads @ 300 to be "small targets at distance"?

I'll play along....sure.

Mouse heads or elephant heads?

People way over think the trigger thing. Every 2 stage is a single stage once you hit the wall. I've tried a few single stage triggers and just didn't care for what most thought to be a great trigger.I'm happy with 2 stages in the field or even when trying to shoot fast with a red dot, it just works.

But I'm pretty sure there are some good or even great single stage triggers out there now. Thing is you can't read about one and decide it's the best for you, only pulling the trigger will let you know which is best.

Heck I have one G2S that just sucks compared to my other 4 but stuff still dies.

We didn't shoot IDPA that much over the years, but a fair bit. I don't ever recall really being on the loosing end when it came to using an AR.

I never owned one that didn't have a 2 stage trigger in it.

Now I won't argue that top of the line shooters should use what works best for their sport and I realize that action shooting might be better served with a single stage.

Though I've shot a few matches at even longer distances where it was fire as fast as you can, hits count, misses don't.... and I don't recall being at a loss there and generally at the head of the pack as I really loved those matches....

What's funny is most of what anyone uses in a bolt rifle is single stage triggers, and somehow they are good enough for that but not an AR?!?! Yeah you can't go below ~3-3.5lbs but that's very little more (if any) than my hunting rifles (2 3/4-3lbs). I personally can shoot pretty dam good with a 3lb trigger, and except for trying to squeeze out the last small fraction of an inch off groups I prefer a single stage at abt 3lbs. I totally understand the desire for the 2 stage for a match rifle or even in the field if that's your preference, it's just not my preference. To each their own!

I set my 52D bolt action single stage trigger at 8 oz. I'd go to 4 if the trigger would hold it.

You can set an AR 2 stage trigger at 16-24 oz.

The nations best bolt gun shooters that I know personally, use 2 stage triggers.....

Umm... The standard AR trigger is not a 2 stage.
Did I misunderstand what you're saying?

Love a good pissin match.
Wonder who will drown first.

Chevy, Ford, Dodge?

Its really funny, considering some of us use both, without an issue and back to back... LOL.

If you'll notice, I said "most", and then even further said something about squeezing out the last improvement in groups....

You just have to argue...

And I've yet to see a bolt gun double...

Do you mean bolt 2 stage? If so didn't almost every military bolt gun in history have one? But I do replace them with singles.
Don

if your not doing that then the crappy factory trigger will probably work fine. The other thing is if you want to shoot quickly you can always blow through the second stage like its not even there. the bolt gun comparison isn't an accurate one because if you have a bolt gun you have less shots to connect with so your more likely to be using a steadier rest. When the rest is steady your trigger matter less.

a small target at distance is a relative one. a coyote at 150 yards is a small target to me. a 12" gong at 250 yards is a small target to me. If your shooting these targets with your ar 15, which I do typically off shooting sticks, a 2 stage trigger IMO will out perform any single stage AR trigger.

If your blasting close range or playing around the crappy trigger that comes in a SKS rifle will do just fine. But we are talking aftermarket upgraded triggers in which case I would think most around here would be concerned with precision with.

as for bolt guns if I could get decent 2 stage triggers for them I might change them if I shot them typically from field type rests. All my field type shooting these days seems to be with AR rifles though so I will probably just keep using what I have.

I mean any bolt action gun with any trigger. They can't double cause there ain't another round being slammed into the chamber automatically.

I'm sure they've got the bugs worked out in some of the single stage triggers meant for AR's but the main benefit for an AR with a 2 stage trigger is it allows a light release from the second stage yet still remains safe.

I've tried a few triggers and searched out the single stage canister triggers a few years ago. CMC was having problems and weren't shipping, Timney's or at least the one I tried had too much creep, I wasn't paying the price for a Gold, polished factory triggers never worked or doubled if they were shot enough so I stayed with 2 stage triggers and have seen no reason to change. But I've heard good reports from most every brand out there now, I'm just skeptic.

I really hope things are better now cause these are the good old days.

The military doesn't.

It's pretty well established since the days of the Krag that 300 is short range, i.e. head-shooting distance. It's not until you get to 500yds, i.e. mid range, that the rifleman transitions to body shots.

lol

300 is the max effective range for the 223 imo. 500 is beyond it. After 3 seasons using a 20 inch ar with a variety of bullets loaded as strong as I can run them. The 223 is weak even on coyotes.

I wouldn't want to get shot in the face with a .223 at 500 yards.

But I wouldn't be terribly worried about many guys in the military shooting me in the face at 500 yards either.

There have been plenty of CM kills with 5.56 out to 700.

Wow, it's a good thing I'm shooting weak coyotes then...

You can't make this sheit up..........well I guess you can.

Are you saying you can't make headshots at 300 yards?

I don't see as I mentioned my shooting ability.

Actually, I said that you must make this sheit up.

Please provide credible sources on infantry riflemen transitioning from head to body shots at 500 yards.

I don't know where you're going to find that in writing, but it's a saying among rifle shooters. If you look at the target sizes, it's a pretty obvious conclusion with casual observation.
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015...erican-target-development-and-evolution/

If you do a search on it, you will find references to it as well. Google is your friend

Considering that I shoot with a bunch guys up to almost 90 years old that can put at least 7 out of 10 shots in a 7" circle at 300, it's really not that hard. Even you could do it.
Doing the same at 600 or even 500 is doable, but much harder. Hence, COM concentration instead.

I have no doubt that guys your age or my age can do it, for fun, at the range.

We are talking about 18-25 year olds who are being shot at.

Are there range flags on the battlefield so they know when to transition from head to body shots?

By the way, just so this isn't a complete thread hijack, I will take a two stage trigger.

No, they have sergeants to tell them!

Seriously though, it's a pretty intuitive thing. If you can hold on it, you're going to shoot at it. And in these days of Trijicons, etc. you can hold on smaller targets farther out.

I'd sure hate to poke my head up 300 yards from a bunch 20-something Jarheads armed with any sort of ARs (M16A2s, M16A4s, M4s, whatever). How big would the largest chunk of your head be after being shot at by half a dozen of them? LOL!

Here's an article that will leave you smiling.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-07-29-iraq-sniper_x.htm

Have a good day!

What do 7" circles have to do with head shots?

Yeah, LOL, might want to try it rather than believe what you hear...

I've killed and will continue to, deer out to 600 with the 223... its not a big deal. Shot placement is the key. As it is with any cartridge. Heck the 22LR is enough for deer to 100 pretty easy all day long too.

Edited for clarification....

What do 7" targets have to do with head shots?

Some credibilty should come from the fact that the short range to 300 targets have been head/shoulders silhouettes only. and the 500 out have been 3/4 full silhouettes....

Yes, I suspect stationary head/shoulder targets to 300 yards are doable when your on the square range and no one's shooting at you.

You didn't read the article. 400 yard head shots were doable for the Marine.

Your "2-way" range perception brings up a good question. If the enemy is *always* shooting back at you and you never get shots at them when they aren't expecting it, are you a good soldier?

The Marines in WWII also shot Japs in the head as they swam out to sea trying to escape. I think it was the battle of Okinawa, for one.

BTDT have we?

Well this thread is just plumb full of fail.

1-A 7" target is not representative of a headshot. Hitting a 7" target has nothing at all to do with shooting somebody in the head.

I've seen exactly two people shot in the head, that weren't suicides with shotguns. Both lived. One appeared dead, then woke up and gave me such a fright that I nearly shot him myself. He walked to the ambulance, got a stitch and went home with a headache. A shot in a the hard parts of a skull aren't reliable head shots. The second was shot through the lower part of his face, below the eyes, with the bullet passing from the right side of his face to the left. Aside from nearly drowning in his own blood he was fine. In fact, I had to fight him into handcuffs. A shot in the parts of the head that don't contain brain or spinal column aren't reliable head shots.

A real, honest to goodness headshot is a shot that passes through the eye-nasal-ear-temple area and into the brain-spinal column. If you're shooting a 7" circle and calling that a head shot you're kidding yourself.

2-What target are we talking about that the military is using for head shots? Rost mentioned head / shoulders.....


Is this the target we're talking about? Because that head / shoulders target is 26" wide and 19" tall, although it tapers at the top. Even with the taper to the head shot, that's a giant target and definitely not representative of "head shots at 300".


3-As I said, yes...A head shot (a real head shot) at 300 yards is a small target, especially under field conditions, away from a bench or bipod. A real head shot is around 3".

So I don't know what all military guys are shooting 3" targets at 300 yards with 3MOA ammo, but I haven't seen any. And I've seen more than a few guys from the military on the range. In fact I was on the range this afternoon with a jarhead that repeatedly missed a torso sized piece of steel at 200 yards with a 4X ACOG. So apparently he missed "head shot day" in boot camp.

AMU recommends a 300 meter zero.
http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...on-marksmanship-misconceptions/81544236/


This quote even illustrates that 300 is a significant number.

Blue, with all due respect, I think you are too caught up in the 3-gun blam-blam style shooting. Not that it doesn't have value, the Army teaches it so obviously they think it's important. I understand you are LE too and that is a totally different situation. If you can't smell the target's breath, it's probably going to be called an unjustified shooting.

I'm no soldier, but even I'm smart enough to know that not every engagement is going to be "Hogan's Alley". A good soldier is going to do a lot of stalking, a lot of ambushing. That goes for the enemy too.

When you talk about the improbability of hitting a 3" target (Oh, BTW, the X ring is 3") you also fail to take into account that a soldier usually has friends and they are often shooting at the same target. They may not hit on the first shot, but if each of them dump 4 or 5 rounds on target the probability of a hit is pretty damn good, even in the days of the M1.

Sorry this is so sidetracked, but you blammo types just don't seem to have a clue. You treat high power rifles like they are at best submachine guns.

They are no "head shot" targets in any longer range military qualification that I know of. Smallest target is a 12" circle, and that's the bullseye at 100-300m. Then you have a 24" and 36" circle outside the bull that still score (think I remember all that correctly). That's the Marine Corp. Army has silhouettes that pop up out to 300m (singles and doubles I think), hit is a hit no scoring based on where you hit it. And if I remember right, shorter range targets are half silhouettes (shoulders and head vs full torso).

I was, but awhile ago. But brother still is as well as many friends.

Never remember having any issues qualifying, even expert, with a mil spec trigger let alone a good single stage.

For matches, yes, a two stage is an advantage, but for combat, not for me or anyone I know that's been there, done that.

I don't think this is sidetracked at all. When people post nonsense it's important to talk about it.

Blam blam, bad breath, 7" circles, are all irrelevant.

I'm talking about your assertion that the military teaches to make head shots out to 300 yards and then transition to body shots. That's nonsense in its purest form. If it weren't you'd be willing to talk about it.

The targets are the size they are for a reason. And so are the scoring rings. The D target isn't the only target the military shoots at 300. (I don't know where you came up with the "A" Target, but it looks just like a SR target which has an X ring of 3" and a 10 ring at 7"). The goal of putting them in the X & 10 rings of an SR is obviously training for hitting head-sized objects.

Even your picture shows a transition from head/shoulder shots to body shots at 500.

so I have to ask are you joking? you have to be but lets just say for the sake of the argument your not. what you just said indicates you don't have the first clue about making a 600 yard shot. have you even taken one? I have big game rifles that shoot sub half minute and at 600 yards in the field to rely on perfect shot placement is simply a fantasy at that distance. I am relying on less than perfect shooting rests, I also don't get to take 4 sighter shots before I decide to shoot.

trying to shoot a deer at 600 yards with a 223 is well yeah akin to shooting a deer with a 22lr at 100, both are equally as irresponsible. and further internet BS. let me quess your probably doing it with a 16" barreled ar 15 too.

also if your from where is listed on your profile the type of terrain and hunting conditions in that area aren't conducive to even needing to shoot that far.

so just admit your spouting internet BS

The targets and scoring rings are the size they are so that people who miss will still pass a qual, not because they're realistic.

It helps to know your audience, douche bag.

Well, now you guys have given me yet another reason to feel inadequate! Here I was gimping along with the stock trigger in my AR (a little creepy but altogether not heavy, and smooth), getting well under sub-MOA accuracy off the bench and hitting anything placed in front of me from field positions out as far as I care to shoot. Now I find myself googling these various triggers y'all are talking about, and scheming about an upgrade. Truth be told, I'm not unhappy with my trigger and there might not be any need for me to change it.

. So you agree with rost?
I just made his quote my signature. It's actually pretty funny.

I agree with my quote, that you're a douche bag. And I'll happily make that a DB+P.

Tell us how little he's shot at 600 yards again.

. Sorry your having a bad day. Someone pm,d me with some additional info. I stand by what I said and further if what they told me is true about rost, the statement is even more rediculous. Besides people that are really truly the good at something don't brag about it, typically

Once you upgrade you will be unhappy with the stock trigger. Difference is night and day.
Looks like your hardest choice will be whether to go single stage or two stage.

D and B are what I see in NTIT matches. At least last I shot.

D you don't even aim for the head, you aim center mass, largest part of the target anyway.

7 inches isn't a killing head shot for sure, but military always said wounding is better than killing... Me, I'd be trying to kill personally.

Head shot is a 3-4 inch target, round in size mostly IMHO on a human. Anything below the eyes aint it.

I"ve never heard of military being taught to aim for head for general troops, I believe tehy can come to that conclusion on their own if they need to. Mostly the head comes from the reason of the D target. Up closer the assumption is that your target will be somewhat concealed. And that the head might be the only thing visible, you are still aiming at the center mass of whats visible.

I'll ask my nephew that just got out of the Marines if they were ever taught to head shoot.

Now can you hit heads at 300, yes, some are very capable, and some are capable with irons. But most raw recruits, non gun people, in any situation are lucky to hit a human anywhere in the body at 300 IMHO.

Agreed! Very few recruits are gun people, maybe more now than when I was in though (especially if you count video games... ) . I spent an f'ing week on KP because the first morning of marksmanship training at the range (Ft Benning - Summer 1989) I did what I was capable of (sighted in my own rifle and actually hit the targets) and immediately got pulled off the line and sent to KP until the day of qualification. I was told I didn't need to be there as much as the rest of my platoon, most of which were from urban areas and had no experiences with rifles.

ugh, if you'd have only known... you could have shot the dirt, others targets etc.....

This has been highly entertaining especially since I opened it to see the conscious on single stage triggers.

I prefer 2 stage but find nothing wrong with ones preference for a single stage trigger. My favorite attribute in a trigger is a crisp break.

As to rost not knowing anything about a 600 yard shot all I can say is anyone who makes High Master in XC HP with an M1A knows a little bit about shooting at 600 yards.

You are right... a little... LOL. Lots of others know more.

I shot better at 600 in the end with the AR though... even at 1000...

Sure liked the M1A though..

I love single stage, but my AR point is I'll take crisp over the argument 2 vs 1 any day. If their is truly a crisp single stage thats light enough, more power to anyone... years ago there was no such choice...

I've given that exact advice to the kids I knew before they headed off to Basic.

My nephew was high shooter in Marine boot... 4 years ago. He didn't get dinged for knowing how to strip the 16 and how to shoot and zero it...

What recruits are you observing?




Travis

Holy fugking Christ.

LMFAO.



Dave

That's what I do in every class I've ever taken.

Throw a few shots, miss a few steps, flub a few questions. Then ask for advice from the instructor. Come back the next day and do everything right, then thank them for their help.

You're a rockstar for doing it right and the instructors love you because you're living proof of how great they are.

That's Jedi Level Awesome stuff right there.

Ones I've shot some combat quals with years ago... especially with the M9... new to guns and new to shooting, they are not all that reliable that they can hit a head every time at 300.... And hitting the body doesn't happen every time either.

Ok.




Travis