Well, I was motivated by another thread to buy a set of flip up/back up iron sights for one of my rifles. I'll be using that rifle for a little informal match shooting here in my area. The sights I ended up buying are the Ultradyne C4 flip up sights. These are nice sights, but a little spendy. In the other thread, rost made the comment about "cheap" back up iron sights and how they are just about as useless as a Leupold rifle scope. Or something to that nature. It was a funny comment for sure, but I don't know how much water it carries. Maybe Jeff will explain a little more of what he meant by that comment. Anyway, I wanted to share these sights with you guys. I know some of you guys like keeping a set of back up irons on your rifles. These ones get pretty good reviews, but this is my take on them and the first day impression. I'll just show you guys with targets, since I like posting target pics. I'll also post pics of the rifle. The rifle I installed these sights on is my least accurate AR15 in the house, but its one I really could care less if I drilled some holes in the barrel and clamped a gas block on to the front end of it to hold the front sight. This rifle has never turned in a sub moa target on the black rifle challenge, it hovers right there above 1 moa all the time, but it is consistent. I keep hoping one day I'll find a good load the rifle likes: Meaning a load that it keeps all of its shots inside 1 moa consistently:

Gen 1 Noveske varmint with medium weight 20" stainless 1 in 8" twist 3 land barrel. Picture of rifle without Ultradyne sights:


Rifle with Ultradyne C4 flip up sights:



Here's the best target it turned in today. With a score of 100-5X... I also believe that group was the smallest as well, at 1.285"...:

This was after a final 1 click up and 1 click to the left adjustment (if I remember right). I was starting to lose daylight, as it was around 7:30 P.M when I started wrapping things up. I look forward to shooting this rifle with these sights more when the weather is better and when there is more daylight....

I forgot to mention, I ordered these sights with the smallest rear aperature (.050") and an 8 MOA front aperature. You can buy more sizes of aperatures for both the front and rear sights and even a post for the front, if you don't like the globe type front sight pin... I prefer the holes on both sights. Like rost said in the other thread, it is almost like cheating when you use this style of sight on a round target. Of course, it works out best if you match the front aperature with the size of bulls eye you are going to be shooting at. After that, it is pretty simple.

Here are more target pics from this evening:




I also have a target I'll post in the black rifle challenge thread as well. Not as good as rost's, but with a little time behind these and a better day, I can see it doing better... Post up what you guys use for back up irons. I'd also like to hear from Tyrone on the subject of full on olympic style iron match sights. I like shooting targets and I know there are far better sighting systems out there. I'd like to see some of those, if you guys have them....

Good shooting, good looking BUS sights. I don’t know if those are good for service rifle or not. I think they might be, because the Army uses a B.U.S sights Now. The Army turned in the carrying handle type rear style sights yrs ago.

Thanks buddy. These are going to be fun. Just like shooting my winchester model 52, only it's an ar...

These are the rear sights we have on our M4’s

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...gi-backup-iron-rear-sight-prod26575.aspx

Very cool. Thanks for posting that.. I forgot to mention that the C4 sights In the op fit right under my Burris AR556 4.5-14x42 scope I use. No problemmo... It looks like the sights you show here do the same thing. I think what sold me on the Ultradyne sights was the front aperature style sight. I started using those on my 22 target rifles a while back and man those things make life simpler..

We have a hodgepodge of optics, some have acogs, some have m68 others just straight up open sights.

Life was probably simpler when everyone shooting service rifle used the same exact set-ups... Probably a lot more fair as well...

I should of clarified that’s in the Army far as hodgepodge and every battalion is different. Far as service rifle everyone is pretty much on the same page far as equipment. It’s all on the shooter what they want to spend. Like I mentioned in the other thread, all our service rifle folks switched to optics. Some say it’s cheating but I say it’s staying up with the times. For example majority of Jr service rifle shooters use scopes. A lot of the older folks who shot service rifle gave up due to degrading eye sight. But with rules being changed few yrs back allowing optics it brought them back..

Yeah, that is the positive thing for sure...

Funny story we have a guard guy who shoots at the club shoots. He has a nice AR all national match stuff, far as the upper goes shooting irons. First shoot, is a fun shoot. So we shoot to 600yds that’s it. Anyhow, I shoot first time shooting to 600yds. I finish and we do a pit change, Guard guy heads back to the line I’m pulling his target now. He gets to shooting, and we are in the radio. Shooter 12 is in the berm, this goes on for a few shots. Then nothing for a few minutes, then starts shooting again, he’s on target. They get on the radio shooter 12 going to shoot 2 times running out of time we were like ok. We finish up head back to the line, turn in score cards. I had to ask him what he was using for ammo. He said 62gr green tip ammo. I’m like dude go buy some magtech 77gr Sierra otm for 33 bucks. I guess he ran out of elevation, with the first rifle had to switch to other rifle brought. Still not enough adjustment, for those 62’s. Couple shoots later he finally breaks down buys some of that magtech stuff, surprise surprise he shoots better scores.

I'm not shooting service rifle matches though buddy. Here at my club, we just have fun with it. When they say we are having an AR rifle match, it's run what you brung. We have what we call scoped rifle matches, Iron sight class and an open class where you can run what ever you want... We get some heavy hitters coming in from Portland and Vancouver that have a lot more money than I do. Those fuggers spare no expense when it comes to the rifles they bring. One guy brought a big heavy azzed 26" barreled monster and I was joking with him in front of everyone and I said "we should lay $500.00 down on the table", you obviously brought the rifle that is going to kick everybody's azz".. I then said, look at my rifle, it's just got a tiny little fluted barrel on it... "You know you are going to kick my azz with your rifle.. Lets lay some money down".... The guy turns to me and says, "you think i'm a big dummy?, I've seen how you shoot".... .. Hey, it wouldn't be fun and interesting if you couldn't mess with people, huh buddy.... I'm for damn sure not the best and I've even been beaten by girls and old guys shooting beat up old Savages and Steven's 200's... One of the best beatings I ever got (I mean we, as in our whole club) was when this damn guy came to one of our rimfire shoots with a little kids chipmunk rifle. No it wasn't big stick either... This chipmunk rifle was kind of decked out with some nice peeps on it and low and behold the sob shot 5 perfects in a row.... Made us all look bad... At least back then I wasn't using a target rifle, like everyone else in the club was... I had an excuse.. Ha ha..

Ha ha.. That is funny... You see a lot of chidt at those matches I bet...

Again first shoot of the yr last yr. Bunch of are noobs, at least I chrono my load got my data. Anyhow one fella shows up with his hunting rifle couple boxes of ammo might of been Remington corlokt. Anyhow they tried and tried watching his bullet trace. Finally he got on paper, I think he finished with a score of 127.

You got to give him an A for effort, i guess..

Mine are just simple Troy folding sights. I can barely see the front blurry post out there so no need for target type sights. I just want to be able to shoot irons and hit plates. But one thing I have noticed is I like my fixed Daniel Defense A1.5 rear sight and seem to shoot better with them than with the Troy's.

So I'll take notes here and may try something different if I see something I like.

1/2 MOA clicks and a 50 thou aperture - that's pretty darn nice for BU sights!
Of course, you'll probably want a bigger hole for SHTF type shooting.

At what distance from your eye is the front sight hole 8 MOA? 8 MOA is a pretty good fit for those HP target bulls. They are 6 MOA.

Two of my AR's wear KAC's that I bought cheap some years ago. Later to learn, supposedly stolen from the government. They are marked "USMC". I like the smallness of the aperture (light around it) as opposed to my Colt AR with its carry handle sight. The latter is just about useless for my aging eyes.

I got my first pair of irons for my ar after my son retired from the Navy.

Have no idea what brand or who made them but they do their job.

I do have another rear sight that has yardage marks on it in white ink.

scuttle on the line says often with ap fronts you go bigger than you would ever think... Dunno, I liked smaller but I wasn't shooting them very often.

Did a lot with old red field sights on a 22 trying to shoot the A36 target IIRC to learn NPA better...

I havent measured, but somewhere around 30". If i were to guess. Whatever it is, its very comfortable and easy to get behind. In all, im pretty happy with the sights. Also, the rear peep is removable and interchangeable. With it removed, it allows for quicker target acquisition, but is less precise. For a SHTF situation it would work fine. I was watching a video on these sights and guys were getting on targets almost as fast and just as accurately as a red dot. Of course red dots are better in low light, but these work well, for what they are. I also believe they were designed for 3 gun competition. The sizes of aperatures im using are more for precision, rather than speed.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. It looks like you are shooting pretty well with them, so the front ap can't be too far off for you.

Thanks buddy. There is definitely room for improvement on my abilities. Keep in mind im also shooting weak side (right handed) because my right eye is better. Sometimes i feel like i have to concentrate more, than when im shooting southpaw. I think in the hands of a better shooter, these sights would do just as well as a magnified optic.

NO NO NO. You can't do anything almost as good with irons as you can with a red dot. LOL.

To be honest the RMRs on our Glocks I sometimes have a hard time finding the dot on spur of the moment. Bothers me a bit since they are our bear guns. But I'm getting used to it. New grip frame on the Glock from Lone Wolf IIRC seems to have made it a bit easier to see them. And taller suppressor sights now help that aquistion. I had a bit taller on to be able to barely shoot irons with the RMR on, and gave up, decided to try the suppressor height and I"m good with that theory now. LOL.

Cats azz to me is always adjustable rear just dial it in, and adjustable front, just dial it in. But not cheap and probably not rugged at all.

On service rifle we carried different size screw in rear with hoods to match lighting conditions as needed, 3 sizes were all we really needed. And of course colored lenses in the glasses for different lighting, again 3. Clear, light orange and light green.

Remember the way you shoot optics on a proven gun, you can come really close with irons so you know its not your form so to speak. Or the gun. Thats a huge plus to me, but I'd be shooting my most accurate gun not the least FWIW. I forget where this one falls accuracy wise.

This rifle shoots 1.1 moa consistently with the 69gr sierra load. I think i posted a pic of one of the targets i shot when scoped, in the black rifle challenge. Again, this rifle is one ive considered selling quite a few times. Even listed it on a different local site. Like i said, im going to start working on a consistent sub moa load for this rifle. It may just happen with the 75gr hornady bthp's i just bought. It actually really likes the 77TMK loads ive tried. Im definitely not out to win any national matches with this set-up, but i think i'll be able to put a little hurting on the local competition. You'll see improvement over time buddy. The 100-5x was a little sloppy, but still good enough for around here. Also, i intend to beat your score on the black rifle challenge, so you better pull ol bessie out and start practicing with her... keep in mind i already beat your 99-3x score..

Cool. Sounds like fun. And if the gun shoots 1.1 with scope, then 1.2 with irons won't be bad!

Me, you have me beat hands down. I have time to type. Just no time to shoot.

And now I get the unexpected call need to be in AK for guaranteed paycheck in a month appx. Will pay for my quarantine time etc... don't want to miss that. And I"m not even close to done with the 284 load playing.. in fact I won't get there now. Got to tied up in carpentry type stuff for folks to pay some bills... Gotta fast track the 284, the 458 going to have to be good enough as is around 1.5 inches at 100.

Yep, excuses excuses excuses. Plus I'm going to use more shooting time to rebuild my 400,500 and 600 yard benches and retop our moveable 25 yard bench hopefully before I leave.

Now who knows.. if I had time to take irons to AK, I might be getting paid to sit around... that would suck. LOL

Damn, you sound busy!!! Good luck with all your projects.

Here's a little update on these Ultradyne C4 sights I recently bought. Some here may get a kick out of these little flip up iron back up sights. I know I'm liking them. They are different for sure, but I wish there was more of a fine micrometer dial for windage and elevation on the rear sight. But, nevertheless, these things are made for a purpose. That purpose is to precisely hit objects out to 600 yards with an iron sight. The graduation dial on the rear sight is set up for 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 550 and 600 yards with the use of military ball ammo (55gr.). Not really my cup of tea, as I don't shoot ball ammo in any of my rifles. However, I plan on using these sights in our local AR matches. I have them dialed in for 100 yards, as that is what we will be shooting at my club. Today when my buddy and I first got to the range, it was lightly sprinkling on us, but it looked like it was going to start getting better. The wind had died down and we set up our targets. There for a while the sun even came out. My buddy was getting his Ruger predator 6.5 cm dialed in with some handloads I loaded for him, and also a savage predator 22-250. So, the first target I shot was to see if the sights had moved from me flipping them up and down. As you can see, it looks like they didn't move at all, as the other day I had adjusted for the wind I was getting and since it was calm now, the poi had shifted to the right. That's to be expected. I was very pleased to see that there was not much of a change in the vertical placement of the shots either... Here's target #1 from today:


Now, since it was looking like it was going to be nice for the rest of the time, I stapled up another target. Keep in mind, I'm stapling these targets over the black rifle/moa all day long challenge target because with irons, you need a good solid target to focus on at 100 yards. Don't fool yourself into thinking I can see that little orange dot I put on those targets when they are set up at 100 yards and I'm looking downrange with iron sights. Like rost said in one of his posts, you need a bigger aiming point for irons and 79s suggested the mr31 target for a 100 yards. That is just a reduced down 600 yard target. These targets I use are basically the same dimension, only a slightly larger black bulls eye than the NRA mr 31 target 79s uses... So, I shot 4 shots, then a member came over from the pistol range to see if we had any extra target stands and to bs for a little while. During this time (approx. 15 minutes), the weather started taking a turn for the worse again. The rain came in and the wind picked up bigtime... After I was done talking to one of the members of the club, I proceeded to try and finish off my last 6 shots. I looked downrange and my target stand had blown over. It generally takes quite a bit to blow my heavy stand over, so I unload and walk down range in the rain. I told my buddy that my next 6 shots are going to be chidt because of this weather. No chance in hell of beating rost's score in the black rifle challenge!!!! Damn, I was pizzed, especially when I saw my first 4 shots:



Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that I adjusted my sights over 2 clicks to the left before shooting these 4 shots.....



There will be a day when its not raining like a cow pizzing on a flat rock and when the wind isn't howling like a siren... Sights are performing flawlessly so far. I think I'm going to like them... Oh, I'm running out of 69gr sierra's too. Good thing I ordered 1000 75gr Hornady BTHP bullets the other day from midsouth.... I'll be throwing my Burris ar556 scope back on this Noveske and working on a sub moa load for it, then I should be in the money with these irons...

Here you go

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/sierra-224-22-69-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail-matchking/

Thanks buddy. I have a couple hundy loaded up, but im hoping the 75gr hornadies prove to be better shooters. They will be better at longer range anyhow..

Gonna be tough to beat those 69s!

Dang tyrone, don't say that buddy:




They were my go to bullet, then I tried the 73gr eld match bullets, then the 77TMK. Both of those bullets seem to shoot better than the 69's in my other rifles. The Noveske always seemed to like the 69's better than the other rifles did. However, after shooting a few AR's side by side and working on loads with the 77TMK, the Noveske surprised me and turned is the best groups of the 3 rifles. I'll end up giving those 75gr Hornady BTHP match bullets a try. It seems like a lot of guys like them. They are $75.00/500, so they are quite a bit cheaper than the sierra's... The link John sent me says the sierra's are $116.24. That's a $41.00 dollar difference and $82.00 difference if I would have ordered 1000 sierra's... We'll see, hopefully they shoot about the same. If not, I'll post up my experience on the other thread 75gr vs 77gr . Because what I've been seeing is the 77TMK trumps everything I've been shooting lately. And that is at 100 yards. Stretch that out to 5-600 and the TMK should really shine.. as should the 75gr Hornady match bullet...

Really?! Those 69s have shot very well for me. I think only 52s have shot better for me in absolute grouping ability. Just goes to show, every barrel has it's preferences. And it may just show how few times I shoot for group.

Half the fun is in trying different loads!

Yeah, but most of the fun is after the load is developed... I agree with you on the 69's. They are hard to beat. Probably not the best bullet for 100 yard shooting, as sometimes the old flat based match bullets do better. Or at least they did in my bolt guns. I'm still a newbie to these AR black rifles though, so keep that in mind... I figure with a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 twist, they are better suited to a heavier bullet than my bolt actions that have had 1 in 12 and 1 in 9 twist barrels..

52/53s might surprise you out of a 7 twist. They shoot VERY well.

I have a sample of the 77TMKs.
Where do you suggest I start? Krieger with a CLE chamber.

Thanks Tyrone. I may at some point give them a try. I have a couple hundred of those laying around..

Personally I'd run AR comp. I like those CLE chambers, but they run faster than others, so you don't have to use as much powder. I'm still experimenting with the TMK's as well, but have noticed they shoot better at slower speeds. Good if you are only shooting 100 yard practice, but I don't know what they do further out. I know there are a lot of us that have been messing with the 77TMK lately. 79s, Beretzs, and some others. My first impression was damn these bullets fly straight:


That was marked "load #2", so in case you are wondering what load #2 is, here goes:


I was shooting in a downpour that day, so I couldn't bring my chrono out. Later I was told by MontanaMan that my speeds may be kind of slow and I should check them and he was right. Running right around 2,550 fps average in that new barrel. That is the reason I started experimenting with these TMK's in 3 of my other AR's and a Savage bolt gun. Just from preliminary load work up, I was able to hit 2744 avg with AR comp in my new WW barrel with CLE chamber, but accuracy was not where I wanted it (1.5 moa for 10 shots). That was with 22.3gr of powder. So a good starting point would be where you feel most comfrotable with as far as velocity. I'm running 20" tubes on my AR's, but that range in velocity is 2,550 fps with 20.5gr of AR comp up to 2744 with 22.3gr of ar comp. Your barrel may be a little slower, if it is shorter...

Nice start for irons!!

Thanks rost. I shot the other day for a little bit. I posted the target pics in the other thread. Shot a sloppy score of 100-7x at around 1.7 moa and then a 100-6x with a group size of 1.2 moa. I was at the range more to check my 22 target rifles for a rimfire match ill shoot this Saturday

I saw that too I think, but I'm usually flying by at a glance. Forgot where it was.

Total of 200 and 13 would not be bad off slings and irons. If I had more than 12x it was a good day for sure.

I'll post those targets here, since those sights are the topic of this thread. They seem to be doing great rost:


I'm not really thrilled with breaking the 10 ring, but the wind was so inconsistent that it was making my head spin.. I barely snuck by with that 100. Group size sucked:


Then I shot a 100-6x that I wished would have been more centered:

That shot did break the 10 ring, just barely.... Group size at 1.2 moa... That's more like what I'm wanting, but with a better score.. Its hard to get both sometimes...

One of the best scores I ever shot was with 77gr TMK at the 600yd line.

Shoot a better score with the 75 SMK, so I don't feel bad about buying 1000 of them. Plus, that's a big money saver at $82.00/1000 cheaper.. I do like the 77TMK though. It seems to be a pretty easy bullet to get to shoot well..

I know these Ultradyne sights are a little spendy, but they are made to last. Now, I've flipped these things up and down and have been to the range a few times with them now and can testify that they are an exceptional sighting system. If any of you are looking for a more precise aiming system for your AR rifles, these might be worth checking out. Here are a few more targets I shot last weekend. As of right now, I shot a top score on the black rifle challenge with these back up iron sights, so that is a testimony to how well they work. As I've stated before, this Noveske is my least accurate ar15, but the rifle gets the job done:








If any of you guys have sights that perform as well, post up them pics.. Thanks..

Dammit rost, these sights just perfom buddy. I think you owe me a beer, as they are much more reliable than a Leupold.. Ha ha.. Shot these yesterday. Finally got some good shooting weather, so I had to take advantage of it:






I didn't have to adjust these sights at all yesterday. Just flipped them up, after I was done with some load development where I fired at least 100 rounds through the rifle and fired off these 2 groups. After that, I packed up my chidt and went home. Seeing how it proves out my earlier 1.24 moa standing in the black rifle challenge...



I don't think I showed a pic of the clearance under the scope, so here is how it looks with my Burris AR556 scope and Burris PEPR mount:



Pretty slick BUIS system, and they seem to be "precise" enough for my use..

Good info,Lawrence

Thanks, I was hoping someone found this thread useful. They actually turned a rifle I was going to sell, into a rifle I really enjoy shooting now..

Know very little about current generation AR’s, what with all my experience with the M16 I’m somewhat baffled this would work so well. Were I to purchase a new one it would NEVER wear a scope.

These may be something to look into Dan. I'm very impressed with these sights. The only complaint I have is you do most of your fine tune adjustment on the front sight. It works great, but I don't like messing around with the muzzle end of the gun to adjust the sights. I had a good conversation with one of the guys at Ultradyne and asked if they could design a rear sight with a micrometer adjustment, more like a target 22 has. To me, this would be the catz azz, since I shoot more paper competitions than steel targets. These sights are awesome as far as their intended purpose, but I threw out the idea that maybe they needed to offer a more precision adjustable rear sight. This was his response:
Great information, we appreciate all of the comments. Our customers definitely help us design better products!!

Now, I can adjust the sights to hit precisely where I'm aiming, but I'd rather be doing that with the rear... More like these rifles:






I need to get out and shoot this "new to me" Savage MKI FVT 22lr to see how she does in her new stock I installed yesterday..

I don't know anything about the old AR rifles either, but I remember hearing rost say that the good shooters could hold well under moa with iron sights. I've recently watched videos on the old Colt pre ban match rifles in the 20" HBAR configuration and was not impressed in the least by the accuracy I've seen. I've shot a Bushmaster match rifle, similar to what they used at camp perry alongside the Colt HBAR and that rifle was pretty impressive. It had a rear aperature, but heavy front post. Not precise as far as I'm concerned, but I did turn in some 1.5 moa targets that scored around 99 each time. This was with a rifle I was not familiar with and with my handloads. The rifle also weighed 14 pounds with lead weighing down the butt and forend of the rifle. Given those sights and these Ultradynes, I'd choose the Ultradynes. Check out the black rifle challenge, I believe I shot 3 better scores (1.31 MOA, 1.24 MOA and most recently 1.167 MOA) than rost did and he is no slouch of a shooter. Even though he says he's rusty... These "irons" have proven themselves to me, for repeatability and precision. I haven't had them long enough to know how rugged they are, but they are made of steel and seem to be pretty robust. Time will tell on that though..

For the sake of clarity, and my post above was not,...

First time I fired the M16 was in combat. When I got back to the states the Army decided it was a good opportunity to get me qualified with the gun. So I followed orders and showed up at the range. My previous qualification had been in Basic with a M14 which was the 2d CF rifle I'd ever shot. They gave me a Marksman pin for that effort. Quals with the -16 included silhouettes at 25, 100 and 300 meters. They gave me an Expert badge for that effort The old school aperture sight worked just dandy as far as I'm concerned. Dunno why it should present otherwise to new kids on the block.

They also let me shoot my newish RSB and gave me an expert ticket for that one too. Target was at 50 meters. My eyes were a bit better back then, but I still get good mileage with peeps.




Put a tang sight on this before shooting the target below.

Very nice buddy. I think your next challenge should be the Black Rifle challenge find you a good AR with iron sights see if you can beat rosts score. In your other thread you were talking about trying something different. That would be something different

D Dan might like this. I recently put my savage mk1 FVT into a boyds laminate:





That's a 1/2" x-ring^^^^

Now down to brass tacks. The AR (Gen 1 Noveske) is shooting very consistently. I noticed my Geiselle SSAE gets a little gritty after a while. Never notice that chidt with my RRA's. In all, I'm pretty damn happy and impressed with both the rifle and the sighting system. I'd buy these sights again, even though the price is a little high. You get a lot for your money. IMHO:

From the other day of shooting:




I'm shooting consistently into the 1.2 MOA realm with this set-up. I'm thinking with the right ammo, it would do better... Next Saturday my club is having an AR shoot. Some guys from the big city are bringing their souped up AR's to play with. It should be quite interesting... One member from Vancouver brought up a speed match, so I checked to see how fast I could get 10 shots centered up on the target and it took 11.4 seconds for a score of 100-8x with my Northtech Defense. Scoped rifle, of course. And that is with ammo that only shoots .9 MOA (as per the black rifle challenge rules). With the load it likes, it shoots into the .7's...

Hey BSA...next time you're tempted to sell that AR, give a little thought to the idea of just rebarreling it. I'll betcha that would bring it into the sub-MOA realm.

Myself, I only have BUIS on our two house guns (my hunting ARs have no BUIS on them). Primary sights on these are Leupold Prismatics with illumination, which I selected because of the etched reticle in order to be free of dependence upon batteries. They work well and I do not expect a failure, but they are attached via QD mounts and can be easily removed. I did not spend a lot of money on the BUIS, just went with Guntech when I saw a sale on them. I think if my vision (and my wife's) was better I might have opted for something a little better, but there's the vision issue as well as the extremely low likelihood of ever being used. One thing I like about them is I can easily fit them with Trijicons, which I may or may not do.

My use for these guns is totally different so my perspective is completely different too, but I think it offers an opportunity to expand the discussion a little.

Thanks for the comments RiverRider. As for the barrel, I will leave it on there for a while. Set up in this fashion, it works very well for my needs. I'll see if I get my azz handed to me in the shoot next saturday though. If that happens, I may re-think that. We may have some heavy hitters come from Portland and Vancouver. Hell, If I could get a 6mm ARC barrel exactly like this Noveske barrel, I may consider changing it out. I'd keep it set up exactly the way this one is though: using these Ultradyne BUIS and my Burris AR556 4.5-14x42 combo.. Like I told rost, if I can maintain 1.1-1.2 moa and score 100-8x average, I'd be happy as hell. As it is, this rifle has been shooting just about that good. The other day, I was testing some loads and got a little better accuracy with R-P brass vs. FC brass, so I may just switch over to R-P in this rifle. I have 1500 pcs primed and ready to load, so I'm good to go there. I also burned up about 300 rounds of 223 that day with 2 other rifles, trying to find a good load for that 75gr Hornady BTHP match bullet.

The 6 ARC is a great idea. But unless you feel like you gotta have factory brass and dies the 6mm AR / 6mm Predator / .243 LBC has just a tad bit more to offer due to case capacity. It really doesn't amount to a hill of beans, though. I bet you'd really like it.

In truth, I don't think the barrel you have on there shoots bad at all.

Thanks riverrider. I currently have a 6WOA that is ballistically superior to the new ARC, if it were twisted right and had better support from WOA. As it is, you dont have a good selection of dies, brass, or load data. Hence the reason the 6mm ARC will ultimately be the demise of some of these similar "better" wildcat cartridges.

Sounds like you are ready for NRA high power or NRA mid range prone at 600yds or XTC.. Or NRA- AR tactical in midrange prone.. Our club has the go for its first 600yd shoot of the yr this Tuesday.. looks like I found the sweet spot for the 75gr eld-m all shooting from the 600yd is slowfire ie single feed.. I finally had to clean my barrel when accuracy fell off with 77 tmk. Been about 500 rds since I gave it a good scrub with wipeout.

I probably need to scrub mine real well too. Thats cool about them opening your club up for the shoots again. I went back to the old tried and true 73gr ELD-M myself, along with the 69gr SMK. I'll go back to the 77TMK one of these days, and keep working on the 75 Hornady match bullets. I was getting some weird groups with AA2520, but groups were fairly consistent with AR comp. Still haven't fine tuned anything yet though.

My AR like 23.5gr ARcomp with cci 400 primer and 77 tmk seated at 2.260.. Also try rem 7 1/2 if you have them.. Of course work up to that load as well..

Thanks J. Good advice. I've been looking for your favorite WSR primer as well as more BR4's (still don't know how I burned through 5,000 in a year and a half?), and those remington 7 1/2 primers, but small rifle primers are hard to find right now. I still have about 5,000 CCI 400's. I also ran across a brick of CCI 41's the other day. I damned near bought those to try out, since they are made for AR's. How do those compare to the CCI 400's and BR 4 primers for accuracy? I saw those at a small shop that gets overlooked. I scored 4 pounds of AR comp there. It had been there for a while, there was a light coat of dust on the top of the containers.. I like scores like that..

Man WSR are hard to find, I’m down to 500 of them.. but looks like cci 400 are my new favorite but I’m running low on them too lol. Those cci 41 are the same primer as the cci 450. Just marketing gimmick.. far as the cci sr br and cci 400 i haven’t seen anything twsl difference I will stick with $36 for a 1k versus $60 for 1K

Thanks buddy. It was funny the other day, I was testing some primers and different cases, it turned out I got better accuracy from the CCI 400 and R-P brass, but that is likely because of a slightly different pressure change due to the thickness of the brass. I went to Cabela's and sportsman's yesterday and no luck finding any good primers. Good thing I have a few left. I did, however, pick up a box of 500 69gr SMK's to load up for next saturday..I'll be running my Northtech defense and the iron sight Noveske. One of the guys from Vancouver wants to do a "speed shoot", so I got the timer out to see how quick I could get 10 shots downrange and still maintain a 100 for score and it was right at 11.4-12.6 seconds... He considers 60 seconds a "speed shoot" course of fire. I'm going to suggest we shoot our 10 shots in 15 seconds.. To me that is more along the lines of a fast course of fire.. If you can't keep them all in the 10 ring in 15 seconds or quicker, you might as well take up golf..

Rapid fire in the NRA or CMP rules is pretty fun, you get 60 seconds if you are shooting in the sitting position and 70 if you shoot in the prone. Both are done shooting with a sling and a mag change.. That’s a true “speed shoot” and if using CMP rules you start from standing position with 2rd magazine inserted, bolt closed on empty chamber. NRA rules pretty much the same. Time starts when they say targets up. Same command are giving at reduced yardage matches..

Went out today and almost busted MOA's balls with the iron sight Noveske:







The Northtech is ready for Saturday as well:


That's with the 69gr SMK load the Noveske likes. Averaged 100-9x and .937 moa. It does better with the 73 ELD match load...