I find it interesting that after almost 60 years "Pre-64" still carries some meaning with a few folks. No other commodity that I'm aware of has such a clean long lived break. Never really been a Winchester man, but I get the appeal, cousin (more like my second dad) had a pre-64 in.300 H&H and could shoot it as well - that is a hell of rifle. I have a 1959 vintage Model 12 gifted to me by my uncle, its also a very fine firearm. The machining on that is outstanding. I can easily see why the 870 was so much cheaper to produce (I have a few Wingmasters as well).