I've got a dilemma. I have an old Winchester pump 12 ga. in 3 inch with full choke factory barrel.
To hunt geese with it, I need non-toxic ammo, but steel shot isn't safe for the full choke.
Bismuth shot costs $4/shell. What can I shoot in it affordably?

What do you want for it???

I faced the exact same dilemma a few years ago with a heavy duck model 12. I wasn't going to alter the choke, and couldn't afford a steady diet of botique shells. It was never going to replace my 870 anyway. I ended up selling it for a modest profit. I do miss it sometimes though. I think my model 12 itch would better be satisfied with an open choke 20 (or maybe a 16) for the uplands.

As far as what you can shoot, bismuth or heavy shot are about it. Looks like the price has come down though! Midway shows $1.60-$1.80 a round (though currently out of stock).

You could always repurpose it as a turkey gun and shoot lead.

Open up the choke and use it for what it was made for.....Unless it is pristine you will not diminish the value....

The Brits will upgrade an English or Italian best when necessary, but we are hesitant to do the same with a Model 12....Funny....

battue, so I have this correct, opening the choke on these older pumps will let one safely shoot steel??? I have a bunch, I would not mess with my heavy duck, but have a reworked model 12 in 2 3/4, a 31, 97, & some others.. I have thought of opening one of them to mod. or light mod. for upland shooting.. They are all 30 " full... Thanks..

battue, so I have this correct, opening the choke on these older pumps will let one safely shoot steel??? I have a bunch, I would not mess with my heavy duck, but have a reworked model 12 in 2 3/4, a 31, 97, & some others.. I have thought of opening one of them to mod. or light mod. for upland shooting.. They are all 30 " full... Thanks..

Open it up to IC which usually works fine with steel and it will be just as safe as a current barrel of the same constriction....Only thing I would be sure of is that whomever did the work, based the constriction on the step down from the barrel inside diameter. Some of the older guns had smaller insider diameters than todays offerings.

However, perhaps it would be wise to use regular steel velocity loads and not some of the super fast ones that are currently available. Nor would I say for one to use it with a SxS or O/U. Single barrels only....

It is often said that Remington states any barrel they made after 1950, that is fixed modified or less can be shot with steel no larger than 2's. However, I've never tried to verify that with Remington.

I kill more with better shells. I'd just get some Kent Bismuth and use it if patterned well.

That would be my first choice also....

Great advice from battue. I’d consider sending to Briley to have it opened up. They'll do you a great job. Briley can also thread the barrel for thin wall chokes, that are rated for steel. Opening the choke a bit would be easer.

Thanks for the advice, All.

It looks like Briley charges $95 for a choke job. That will pay for itself in a couple boxes of duck loads (steel vs. bismuth), so I may just do that.

I'd go with the "reamed to I/C" route.

I/C with steel is the same as MOD with lead and is fine for waterfowl.

I've had 2 of them, got rid of both, they are clunks compared to an 870. Honest the first thing you need to do is to run a couple of boxes of high brass loads thru it to see if it functions correctly and ejects easy. Go buy a couple of boxes of 3 3/4 de x 1 1/4 oz express type loads and shoot them on hand trap and doing doubles too. If some previous owner has cleaned the chamber without enlarging the chamber extension ring the same time you will have hard extraction because the hull has expanded out past the diameter of the chamber ext ring. Low brass doesn't allways show you this. You need to know if it's a RELIABLE shooter before you spend money on choke work. MB

I have two Heavy Duck Model 12s and they run circles around any 870. The quality of workmanship is superior
for hunting use. Use Kent or other quality Hevi-shot. This combination works on geese quite well, judging from my freezer.

If you think you have a challenge-try shooting waterfowl with an AH Fox Super Fox 3 inch; or an LC Smith Long Range 3 in SXS. Hevi-shot or Bismuth.
I have had no problems but use them for turkeys also.

I have two Heavy Duck Model 12s and they run circles around any 870. The quality of workmanship is superior
for hunting use. Use Kent or other quality Hevi-shot. This combination works on geese quite well, judging from my freezer.

If you think you have a challenge-try shooting waterfowl with an AH Fox Super Fox 3 inch; or an LC Smith Long Range 3 in SXS. Hevi-shot or Bismuth.
I have had no problems but use them for turkeys also.

No doubt...take the two apart and lay the pieces side by side, and the superior quality of the Model 12 will be obvious.

However, the 870 has proven itself over time, and was almost genius in making a reliable pump for the least amount. But it falls short of the Model 12.

I have several model 12’s and more 870’s.. The 870’s just shoot.. Thousands and thousands of rounds.. I think it has been in production far longer than the model 12.. My heavy duck, is a great shooter, but it has had problems functioning.. I took it to a top gunsmith and he corrected the problem.. But he told me the 12 has more moving parts and therefore harder to keep everything in tune.. As much as I love my old pumps, the 870’s would be the last to go.. I have never seen a model 12 shoot rings around any 870...

WCH,
No reasonable person can deny how good the 870 is.....It was so good that it ended the the production of the Model 12. Based on how much it cost to make each one. The Model 12 was essentially a had fitted shotgun made from machined parts. While Remington went "modern" and figured out how to make assembly line machines stamp out parts that could be made to fit in almost any other 870. Neither wins the reliability race over the other. However, the Model 12 wins the race when it comes to knowing you have an essentially handcrafted shotgun.

The rest of the story:

https://calibremag.ca/remington-870-vs-winchester-model-12/

If I’m wingshooting with a pump, it better have some class and craftsmanship or something..,, usually eliminates the 870.
You shouldn’t be afraid to open the choke on that M12, IMO.....I wouldn’t sweat it, done right. Also, might just order some Kent TM (not bismuth), when you can find a deal, and it’ll love that full choke. How much do you intend to shoot it, anyway?

My point is and was very simple. Check the m12 with high brass loads before you spend dime one doing custom work on it that will hurt the collector value even if it shoots better. If it does not function correctly because of a barrel chamber that is larger than the chamber extension ring YOU HAVE A MAJOR problem that needs correction first. I know what I'm talking about. MB

I must have missed your post on that, since I’ve never even heard of that...until now. Maybe your terminology is off, but sounds like your saying it’s possible for the barrel (which fits INSIDE the chamber extension ring) to be bigger than the ring it fits inside? Anyhoo, I’ve never had any issue like that with M12s UNLESS parts/barrels had been replaced and mismatched to different guns.

Hh, the chamber extension ring is in the receiver , the end of the barrel butts up to it when you place the barrel assembly in the receiver and turn it to lock it up. So there is a circumferential seam about a 1/4" in frt of the bolt face, this not a problem unless someone takes the gun down and starts polishing the barrel chamber with abrasives too much. It only takes a.001 or .002" larger in the barrel chamber than the ext ring to cause the problem I was referring to. When the high brass shells are fired the brass expands out larger diameter than the chamber extension ring in the receiver this what makes for hard extraction or plain having the hulls hang up. Someone who has owned a m12 for a long time and did his cleaning from the muzzle very rarely would have this problem. But cleaning from the chamber end is a bad move. I could not feel the seam with my finger nail but the problem was still there on the last 2 m12's I bought damned if I buy another. MB

One would have to make a job of it....clean away from the breech, it sure will not happen with a patch or soft bronze brush.

I picked up a M12 heavy duck a couple years ago that the previous owner cut the poly choke off and the vent rib barrel was around 21”. I sent it to Mike Orlen (sp?) to be fitted for chokes. He had a super fast return time and I took a very nice gobbler with it that same year. I would recommend him to anyone.

Cost for Bismuth is now closer to $2 than $4 and you will save the cost of those steel loads used to finish off wounded birds.

You can take a lot of geese with a box of Kent Bismuth.

* I’m not saying it didn’t happen/or you aren’t having this issue.
However, that sounds like some jack leg, card shooter, over bore mishap. Most brass has FAR more variance than that, and most any repeater will overcome a couple of thousandths brass malformity. It’s be hard to fathom removing the steel ONLY in part of the chamber, to a point of function issue, without power tools and stones or cutters, but that’s just what I’ve seen. While I don’t consider myself an M12 ‘expert’, in 40 years of owning, tinkering with, and being around M12s, I’ve never heard of that.

As mentioned that wouldn’t have happened from routine cleaning from the chamber end. Even if one cleaned it daily. Thousands of explosions in chambers, with the head expanding and contracting against the chamber wall doesn’t cause it. Normal cleaning from the breech certainly isn’t going to.

However, have seen some of the more recent shells that don’t use brass heads stick in pumps. Have had it happen with some of the economy grade Winchester’s. Use brass head shells and it no longer happens.

Late breaking update:

I just contacted Tom Roster, the guru of no-tox loads for wing shooting, and asked him directly if I was better off shooting bismuth, opening the choke, or having a "steel safe" choke installed by Briley in this original Winchester Heavy Duck.

He said "none of the above." Just shoot steel or Hevi-shot through the factory full choke, just taking care to not use shot larger than BB or faster than 1400 fps. I was sure surprised!

Regards to all,

GC

Interesting and coming from him I have little doubt he is correct.
However, I think more than a few will be doubters.

Myself, I would take his word to be fact.

I am more versed on Auto 5s, and I’ve done the same with many Belgian, full choke guns and steel, with zero issues. Usually #3s or smaller. Good to know, though.

Tag

Remington says #1 or smaller in older pre rem choke 870 or 1100's I like my A-5 Belgians to much to ever run any size steel in them and only run it in my Jap A-5 Sweet when I have to. A friend of mine did seminars with roster for awhile and used big steel BB in his Ithaca o/u it ring bulged his bottom barrel ruining the gun you all can do whatever you like they are your guns. I might add that the full choke in a m12 duck is around .694" in constriction both mine were. They shoot 7/8 and 1 oz trap loads great but for today's ammo are really over choked. MB

I use my Model 12 Heavy. Duck for turkey hunting. It works great.

FWIW, while ‘tighter’, the M12s do have a different style of choke with longer parallel sections and other stats I don’t recall, that may mitigate some issues. Not sure

I wouldn't put thin walls in. I would shoot Bismuth. I believe Tom for sure. My guess is that the steel will just have a longer shot string. Personally I would open it up fixed IC and be done with it. That way it is good all around for any shooting I would want to do with it.

load and shoot whatever you want in it.. if it is too tight it will open to what it should be buy its self.. I have owned m 12s all my life and never had any problem with them. still have one...

Very interesting. I'd never heard this.

I have a couple of cases of No 4 buck for emergencies, and they really pattern well in the Model 12 Heavy Duck. Nothing larger recommended.
The No 4 buck is also the FBI choice in their shotguns. I have an early Model 12 riot gun from my Federal Law enforcement days and it is cyl bore-
handling all buck shot sizes. Own 5 Model 12 Winchesters, so the chance of accepting a lesser grade of pump shotgun is null and void.
Of course, nothing will outshoot my SuperFox if it flies or gobbles beyond 50 yards.

450, do you know a good source for locating Fox shotguns???

Try Boss shot shells. They are just over $1 a round and perfectly safe for your gun. I’m shooting 2 3/4” #5s in an old Ithaca 37

LOL.... there’s lots of combos I’ve seen out-pattern even Bo Whoop’s specs, which had full custom barrels......not that they and other older, overbored/tapered bore/etc stuff doesn’t work great to this day, but there’s so many new variables in shotshell patterns since the 1920s. 90-100% 40 yard patterns with even non tox, don’t seem rare these days at all.

https://bossshotshells.com

Free shipping on $100

BS Thanks I will look into this..

WY-
The Fox -Parker-or DG sites. I avoid auction sites on Fox guns. Even smaller dealerships are better.
I am getting a Fox XE re-furbished up in Michigan. They are good folks. Jay Schachter at Vintage Guns-Give em a call.

450 Thanks...

The 3" model 12 has a thicker barrel and Browning Invector Plus can be installed in them. Of course then back boring is required.

Poly choke can work too. I Never cared for the look of those, but dont mind them any longer. Those that used them a lot swear by them.

I would try some of these https://bossshotshells.com/ pattern excellent and can shoot 2-3/4, or 3" with similar loads to 3-1/2 shells. Plenty of penetration to fold ducks and geese.

I've been around a lot of model 12s and never experienced (or seen) the chamber issues mentioned. Maybe someone was trying to polish a rusty chamber on a duck gun?

Last night I bought a case of Kent Bismuth for $1.25 per round, though it went up a couple of bucks per box after my purchase. This morning I called my dad and cut a deal for a clean 2 3/4" transition era Model 12 with a 30" Full choke as a duck gun.

M12s had really good chokes and in my experience pattern really well so I'm not touching the choke. I plan to use the gun, so pragmatically I'm going to see if my dad will put a pad on it. Additionally, he has a wood finish he's developed over the years that is really weather resistant so I may have him do that also in that the original finish isn't going to stand up to much duck hunting. With that said, he's super detailed and has 50 years or so of stock building experience so the gun will not be "bubba'd" but be a more usable version of the original while maintaining its original form and function, which to me is OK on these old guns.

Regarding the cost of bismuth, at under $1.50 per round, it's a no-brainer to me. It should require fewer shots per bird; it's easier on teeth; and it should result in less wounded birds. For me, that more than offsets the additional cost. Take my comments regarding bismuth with a grain of salt because I've never used it and have not shot a lot of waterfowl, but that is my logic regarding using a M12, which I've used a lot on upland birds.

Well if you have a problem with your model 12 chamber it will sure show up with Kent Bismuth loads. They have very soft shell heads. Good luck . Mb

I'm sure it will be fine. I've been around dozens of Model 12s and shot thousands of Remington Express and Winchester High Brass loads with no issues.