It's been a while since I started at zero reloading a cartridge. Just spitballing some prices - it looks like the cheapest way to get 500 new cases is to buy loaded ammo:

Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO Ammunition 500 Rounds FMJ 55 Grains: $162.29

Starline brass (500): $115
Hornady .224" 55 gr FMJ-BT With Cannelure (500): $54
Small rifle primers (500): $15
Total (less powder): $184

That's not really news, but I wanted to make sure I'm not missing something obvious. Thanks for any input.

Midsouth varmint nightmare bullets are $43/500 and IMHO shoot more accurately than fmj's.
Once fired brass is ~$50/500 if you don't mind a little bit of sweat equity.

Other than maybe buying Lapua for match shooting, why would you buy new 5.56 brass? It's so plentiful to just pick up at the range or local shooting pits, or buy once fired in bulk for a small fraction of the price of new. If I did buy 5.56 brass, it'd be processed and sorted LC only, from one of the many online vendors offering that service.

+1 on the Midsouth bullets, no need to waste time and money loading FMJ.

Why ever buy new 556 or .223 rem brass? I just pick it up at the local range and gravel pits. I picked up so much fc and PMC brass on one outing, that i dont even look for it anymore. Theres all kinds of gi commando spray and pray shooters that leave their once fired brass laying around. Just go and pick it up.

I'm probably just jaded from semi-auto pistol brass. Range pickup and once-fired around here is typically so smiley and beat-up I generally buy new.

I've got at least a 1000 range pickup cases. A few cases have had neck splits, but generally it's perfectly good for plinking ammo. Small rifle primer, 25 gr of H-335 and a 55 gr varmint nightmare and I'm good to go.

The only PITA is dealing with the military crimp.

John,

I don't know what type of gun you ended up with or what your goals are for the gun other than just general banging.

But if you are going to load your own, I surely agree with making a step up to a better bullet than FMJ's.

Besides what's been mentioned, you can sometimes find a deal on various other 50-60 grain bullets from Nosler, Hornady or Sierra, or even some seconds, all of which are better than FMJ.

Buy some decent processed brass of whatever your choice; Rem or Win is fine; stay away from FC; LC is good except that you will need to remove the crimp.

For what you're looking at, there are lots for good powders..............see what you have on hand, & look up some data from a reputable loading source.

But some of the loaded ammo available right now is pretty cheap if you look hard.

If there's anything more specific that you need, let me know.

MM

I leave the military crap lay..

Thanks, Bill.

I went with the M&P15 MOE MID.

I had to find out what all the drama was about, but I'm a little disappointed that the rifle just sits there and hasn't run off by itself and shot something up. Seriously, I'm pleasantly surprised how much I like the rifle and AR platform - more than expected. My goals for the rifle at this point is mostly general banging and for me to learn about the AR. The components I mentioned were low cost but random stuff I used for comparison, not that I have anything against it either. That said the first 500 rounds will mostly be break in and fun. I last loaded rifle cartridges in 1998 (.270 Winchester) and I still have a bunch left - I am starting from scratch component-wise. A XL650 will do the heavy lifting. I plan to stick with the MBUS rear sight, but probably doing something tritium up front, so long range precision is not a goal for now.

I've been around long enough to know that all these plans can change halfway through the first magazine. The rifle has the mid length gas system we talked about earlier and I weighed the buffer in at 3 oz. I don't hate the trigger dry firing out the window, but we'll see over time.

Dillion Swager makes short work of the crimps.

When you get around to shooting it, you then see how happy you are with it.

If the ammo you are shooting ejects out at anywhere from 2-4 o'clock, then the gas port, buffer & spring are more of less OK.

Hotter ammo like true 5.56 will eject a little more forward than lighter commercial 223.

The 3.0 oz buffer is a standard carbine buffer; an H buffer is 3.7 oz.

After you shoot it for a while, just make note of where any particular type ejects.........you will likely not be undergassed so probably no issues with bolt lock back on the last round, but it's always a good thing to load one round & verify lock back.

If you have any issue or need anything, let me know & run it wetter than drier.

And buy decent mags. I like the ACS stainless or the Brownell mags with Magpul followers, but all my plastic Magpuls have run just fine too.

MM

you can get 1000 prepped and sized miltary brass for about $120. I bought swaged, deprimed and cleaned 1000 for $75, which I had paid extra for trimmed and sized. for that kind of money you can just let the gun puke the cases and not bother to pick them up.

I wasn't aware of the ACS magazines until now - $12.99 for stainless? In an earlier bout of paranoia I picked up ten Magpul 30 rounders. That's actually what planted the AR seed and I held out about two months. I ordered the AR in the morning and a bought a M&P Shield from a BIL at lunch - a twofer on Easter Sunday.

For us neophytes, is it ACS or ASC that you're talking about?

My bad - it's ASC. Here's the link to the $12.99 30 round.

Are you guys loading all this ammo on a single stage or progressive press?

If you value your time at all I think your WAY ahead buying bulk ammo for general banging assuming of course you figured in the price of your press and time into the equation.

I loaded up a coffee can of good 55grn V-max ammo for hunting and other precision stuff, took forever.

Im buyin loaded ammo from now on.

I'm on the fence of never reloading 223 again, I just loaded 175 rounds on a single stage, took awhile but I only load when I feel like it now, I don't make myself do it unless its crunch time before deer season. Just loaded up some hornady 55fmj with win 748 and once fired brass I had. I think I calculated I had about 25 cents in a round if I already had the brass. Just don't know if its worth it anymore when you can get decent plinking stuff for 33ish cent a round.

I'd skip the tritium front sight but if you want one I have one in the parts box I ain't gonna use I'd let go cheap.

Range brass is something I stay away from too, I load my cases till I'm scared of em and then leave em lay. Figure others do the same?

I enjoy loading more than watching tv or getting on the internet so my time is not wasted. I try to load all my ammo that I shoot up on the weekend throughout the week so it doesn't pile up too bad. Pistol ammo is done on the Dillon, hunting or long range rifle ammo is done on a single stage and I buy blasting ammo. There were some great deals on IMI M193 up until last month, about .26 cents a round shipped. For your stated use, I'd just buy bulk ammo. When it goes on sale again, buy a bunch...

In my case it will be progressive press - a +20 year old Dillon XL650 that had paid for itself over and over. I will need to buy a conversion kit for $80. I figure from the time I set down my coffee 500 rounds will take a couple hours.

I use to load everything, shotgun and rifle, sold all my shotshell loaders for the 5 bucks a box ammo and now factory ammo is so dam good I just buy that for hunting.

Reloading was always a way to cut cost but I just done see the advantage now. But I work a ton, if I didnt I might do it for fun.

Why skip it? The front sight is an M4-A2 post which I start to lose when the daylight fades. I've never used tritium on a rifle before so I'm guessing. I am concerned that the tritium sight would lose all precision similar to fiber sights for my eyes. I would prefer to stay away from an optic for now. It's a process thing for me - I prefer to start basic and learn my way up.

I"ve won every match I ever won with military crap brass. FWIW

On another note, the 184 left for powder... it takes less than 2 pounds to load 500 rounds...

The time vs money thing everyone has to answer for their own.

At least at the range I frequent most of the .223/5.56 range brass is once fired and it's quite easy to recognize. Seems a lot of people go to Wal-Mart or Academy and buy the cheapest stuff they can find and just bang away with it. Shooters are supposed to sweep it up and put in a barrel for resale, but quite a few don't. It doesn't worry me a bit to pick it up and use. YMMV

JOG, another reasonably priced and accurate bullet to keep in mind is Hornady's 55 gr soft-point with cannelure, $12.59/100 at Graf's just now.

The one I have now is an XS systems post with the white stripe and a tritium vial running lengthwise. You turn it one full round to adjust, there is no 1/4 turn or half so if it's on it'll work great or shoot high or low if not. The tritium and white line won't let you use the top of the sight, in fact at night you will shoot high. It is also wider than I like.

I have had another one that could be sighted in fine but still shot high when relying on the tritium dot. And forget about using one with a low powered scope in low light. My shooting went south when I used either one. I have one rifle with irons only on it and with a bright light mounted in front of the post, I can see it better than in daylight. Doesn't help for shots past 100 yards or at dawn or dusk but I can live with it.

TWR - thanks for the advice. I'll skip the tritium sight.

My bullet cost for Hornady 55 BT or 55 SP is 6.50 per hundred if I buy in 6,000 count bullet.

Get a red dot if you don't want a low powered scope..

MM

That military crimp takes about 5 seconds to cut out on my drill press with a chamfer tool chucked up in it. I pick up what other leave behind. Yes, I'm cheap.

kwg

I just bought 1,250 LC cases once fired from Kaleo Arms, came in a nice .50 ammo can, too. Very nice looking brass. They actually sent me 1,279 cases (I think they just fill the can to the brim and call it good). Took a while to decap, size, trim, swage (Dillon Super Swager), and uniform all of that but now I have a good batch of "perfect" cases. You can get totally prepped once fired bass for about $135/1,000, or buy non-military commercial once fired for around $90/1,000.

Great info, NWPilgrim. Thanks.

We used to buy LC from gibrass.com. But once we hit well over 100,000 cases we called it good and have been since then.

I shot up quite a bit of PMC also, with off center flash holes but that stuff shot knots with our loads too.

We only ran commercial once in one of Carolyns guns that was a bit finicky chamber, and we ran RP nickel in that one but for the life of me with an AR I just had more than enough accuracy to win, even at nationals, with LC brass and never saw the need for "commercial" brass.

Just buy once-fired fully-prepped LC brass if you plan to reload.

Or, save your time and shoot factory ammo.

The reloading only comes into its own if you are trying to setup with a specific bullet that is not readily available in loaded ammo (e.g. Hornady 75AMax, 73ELD).

In 1 outing, I picked up 1200+ pcs of commercial brass that was like new and was once fired. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings about the military brass, but I have better things to do with my time than swage primer pockets.. YMMV of course.. I see no need in ever buying factory produced brass for the .223 rem. This is just a little of the range pickup brass I'm talking about...:

Properly prepped L.C. brass is about the best there is. I pick up all I need at the range. I prefer to do the prep myself.
I bought a batch of 1,000 prepped L.C. a couple of years ago. The primer pockets were poorly swaged and had to be re-worked, the shoulders had been set back 7 thousandths below SAAMI spec, and they were still pretty dirty. It didn't save me any time, and the short shoulders caused the brass to stretch beyond what was necessary leading to risk of early case head separation.
I won't make that mistake again.

One of the members over at Accurate Shooters did a hardness test on .223/5.56 brass awhile back and Lake City came out on top, with Lapua coming in second.

I wish I could pick up cleaned and primed brass at my range.

I agree.

kwg

I spend three hours at a drill press cutting the crimps out of 2,000 Federal brass, two handed non-stop and my hands looked like petrified monkey paws when I was finished. It took about two hours to straighten them out. I will never buy crimped brass again when non-crimped is readily available. I bought several thousand bulk Winchester that was fired through a pressure barrel and a lot of it has loose primer pockets, so the Federal and Winchester gets loaded and fired and looks golden to brass scroungers.

I rarely buy factory ammunition but recently picked up 50 rounds boxes of Black Hills re-manufactured 68 and 75 BTHP to baseline some AR's that are not shooting as well as I want with my loads. I also fired 10 shot groups of both through my Lilja barreled Montana and the 68's were 1" and the 75's 1.3", pretty good for .67/round.

Pretty good huh..

RE commercial brass... if you got that much, yeah I'd not pass it up either. For sure. Even if it wasn't as good as top line brass good free brass is good free brass. And most of the time it works just fine. Good job.

When we shot around 20K a year, there was no way in heck we could afford factory ammo, hence the reason we did what we did.

Just LC??

Come on Rost, LC is very good brass. Once fired LC costs more then once first Remington.

I"m not sure what the come on is? LC worked well enough that we never looked further. It used to be something on the lines of 15 or 19 per 1000... and in lots of instances totally free.

LC would shoot 3 inch or less at 600, my best test group load was 5 shots at 600 at appx 1.25 inches ( used ruler, didn't really care). That was a hummer barrel though. Wished it had been my barrel. LOL

My rule was 10 shot groups at 300 of 2 inches or less, and 5 shot test groups of 4 inches or less at 600, followed by 22 shot strings in matches to prove or disprove a load. LC got us there.

Mathman's done some test with LC brass. Although they were primarily in .308 he found it to be very consistent in case volume and neck thickness. Add in good metallurgy for long lasting cases, and LC's a good value proposition, if you don't mind removing the crimp.

I agree with you guys. No one is wrong here. Many ways to get er done. Whether you scrounge up once fired brass from the range, buy fully prepped once fired stuff, have the tools and patience to remove the crimp, at least you are out there shooting!!!!!! I just got back from the range. Had a little session with my ar10 308 and 3 different types of brass. I wish i could find that chit laying around like i do .223 rem brass! I stepped over a couple hundred pieces of that today. Didnt pick up a damn 1 either. Ive got 223 brass coming out of my ears over here... ill post results of how my new ar10 shot in another thread..

I doubt I'll ever resize another 5.56 case. I buy prepped Lake city brass on line, load it up and spray empties all over the place.

When I run low I buy more.

PS - keep checking brass sites for deals and buy when the price is low.

I'll just keep running over that brass at the range too... .. Pray and spray shooters, bless your souls..

I went with the 500 rounds of the Winchester LC 5.56 NATO FMJ 55g for $149.59 with free shipping. I was having a tough time beating that price by much with free brass. I still plan to acquire the components, but I'll try to do it locally to avoid shipping and hazmat fees. There's a decent gun show next weekend...

WINCHESTER .. LC brass? A new one on me.

It was a new one for me as well.


Winchester Lake City Ammo

Hornady has a partnership with LC also it seems:

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/frontier#!/

That's where I ordered from. Cheaper Than Dirt currently has free shipping over $50 and a $10 coupon.

Never knew that about the other contracts. Wild. Times change.

Thanks.

That explains why Winchester started crimping the primers on some of their 5.56 Ammo.

Let the feeding begin!

JOG,
Is that ammo headstamped WIN or LC?

The Cheaper Than Dirt blurb:

Lake City Army Ammunition Plant has extended its facilities and equipment to Winchester to load their Mil-Spec brand of ammunition using Lake City Mil-Spec components; bullet, primer, powder and brass. In the recent past, Federal was the exclusive source for Lake City ammunition, but now you can purchase ammunition loaded in the Lake City Plant from Winchester. Lake City Army Ammunition Plant now contracts to build Mil-Spec, consumer ammunition are now shared with Federal, Winchester, and Hornady. The last time we saw Mil-Spec, Lake City, M193 ammo from Winchester was the Q3131 white box that was loaded in the Lake City Plant back when Olin ran the plant. Welcome the return of the Winchester Mil-Spec ammunition, loaded by a name you trust, backed by Lake City quality, and priced very competitively.

Yeah, I read the sales pitch on the CTD site. Thanks for the pic.

Maybe a better reply to your question - 'Lake City" doesn't appear anywhere on the head stamp, 20 round boxes, or the 500 round box. Only on the CTD website and the invoice.

Other than the brass showing the typical discoloration from annealing (I think), there's no indication of anything other than regular Winchester.

So the government owns the land and buildings.
Who owns the equipment?
Winchester, Hornady and Federal share facilities? Equipment? Or, does one make 308, another 556......?


Just trying to understand here.

The way I understand it is Federal has the management contract. They supply management, HR, QC professionals etc. The Feds own all the real estate & hardware.

I doubt that it is very difficult to change out the bunting die for the headstamp. That's the last operation performed on brass.

Looks like it has a crimped primer too..

Even some Winchester brand .35 Remington ammo I bought last fall had crimped primers. My first thought was, "Is someone now making .35 Remington AR uppers?"

Winchester has long had a contract with Israeli Military Industries for 5.56 ammo. Q3131A is Israeli and is M193 spec. Been around for years. Headstamp is WCC.