I’ve been reloading for close to 40 yrs. and loading for numerous 223’s over the years. But none were semi-autos or AR’s. Weelll, I just got an AR. I understand that the basics are the same, but my question concerns crimping. I’ve talked to a couple of folks who reload for AR’s......one says he never crimps but maintains a tight bullet to neck fit. The other uses bullets that allow him to roll crimp into the cannelure. I thought maybe some of you guys might have some insite as to how I should approach crimping. Roll crimp, taper crimp, or no crimp? I also bought a few PMags which all seem to measure 2.25 inside max so how short is my max OAL to feed well in plastic magazines? Thanks in advance for your help.
No crimp.
2.25, or 2.255 oal. If you use metal ASC mags you can go to 2.3"
I’ve been reloading for close to 40 yrs. and loading for numerous 223’s over the years. But none were semi-autos or AR’s. Weelll, I just got an AR. I understand that the basics are the same, but my question concerns crimping. I’ve talked to a couple of folks who reload for AR’s......one says he never crimps but maintains a tight bullet to neck fit. The other uses bullets that allow him to roll crimp into the cannelure. I thought maybe some of you guys might have some insite as to how I should approach crimping. Roll crimp, taper crimp, or no crimp? I also bought a few PMags which all seem to measure 2.25 inside max so how short is my max OAL to feed well in plastic magazines? Thanks in advance for you help.
I set my seater to put a slight crimp on the bullet. That also helps with reducing TIR. Something a lot of guys don't understand. A Pmag is generally 2.260" on the inside. So most of us run our OAL to somewhere around 2.250-2.255" to allow for reliable feeding and loading of the mags.
No crimp.
2.25, or 2.255 oal. If you use metal ASC mags you can go to 2.3"
Same here.
This is pretty much the standard.
just for s&g's i bought one of the Lee factory crimp dies to try out. done correctly it took 3/4 inch off my groups. ymmv
just for s&g's i bought one of the Lee factory crimp dies to try out. done correctly it took 3/4 inch off my groups. ymmv
I suspect you had either a runout or neck tension problem prior to crimping.
most likely tension. i have that problem alot
I use the crimp option on an RCBS AR15 seater die. It is a taper crimp that has the roll crimp at the end of a longer taper just incase your case length is not consistant. (Supposedly) It seems to work better with fewer crushed shoulders than a standard die with a roll crimp. But, to be consistent, you need to get your cases as close to the same lenght as you can. I have also used a Lee crimp die and that works well as long as you are not power crimping them. They are nice when your cases are not consistently the same lenght.
kwg
just for s&g's i bought one of the Lee factory crimp dies to try out. done correctly it took 3/4 inch off my groups. ymmv
My mileage varied. My results were directly opposite.
No crimp. Also bump the shoulders a bit more than you would with a bolt rifle, 0.003 is good.
No crimp.
Folks that shoot a tighter group with a crimp VS. no crimp, most likely have neck tension variance. By crimping, it helps to equalize the round to round release tension. Annealing regularly can help equalize release tension. Keeping cases sorted by brand and number of times reloaded can also help.
"I set my seater to put a slight crimp on the bullet. That also helps with reducing TIR. Something a lot of guys don't understand. A Pmag is generally 2.260" on the inside. So most of us run our OAL to somewhere around 2.250-2.255" to allow for reliable feeding and loading of the mags." [/quote]
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Thanks
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Total Indicator Runout.
No.
Anything to the right of the 100ths place in overall length is irrelevant.
Small base dies are rarely needed and usually counterproductive. AR chambers are usually rather loose.
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Total Indicator Runout.
No.
Anything to the right of the 100ths place in overall length is irrelevant.
Yes sir. Total indicatior reading, but for run-out. I like straight ammo. It tends to shoot better than crooked chidt. Im running small base dies for my CLE chambers. Get good accuracy and good enough longevity out of my brass. Not that im too concerned about it. Brass is free around here.
I think a Lee factory crimp die is a good tool to use on ammo that's going to be fired in an auto loading rifle.
One of the first things I did to insure reliability of the ammo I handload was to buy a Dillon case gauge. My brass has been shot thru many different chambers but after it is resized now and it gauges I know it will chamber and lock up . If a case fails to gauge the first time I will try to resize it again if it then gauges fine , if it don't it goes in the recycle bucket I won't even save it for the bolt guns. Consistancy when loading for AR's counts alot to insure reliability. MB
I have never crimped ammo for my AR's and never had a problem, also have never needed small-base dies.
I have to express some curiosity as to how roll crimping can reduce total indicated runout??
Thanks guys for the feedback. I think I’ll go with “no crimp”. If I have a problem, I’ll try the factory crimp die then. Looks like an OAL of 2.25” or less should be good to go. Will probably go 2.24” and see how that works. Not trying for benchrest accuracy, just something that works well if they start coming over the wall, so to speak! Thanks again.
I'm with Bristoe on this one.
I’ve loaded 1000s for ARs, never crimped a one. And they work perfectly.
I just put forty rounds of 62 gr Fusions thru two 20 round PMAGs, no crimp, and no problem. Fired slow for groups, and three to four round bursts for checking function. Looks like no-crimp here. Thanks to all.
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Total Indicator Runout.
No.
Anything to the right of the 100ths place in overall length is irrelevant.
Yes sir. Total indicatior reading, but for run-out. I like straight ammo. It tends to shoot better than crooked chidt. Im running small base dies for my CLE chambers. Get good accuracy and good enough longevity out of my brass. Not that im too concerned about it. Brass is free around here.
If adding crimp reduces your indicated runout, you probably have something funky going on elsewhere in the loading process. Obviously we all like straight ammo for accuracy, but crimping isn't usually necessary or helpful.
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Total Indicator Runout.
No.
Anything to the right of the 100ths place in overall length is irrelevant.
Yes sir. Total indicatior reading, but for run-out. I like straight ammo. It tends to shoot better than crooked chidt. Im running small base dies for my CLE chambers. Get good accuracy and good enough longevity out of my brass. Not that im too concerned about it. Brass is free around here.
If adding crimp reduces your indicated runout, you probably have something funky going on elsewhere in the loading process. Obviously we all like straight ammo for accuracy, but crimping isn't usually necessary or helpful.
You are a fu cking idiot. That is an old trick to reduce run-out. It's also the way I set all of my dies and I get far better accuracy than most do here. How do you fare at shooting and accuracy? Until you can start proving you know what you are talking about, I'd suggest you shut the fu ck up.
Yowser this escalated fast..
Wow! Evidently a couple of you guys don’t like each other!
Yowser this escalated fast..
BSA can be a little grumpy from time to time.
I suspect he just needs some range time to decompress.
Most of us could probably use some more range time.
I can't say I understand how crimping would reduce runout, nor do I recall having heard of it being a trick to do so. Maybe my memory is going.
I can see how if everything is just right it wouldn't harm runout.
One more thing to test ...
Wow! Evidently a couple of you guys don’t like each other!
Never had any problem with him before, but apparently do now, I guess?
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Total Indicator Runout.
No.
Anything to the right of the 100ths place in overall length is irrelevant.
Yes sir. Total indicatior reading, but for run-out. I like straight ammo. It tends to shoot better than crooked chidt. Im running small base dies for my CLE chambers. Get good accuracy and good enough longevity out of my brass. Not that im too concerned about it. Brass is free around here.
If adding crimp reduces your indicated runout, you probably have something funky going on elsewhere in the loading process. Obviously we all like straight ammo for accuracy, but crimping isn't usually necessary or helpful.
You are a fu cking idiot. That is an old trick to reduce run-out. It's also the way I set all of my dies and I get far better accuracy than most do here. How do you fare at shooting and accuracy? Until you can start proving you know what you are talking about, I'd suggest you shut the fu ck up.
Calm down Francis. That sure seems like a lot of anger to put into something so minor as crimping; maybe it's really about your need to prove that you're the best person here all the time?
If you can set that aside for a minute, could you explain how/why adding crimp straightens out a crooked round? Show us your runout numbers and explain what the mechanism is that straightens out the rounds when you crimp.
I could picture maybe if you've got a sticky expander ball pulling necks out of alignment, that adding a crimp might push the neck back down into place. Not sure what other mechanism could be responsible for the straightening.
Never experienced that phenomenon myself, but maybe that's because I can't shoot, like most everyone else here.
I see the village idiot is at it again.
Want to see him get really twisted? Ask him to prove up on all the elk he claims to kill.
Crickets.
If you can set that aside for a minute, could you explain how/why adding crimp straightens out a crooked round? Show us your runout numbers and explain what the mechanism is that straightens out the rounds when you crimp.
I could picture maybe if you've got a sticky expander ball pulling necks out of alignment, that adding a crimp might push the neck back down into place. Not sure what other mechanism could be responsible for the straightening.
Never experienced that phenomenon myself, but maybe that's because I can't shoot, like most everyone else here.
Just checking back.
Crickets.
You are a fu cking idiot. That is an old trick to reduce run-out. It's also the way I set all of my dies and I get far better accuracy than most do here. How do you fare at shooting and accuracy? Until you can start proving you know what you are talking about, I'd suggest you shut the fu ck up.
If you can set that aside for a minute, could you explain how/why adding crimp straightens out a crooked round? Show us your runout numbers and explain what the mechanism is that straightens out the rounds when you crimp.
I could picture maybe if you've got a sticky expander ball pulling necks out of alignment, that adding a crimp might push the neck back down into place. Not sure what other mechanism could be responsible for the straightening.
Never experienced that phenomenon myself, but maybe that's because I can't shoot, like most everyone else here.
I'd like to know what's up too, but guessing he realized his tantrum was unfounded and isn't willing to explain or apologize. Too bad.
I'd like to know what's up too, but guessing he realized his tantrum was unfounded and isn't willing to explain or apologize. Too bad.
I think it can be attributed to ass holes colliding.
No crimp.
2.25, or 2.255 oal. If you use metal ASC mags you can go to 2.3"
Lastround,
This is your answer.
No crimp.
2.25, or 2.255 oal. If you use metal ASC mags you can go to 2.3"
Lastround,
This is your answer.
Thanks to all.
I'd like to know what's up too, but guessing he realized his tantrum was unfounded and isn't willing to explain or apologize. Too bad.
I think it can be attributed to ass holes colliding.
That's pretty damned funny.
I'd like to know what's up too, but guessing he realized his tantrum was unfounded and isn't willing to explain or apologize. Too bad.
I think it can be attributed to ass holes colliding.
Lol
Checking in again.
Crickets.
You are a fu cking idiot. That is an old trick to reduce run-out. It's also the way I set all of my dies and I get far better accuracy than most do here. How do you fare at shooting and accuracy? Until you can start proving you know what you are talking about, I'd suggest you shut the fu ck up.
If you can set that aside for a minute, could you explain how/why adding crimp straightens out a crooked round? Show us your runout numbers and explain what the mechanism is that straightens out the rounds when you crimp.
I could picture maybe if you've got a sticky expander ball pulling necks out of alignment, that adding a crimp might push the neck back down into place. Not sure what other mechanism could be responsible for the straightening.
Never experienced that phenomenon myself, but maybe that's because I can't shoot, like most everyone else here.
SLM,
I don’t think that trick is gonna get explained!
Pretty sure you’re right.
I’ll keep trying though.